David Axelrod on Chicago’s Mayoral Race, Democratic Party Shifts, and the 2026 Political Landscape

There's a great deal of disillusionment about the system. Generally, you have a country where 70% of people say that they feel the system is corrupt and rigged against them. And so it's a very tough environment for people who are seen as part of the establishment. Hi, everybody. I'm Fran Spielman. My guest this week is someone I have known and admired and been proud to call my friend for 50 years, 50. Yikes. Which makes both of us, above all else, old. He is one of the smartest guys I know about politics at all levels, political strategist, extraordinary, David Axelrod. Welcome back, my friend. Thanks for joining us. Yeah, you had to remind me. It's been a while, huh? It has been a while. It has been a while. Where are you coming from and going to you just got off a plane? Well, this will, I'm coming from New York from the primary coverage of the. elections on Tuesday. And I'm heading right from the airport to Wrigley Field to catch some of this makeup game with the Blue Jays. So, you know, I'm pursuing my two passions in politics and sports. And I know there are two of yours as well. Exactly, which is why we get along so well. What's life like for you these days having stepped back from the day-to-day operation of the Institute of Politics at the University of Chicago that you founded? What are you up to? How busy are you? busier than I should be. I'm still doing my stuff at CNN. I'm the chief political analyst for CNN, and I have my podcast, Hacks on Tap, a weekly podcast, which I actually recorded yesterday after the primary. And I'm still involved with the Institute of Politics, and I'm going to do some sessions on the election this fall. And I'm also involved with Arizona State University. as a professor of practice. And I do some similar things. I help them start an IOP there as well. And then I'm just speaking, you know. So I'm doing all those things. And then I'm trying to spend time with my family and my five grandchildren, which I just did, some of them. And I need to make more time to do that. You and I met each other while both of us were covering Jane Burns' mayoral campaign against incumbent Mayor Michael Volandek and then the one and only term that Jane Burns served. You went on to campaign strategy helping to elect Harold Washington and reelect and reelect Richard M. Daly and then of course the election and re-election of President Obama. I am still here covering Chicago politics and now we have a mayoral campaign.

just seven months away, shaping up to be another Donnybrook. Secretary of State Alexei Junulius, who you've known for a long time, just entered the race with 22 million in his campaign Warchest and a bull's eye on his back because he is the presumed frontrunner. How do you think his highly orchestrated campaign rollout went, and how do you assess his chances? First of all, let me say, and I'd be remiss if I didn't say it, no one has covered City Hall longer or better than you. You know, I'm really proud of you as a friend. I mean, you are an immortal when it comes to Chicago journalism and City Hall reporting, which is to me still. one of the great beats in America, you know, Chicago City Hall. But anyway, having said that, look, I think that it was a pretty robust rollout. They've obviously been planning it for a while. He, I guess they're accompanying it with advertising and so on. So he's not sliding into the deal. He's jumping into the deal. And I'm sure he knew that when he did. that, yes, he would be, you know, with the frontrunner status goes, a lot of attention and a lot of scrutiny. And, you know, I thought he handled the rollout pretty well. You know, he did interviews. I presumably did one with you. He should be on the show right now. Why isn't he on the show right now? He was on last week. But what are his strengths and vulnerabilities as you see it, David? Look, his strengths, I think, are pretty significant. And you mentioned the money, but the money, we saw an example in the Senate race, that money is not a guarantee of anything. We just saw it again, frankly, in Michigan, where a candidate spent $60 million on television and still came up short. So money is not a guarantee, but it's also very good. to have you have to have a story to tell he's got a pretty good story i mean he you know he is very much a chicago guy and all you have to do is talk to him uh for about 30 seconds to perceived that. I think he'll be a very familiar kind of character to people and they'll be familiar with him too because he's held state office in two different in two different stints for some time and that experience is worth something running big state offices and particularly the Secretary of State's office which he has from everything I can see, done a good job of dragging into the 21st century and making it more consumer-oriented. So those, and I guess the last thing I'd say is through all of that, there are two things I would say. Through all of that, he's developed a lot of relationships and proven himself as someone who can work with all the different segments that you have to work with in order to govern effectively. And the other thing is,

