The Politics Hour: MD redistricting, VA primaries, and one year since Trump's MPD takeover

From WAMU 885 at American University in Washington, welcome to the Politics Hour starring Tom Sherwood. I'm Kojo Namdi. Tom Sherwood is our resident analyst and a contributing writer for Washington City paper. Tom Sherwood, welcome. Hello, everybody. Later in the broadcast, we'll be talking with D.C. Police Union President Greg Pemberton. We'll also be talking before that with Maryland State Senator Cheryl Elena Kagan. And joining us first up is Virginia Senate Majority Leader Scott Surville. Senator Sarville, thank you so much for joining us. Hey, Kojo, good to be on again. If you have questions or comments for any of our guests, now would be the time to start calling 800433-8850. Send email to Koja at WAMU.org. You can also send us questions on Instagram by commenting on our post or responding to our stories. That number again, 800433-8850. Senator Sarville, we decided to start with this because we thought it would be of interest to you also, and that is the arch that President Trump is. considering or not considering has determined should be erected 250 feet tall, the memorial arch. And apparently Tom Sherwood, the National Park Service, some would say somewhat surprisingly, has said, no, this would block the views of a lot of other stuff. This monstrosity, some have called it, would be right there between the Memorial Bridge and Arlington National Cemetery, a grotesque imitation of the one that's in Paris. Trump has decided he wants to have it there, but what's been interesting in the latest development is the National Park Service, which is responsible for the land. has surprisingly, and some people say, hopefully, has now come out and said this would be a monstrosity. They don't use the word monstrosity. That's your word. That's your word. That it will interfere with the visual appreciation of all the monuments around. It would be so big. It would be larger than Lincoln Memorial. It will impose some activity overshadowing the Arlington Cemetery. It's a horrible idea. What's big about this is the National Park Service is part of the Trump administration. And I'm just hoping no one loses their job for putting out what is a thoughtful, detailed report saying, this arch should not go at this spot. Senator Sarville, your view on this? Well, Gojo, you know, I signed a letter with about 30 other Northern Virginia legislators as an official public comment to the National Parks or to the, I guess, the National Capital Planning Commission that looked at this. You know, I represent a ton of commuters that drive through this every day trying to get into Washington, D.C. When I worked in Washington, D.C. when I was younger, I used to go through there myself, I used to ride a bike through there all the time. I still do from time to time. This thing is, it is a monstrosity. There's been zero local input involved in it.

I don't understand how people are supposed to traverse, how cars are supposed to traverse the intersection. There's going to be thousands of pedestrians trying to get across the road on a daily basis. It seems to me it's gridlock. It's disgusting. The only thing that could change my opinion on it, though, is if we would dedicate it to Tom Sherwood's 80th birthday last week. But other than that... That was monumental. I would admit that. You did point out something that Tom also pointed out, and that is that it's one thing for the National Park Service to say what this would objectively cause to happen. It's another thing for Washingtonians like you and Tom Sherwood, who take it personally. And I think a lot of people will take it personally. Veterans and the families of veterans and the thousands of many women who are buried there in the cemetery. don't need to see this Disneyland-type monument on their way there. It's just horrible in any number of directions. Trump wants it. He's going to try to get it. On to Virginia politics, Senator Servil. Virginia Governor Abigail Spanberger penned an op-ed yesterday saying she's quoting here deeply skeptical about Dominion's proposed merger with Florida-based next era to create the world's largest regulated electric utility. Do you share the governor's concerns? Yeah, and first of all, I'm glad she spoke out about this. I think a lot of us are worried about it. Dominion and Next Era are telling us that it's going to save ratepayers a lot of money with the company that's their size, the largest renewable energy company in America. They'll be able to leverage lower rates and lower prices when they build things, bring a lot of additional expertise to projects. But a lot of us are concerned about sort of this in Virginia. company which is one largest companies in our state homegrown being taken over and being a small cog and a wheel of a larger corporation and whether that that will sort of take the focus away from virginia or potentially like turn virginia into like a cash cow for this company's operations and other parts of the country um we have concerns about the jobs in the state um i mean i'm glad she's speaking out and that she's uh doing a little bit on this. I mean, I think what we really need to talk about is whether the merger period is long, whether the review period for our utility regulator is long enough. It's only a six-month review period of a $69 billion transaction. And there's a lot of details that have to be gone into about this, about why it's happening. And we took testimony. I'm the chairman of the Commission on Energy in Virginia. We took testimony of an national utility merger expert who said, we need more time and we need to ask a lot of questions. And right now, six months just I don't think it's enough. Senator Servo, the governor, well, this is an unprecedented move I've read in several news reports that the governor are getting directly involved and wanting to become a party. How legally is that possible? Well, you know, in a state, in an SEC proceeding, a state corporation commission is our utility regulator in Virginia, and it's governed by three judges, and they basically have court cases. And basically anybody who's got standing is willing, is allowed to participate. So actually, any Virginia resident could become a party. I could become a party if I want to. What that does is it allows you to sit at council table and ask questions and present evidence. The attorney general already plays that role for our state. You know, he has a utility. He has an office that litigates these cases all the time. And it's unusual for a guy.

