Challenges facing Florida’s corrections system: At the top and inside the walls

This is Florida Matters Live and Local. I'm Matthew Petty. We're broadcasting from the doctor's Lorraine Rubus and Neil Frankel studio at WSF in Tampa. Now, the state of Florida has the third largest prison system in the nation. It houses over 90,000 inmates and has 24,000 employees. Florida Department of Corrections has faced a multitude of challenges in its long history, with recent staffing shortages, aging infrastructure and budget battles. You're about to meet somebody who knows all about this here to discuss his 30-year career in corrections, his experience navigating those challenges. And his next steps is the now former State Secretary of Corrections, Ricky Dixon. Ricky, thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it. No, thank you for having me, Matt. And if you've got questions for Secretary Dixon about his decades-long career in the Florida Department of Corrections or where his retirement will take him next or about the system in general, give us a call. 813-755-6-2. That's 813-755-6562. You can also email Florida Matters at WUSF.org. Well, Secretary Dixon, you began your corrections journey back in 1996. You were a correctional officer. What brought you to the realization that this was a career that you really wanted to stick with? I just kind of fell in love with the purpose early on. Now, I grew up around corrections. My father worked in corrections and ended up retiring as a warden himself. And I actually grew up living in state housing there on prison property. So I had a lot of exposure to it. Really, that exposure kind of led me down a path to where I didn't think it's anything I would ever do. I thought I would get into some other profession. And then, you know, after a few years of doing odd jobs through college and after, I just decided that I would give it a shot. I actually thought I would go to work for corrections until so I could finish my degree and do something else. But about a year or two in, I saw opportunity, kind of like the military. If you work hard and move around a little bit, there's opportunity for career growth. I just fell in love with the people and the purpose. You know, obviously the purpose kind of changed for me as I matured in the system over the years. But looking back, I don't have any regrets at all. It's just been a remarkable career and took me places that I never thought I would go and gave me opportunities to impact people's lives like I could have never imagined. So when you say you grew up on prison property, where was that? A little small town in Florida, across city Florida. There's several prisons around that area. And we still today have staff housing, a certain number of housing for staff members to have them there approximate to the prison if something happens. And so I experienced that as a young child. My father, I was seven years old when we actually moved on prison property. And I lived the rest of my days as a youth in.

You know, in all sectors of prisons, food service, health care, securities, certainly staffing, which is what I was referring to there. And I've seen staffing numbers deteriorate over the years to experiences I never thought I would see in terms of the number of staff to the number of inmates. And it creates danger for not only the staff, but for the inmate population as well. So it sounds like it's a bit different now from when it was when you started out as a corrections officer, right, that some of the problems or the pressures the corrections departments facing now weren't as acute when you were starting out in your career. Yeah, absolutely. You know, you'd have housing units with three or four officers with a few hundred individuals in custody. And today, as you've heard me say many times, you'll have housing units with one officer to a couple hundred individuals in custody in that housing unit. And to make matters worse, oftentimes that officer has less than a few months on the job with no experience. You know, as I've said many times, 70% of correctional officers in Florida right now. have less than three years experience. That should be alarming to anyone. You don't have to be a correctional professional to know that that's not good when the inmates have so much more experienced than the officer. So that's what we're digging out of. That's what we're trying to overcome. You have the best team, I think, in the nation with Richard Comfort, the now secretary and Michelle Glady, the chief of staff. And I could go on and on about the team and the expertise of the people leading it. But they have to have support. from, you know, the executive and legislative branches to give them the resources or they won't be successful. And I think we're poised and I think the story's been told that we have successive years with that support. But it's an absolute necessity if the department is going to remain stable. If you're just joining us on Florida Matters Live and Local. We're talking with former Florida State Secretary of Corrections, Ricky Dixon, about his decades-long career where he's headed next. And maybe you've got questions about how a state prisons are managed, funded or run. You can give us a call 813-755-6. You can also email your questions and comments to Florida Matters at WUSF.org. So, Secretary, why was... Did you decide that this is the year to retire? Because you talk about the prison system kind of being at a point of inflection or, you know, poised to make some good changes. But had you sort of decided I've had enough at this point? Like why was now the time to step away? Yes, it's a good question. I have a couple years ago, I thought I would continue on beyond 30 years and do more time. But it's just, you know, I had 30 years in June, almost five years as Secretary, obviously administration change coming. I didn't fear that. I think we have a good enough reputation now that the team and myself can transition through that successfully. Everyone seems to recognize the progress that's been made.