Fran, I've always believed that being mayor of a city. Successfully, mayor of a city like Chicago, requires big personalities. If you don't have a big personality, it's very hard to do this job effectively because all eyes are on you and the way you handle yourself and the things you say impact the whole kind of civic mood and either builds or detracts confidence from the city and so on. You know, I think he has a big personality, and I think that will be an advantage in the race. Disadvantages, he hasn't really been involved in city politics. Some of these issues he hasn't had to cope with. And, you know, there's a whole panoply of issues awaiting the mayor. And when you run for mayor, I always say that they're the two most, the two best jobs and the most difficult jobs in some ways in America are mayor and president because those are the two officials who you live with every day. I mean, people, they don't, you know, they may know who their congressman is, but they don't really know from day to day what they're doing. They know who they're senators and all. state legislators but when you're the mayor you're in the center of everything and people like franz spielman are chasing you down every day and cameras are chasing you down every day and the spotlight is unrelenting so uh no one has had that experience until they've had that experience and uh but that is true of everyone but Brandon Johnson in this race. So those are, I guess, those are things that will be seen and how he navigates all of that. But I thought the initial rollout was affected. You say he has a big personality. We know he does have a big personality on a basketball court. He played professionally in Greece. Tell us the story of the elbow that he threw at Barack Obama that prompted Obama to stop playing basketball with him. Well, I actually learned about that from maybe it was you in reading about that. But I've seen Alexi play. I don't know that I've been on a court with him, nor should I have been on a fort with him. But I know that he was a very and is.

I mean, I don't know how much he's been on the court because he blew out his knee a year or so ago. But he was very aggressive on the court, very, very aggressive, good shooter. But, you know, a guy who really took it to you on both ends of the court. And I suspect that's the way he'll be in this campaign. I think he's going to be. you know, he'll likely be an aggressive player. And in some ways, those things do matter. The big personality thing is not just about being entertaining or pleasing to watch and so on. It's about fitting the role. You're the sort of the civic leader, the civic father, whatever you want to call it. And, you know, people look to you to show strength and leadership. And so the sports... experience is not entirely irrelevant because if you're good, you're a leader on that court too. And I know just from watching them play that, Alexia had that quality. What about that elbow to Obama? What happened? Well, I don't know, but I'll tell you this. We used to play, not with Alexi, but when we were on the road preparing for debates during the campaign, particularly in the primary campaign, he always wanted to relax before the debate, and we'd find a gym, and we'd play three on three. And you're a basketball fan, I know, so you'll understand this story. There was a switch on the court, and suddenly I found myself guarding him. And let's just say he was a little more alive than me. And he zipped past me. And I played what I think in the gyms they call Matador defense. And I raped him across the nose as he came by. Right this way, sir. Right this way, sir. And he went down. And I mean, he went down. He was holding his face. And then Secret Service guys came running. And that's like. Oh my God, I broke his nose three hours before the debate. Oh, my God. Did you or no? Just a bruise. No, I did not. I did not. Although the first thing he said is, X, I got a debate in three hours and you're breaking my nose. It's just like, what is this? But so this isn't the first time that, you know. Alexi's elbow wasn't the first time that, you know, I'll tell you another basketball story about Obama. He had a lot of pros come in for his 50th birthday, and they played a scrimmage with some of his team. I don't know if Alexi was there, but Arnie Duncan was on his team and some other. Obama always had a way of arranging the teams to his advantage, but they had all these pros on their team, and Kobe. Bryant was not playing but sitting on the sidelines and first Paul and I forget who else was were the guards and they were supposed to be guarding Obama and Kobe calls them over and he says to them