to get involved like this. But there's lots of different entities getting involved. It's the biggest, it's a $69 billion transaction to create the largest utility company in America. And I think you're going to see a lot of people intervene. I'm just politically thinking what is it she can add as governor, will she testify herself since the state, the attorney general is already doing this? Is this just a, some people would say political move for her to burnish her own image, supporting the people against the power companies? Yeah, I don't know if she disagrees with the Attorney General and anything about this, but obviously she has the perspective that she wants to bring. It gives her a bit of a soapbox to articulate, and I'm sure her legal pleadings will be reported in the papers, and so that'll be a counterpoint in whatever you read. I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if you see some legislators intervene, too. I mean, there's lots of people that are talking about getting involved in this. Let's talk elections. The results of this week's Virginia primaries came as no surprise. Larry Sabato of the University of Virginia Center for Politics says it was a big snoozer. The favorites and incumbents won. What races in the Commonwealth are you watching as we turn to November's general election? Yeah, you know, the national media made out what happened on Tuesday as being this sort of national, national moment for the anti-establishment part of the party. But in Virginia, it was totally the opposite. Nobody seemed to want to talk about that. But, you know, I think we have four seats in Virginia that are going to be very interesting to watch that could determine the control in Congress. I think Elaine Lurie is trying to win her seat back in Virginia Beach. Shannon Taylor is running against Rob Whitman. That seat has become more and more blue every year. Tom Perry-Ello is trying to come back, and that seat has a good base in Charlottesville to work from in Lynchburg. Tom's a proven established candidates and proven fundraiser. That's going to be an interesting one. And then you have Beth Macy, who's running out in... in Roanoke. She's raised a ton of money, more money anybody's ever raised, I think, in the 6th District since it's been redrawn running against Ben Klein. She's a, you know, a homegrown person with a good story to tell. And I think those four seats could really shake things up in the Virginia Congressional Delegation. And Senator Mark Warner's running for his fourth term in the Senate. He's 71 years old. He wasn't opposed in the Democratic primary. So there wasn't one. But there's a Republican, retired Army Major General Burt, Mizoo-Wawa. I'm not sure I'm pronouncing it correctly. I'm reading it. Any, I just, I know that Warner has like $25 million in his campaign account. You see any activity there where the Republicans could be competitive? Now, I mean, if you look at the long-term trend in Republican primary voting, You know, the only 3.7% of the electorate turned out in their primary on Tuesday. In 2016, 19.3% of Virginians voted in the presidential Republican primary when President Trump ran the first time. It's gone down every single year since then. 3.7% is rock bottom low. Republicans in Virginia are not energized. They're not excited. Mark Warner's going to cruise. But, you know, we need to obviously get our vote out. There's been no Republican since 2002. Got to move on.