But I just felt personally for me and my family, it was a good time to transition and move on to other things. It's a stressful job. And not to say that all jobs in corrections aren't stressful. I think it's even more stressful being a correctional officer and a lieutenant and a captain and a warden and dealing with some of the things our folks are dealing with. But being in the secretary role is stressful. A lot of political pressures and different things you deal with. I think I managed it. you know, fairly well emotionally and personally. So I wasn't, you know, I won't say I was really overly stressed. It just seemed like a good time in life to, you know, 30 years in, we were doing, we were in a good place. We recovered well. And I just thought it was a good time to move on to some other opportunities and to leave it with, I don't think I would have left. If I was not so confident in the team we were leaving behind, I would have had a lot of guilt about leaving people at a time like this. But again, we have a deputy secretary at the time coming for tonight. I think, you know, along with past secretaries have built just a remarkable team. So we're leaving the state of Florida in really good hands. We've been transparent about the issues. We haven't hit them. And so that's out there in the public sphere. And again, with Richard Kumafer taking over as a secretary and all the ones around him, it's just a phenomenal team there. So I feel really good about leaving it at this time and where the future is going for corrections. We've got about a minute before we have to go to a break, but I just wanted to run something by you, Secretary. So you mentioned, you know, kudos to Ron DeSantis for his support. But at the same time, I mean, recently Ron DeSantis vetoed millions and funding for... Florida Department of Corrections improvement projects? I mean, is it a bit frustrating when that happens at the same time you're trying to put more resources into this system that clearly needs more resources? Yeah, that was unfortunate, and I don't have time to go into all the specifics about that. But to the governor's credit and understanding his position, the way that was packaged was packaged with some debt spending that he was not inclined to favor. So he was kind of put in a position. It was all or nothing, and he had to make a decision. And so he chose not to do that. And his view would be best for the state to come back and have a more methodical view about how we. We add prison beds and medical beds and things like that. So, yeah, it was one of those situations where to do one thing, you had to accept, you know, other things that just was not acceptable to him. So I understand that. We are speaking with former State Secretary of Corrections, Ricky Dixon, talking about his time at the head of the Department of Corrections. Secretary, do stay with us if you wouldn't mind. We can take your calls as well if you've got questions for Secretary Dixon about where the prison system is at and maybe what he has in store for his future. Give us a call 8137556562. That's 813-755-62. Florida Matters Live and Local continues. Stay with us.

Welcome back to Florida Matters Live and local. I'm Matthew Petty. Governor Ron DeSantis recently announced the appointment of a new Secretary of Corrections, succeeding former department head, Ricky Dixon. And Secretary Dixon is with us today, talking about his 30-year stint leading Florida's corrections department and what the future of the department looks like. Secretary, thank you for sticking with us. Want to hear from you too. Maybe you've got questions on how the correction systems works. Or maybe you want to know where Secretary Dixon is heading next in this future. Give us a call. 813-55-6562. That's 813-755-6562. You can also email Florida Matters at WUSF.org. And we've got Roger calling in from Pinellas Park. Roger, you're on the air. What's on your mind? Yeah, thanks for taking the call. A question for your Secretary Dixon. Over your tenure, over the last 30 years, have you seen a trend for the use of for-profit entities such as Core Civic or TEO group? And are you possibly looking at employment with one of these groups as your next career? Thanks for your question there, Roger. So, yeah, what about that, Secretary Dixon? Yeah, great, great question. I'll answer the last question first. No, I don't have any intention to do that at this point in my career. I've got other plans and not going in that direction. However, you know, as far as the first part of the question, there's not really been an inclination in Florida to increase private prison, you know, association with private prisons running our beds or decrease it. We have seven. So out of our 49, we have about 49 prisons right now active and an additional seven that are private. We do business with all three of those major players, NTC, CoreC, and NGO. So there's not been a push, you know, about 15 years ago, I do recall there was some consideration to really expand it. But I didn't experience that during my time. I didn't make a move ever to. eliminate it or do away with them or to increase them. And I've got to say, to be fair to them, they do a really good job. They provide capacity that we desperately need, and we do operational audits on them just the same as we do with our own prisons. And they really are, you know, speaking for all three of the ones I'm used to dealing with. They provided a good service to the state of Florida, and they have their niche that they do well with. So I never had any complaints with them. I think I'm pretty much where I saw the legislature. I didn't never move to expand or decrease them. I just wanted to come back to something we were discussing earlier, and it's sort of tied to funding. So you were all in favor of raising corrections officers salaries during your time as secretary. Do you think staff pay is still an issue now, Secretary Dixon? I absolutely think staff pays an issue. As you heard me say in the clip with the fourth largest economy in one of the lower paid states in the country, we've not kept up with competitive pay for correctional officers and not just correctional officers, but civilian staff as well throughout our facilities from support staff to classification, maintenance, community corrections, so many areas. You get what you pay for.