You were two of the Derek Fisher, I think. So he called him over and he said, you were two of the meanest little motherfuckers in the NBA. And he says, and you're not getting within seven feet of that guy. Play defense. And they're like, I don't know. I don't know. And then he started, Obama started taunting Joachim Noah. Well, Joaqu didn't have any such prohibition. He says, okay. And he smothered Obama. completely and just completely shut him down. It's just to Obama was telling you, oh, you got the ugliest shot I ever seen. Where'd you get that ugly shot? And so Joachim wasn't playing by any presidential rules there. He completely shut Obama down. So anyway, we digress. Will Obama get involved in the mayor's race, weigh in for Alexi, whom he helped to get elected state treasure? Yeah, I honestly don't know. His habit has not been to get involved in primary elections. So, you know, it wouldn't surprise me if he didn't. But, you know, I know obviously they're friends. He has affection for him and respect for him. So, you know, we'll see. We'll see. Mayor Brandon Johnson is following a rather predictable script in his response to Junulius. He is trying to portray him as Rahm Emanuel reincarnate. Johnson said this week that the same billionaire business interests that close schools and mental health clinics under Emanuel are trying to, quote, take us back. to a time of trauma and torment, and he said Chicago is not going back. He never mentioned Junilius by name, but it was very clear who he was talking about. Is this using ROM as the boogeyman tactic going to work? Or after four years of Brandon Johnson and four before that with Lori Lightfoot, are there Chicagoans who would look back more fondly on Emmanuel's two terms? It's an interesting, first of all, let's be clear. Alexi is maybe a foot taller than Rahm. I don't know what he meant by that, but, but I. You know, I'd be interested, and I haven't seen it, and I don't know what the outcome would be of such an election, but you know, you have these sort of mythical matchups, Rocky Marciano versus, you know, Mohammed Ali and all that stuff. If you could run a Rama manual race against... against Johnson. I'm not sure how it would turn out, and I don't know that he can be sure how it would turn out. There are a lot of things about ROM that people may miss. But nonetheless, I mean, you said it's a predictable, I mean, it's a strategy. And one of the things, when you're, when you were an incumbent and you are in a tough spot, and he's in a tough spot, let's face it, you know, you need to push off of something.

You need to create an enemy of villain for your story. So maybe that's what he's trying to do there. It's very hard when you're not impossible, but it's hard when you're the incumbent to make the race so much about someone else that you win. But it can happen, it can be done. Well, Alexi gave the mayor the opening by taking on the school budget, the fact that it relies on state and city money that is not there, hundreds of millions of dollars of it. He also said he would tackle the thorny issue of school closings, half empty schools, so many of them, dozens of them. But he said he would do it with more sensitivity and with a community-based process more so than ROM used to close 50 schools in one fell swoop. So Johnson is using the threat of school closings, the threat of mental health clinics, the threat of Rahm Emanuel coming back as trying to fire up his political base in the black community. Will it work? Yeah, I don't know. I don't know whether it'll work. I think that, yeah, it was interesting that Alexi included that in his opening remarks. And I think that the message he was trying to send was that the best way to serve these young people is to be honest and straightforward about how you confront these issues. At some point, if you spend money that you don't have, there's a catastrophe at the end of that, and the people who are going to be the victims of that catastrophe are young people. So, you know, you can understand why you would take that issue on, but it's, there is a hangover from that, those school closings. On the other hand, if you. if you want to solve the problems of the school system, consolidating schools, and building new ones, frankly, I know there was a, toward the latter period of time when Forrest was the school superintendent on the west side, and I think in Englewood they closed four schools and built a brand new one. And the community ended up benefiting. But I actually thought what Alexi said was true, which is the thing, Ron was in a hurry to get that done. And those school buildings that were left behind, they had, they were an asset to those communities. And the question was how do you, how do you use these buildings as a? as an asset to the community. And I think if you talked to Rahm, he would, if he reflected on his years as mayor, I don't think he'd say we did the wrong thing closing the schools, but I think he would say I would have spent more time consulting with the community on it. What about the Broadway bank scandal about the Junulius Family Bank with alleged ties to organized crime that went belly up in 2008? Do you expect that scandal to be resurrected?