President Trump recently announced a plan for a $22 billion overhaul of Northern Virginia's Dallas Airport, including getting rid of the infamous people movers. What are your thoughts on the project? Well, number one, I hate the people movers. So I'm glad we're talking about it. I'm the only person who likes the people movers, but go ahead. I saw somebody on Twitter said they'd make for like a good like thing to roll around town. Sure. I'm thinking to give me the thumbs down. Mobile bar. Please go ahead, Senator Servo. Well, what I'm concerned, you know, we were just talking a moment ago about how Trump seems to do everything in Washington, D.C. wants to do without any local input. And to me, this is just another episode of that. You know, they changed National Airport's name without asking us. And now they're messing around with Dulles. And I welcome the attention to Dulles. I welcome the investment. A lot of these things were already planned. They're just trying to speed them up. What I'm really worried about is how it's going to be paid for and who's going to pay. You know, I just saw something the other day that said that they're talking about the employment cost. The cost for every ticket is $90 per ticket. Right now, it's $18 a ticket to get on a plane in Dallas Airport. The national, the highest in the nation right now is $57. So, you know, it's clear to me, Trump wants everybody in Washington, D.C. to pay for his vision of an airport. And I don't know why, if we're going to spend, like, I think he just asked for $80 billion for the war in Iran. I mean, why we can't take some of that money to write down this cost of this national, of this airport, which is a federal asset so that we don't have to pay as much. I have a lot of questions to ask about that. I have some questions about the architecture. I don't understand why we need to build the world's largest parking garage. We just spent $6 billion to get Metro out there. I think there's some local input that needs to be had into this before anything becomes final. And those are the kinds of questions I'm asking. And you also make sure the passengers can still get to the place while it's under reconstruction. But let me ask before you weren't out of time. Last year, last session of the council of the legislature, you tried very hard to get a casino for Fairfax County. It died. Are you going to bring it back? That's the only question people ask me when I said you're on the show. What about the casino? Are you going to do the casino again? In November, January 27. You know, I haven't begun to plan out my legislative thing for January. I haven't even talked anybody about that in the last two or three months. I'm not sure the timing's right on that. But I'll also just point out the Washington Business General reported that part of the Dulles Airport project is a convention center in Dulles Airport. And there's always been rumors that Trump might have tried to stick one of him and their sons.

casinos in the Dallas airport, which would not require any kind of state or local approval or a license. And I have questions about that, too. A lot of questions. A lot of questions, but Senator Servil, thank you for giving us some answers. Scott Sorvel is the Virginia Senate Majority Leader. Thank you for joining us. Always good to be with you guys and say hi to my friends. Cheryl Elena Kagan, who's up next. She also hates the people movers. Later in the broadcast, we'll be talking with D.C. Police Union President Greg Pemberton, as Scott Sarval just mentioned, joining us in studio also is Maryland State Senator Cheryl Elena Kagan. Senator Elena Kagan, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks, Kojo. Great to be back. If you have questions or comments for Senator Elena Kagan, give us a call 800-433. 8850 or send emails at coja, wamu.org. Maryland lawmakers approved a redistricting referendum at this week's special sessions. Voters will decide on it in November. Why, in your view, is this the right moment for this referendum? Well, unlike my friends in Virginia, Maryland has done a thoughtful and constructive and legal process. There is no map that's going to be on the ballot. We have not crafted a map. This is clearing the way for consideration in the future. It's been approved by the Attorney General and now by the legislature and signed into law by the governor. It just makes clear that if Maryland chooses to follow all these red states that change their boundaries because of Donald Trump, starting with Texas and going on to Louisiana and Tennessee, Missouri and so many. others, that Maryland will have the option. You mentioned unlike our friends in Virginia, Maryland Republicans, however, are challenging this referendum in court. And Virginians will remember that their own redistricting referendum was overturned by the courts. What makes Maryland's efforts different? Virginia acted a little precipitously, and Maryland, under the leadership of President Bill Ferguson, decided to take things more slowly and thoughtfully. We waited until after the Supreme Court's ruling on the Voting Rights Act and after the Democratic and Republican primaries, it was then time to consider. To pull the General Assembly back together, we spent two days and almost five hours on the Senate floor debating nine. Republican amendments to the very simple bill, and it will be on the ballot in November. What will a voter see when he or she goes to the ballot? And what do you see? Is it a long, I try to find the exact... short text for what am I being asked to vote on? Where would I find that? Is it a short text? There is short text. It is House Bill 210. I'm sure it's linked on all sorts of places, including maybe on WAMU. Jenny Obama has done a great job on social media for WAMU reporting on the special session. The bottom line is...