And you have to remain competitive, not just with other, you know, law enforcement competitors, but other, you know, industry folks that are moving into our areas as well. And that is the issue. This is a money problem. You know, in the past, it was frustrating because sometimes lawmakers would want to say, oh, it's leadership in certain areas. And certainly we always have, we can make improvements in leadership. and things like that in places. But it's, we've been so far off the mark in terms of competitive salary and still are. I'm grateful for all that has occurred, but we, we should be paying a much higher salary right now to get the quality employee and to keep them, not just to recruit, but retain. I'll give you an example, Alabama of all places, on our panhandle state line out there. They're at a much higher. salary than we are. They're like $35 an hour after 18 months, and we're sitting at, I think, around 27 or so. So it's a considerable delta there between what the salary should be and what they are. Yeah, must be tempting if, I guess, if you're a corrections officer just kind of looking across the border and seeing what they're paying there. I've got a caller in Tampa. Lucy, I believe you had a question or a comment about pay or raises for corrections officers. Lucy, you're on the air. Yes, I'm here. Yes, what's your question? And would you mind turning your radio down, if you wouldn't mind? Yes, I want to know in the state of Florida what, if there's something that can be done because of the salary situation for the correctionals and the staff. I mean, it's so unfair the way they're being treated. You know, I don't understand if it's political. And we're trying to fight crime and everything, and we need good people there. Why has this been shift apart? Lucy, thank you so much for your question. Yeah, I mean, what about that, Ricky? Because you've, I guess, spent plenty of time kind of advocating for pay, for more money for the prison system, talking to lawmakers. What part of that message do you think is sticking? What do they still need to kind of open their ears to or sort of think about when it comes to putting more resources into the system? Yes, it's not a lack of understanding. I think they get it. It's a fiscal and a mathematical problem. What works against the Department of Corrections is the number you share in the beginning of the interview. We have 24,000 staff. So we can buy everyone a new belt, uniform belt and spend several hundred thousand dollars. So if you extrapolate out a, say, $1 or $3 an hour or whatever it may be pay raise for the Florida Department of Corrections compared with a smaller state agency. You know, you're talking some of these state agencies with 2,000 or less employees. So when you, when you multiply a significant pay increase times 24,000, you're in the not millions, but hundreds of millions of dollars sometimes in funding. And we compete with so many other state priorities. So it is a matter of really doing a good job messaging. And, you know, to be not hopefully not overly optimistic. I do think the stage is set for advancement in the next few years. You know, we had historic pay increases every year for the last four or five, six years. And with the exception of this one, this one didn't go like we hoped it would. But I think the stage is said over the next two, three, four years to have continuous significant growth in that area. You know, I could be wrong. I can't predict the future. Can't predict the political will.

