Gabfest Reads | When Marriage Goes Stale and Middle Age Hits Hard

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Welcome to GabFest Reeds for the month of January 26. I'm Emily Bazelon, one of the hosts of Slate's political GabFest. I'm here today with Curtis Sittenfeld to talk about her book of short stories, Show Don't Tell. Hi, Curtis. Hi, Emily. So maybe like a lot of you, I started reading Curtis's work when she published the book Prep in 2005, which is such a memorable novel about adolescence in boarding school and especially, I think, the inner life of girls. And Curtis is also the author of two novels I love about American women in politics. One of them is called American W. W. Bush, and it's a character based on Laura Bush, George W. Bush's wife. And the other book is called Rodham, and it's a kind of imagined story about Hillary, Rodham Clinton. This short story collection, I found to be like listening to an album of music where there were distinctive hits, but also it seemed like you had put a lot of thought into the themes of the book. And a lot of the narrators in this book, maybe all of them, are middle-aged people. There's even a story that's called the patron saints of middle age in the middle of the book. And one of the things that I kept thinking about was how time works and is present for these characters. It seems like there are a lot of characters who are in their middle age and mostly the book is in their present, but they are thinking a lot about past times. Sometimes their youth, but sometimes something more recent. And it's the reflection on something important that happened to them before that drives the story either. subtextually or directly. And I wondered if you were thinking about playing with time when you chose all these middle-aged characters. The short answer is yes, I was. I do, I think that the passage of time is a sort of fascinating plot where, you know, like if you haven't seen somebody that you once knew for 20 years or 30 years, it doesn't it doesn't have to be that like anything super dramatic or interesting happened in their life for it to be dramatic and interesting to see them you know just just like only the passage of you know because it's like maybe they live exactly where they lived um you know when you knew them maybe they live in a completely different place maybe they've had a lot of good fortune a lot of bad fortune a lot of like maybe you know they have like a sort of Facebook perfect life maybe they have a lot of personal turmoil but it's it's it's always interesting. I think I'm fascinated by that. And I'm also fascinated by how something can happen in our lives. And the episode or the experience doesn't change, but our perception of it changes or even like the way we perceive a person can change over time as well. And so, and it's kind of fascinating to me that like, you know, an incident can be kind of like,

preserved an amber or untouchable, but our feelings about it just by, because of all the other things that have happened to us, that we can, we can almost see it as having opposite meaning that it did at the time that it happened. Yeah, I love that. And I think one of the ways that you are playing with that theme in this book is to talk about famous people. So there's a character in this book who babysat for someone who seems a lot like Jeff Bezos. And his fame means that she has automatically changed how she thinks of him over time because she knew him as this kind of nebashy dad of a young child, of a three-year-old she was babysitting. And... just like didn't think of him much. And then the book, so the book tells that story about babysitting for him. And really it's much more about his wife and their child. And he's a kind of minor character. But then the book, the story moves forward. And of course, he becomes Jeff Bezos like. And then that changes automatically how she thinks about him. Is that. Am I onto something here or not? Yeah, no, no, no. I mean, I think perhaps if I were being careful, I might say, oh, that's a that's a mashup of several tech billionaires, Emily. Fine. But everything else you're saying is completely correct. No, yeah, it's, I mean, I also, I mean, is this, is this rude for me to ask you how old you are? I think you're like a time. I'm 54. I'm a little older than you. Yeah, you're a tiny bit older than I am. So I'm 50. And I'm sure that both of us have encountered, have had the experience. because of the kind of media publishing worlds that we live in, where maybe in our 20s or early 30s, we encountered people who have gone on to become super famous and sometimes super different. Like maybe it was a very liberal person who's now like very famous for being conservative or maybe, you know, whatever. It was like some person who. I mean, this is a hypothetical example, but, like, you know, was, was like a very, like, footloose, you know, person in her 20s who's now like a mom influencer or something, you know, like people can really reinvent themselves. And I, that's, again, something. I'm fascinated by, like, the people that I have crossed paths with who have become very famous, in most instances, I don't think I would have. anticipate. I mean, we'd have to go person by person, but, but like, sometimes you can smell that someone is so talented and charismatic, and then other times you totally can't. And, I mean, getting back to what you were saying about the story collection, almost seeming like an album, I definitely think there are recurring themes that I find really interesting, and I embrace those themes. Like, I don't try to make the stories different for the sake of being different. I kind of like when they echo one another.