Well, anytime you're in a tough race, everything's going to be resurrected. I mean, it seems like that. It feels like that's been litigated and relitigated. And how many elections has he gone through since that time? But look, I think when you run for, you know, he's a smart guy. He knows that. when you run particularly for a high profile office like this, that everything's fair game. Everything's going to be dragged into this. But, you know, the thing is that when those issues surfaced in the past, which now is like, because he ran for the Senate in 2010, he ran for Treasure in 2006. I don't know what the year was, but he's now served in these offices. People know him as more than a young up-and-coming guy. And I think they'll judge him from their own experience and not from on the basis of these attacks. We don't even know if Johnson is running for a second term. Are you surprised that he has delayed this decision? And do you think there's a chance that he won't? I don't know the answer to that question, but I mean, on the one hand, you know, when you put out statements like the one you described, that suggests that this is a guy who's ready to run again. On the other hand, he hasn't raised very much money and he hasn't yet announced and, you know, petitioning has been going on for some time now. You would expect that he would. Listen, I don't think it's easy. Should he? What do you think? I mean, given his record where he is in the approval situation, 30% in Ohio, really. Do you think he should run? Ron walked away in the 40s. Yeah. But I don't know. I don't know Brandon Johnson very well. I've only sat down with him a couple of times. I don't know. He may be motivated differently. He may not be looking at this as a career decision in that he wants to run for something else. And he may be willing to take that on. But I know this. If you are ambivalent in any way. It's a hard job to run for it, and it's a very hard job to do. I don't know if he is or he isn't, but I imagine he's going to sit down with his family and make that decision. But you know almost better than anyone, Fran, how tough a job that is. I mean, it's an exhilarating job in the sense that you are doing things that really touch people's lives. But I'll always remember, I did a television show with Mitch Landrieu. I'll always forget, I remember this. And he just retired as mayor of New Orleans. And he was taking me down the street, New Orleans, and showing me all the great stuff that he had done. And I said, it sounds like you're going to miss this job. He said, I'm going to miss this. I'm not going to miss this.

sleeping with a cell phone strapped to me in case there was an emergency in the middle of the night. And so, you know, it's not an easy job. And I don't know whether he's going to decide that he wants to, but he's certainly, you know, he's in a tough political spot. And it would be an uphill battle for him. Yeah, how would you assess why he's in such a tough political spot? How has he failed? Well, it's a hard time for incumbents generally, but my sense of him. is that he's not really a political animal. You know, he's not, he didn't come to office. You know, he had one term in the county board. He really had spent his life. partly in a classroom, but mostly as an organizer for the CTU. And that's a really stark difference than leading a complex organization like city government and dealing with everything that comes through that door. You know, and there's some things I think that he deserves credit for. I thought Larry Snelling was a... was a very good police superintendent. That's not a small thing. I think he made a really positive difference, and that certainly goes on Johnson's resume too. But to me, he's never seemed fully comfortable with politics and the things that you have to do to get things done, to building the relationships and so on. And maybe that's understandable because it's not what he's, he hasn't been a politician all this life. He hasn't. lived in that world all his life. He's lived in a different world. Are Chicagoans ready to cast off the idea of these people who have had no experience and choose someone who has governed? Do you think? I mean, what do you think Johnson's chances are? He's likely to make the runoff with a solid base of about 30%, but can he win a runoff, which means 50% plus one? Can he? Look, he can. Of course he can, because it also depends on who's in the runoff with him and how they perform. You know, and he's not, you know, he's a, he's, he really won the mayoralty through his, did they perform? You know, he is not bad on his feet and so on, so you can make a case. He can win, but, you know, if you, if the, if you. If you were making book on the thing, you know, you'd say this is an uphill battle. You know, the odds are not necessarily with him. This is a race that's likely to be decided by progressives on the North Lakefront. Do you agree? Who has the edge there? Johnson won't at least? Look, yeah, and I think that, look, the last time he put together a progressive African-American base.