But it's my, you know, based on everything I know about where we are with the political climate, with the, you know, trying to avoid liability and litigation, I think the stage is set to really have some good years. And I think with Mr. Kemmer's leadership, you're going to see that. In the last 30 seconds or so, what's your hope for the future of corrections in Florida? Just we hope we provide the service that the title implies. You know, we're supposed to correct behavior and rehabilitate and change lives and you can't do all of those things and protect the public and keep those that should never get out behind the fence. You can't do all those things, you know, to the full extent, if you don't have the resources you need. The Florida Department of Corrections does not have a leadership problem. They have the best leaders in the nation. They have a resource problem. So I hope everyone continues to understand that and to provide the resources they need to be successful. We've been talking with Ricky Dixon. He's the former Florida Secretary of Corrections. Ricky, thank you so much for your insights. Really appreciate it. Thank you. Well, coming up next on Florida Matters Live and Local, we'll take a look at what women experience in Florida prisons. Stay with us. More to come in a moment.

Florida Matters Live and Local. I'm Matthew Petty. Take a guess on what the fastest growing demographic in correctional inmates is. Now, if you said women, you'd be correct with data showing women's incarceration has grown at twice the rate of men in the past decade. And according to data from the Prison Policy Initiative, the State of Florida incarcerates women at a higher rate than most NATO countries. Now, joining us today to discuss the disparities incarcerated women to face. We're joined by Tanane Jenkins, Director of the Florida Safety Coalition. Tanane, thank you so much for being with us. Thank you for having me. And also with us is Shawanda Manuel, I should say, fellowship coordinator at Pathways for Equity with the Ladies of Hope Ministries in both Tanane and Shawanda serve time in Florida prisons. Now maybe you know somebody with lived experience in Florida prisons. Maybe you've got questions about the disparities incarcerated women face. I want to hear from you. You can let us know your thoughts, questions and comments. 813-5565. 6-2, that's 813-755-62 to join the conversation. You can also email us. We're at Florida Matters at WUSF.org. Today, and I want to start with you, what exactly is the Florida Safety Coalition? The Florida Safety Coalition consists of about 100 organizations across the state of Florida, from the Panhandle to down south, Miami, Miami-Dade, who all have the same mission, and that is to bring awareness to what's going on in the Florida state prisons, revolving not just around women, but around men as well, and hopefully change some policies in regards to supervision. and in regards to prison conditions and anything that has to do with the criminal legal system. Okay, so you're taking your lived experience and trying to put it to bettering the lives of people down the track. Yes, I always say that I'm reaching back to help the person that I was 10 years ago, 5 years ago, or even yesterday. So, incarcerated women, according to the data, receive harsher punishments when they break the rules inside. Did your time kind of echo that data? Is that sort of what you experienced? I was actually at a work camp, and the work camp, I was a GED teacher. And when there were any discords or any issues going on on the compound, first of all, the work camp was meant for the women to go and pull trees in the field, pool trees and recycling. So if there was any... thing that was going on, disciplinary actions, they would either go straight to lock or they would just make them work harder in the fields. And that sounds familiar. When you say straight to lock, what does that mean? They would be put in handcuffs and dragged off and put in isolation for up to 30 days. Wow. Now, Shawanda, these kind of punishments, how would they wear down a woman's spirit? Oh, just.