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Upwork cuts down on the operational hassle by handling things like contracts and payments. Thank God that is such a hassle as someone who's had to deal with that in one place so you can spend more time running the business. Thousands of growing businesses already trust Upwork to hire flexible, high quality freelance talent for everything from one-off projects to ongoing support. So visit upwork.com right now and post your job for free. That's upwork.com to connect with top talent ready to help your business grow. That's upw-w-rk.com, upwork.com. Another theme in this book that's very present is marriage. And actually, most of the marriages seemed bad to me as I was reading through this. I was feeling kind of sorry for a lot of people in their partnerships. And there actually is a story called The Marriage Clock that in which... you present explicit advice about how to improve your marriage. And the kind of joke of the story is that the advice comes from a kind of Christian influencer who wrote a really an accidental huge bestseller based on this idea of a marriage clock and these various tenets of a good marriage. So how did you come up with this list? And what do you actually stand by on this list? Oh, that's a good question. Let's see. I'm trying to think how to answer this. I mean, I think I, I can't remember now. It's like 10 or 12 recommendations. And I think they're a little bit, you know, sexist and heteronormative in some cases. But I think I would, I think probably most of them. are good idea. You know, like, it's like, don't, don't call each other mommy and daddy or like, don't let your children sleep. I mean, I think there are probably good recommendations for the health of a marriage that for many people are probably... you know, maybe challenging to kind of adhere to. Or like, I think, I think there can be this tension where, like, what's good for the family is not good for the marriage. But, I mean, I'm, I certainly have read marriage self-help books or, like, you know, there's a lot. Like, I think that the two most prominent things that it seems like have kind of, like, you know, permeated the culture. are the love languages book. And then sort of there, I have not actually read the book on attachment theory, but like I'm very conversant in attachment theory. You might as well have like many people in 2026.

My favorite item on this list, do not engage in any form of self-grooming in front of your spouse that you wouldn't perform in the boarding gate area of an airport. I mean, but again, it's also, it's funny because I do think, like. I'm very interested in general in, and actually the characters talk about this in the sort of tech billionaire story, like the discrepancy between who we aspire to be and who we are on a daily basis. And like so many of us, know what we should do to, you know, to have strong relationships or to have like good physical health. But it's so hard. It's just so hard. Like knowing what the right choices are is different from feeling equipped to make them. And even like the person you are at like 3 p.m. or 8 p.m. is maybe less equipped to make good choices than the person you were at like 8.15 a.m. That is all fair. The twist in this story for me is that even though this list is put together by this relatively unappealing conservative guy and has this like heteronormative judge equality. It actually seems like pretty good advice. And the main character in the story, the protagonist is a studio executive who's going to talk to the influencer dude to let her make a movie from the book. And specifically, she wants to let him have a gay couple in the movie as like using this advice. And he is refusing. And so. She is definitely of the two of them, the more appealing character in the story. And yet, she, to give it away is a short story. So I feel okay about that. Spoiler alert. She's having struggles with her own husband. And they start implementing some of the advice on the list. And lo and behold, it seems to be one of the few marriages in this book that seems like headed in a rosy direction. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's all. That's an accurate summary. And so when you were taking the story in that direction, like, were you playing with this idea that maybe these conservative values have more universal validity than we might want to think? Or what were you thinking about? Well, I can say that rarely... Is that too didactic? I'm sorry. I know. Rarely would it be my goal to be like, this conservative idea out there is really legitimate. Let's all listen. I can pretty confidently say that is never my goal. But something that I think is super interesting in general is when a character in fiction is both intelligent and wrong in their perceptions about...