And that was sturdy enough to win a runoff, whether that base is still there for him and whether he can position off of an opponent and rekindle that base. I don't know, but, you know, it's a lot harder to run us. It's harder to run as an incumbent and as an insurgent. It, it's just... because now people are measuring you not by what they hope you'll be, but what they assess you've been. And I just don't know how those, I don't know whether all the folks who were so hopeful about him in 2003 will feel the same way. This brings us to the battle going on nationally for the heart and soul of the Democratic Party. All of the action, all of the energy, all the enthusiasm appears to be among candidates who identify as Democratic Socialists. We saw it this week in Michigan with the Senate Democratic primary, won by Abdul El-Sayed. His is just the latest in a wave of victories across the country by these socialist candidates. How would you analyze why this is happening and what establishment Democrats should do about it? Well, I think, you know, I think it's happening because there's a great deal of disillusionment about, certainly about Donald Trump and among activists in the Democratic Party about the response to Donald Trump. which they some deem insufficient. And so people are looking for someone who will be more of a fighter relative to Trump. But it's also, there's a great deal of disillusionment about the system. Generally, you have a country where 70% of people say that they feel the system is corrupt and rigged against them. And so it's a very tough environment for people who are seen as part of the establishment. And so I think all of those things are a play. Now in the, you know, most of these victories have been in, you know, very deep blue districts. The Michigan race was different, obviously, because it was a statewide race. He's a, you know, he's a very talented candidate and he tapped into. some of the sentiment that I'm describing still it was a 50-50 race and I think the lesson for him and for candidates who are running in venues that aren't

you know, deep blue is that, and for people who are more establishment, the Democratic Party needs both, okay? Democratic Party needs to unify around things that bring people in both factions together, and those have to do with the economics. I do think that... The thing that's driving so many people in this country is a sense that things are 30% more than before the pandemic began and they keep getting more expensive. Trump said he was going to do something about it. He hasn't focused on it at all. And the war and the tariffs have made it harder. And the cost of things like health care and housing and, you know, even groceries and so on keep going up and up. And, you know, people... don't feel they're getting a square deal. And that is something that is true of Democrats across the board, across the board. It's interesting to me that these candidates who are avowedly candidates who are advocating for the working class have been winning mostly by a coalition of young people and highly educated well-to-do. you know, voters on the left. And but not necessarily, I mean, Abdul El-Sayed won all the college towns going away, but you know, he struggled in the African-American community. He struggled in some of the rural communities. And those communities have to be part of the coalition. And so the job for him is to really build those bridges in the next, in the next 90 days. What impact do you think all this will have on the midterms and the Democratic Party's chances of taking back, not just the House, which seems likely, but the Senate, more difficult? Yeah, listen, listen, one thing about midterm elections is the party out of power, the party in power, I should say, the party that holds the White House has gained seats twice. since World War II. These elections are always a referendum on the man, and so he's been a man to date in the White House and people's view of their policies. And Trump is in deep trouble. I mean, we talked about others, but you look at his numbers, and you know, in Michigan, he has a 35% approval rating. That is a very heavy load for Republicans to carry into the midterm elections. And I... I think that Democrats still have a, at least an even chance of taking the Senate. I think they have a much better than even chance of taking the House. The thing, the variable on the natural, I think both those things would happen. There are two variables that I think make this maybe a little different. One is money. I mean, Trump is sitting there with.

$4 to $500 million in his super PAC. He hasn't disgorged it yet. There's some suggestion that he wants to keep it for his library, which will, I think, piss off a lot of Republicans. But if he does, and there are other huge pots of money, they will vastly outspend Democratic candidates. This would be the first time that's happened in several cycles because Democrats have been very well in fundraising, particularly small dollar fundraising in the... in the last few cycles. The second is it already is a little more difficult for Democrats because of redistricting that Trump completely. broke custom and norm and demanded that state's red states redistrict to try and grab more seats the one thing about Trump you know is that he's willing to use every tool at his disposal whether it's you know within the norms or not within maybe even within the law or not to try and win elections and you know people say well geez he wouldn't do that But I think we've tested that proposition. What impact do you think this movement, this socialist movement will have on the presidential race and who wins the nomination? Does it mean, for example, that Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez has a real chance of getting on the ticket or Zohran Mamdani even? First of all. You know, I had Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez at the university, and she gave a really thoughtful answer to whether she was going to run for president. And the answer basically was, I'm going to do what I, you know, what I think. She said, I don't need to be present. I just want to go wherever I can have impact on, you know, getting health care for people and doing. And the answer. to me, left me thinking it's just as likely and perhaps more likely that she'll run to the Senate in New York than she'll run for president. But I think you need to look at the history of presidential politics. You need to look at the map and so on. And you need to look at what just happened in Michigan. There is a progressive base within the Democratic Party. But that base, we have not really nominated a left, like a really hard left candidate in the Democratic Party in 50-something years since George McGovern. And you look at the Michigan race. No, it didn't. No, it didn't. But, but, and I'm not denigrating, I'm not denigrating progressives. You know, I actually think that they're raising some issues, particularly around economics that are very, very important and around campaign finance reform because we have a.