Imagine yourself. You're working hard. You've already in a position that you... We're kind of cutting it a little bit in and out there. So we're going to try and fix that Zoom stream. But let me come back to you from a minute. Before we started talking to you, we were chatting with Ricky Dixon, the former correction secretary. And one of the things we were talking about was funding. And we had a comment from Mark and St. Pete, who wrote in, he thinks the low budget and the prison system has an effect on recidivism rates. And they need to put more money. and effort into fixing that. I'm just sort of wondering your experience, like what did that look like from the perspective of an inmate, the resources that maybe Florida prisons aren't getting in terms of what you experienced? Mental health is one of them. A lot of people, the prison system has become a hospital for those with mental illnesses that have mental health issues. So with the funding being cut or funding not enough, they don't have the ability to employ enough therapists or psychiatrists or psychologists to come in and help with these or assist with these, the trauma that women have faced. And trust me, there's more trauma that women have faced that have, It's the reason why they're in the prison system to begin with. Is the trauma from, well, childhood or something that happened? Looks like we might have lost the Zoom there for a moment as well. Tanane, are you still with us? Yes. Yeah, okay. Sorry, we're having a few connectivity issues. I just wanted to take a moment, if I could, indulge me here. I wanted to read an excerpt to name from something you wrote on LinkedIn recently. Quote, last week, a chipped tooth took me back to prison. When I came home, I had a chipped front tooth. I do not know exactly when it happened or how long it had been that way. I only knew that every time I looked at it, I saw where I'd been. So I got it fixed. Over the years, the filling fell out several times, and I would have it repaired again, but last week it fell out once more. The moment I saw that chip tooth in the mirror, I was not standing in my bathroom anymore. I was back in prison. It was difficult to explain how something so small can carry so much memory. That tooth represented a time when my choices were limited, including my choices concerning my own health. Tanane, just tell me a little more about that moment of reflection. I... One thing that I take pride in is my smile and my teeth. My father spent a lot of money on braces as I was growing up as a kid. And knowing that my tooth was chipped in prison and no one cared enough to fix it, messed with my self-esteem. And it messed with the person that I was. And so having that as a constant reminder.

it plays with your mental health. It really does. So that chip tooth was just a reminder until I was able to get it fixed because in prison, the only thing that they're going to do with your teeth is pull them. If something is wrong, if you have a toothache, a chip tooth, they're going to just pull the tooth. There's no real care involved in any of our health. And that sort of comes back to the point you were making earlier about prisons essentially being a hospital for folks and the point about the lack of resources for mental health that oftentimes inmates will face. I believe we've got Chawanda back on the line now. And Chawanda, I wanted to ask you, women are more likely to enter prison with a history of abuse, trauma, mental health issues than men. What's one common misconception that you wished people understood about incarcerated women? That there are just what you started with, that trauma is usually the reason that led them to prison. It's some type of trauma, whether and I agree with Trane, whether it's something in their childhood or their adulthood. It's usually an underlying reason, not to make excuses for anything, but there is always an underlying reason as to why a woman especially is in prison. Yeah. Now, if you're just joining us on Florida Matters Live and Local, we're talking about the experience of women in prison. What I hear from you? Do you have questions about experience incarceration as a woman, or maybe somebody you know is impacted? Let us know your thoughts. You can give us a call. 813-55-6562. That's 813-755-62. Or send us an email. We're at Florida Matters at WUSF.org. Shawanda, here's another stat. 62% of incarcerated women are mothers to children under 18 and are more likely to be primary caretakers than men. So how does incarceration affect these women? Oh, my goodness. I can speak for personal experience. When I was incarcerated, I was actually just gave birth to a baby six months old. And I had an 18-year-old that was just graduated in high school. So the impact affected, especially my oldest daughter, so much that she almost didn't want to go to school. It was me forcing and pushing and assuring her that everything will be all right. So to answer your question, that impact crosses across the board. It's not just the individual that's facing incarceration. It's their families, both extended and external, their whole bit. If you're there for one year to 20 years, your family is dealing with that. And then it weighs a lot on you as an individual if you're a mom that's incarcerated or dealing with that because you start to feel less than. And then now you add it on another level of mental health. So here comes the depression. Here comes the stress. There comes everything else that goes along with that. So the impact is. I can't even think of the word, but the impact is great. Yeah, and it sounds from what you're describing, like, it's really kind of this ripple effect for the families, too. I wonder, I mean, in the years since, like, what's, what have those conversations been like with your kids around your experience and what they experienced as well?