We're going to have plain language on the ballot this year. My bill, Senate Bill 29, is finally law. And for the first time, there will not be jargon and legalese, double speak and passive voice. Voters will understand what they are being asked. You were initially against redistricting. What made you change your mind? I was against drawing maps. It seemed premature. And ultimately, because this question of whether we should even have the option, we'll go to the voters in November. It's only after that that we could then start debating. So people who say, oh, it's going to take away a Republican voice, or it'll dethrone Andy Harris, head of the Congressional Freedom Caucus. Both of those things come down to voters, whether this ballot measure, and it should be question three on their ballot, whether the voters approve that, and then... whether there's a candidate that they prefer to Andy Harris if there are new maps in the future. You were in sync with Bill Ferguson, the Senate leader who people say changed his mind in part because he faced a primary. Was that true? No. She's shaking her head. No. No. It's clear the cynics tried to make it about that. But President Ferguson wanted to make sure we did the process. accurately and in a way that would be justifiable in courts. So there was a... Excuse me, I want to ask you, has Bill Ferguson and Governor Moore patched things up over this? So I can't speak to what private conversations they have had, but they are two of the smartest, most effective Democratic leaders that we've got in Maryland, and I would say in the country. But Maryland was facing a court ruling by Judge Lynn Bataglia from... And we had to make sure to speak to that. And that's what this new law does. But the politics of that, do you think they will be back together when the next legislature is in? I think that will be in the best interest of our state. Absolutely. If the photos... Yes. Yes. If the voters to go ahead, these new congressional maps would not take effect until 2028. Meanwhile, if we pass them. If, meanwhile, Republican-led redistricting efforts in states like Texas and Florida are already in effect for this election cycle, giving them an edge. Why then is this still worth pursuing? It's challenging. Personally, as a Democrat, I would, I pray that we've got checks and balances against the crazy, inhumane, cruel, short-sighted policies of the Trump administration. To do that, we need to get Democratic majorities in the U.S. Congress, in the Senate, and the House. We'll see what the voters decide. Certainly, the Republicans have put the thumb on the scale in the states that you mentioned and too many others.

is it could only contribute one seat if we draw the maps and if they would move forward in 28 and we have a good candidate. But in the meantime, we've got a lot of strong races around the country where we hope to prevail. Well, all the national polls show the President Trump and the Republicans in Congress underwater. Yes, very unpopular. However, on the same side, there are some people who are saying that the Democrats are not that much. favored anyway, and now you've also nationally gone left, Democratic Socialists of America winning, what was it Michigan this past week? Are the Democrats going to be able to organize themselves to come together in November and take advantage of the bad polling for the Republicans, or will you be split and perhaps not win the Senate and maybe not even win the House? I hate that scenario. Thank you, Tom. I'm not going to sleep very well tonight. The most optimistic you I can think of. We've got some really talented candidates, but yes, the Democratic Party is divided now, as we always are. We're a big tent party, and big tent means diversity of opinions and backgrounds, and we've always had sort of pragmatic, progressive, mainstream progressive, which is the way I describe myself, and we've had the Democratic Socialists gaining strength. bottom line is that voters are not happy with the price of gasoline, the price of groceries, the cruel ICE arrests and people dying on the streets, law-abiding citizens who are being attacked and people who are here legally being put on planes and sent to other countries. That's just the tip of the iceberg of some of the policies that are supremely unpopular. We have a question. Matt and Gatorsburg about the possible results of your redistricting. If... Congressman Andy Harris eventually leaves office. What would you hope to see from his successor in terms of building a more constructive relationship with colleagues in Annapolis? That's a great question, Matt. Thanks for calling. Andy Harris, Congressman Andy Harris, one of my many pet peeves about him, other than that he was a leader in the January 6th insurrection and partnered with the Trump administration in the attacks on our law enforcement officers and others. He won't even join the bipartisan bicameral 911 caucus. And as you know, I've spent 12 years working to upgrade our 911 emergency systems. And Andy Harris won't even join that effort. There's so many ways that he is just an outlier and really ineffective. And once the Trump administration leaves, he will have no role to play in Congress that's effective for the state of Maryland. He is an outlier in the state. of Maryland with seven Democrats, does he in any way even talk to the other members or do they try to talk to him and he doesn't? Where is the, you know,