We do have a corrupt campaign finance system that's completely out of control. When you look at the amount of money that's being spent, the amount of dark money that's been spent, these are very valid issues. But, you know, we are a very diverse country. I mean, you saw that in Michigan, where Haley Stevens, sort of defied the polls. and came within 11,000 votes of winning. And as I said, to win, you've got to put together the different elements of the parties. So I wouldn't assume we tend to look at what's happening in any given moment. We say, well, this is what's going to define the next election. I'm not, you know, because of what happened in a handful of congressional districts and, you know, Michigan, we're a very, very talented guy won a, Senate primary, yeah. Yeah, when a Senate primary by a whisker, that it doesn't mean, that's not the re-definition of the temporary, but politicians. People in office need to hear the voices of people. People are unhappy with politics. They believe they've been dealt out of the game. They believe that there isn't enough focus on the problems that are impacting on their lives. They believe that the agenda is being set by. people who can make big campaign contributions and pay for lobbyists. And they're not wrong about those things. And that frustrates the ability to achieve big. change that is necessary on things like health care, for example. So, you know, I think there's a lot to be learned. And so while I say I don't assume that the candidate who wins is going to be someone who you would consider, you know, a stalwart of the progressive movement. I think the progressive movement's going to have some impact. And I think that people should be, that establishment politicians should understand the establishment's not trading very high right now. The presidential race is likely to include two Jewish candidates from Illinois, J.B. Pritzker and Rahm Emanuel. Do either of those men, who you know very well, stand a chance of being elected president in a year when the tide has turned against the state of Israel in part because of the Iran war and the fallout from the terrorist attacks of October 7th and then triggered the war in Gaza? or and also the fact that there is tremendous anti-Semitism in this country now. So do any Jewish candidates have a chance, whether it's Rom or J.B. Pritzker or Josh Shapiro?

I'm not willing to say that they don't. I don't, I mean, I think it's very likely that J.B. Pritzker in a pretty diverse state is about to win a big reelection. I think Josh Shapiro is going to win by a wide margin in Pennsylvania, and he wins in, you know, all in rural areas as well as in... as well as in urban and suburban areas. So yeah, I do think it's possible. I don't know what to expect. I've never been more eager for a presidential race than I am for this one because I think they serve a purpose. They help us find out who people are and we find out who we as a people are and we desperately need that now. But do Jewish candidates have a chance given the tide that has turned so heavily against Israel and Jews too? Yes, I think that, first of all, we'll see where the country is and where Israel is in, you know, there's an election there too in, yeah, that's the one. There's an election there too in October, and we'll see, because if Benjamin Netanyahu is no longer a prime minister, we'll see what policy the next prime minister of the next government pursues, I do think, and I would say this to the Israelis. tremendous damage has been done to the relationship between Israel and Americans, including a sizable segment of a Jewish community over the last several years. And there's a lot of work to be done to repair that relationship. And so, you know, we'll see how the next leader of Israel approaches this. But, you know, I'm not sure that Benjamin Netanyahu has the ability to. to improve that situation in any way. Why do you think Rahm and J.B. Pritzker are not registering on the radar screen polling wise? Well, I don't think people are focused on the presidential race. You know, I don't know that they're fully focused on the midterms yet. People are living their lives. You and I, we consume this stuff constantly. Most people are kind of focused on the thing in front of them, which is. you know how do they pay their bills what you know how are their kids doing how are their kids going to do you know so i think that's natural i i don't pay much attention to presidential polls right now i'm reminded that we have a history of electing presidents who weren't necessarily on the radar screen in terms of polling at this point before an election cycle i think we have to let the process run and you know both of them are formidable i think rams making quite a bit of uh noise and uh raising interesting ideas that but getting quite a bit of coverage right now i'm walking in the street to read with you oh you are you advised J.B. Pritzker not to seek a third term as governor and really got under his skin for doing that was there some pull up for you