professionally or personally interact with a woman, you know, without anyone else. present kind of became the headline of the article, even though it was kind of a side note. And, you know, I'm very open about, I'm progressive and liberal. And I think that like a lot of people, I thought like, oh, that's really, again, sexist. Like, that's like very detrimental to, you know, women's professional advancement in his circle. And it's, again, very heteronormative. And then I thought to myself, you know, like, If I invited a man, like a married man who lives on my street, like if I said, do you want to get dinner? I think that like someone would request that I move from the neighborhood. And did you have any relationships that were like coffee or going for a run or like trading stories back and forth? I don't know. So that's an interesting question because I do think that writers. are, you know, more questioning of social conventions or social norms. And I don't know if it's because of this, but I feel like the exception to the rule is that you can, if somebody is in your professional circle, you can, like, as a writer, you know, like, it would be very unremarkable to, you know, like, have coffee with another writer, exchange stories with another writer, et cetera. But it's, but I, it's almost like, I think one, The world I live in, a married person who is not in the same profession cannot. you know, set up something or like set up a social interaction. Wait, okay, so I've, I have something, this is, you and I feel like kind of know each other somewhere in the middle of like professional and social. Yeah. And you don't know this. I'm like a week or two away from being legally divorced actually. Oh, I didn't know that. So I know, which is not, I'm not like, I'm fine. I've actually like never. talked about this is this has been a very slow process um i almost feel like you might in this moment in me answering this question it's almost like i'm having this breakdown of coherence because at this point i'm like I'm not married. Like, I'm not. And I haven't. I mean, I've been separated for more than a year. And it's very amicable. I don't want to derail this whole conversation. It's funny having this book come out, which it's like, like years and years ago, I interviewed the writer Antonia Nelson. And she was, I think, quoting a professor. And she was like, the professor had said something like, you don't have to.

almost like try to share your preoccupations and obsessions if you're a fiction writer, like, they will reveal themselves. And it's like, I definitely am like, yes, I understand that I wrote a collection about fairly, unhappily married, middle-aged people. And now I'm like, but in some ways, and also like I'm someone who like, I try really hard to make my fiction. realistic. And then people are like, obviously it's autobiographical. And I'm like, how dare you think it's autobiographical? It's a crafted work of art. And obviously, you know, both can be true. Like, I don't think any of these stories capture my marriage. But when the book came out in February, almost a year ago, I would be in conversation talking about it. And one lovely person, like a magazine editor on stage, was like, When I read these stories, I had to look at your Wikipedia page and see if you're still married. And I was kind of like, I'm still married. You know, like I, because it was just like you sort of go through a process. This is not something I'm going to like lead with like talking to the New York Times or something. It was not somebody at the New York Times who asked me that. But anyway. No, it's interesting because, you know, I wasn't actually thinking at all about your marriage when I was reading the stories. Now, though, it makes me reflect that there's a lot of both empathy for characters on both sides of these struggling marriages and a sense of hope in some of them too, right? Some of the marriages seemed like they could be on a kind of upward swing. But also, and this is something I was going to ask you about even before you told me that, I had the feeling reading that you didn't consider a struggling marriage or a decision to get divorced as a failure. And that is especially the case in the last story, which is this lovely update of your main character from PrEP, right? We get to be with Lee in adulthood, which I was totally excited about and like saved it. It's the last story in the book, but I would have saved it for the last anyway, I think. And she's divorced and she's meeting up with someone from her extremely memorable boarding school who. is also divorced. And there's this total sense of renewal and also a sense that they can, that she can reflect back on really good things about her marriage. And anyway, again, I don't want to make this track too closely to your own experience. But I would imagine that for a lot of people are divorced, there's a very welcome sort of clarity and also. you know, hopefulness about divorce that for me, it's the book. Oh, my God. Yeah, I think that's a very, like, nuanced understanding that I agree with, which is, I was actually talking to a friend of mine the other day and saying, I think divorce, middle age divorce is an act of optimism because you're essentially saying, like, I think that circumstances can be better than what they are. Like, I don't, you know, like I'm.