politics, personal relationships, and you're suggesting there are none. So, again, I'm not going to assume or presume to know what private conversations they have, but when there are letters that are sent... You know all the conversations. Yes, he does. When there are letters sent on behalf of Maryland's needs, there tend to be two senators and seven Democratic members of Congress that sign them. So the one thing, I will give him credit for one small thing, not small, when... the key bridge in Baltimore collapsed in that tragedy. meaning lives lost, infrastructure lost, economic development impact, and we needed federal support. Andy Harris did offer some support in relationship with the Department of Transportation and the White House. But that was in partnership with Governor Moore and the rest of the congressional delegation. Getting back to the General Assembly, Maryland lawmakers overwrote two of Governor Wes Moore's vetoes, including bills on shielding divorce records and requiring two members on freight trains. did the legislature reverse the governor's decision? So sometimes there's a change of opinion. There's a difference of opinion between the General Assembly and the governor. On those two, we thought that he made a wrong call. There was also another bill that we passed, that there was an error, and both the House bill and the Senate bill passed, and we had to repeal so that the voters would not. have duplicate ballots before them in November. So most of these were just clean up, and then the focus was on redistricting. Here is Donna in Maryland. Donna. You're on the air. Go ahead, please. Hi. I'm calling because I'd like to express my disappointment in the Democratic representatives who put forth a bill to have military and military production. coordination and mandated integration with the Israeli government. And I'd like to know what other members... Did that occur in the Maryland General Assembly or in the Congress of the United States? That's in the Congress of the United States. I'd like to know what people are doing to try to oppose that legislation. Senator Elena Kagan is in the Maryland General Assembly and I don't think she's in a position. to have to pass any legislation about that, but allow her to speak for herself. Nope. I think, Koja, you've got it right. Sometimes people get confused about the different levels of government. We've got federal Senate and House on Capitol Hill in Washington, D.C., and we've got a Senate and a House in Annapolis. Thanks for calling, Donna. It's a state election. The Senate majority of Nancy King lost her election. Sadly. And the person who wanted Amar Makunda, who is that? Amar is a first time king. candidate. He was dogged and very hardworking. And losing Nancy King is really a loss for the county, for her district constituents, and for the state of Maryland. There were tributes to her on the floor of the Senate that were so heartfelt, so authentic, and very bipartisan. She's represented Montgomery Village, Germantown, Gaithersburg. Yep. But do you know Amar? I did. He and I had a very nice two-hour conversation over lunch at...

conversation. Private conversation. And Amar is showing a willingness to learn and listen, which is smart, because he doesn't have legislative experience in Annapolis. So he will hopefully, you know. We're going to take a short break. When we come back, we'll continue our conversation with Maryland State Senator Cheryl King. And then after that, we'll be joined by D.C. Police Union President Greg Pemberton. If you have questions or comments, give us a call now at 800-433-8850. You can send us questions on Instagram by commenting on our post or responding to our stories or send email to cojo at wamu.org. I'm Kojo Namdi. Welcome back later in the broadcast. We will be talking with D.C. Police Union President Greg Pemberton. Right now, we're continuing our conversation with Maryland State Senator Cheryl Elena Kagan and inviting your calls at 800-433-8850 or send email to cojo at WAMU.org. Will Jawando win the Democratic nomination for Montgomery County Executive earlier this summer? You supported Andrew Friedson. What are your takeaways from Joando's primary victory and have you spoken with him since then? Yeah. Thank you. So, let's see. I strongly supported Andrew Freitzen, as did seven of the eight senators, Montgomery County senators, who endorsed for county executive. We thought he'd be a great partner and an effective and thoughtful leader. But the voters chose Will Juando, a seasoned Montgomery County council member who has represented the entire county. He will be a little more of a continuity. from the Mark Elrich service of eight years. That has caused some problems. Mark has not been an effective liaison to Annapolis. We are really hopeful that county executive Juwondo will show up in Annapolis and be our partner in many ways. And we're meeting with him soon and look forward to strengthening that relationship and that tie. Your opinion, Mark Elrich, is well known. And he of you, let me ask you about the Triple Crown. The governor, Wes Moore, has spent $85 million to keep the racing in Maryland in the Preakness. But it looks to me like the Preakness is going to be shut out of the Triple Crown may be no more despite what the governor has done. Well, it's still a work in progress a little bit, but pushing back a week and changing from a Saturday to a Sunday will give the horses some time to rest so that hopefully there can be a triple crown that will be significant. But the bottom line is there's a history in Maryland of horse racing, and that's an important part of our economy. economic development. And a lot of people come to Maryland for horse races. The problem is the Belmont, which is the third leg of the Triple Crown, is only 13 days later. Horse trainers are already saying that they may have to skip the pretenance to be ready for the Belmont.