Well, fortunately, I've come from a family that we do talk. So being clear and honest about what the situation has been, how it has affected me personally, has been a great help for my daughters because they're able to see my, you know, tenacity and ability to keep pushing forward, which have... has in turn giving them the same type of strength to move forward. So I'm glad that we're having the conversations and I encourage that more with the work that I currently do is just that kind of redefining that personal development, having a hard conversation, understanding what imposter syndrome is and how all of these effects can really lay out to your family and being able to address them in order to get past it. We're talking with Tane Jenkins, Director of the Florida Safety Coalition and Shawanda Manuel, Fellowship Coordinator at Pathways for Actuity for Ladies of Hope Ministries, talking about the experience of women incarcerated in Florida. If you want to wait in on the conversation, you can join us. 813-55-65-6-2 or email Florida Matters. at WUSF.org. Today, and just thinking about the kind of the family connections and those impacts on families, when somebody is incarcerated, Florida has six correctional facilities that house female inmates across the state. And what this means is that women are more likely to be sent to a facility hours away from their loved ones. So what difficulties can that cause? Family reunification is important. Family connection is important. That's one of the main factors to reducing recidivism. It's making sure that women and men alike are connected to their families. So when you move anyone far away from their families and they're not able to reach them, that can take a toll just not on the person that's incarcerated, but also their children and their other family. Luckily, I was an hour and a half away from my home, so I was able to see my father and my uncle and my nephews and my sisters. They would come and see me. And I think having that support was something that allowed me to actually be in the position I am today. I just wanted to come back to what you were talking about before, your reflection on the chip tooth and your sense of self. Inmates in prison usually aren't permitted things like, you know, glass or full-length mirrors because of safety precautions. So how can a simple detail like that affect your sense of self during your sentence? And it's, and that's one of the things. I didn't, I don't think I knew my, my tooth was chipped before I left prison. Because of those foggy mirrors, I don't, they're like metal, not sure what they're made of. But I think going into prison, though, I know going into prison that your, your sense of self is, is being withered away, is being taken away. So.

Them taking away the way you look, the way you carry yourself, it not only affects us on the inside, but it can affect us for years on the outside because it took me almost nine years to realize that I was enough after I came home from prison. And it was because my identity was stripped. Not being able to see yourself, it's a mental game. It really is. Shawanda, what's something you learned while navigating the justice system that you wish you'd known before you entered the justice system? That there's no corrections in correction facility. There's no corrections. And it's sad. I've noticed, and from my own experience, it's been the inmates, so to say, who has been the most influential, positive, and reassuring, not the system itself. As ironic as it sounds, being in that place, while it sits you down, it gives you an opportunity to really kind of rough through the weeds and see who's for you, who's not for you. And then you recognize that your biggest strength is you lead within yourself or your peers. And to name, just to kind of close out here, for those listening, what's something you wish they could understand about what it's like to be a woman behind bars? The worst thing about the prison system isn't the prison system at all or the prison experience. It's the stigma that we have when we come home. It's the worthlessness that we have when we come home. Prison isn't like the end of our... I talk about the second sentence. Travel the country and talk about the second sentence, and that's the invisible barriers that we face when we come home. And a lot of people don't understand that when the judge sentences us, that's one sentence, but when we come home, it's another sentence. And that's why I call it the second sentence because we're living a second sentence, which is in turn a life sentence because it will never go away. We will always be labeled as justice-impacted people are a felon. We've been speaking with Tanane Jenkins, Director of the Florida Safety Coalition and Shawanda Manuel, Fellowship Coordinator with the Ladies of Hope Ministries. Tonaine and Shawanda, thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate the conversation. Thank you for having us. Up next, we're taking a look at an organization bringing higher education inside of prisons. That's when Florida Matters Live and Local continues. Do stay with us.