this is not an ideal situation, which is not, I mean, things don't have to be ideal and perfect, as most middle-aged people know, but it's essentially saying this is worth the effort and it's, you know, potentially a lot of effort. And again, I don't want to be disrespectful to my ex who's a lovely person. Like it's not, that's not, it's just, you know, like it ended up not being the right situation. But for both of us, I remember reading this, I think, in maybe Amy Poller's memoir. And that was the first time I had encountered it where it's like kind of this idea of like, you know, like I will have been married, you know, 17ish or 16ish years or something. And it's like that's not necessarily a failure at all. Like something lasting forever is not. not necessarily a success, you know, and something not lasting forever is not, not necessarily a failure. So I, and it's, by the way, also, I feel like I can almost, it's almost revealing that you're like, I saved it for last, um, because several people have been like, can I read the. the prep story first. And I'm like, okay, first of all, you don't need the author's permission. You can do whatever you want. It's a book. The rule of law no longer exists anyway. Like go for it. Exactly. Start on whatever page you choose. Yeah, read it upside down. That's funny. Yeah, I mean, just to continue with this for a few more, for one more story, the person I felt the most worried about and sorry for in this book is a narrator of a story called follow-up. Her name is Janie. And she's in a marriage that she doesn't seem to plan to leave. And I felt like what was happening in that story was it was really a story about her very powerful, good relationship with her best friend. and with her child. And so there was a sense in which the story in this, like, poignant way was about someone who is finding her most important emotional connections outside of her marriage. And that's okay. But it didn't seem like she was planning to leave her marriage, even though, like, maybe she would have been better off without that guy. I agree with everything you're saying. And I think that that's also, like, true for a lot of people. Like, I think, I mean, it's so, marriage is. endlessly fascinating to me. And it's almost like, like there's a book. Actually, I'm looking at it on the shelf above my desk. It's called, so the by the professor Stephanie Coontz, um, marriage, a history. Oh, that's an amazing book. Like every page is more riveting than the last. Um, where like, or, you know, like there's like the all or nothing marriage by Eli Finkel. Like, like these, I think the conversation about sort of what we expect for marriage now. And. how that is inconsistent with, like, you know, how it was about kind of financial and political, like, you know, consolidation of power or resources or whatever in the past. Like, that is all super interesting to me. And sort of, you know, the clash of our, of, like, stability and emotional.

like, you know, stimulation or like what, what should any of us expect? It's all, it's all like confusing and fascinating. But like something that, that again, I've thought about as a writer and a human is, like, I think you can, we could probably think of people we know and we could say. Like that marriage seems, by my measure, like less happy, less rewarding. And those people are going to stay married. And then this other marriage seems like it has some good parts. And those people are not going to stay married. And so that's one thing I think is true. I think another thing, like there are definitely clearly wonderful, stable marriages. And I think that's like a special thing that should be, you know, celebrated. I also think for plenty of people, the line between marriage and divorce is so much thinner than I understood when I was like in my 20s or 30s and that many people have like come close to divorce or, you know, have gotten divorced, but maybe if things had been slightly different, would have stayed married or something. And I think that's a really... uncomfortable thing to acknowledge, but it's true. Right. It's not actually this obvious and profound distinction. It has like lots of variables. And like maybe when you're 25, you think to yourself, like, if this thing ever happened in my marriage, like that would be like a deal breaker. And then it happens and you're like, yeah, like I'm too tired. Right, right. Or you're someone who grew up with divorce and it seems more like normal and expected to you. And so then you might be more likely or you might on the other hand resist it more. There are all those kinds of factors. Okay. I want to end by asking you about the story and the collection called White Women LOL, which there's a lot of writing about race in a kind of like. a normal way in this collection where you just sort of talk about people's race as part of their identity and part of how they're seeing each other in the world. This story is a very explicit, totally cringy incident. It begins with where this white woman named Jill, um, It sees people at a friend's birthday party who are black who she thinks doesn't belong. They're like in a restaurant they've rented out or a bar. And she says to them like, hey, I think you're in the wrong place. And then they take a picture of her video of her that goes on social media and she turns into vodka Vicky and an example of every white woman that we don't want to be like the kind of quintessential Karen. And I felt like you were really making me think about how sympathetic and unsympathetic a person like this could be at the same time. Tell me like how you came to this story and what you were thinking about with this character. Actually, I love that you said that because I think that was my goal. Like I think I was trying to make myself think about that and trying to make, frankly, other...

liberal white women readers think about sort of our complicity in in like, you know, racist society or racist systems. I mean, again, I think that a lot of stories for me start from this point of like confusion or like as with the sort of Mike Pence rule story, like thinking like, I want to be so dismissive of this, but like it obviously does exist in my life or something. Or like I want to, if I see a video of like a white woman, you know, being, being racist and like calling the cops on people of color doing something totally legal and appropriate, I want to feel like that woman and the white woman than I am are completely separate, like separate species. But like, is that. true or, you know, like, or like how do I benefit from like racism and privilege? And so I think that the story is exploring that. And again, I think that I always have to lead with like telling a gripping story, developing characters who feel real. And then I can explore ideas in that. But if I know what point I'm trying to make, I think it just, that just would create like, an annoying reading experience. It's more like asking questions than giving, giving answers. Yeah, it's a very, it's gentle and it's a shaded picture. I'll tell you my interpretation, and maybe it's not what you intended or maybe there are many different ways to take this story. I felt like I became much less sympathetic to this character as the story developed. That first I thought, well, maybe this was like sort of a genuine misunderstanding and she just kind of didn't get it, but like the consequences, the social ostracism are so disastrous for her and her kids. Like, oh, that's tough. And then there's this moment in the story where she is reflecting on other moments in which she had a reaction that... had a racial element that she's maybe uncomfortable with. And one of them is this idea that she went to a state park with her kids to go swimming that she didn't normally go to. And she gets there. And there are three other families already there. And they're all black. And then she's not sure of whether to get out of the car. And she Googles her friends to ask, like, is this really a safe place to go swimming? And I am I like. jaw dropped. I was like horrified by that. And I mean, maybe I'm trying to separate myself from someone who would, uh, commit the kind of faux pa the story begins with. But.