Anyway, do we have time for one more question? Very important question. I thought you were continuing to have this horse racing discussion because you know I know absolutely nothing about it. It's a major industry for the state of Maryland. And because they're not part of the Kentucky Derby group with six races, new championship series and all that, it could diminish them. When we get to it, I want to ask about Scrabble. Before we get the Scrabble, Montgomery County lawmakers voted for an 18-month moratorium on data center development, which everybody seems to be talking about everywhere. And some state lawmakers want to limit data center projects. Would you support a statewide pause until guardrails are in place? You know, so data centers came through my committee, and there were a number of us who were very reluctant, had a lot of questions about the economic impact. Ultimately, the governor and others thought that the economic impact the jobs, the prestige, and we are so close to DC that we are a great location. Loudoun County, Virginia has been overburdened by them. They're having buyer's remorse. They are making a fortune. They are making a fortune, but they're having huge problems. And there are residents are rising up around the country to say no. So it'll be interesting to see the debate. Senator Karen Lewis Young has been very outspoken from Frederick and others. We'll see what comes before us in 2027. It seems that all these urban areas have these data centers when don't like them, but are getting the tax. benefit from them in some of the rural areas which would like to have them for the tight or I'm not going to get them because everybody's pausing them now. It seemed to be a big. We were running out of time. You said there was something you wanted to talk about and I forgot what it was. Me was. No, he thought he wanted to talk about. Oh, I was just going to talk about the Freedom Caucus frivolous lawsuit, but we're good. You want to talk about what Scrabble? Colorado to us. You're a big Scrabble freak. Yes, I'm a nationally ranked Scrabble player. Are you number 48? I saw the listing from there. Oh, golly. No. So we went to Iowa. That's where it was this year. Iowa, Colorado. What's the difference? Last year I brought it to Maryland for the second time. I'm hoping that they'll come back in 2027 or 28. And we bring hundreds of national scrabble fiends. And I played 39 matches of scrabble. It's exhausting. You beat two people from Maryland or so. Oh, did I? Yes, I saw the list, but we don't have time for it. What's your favorite Scrabble word? Oh, man. Well, I played zestier, which is a word that everybody knows, and I think it was 110 points, and that helped me win a closely contested match. Mine is ADZ, but that's a whole not. Yeah, that's a good one, and it takes an E at the end, if you don't know that one. You beat Ted Guest of D.C. I did. And Carol Tilson of Silver Spring. Wow, two good friends who have participated in the Scrabble Club locally. Charleston. Tuesdays. Tuesdays in Chevy Chase, D.C.C. Cheryl Elena Kagan is a Maryland state senator, including Gathev, and Rockville. Senator Elena Kagan, thank you so much for joining. Thanks so much, Kojo. Free letter word, bye.