To Florida Matters Live and Local, I'm Matthew Petty. How do you get a degree behind bars? Well, one organization across the state is working to bring higher education to inmates inside Central Florida's prison system. The goal of the Florida Prison Education Project, or F. PEP, is to offer a high-quality undergraduate education to incarcerated individuals. It's an initiative with the University of Central Florida. The goal is to drive down the repeat offender cycle and offer those students a second chance. Joining us. It's Kerry Watson. She's the executive director of the Florida Prison Education Project. Kerry, thank you so much for being with us. Thanks for having me. Now, we want to hear from you as well. Maybe you have a loved one who's incarcerated. Maybe the Florida Prison Education Project is offering classes in their facility. Let us know your thoughts. Maybe you've got questions about this project as well. You can weigh in by calling 813-755-65-6-2. You can also send us an email, Florida Matters. at WUSF.OIG. Before we get started on this conversation, I just wanted to read something. We got this note from Devin from Sarasota. Devin thinks that they need to call incarceration for what it is, i.e. incarceration is abuse and trauma. We need to take care of people. We need to listen to women the first time around. She said she knows why many women who would be listening have not felt heard at prisons and listened to when they were being... Devin, thank you so much for your comment. Of course, you can weigh in by emailing Florida Matters at WUSF.org. Kerry, you're a professor of art history and assistant director of the School of Visual Arts and Design at the University of Central Florida, and that's where the Florida Prison Education Project was founded. How did you get involved with this? I started the program in 2017. I had taught in the Alabama Prison Arts and Education Project when I was a faculty member at Auburn University. And when I came to UCF in 2014, I found that we didn't have any similar programs in Florida. Yeah, so let me walk back a step then. What was it that got you interested when you were at Auburn in teaching inside prisons? You know, really the director of the program, Kai Stevens, came over to a faculty meeting and just talked about her program and it was something that I felt that I could do, a way that I could give back, something that I was interested in doing. And I really enjoyed teaching art and art history to the men incarcerated at Draper at the time. And it's very rewarding teaching. courses to people who are in prison. And I do believe it's the responsibility of the state and our state colleges and universities to offer educational opportunities to everyone in the state. And so I think it's part of my job. Just sort of thinking back to that first experience of teaching people who are incarcerated, like did you have some kind of preconceptions about what it would be when you went in? And I wonder how that sort of matched up with the reality.

Oh, sure. Yeah, that's a great question. You know, I really didn't have a whole lot of interaction with prisons growing up. I obviously have seen the movies that other people have seen. So one thing that struck me was that my students said they lived more, they didn't live in cells. They kind of had more of a... dorm kind of space that they lived in. So that was something that was a little bit different. And I taught in the classroom was really more like the cafeteria. And I guess I was struck by how interested my students were in the coursework as well. It's a really nice experience. And for hearkening back to something Tanin said, I found out later that Many of my, one of the projects I did in the class was have the students draw portraits. So I had taken photographs with a digital camera, went out, printed them on paper, brought the pieces of paper back in for the students to draw self portraits from the photographs. And many of them had not seen themselves in many years because of the lack of mirrors, at least in the Alabama Department of Corrections. So that was very kind of meaningful and touching experience. And then fast forward. So I taught in prison in Alabama in 2011. And then in 2017, I was at a conference in Atlanta, and they were talking about prison education projects. And someone projected as part of their presentation one of the portraits that my student had drawn. And that really kind of lit the fire under me to start something in Florida. Oh, wow. Thinking about what you're working on now, I mean, I imagine that there's probably some logistical challenges, right? Because you're teaching inside a prison, there's security sort of steps you have to go through. What are some of those challenges when you're, say, trying to bring textbooks or technology or art supplies into a prison? Yeah, so when I was in Alabama, I actually brought a portable LCD projector and my laptop and projected my PowerPoints just like I would on the outside. So it wasn't terribly different. When I came to Florida and we started the program, we weren't allowed to bring in technology, at least in the facilities that we were in. So it was really paper, pencil, chalkboard. So you kind of just went back to the basics of... and pedagogy, which I don't think is a bad thing. In fact, many on the outside are kind of going back to that with AI as well. So we're all kind of looking back to those basics. But now we recently now in our... I guess almost 10th year with the Florida Department of Corrections in re-looking at our memorandum of understanding, they're allowing us to bring in more technologies. So faculty will be able to, you know, show their PowerPoints and teach a little bit more similarly to how they might be used to on the outside. We are lucky to get a lot of our textbooks donated, which is fantastic. We also have grants that help us buy the materials. So F-PEP, UCF supplies all of the course materials required for our students. In terms of the practical