No, I mean, we talked about it and I told them it was first of all my job when I'm asked questions like that as a commentator is to answer them and I did. I mean, it's just to me third terms are very difficult and that the the fruit decision would have been to free yourself of that and get on with the campaign if you're going to run. And you know, at that point I didn't know whether he was absolutely going to run. And I guess we still don't know for sure, but sure feels like it. So that's why I said what I said. It wasn't hostile in any way. It was really about what was in his best interest. That said, you know, I think he's a formidable guy. And, you know, he's, I didn't know how J.B. Pritzker would be as a governor. I didn't know how he'd be as a politician. He had never done anything like it before the one race. You'll remember that he ran was not a positive one back in 1978. But he learned from it. Yeah. He learned for Congress. And I think, I think he was a. I was very impressed by the leadership that he provided during the ICE invasion here last year and early this year. I mean, it was an eye-opener to me because that was a time when leadership was really needed and he provided it. And as I moved around the country, people asked me about him. So activists are aware of him. And obviously he has resources as well. So I wouldn't count either of those guys out. I really, I don't pretend to be smart enough to know. This is what I believe. I do believe that Donald Trump is going to define the next election because every president defines the next election, even when they're leaving. And people never look for the replica of what they have. They always look for the remedy. And the question is, what are they going to try and remedy about Trump? There are a lot of qualities of his. that require remediation. But I think all of them are in a character basket. And I think it's going to be important for people to have empathy and honesty and integrity and humility and all the qualities that Trump so spectacularly lacks. That's going to be important. Addressing this economic issue and these systemic failures. that's going to be important. And I think when you look at the things that we've been through over the last, particularly over the last two years, over the last, say, six years, you know, I think people are going to want a cleansing. They're going to want someone who will kind of give Washington an angioplasty because we've got, and we saw this when you and I were kids, kid reporters, when in 1976 in the presidential election, nobody knew. who Jimmy Carter was at this point. And he got elected. Why? Because people were so shocked at the degradation of the government and the defiling of it by Nixon. And he looked at them and he said,

I will never tell you a lie and I want a government as good as our people. And he was a Sunday school teacher from Georgia. And people really responded to that. There's going to be an element of that as well. But who fits the bill in all those ways? I think that's why we need an election. And have you patched things up with Joe Biden? He was so furious that you for saying he should get. I have not talked to him. And, you know, I know he's been struggling health-wise, and I wish him well. I know, I am, I feel my only regret is that I wasn't more vociferous than I was because I think my concerns were borne out that we needed a primary in 2024. And we didn't have it. And we didn't have it because he, I think, very tragically decided that he, like the age of 82, did serve him. You know, I said in 2022, I said, it'll be very hard to persuade people that you should be present in the United States, the hardest job on the planet until you're closer to 90 than 80. It just didn't make sense. And, you know, and you talk about the democratic establishment, I'm disappointed that more people didn't stand up who would tell me privately, well, you know, that's true, but you shouldn't be saying it. You know, we also have been saying it. Yeah. Yeah, well, good for you that you did. So as you're at Wrigley now, we got you there. Tell me as we leave, as we leave, who is the next mayor of Chicago, who's the next president of the United States? I think that in both cases, my answer will be the person who gets the most of those. Are you going to cop that on me now? Yeah, that's, I'm going to, I'm going to leave you with that thought. I'm going to go right into this ballpark, and I'm going to see if I can get the cubs back, who are trailing 1-0 back into the game. Trailing 1-0, but they swept the Dodgers, which was fantastic. Yeah, that was the greatest thing. Listen, this is the best baseball year. You know, I'm a, I'm from New York originally, so I don't have to have the tribal preferences. And I love both teams and I have students tickets on both sides of town. I'm going to see the socks play Cleveland tomorrow. And this is a great baseball year in Chicago and a wonderful diversion from politics. Yes, it is. And both teams made way, made pre-trade deadline deals to get better. Strengthen and strengthen their teams. Absolutely, yeah. Well, enjoy, enjoy baseball, enjoy baseball in Chicago. Subway series here. All right, series is what we need. All right, Frank. It's good to be with you. David XWAT, thanks for joining us. And we'll see you all next week. Beautiful.