Joining us in studio now is Greg Pemberton, who is the D.C. Police Union President. Greg Pemberton, thank you for joining us. Are you chairman or president? I hear it both ways. It used to be chairman. We recently became our own lodge, so the terminology has changed to president now. Okay. He's the head honcho. 800433-8850. If you have questions or comments for Greg Pemberton, you can send us an email to cojo at wamu.org. You can also send us questions on Instagram by commenting on our post or responding to our stories time show with something that you and just about everybody else in the district. should be interested in, and that is in an unusual move, Anna Blacksburn Rigby, the chief judge of the D.C. Court of Appeals wrote an op-ed in the Washington Post talking about how the courts are at their breaking point in terms of staff and in terms especially of security. Yes, and she wrote that with Milton Lee Jr., who's the chief judge of D.C. Superior Court. They run the court system in the District of Columbia, and they say... they are coming to a standstill, that they're being overwhelmed by the number of cases that the U.S. Attorney brings, that they're having problems with security of the judges, as we've seen around the country with judges. They're having problems with cyber security. Their budget has been stuck for like four or five years in a row. And they say that if we're going to have public safety and justice, we've got to have courts that are able to work. Now, there was some new judges appointed to the D.C. Superior Court recently, but the budget, the facilities, the ability to do these cases, they say is bringing the courts to a standstill. And I guess that means that your members should also be concerned about this, Greg Pemberton. Well, I know there's vacancies on the court, and they probably are overwhelmed, and they certainly should have all the security they need. But it's news to me that they are not being able to keep up with the caseloads there. That's not... I have a bunch of numbers, but the caseloads have risen dramatically, and they've been unable to do it. President Donald Trump reportedly considering... firing U.S. attorney for D.C. Jeanine Pirro because she is refusing to press vandalism charges related to the reflecting pool. As the D.C. union president, what is your working relationship with the U.S. attorney for D.C.? Yeah, well, that case in question is actually a Park Police case, so I don't have the exact information about it. But I can tell you that most of the prosecutions that come through Ms. Piero's office come from our members. And it has been a night and day change between her predecessor, Matt Graves and just to put some numbers on it, put it in context. Matt Graves was no papering, 67% of the cases that we brought him. That is that... Explain to our listeners what no papering means. Sure. So when an officer makes an arrest...

he has to bring the paperwork for that arrest to the U.S. Attorney's Office the following morning in a process called papering. And then the prosecutors decide whether or not they're going to actually charge the person with those alleged crimes. And under graves, he was no papering 67%. Two-thirds. Yeah, of the cases that we brought him. Piro has turned that on its head, and she's now papering 95%, meaning that she's no papering only 5% as compared to her predecessor, 67%. And on top of that, she's secured, I think, something like 6,000 guilty pleas just in the past year and another 250 guilty convictions in front of a jury. And these numbers are unheard of, at least in my tenure, 20 plus years as a detective on the police department. From a police perspective of prosecuting the crimes for which people are arrested, that's important. But this past week, the... Ms. Piro has run into trouble with President Trump over that reflecting pool thing. You know, she came out guns, Malaysia, and how she was going to charge on that case, the three-time Olympian who was accused of ripping up part of the waterproofing of the reflecting pool. And she said she didn't have enough, she didn't turn around, said she did not have enough evidence to go forward. President Trump says that she choked. and that she folded like an umbrella and he's really mad at her. I'm sure, and I'm going to ask you anyway, do you think that's reason enough for the president to fire her? I don't want to base my opinion on her on that case because I don't know anything about it. It's a park police arrest, so I don't have any information about it. But what I can tell you is... The news media has been all over it. You don't have any official information about it. Indeed, the New York Times says documents and interviews establish how a first-time contractor was paid millions of dollars to apply a novel solution designed by a golf club manager to a national landmark. But it's important because you like whatever her public... policy politics reputation is she's delivering on what you think she needs to be doing will you be worried if she leaves uh certainly i think she should be judged on the overall work that she's completed not this individual case i mean i the the success that she's had in prosecutions is remarkable she's and particularly she's re uh propped up a new tool, which is to charge felon in possession in district court. Under federal law, it is illegal for a convicted felon to be in possession of a firearm. It's something that we haven't ever used before, and she's using it. She has something like a 40% increase in charging that. I get the emails. I get the emails a lot, and you see a lot more of them than we did under Mr. Graves. That is a remarkable tool to make sure that people who are walking around with illegal firearms are held accountable, and she's been using that tool, which is. something that we've been grumbling about for years. And so I think she's done a phenomenal job. I think that's how she should be evaluated. Can we go to... It's been almost one year since President Trump took control of the MPD and sent National Guard troops to the city. You supported these actions then. A year later, do you still think the president made the right choice?