art like are students able to kind of get their hands dirty like can they work with clay or other materials or sort of paint and that sort of thing or is it is it pretty pretty basic in terms of the materials they're actually allowed to use So it's what we're able to bring in the class materials is kind of dependent on the semester and the needs and the faculty availability. So I haven't actually had anyone in ceramics yet volunteer to teach in the prison. So you'll have to get back with me to find out about clay. But we have taught painting and drawing. So we brought in acrylic and watercolor. at Sam Flax actually donated a lot of our painting materials, which was fantastic. And that was a really wonderful course. But we offer all kinds of things, you know, from physics to algebra to painting to, you know, English composition 1101. Yeah. If you're just joining us on Florida Matters Live and Local, we're talking with Kerry Watson. She's an art history professor at UCF. Executive Director of the Florida Prison Education Project. You can join the conversation too if you've got questions about the project or insights on this 813-755-6562 is the number. You can email Florida Matters at WUSF.org. So talk more if you could about sort of access to higher education in prison and the impact that might have on reoffending once the incarcerated individuals get out of prison. So all the research really indicates that offering higher education opportunities to people who are incarcerated dramatically reduces recidivism rates in addition to making the conditions within the prison safer. And so it's really a win-win. Education helps to reduce the cost. Ricky talked about cost and care. So I feel like a care in custody that education is a big part of that care. Even if it's not about getting a degree per se that is going to translate into a job, which although it does, certainly we know that... 65% of jobs require some sort of post-secondary education. So we're also helping people when they're released to get jobs. But I think also education opens your mind to a whole world of other possibilities. You know, people who read more literature are more empathetic. Like studies are done on this, right? So I think that education makes the world a better place. It helps to people, people expand their horizons. And so. We're very happy to be able to offer courses and recently started the Florida Coalition, which is kind of organizing other higher education and prison programs, not just at University of Central Florida, but Miami-Dade College, Florida State University, UF, other schools and colleges across our state so that we can have more educational opportunities to more people in more prisons in Florida. I wonder, though, I mean, when you talk about...

to people about what you do in this project, do you ever get some pushback from people who might say, look, prisoners really for punishment, people should not be given these opportunities? Like, how do you sort of sell them on the idea of investing in prison education and how that would benefit the wider Florida community and economy? You know, I feel like actually both sides of the aisles are pretty supportive of education for people who are incarcerated. Rehabilitation, I think, you know, going back for quite some time now is recognized as an important part of the incarceration process. And it does, you know, change lives. And I would say people are still serving their sentences, right? And sometimes we do get maybe victims advocates. maybe have some questions about what we're doing but i would say people are still serving their sentences this is just an opportunity for for personal betterment um so that they can have better lives if if and when they are released for people who are listening to this and wondering is there a way that they could sort of get involved and contribute what what would you say to them Yeah, so we primarily rely on faculty volunteers to teach our courses, although sometimes... you know, people who are credentialed as maybe Professor Emerita from other universities or colleges, we also enlist to teach classes for us. So you can email FPEP at UCF.edu or carry.watson at UCF.edu. If you're interested in teaching, we also accept donations to support the program. Those donations go right back into buying textbooks for our courses, the course materials that we need that our students rely on. We also have a very robust, robust book donation program, our books behind bars program. So if you're downsizing or cleaning out your office or closets or any books, we'll take anything. We'll even pick up in most places across the state. If you have boxes of books, and we make quarterly deliveries to prison libraries across Florida to make sure that even if an incarcerated person doesn't have access to a class, they at least maybe have some books in the library that can interest them. Kerry Watson is an art history professor at UCF, an executive director of the Florida Prison Education Project. Kerry, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for having me. Well, that is our show for today. Next time on Florida Matters Live and local schools starting soon here, what challenges schools may face this year. That's tomorrow at noon. Our executive producer is Grace and Doctor. Our producers are Amalie Horace and Quincy Walters. Our intern is Claire McIrola. And Claire produced today's episode. She's heading back to UCF to complete her journalism degree. Claire, thank you so much for working with us over the summer. Cheers and good luck.

Our engineers are Jackson Harp and Geo Garvin. Jackson composed the theme music. Warren Buckholt's handled the video today. You can subscribe wherever you get your podcast and watch on WSF's YouTube channel. I'm Matthew Petty. Thanks for being with us and we'll see you tomorrow.