That was the moment where I felt like the thumb was on the scale. Like this person... You're like, okay, you are officially racist. Yeah. And then she has... You need to have the, like, the R badge or whatever. Or just like that it was beyond my ken of trying to excuse. And then the story goes from there. Like, then she has an actual interaction with this black woman who's lost her dog, which I also found totally horrifying because the white woman is trying to make it all about her own redemption rather than simply helping this person in the moment. Anyway, did you put your thumb on the scale against white women, LOLL? Um, I mean, I don't, I think I don't think in terms of my thumb on the scale. I think that I, again, I just like, like, like I feel like I tried to be very careful writing that story. I got. specific feedback around race from some black women readers as early readers, some of whom I paid to be blood. And it was actually people I didn't know, which I sort of wanted harsh feedback. Yeah. But in terms of like... putting my thumb on the scale. I mean, I do, something that's kind of interesting about fiction is, you know, in life, we could have an encounter. Like, you know, like one of us could be like in a pharmacy and we could have sort of a sweet random encounter with a stranger or we could have kind of like an icky, uncomfortable encounter with a stranger. And the thing about. I, as the fiction writer, if I'm, like, if one of us just experiences that, it just gives us this sort of ineffable emotion or something. But if I'm the fiction writer, I'm like putting it into words. And so even like when she's at the park and she's kind of like, oh, wait, is this not where white people are supposed to swim or something? That's like a very icky sentiment. But like if you, if you and. she knew each other and had gone there. And then she was like, oh, wait, like, do you think, do you think it's fine to swim here or not find to swim here? Like, it's almost like the articulation of what's underneath the question is the uncomfortable part. So it's also like, I think it's really interesting how putting things into words can make them like more vivid, more uncomfortable, like more undeniable and like how powerful language can be. Yeah, that's a really good point and obviously like a good writerly point as well. Curtis, thanks so much for talking with me this morning. Emily, thank you. You're so welcome. I'm excited for whatever you are working on next. That is it for this month's edition of Gabvest Reeds. Our producer is Nina Porzuki. Ben Richmond is Senior Director of Operations of Podcasts. Mia Lobel is the executive director of podcasts at Slate and Hillary Fry is the editor-in-chief at Slate.

John Dickerson will be here next month with another edition of GabFest reads. Until then, all three of us will be back on your feed on Thursday with a new episode of the Slate Political Gab Fest. Thanks so much for listening. This is Hannah Burner, the co-host of Giggly Squad. We could all just stay in bed scrolling through other people's vacations forever, but where is the fun in that? The best memories come from stepping outside of your little bubble and being open to the unexpected. And what better way to be open to the unexpected than finally booking that trip to Europe? You guys know I'm a Delta girlie. Every time I go, I get my Delta headphones. And when I fly to Europe, Delta treats me like a queen, and they'll treat you too. I was always a little nervous about navigating a foreign country, but then I realized it's so important to grow and see different cultures and to put yourself in different situations and Delta held my hand the whole time. Being away just helps you put life into perspective and your little worries are not so bad. Travel really is the best way to discover something new about yourself and grow from the experience. Step outside your comfort zone this summer, get some Delta headphones, and fly with Delta Airlines. They truly are the best way to get to Europe, and they just make the whole journey feel so comfortable and seamless. Go book your next chapter right now at delta.com. That refreshed you've been putting off until the right deal came along? It's here. Wayfair's Black Friday and July sale is happening now, so you can finally get the style you've been waiting for for less. Get up to 80% off area rugs and up to 60% off outdoor and bedroom furniture. Shop Wayfair's huge selection of styles and find the piece to fit your style, budget, and space. Plus, free shipping. Black Friday and July ends July 27th. Shop today at Wayfair.com. Wayfair, every style, every home.