Absolutely. And let me first say that I don't think that we should have to rely on the National Guard or federal agents to help us do police work. I think that Metropolitan Police Department should do 100% of the law enforcement work that's there. Allow me to interrupt for one second because I was telling Tom Sherwood earlier. I went to hear the D.C. crime writer George Pelacana speak about his new novel recently. And he said the thing that people do not point out is that D.C. crime levels, violent crime and murders. are way lower than they were in the latter part of the 20th century. In the 1990s. In the 1990s. That they're lower than they were in the 1990. Well, yes. That's when we had like 400 murders a year. I mean, the 1990s, I think, are the pinnacle of crime in the entire history of the district. As Tom said, we were having multiple years of 500. Partly the reason we got the control board. I'm not sure that that's a good... stat to to compare it to. I'm not sure that puts us in a good place. But what I will say is that, you know, crime has been spiking. In 2023 was a remarkable year. Horrible year. It was the highest in something like 20 or 30 years. And then in 2024, crime allegedly falls off a cliff. And it appears that crime doesn't exist. However, our members knew better. The calls for service were up. The 911 calls were up. Overtime was up. Shot spotter information, which detects. gunshots all over the city was up and and we knew that there was not that precipitous drop in crime as being reported by the department. And ultimately, you know, through a number of investigations that the department started on its own command staff, we started to learn that there was a pattern of practice and a culture within the command staff to lie and manipulate the data. And so... The Inspector General has just come out with the latest out. I think there have been now three reports. And the Inspector General report says that the slip shot, you didn't use that word. I did. Prolonged systemic breakdown. Started in 2013, which I was surprised to see that. But you were a year ago, speaking of anniversaries, a year ago, you were banging the drums saying these numbers, while they may be going down, they're not going down like they're reporting. And you've proven to be right. How does that respond? How does that react to people when you go around? The officers, did they thank you? Are they glad that you broke this open? Yes, officers were very frustrated. because they would go to a crime scene. They would be investigating a violent felony and then, you know, you'd have some management officials show up on the scene or call them on the phone and tell them to take a report for a lesser offense or tell them not to take a report at all. And if you barked about it or you got upset, then they'd threaten you within subordination. And it was a terrible environment. It was a terrible culture. It's not a way to run a police department. And at the end of the day, the victims are the one that suffer the most because they don't even have a shot at getting justice when their report isn't properly filed or isn't even taken in the first place. Yeah. The recent Inspector General Report talked about the prolonged systemic breakdown that led to error.

in crime and the report said the department closed an independent unit in 2013 that checked crime reports for accuracy would you support bringing back this unit the chief has said i'm sorry excuse me i've started the answer for him the chief says he's going to bring that back i believe that that's in the process of being propped up as we speak i think there are some documents that are going to be published if they haven't already been published making that unit effective and we fully support that there should be absolute correct data coming out of the department and if they're needs to be, you know, audits of that information, then yes, we should absolutely. Well, this is the big issue. Janice Lewis George is the Democratic nominee for mayor. She's the pew. She's going to win in November unless something extraordinary happens. I'm told you've met with her. I think the fire department union set it up because a year ago, you and Janice didn't even want to be in the same room as I understand it when you were here. Well, maybe she didn't want to be. I don't mind being in the room with anybody. Okay. But she's now. acting like she's going to be the mayor, even though she can't officially say that. But what did you guys talk about and did that open doors or did that solidify your concerns dealing with her? Where are you on that? Because she's going to pick the next chief. Jeffrey Carroll's on the interim. And she says, I will pick a new chief. So where are you with Janice Lewis, George? I did meet with her. We had a lengthy meeting. I was almost two hours long. I would say it was positive. I felt good coming out of that meeting. Obviously, we have some skepticism given her positions that she's taken on the council over her tenure on the council, which have been advocating for legislation that hamstrings officers, that reduces staffing, that exposes officers to liability for administrative criminal. in civil, you know, liabilities, even when they're doing their job right. And so we've had some frustrations about those positions that she's taken. I think where we are is that we're hoping that there's some movement back to the center on public safety. I think we've seen the results of pushing the envelope that direction over the past six years. Going back to the massest area of 2020, of defund the police, I think people are starting to realize, wake up from the hangover of that. What about the uniform shortage? You're about 800 officers short of what you used to be, and you would like more officers. Does she say anything about that? I mean, there was not a lot of substance in terms of planning. I think this was a meeting where we had an opportunity to lay out our concerns and the current status of the department and try to make some suggestions about how things should be done moving forward. There wasn't a lot of, you know. Open some doors. Let me try to be a little more specific. What's the problem with hiring new officers for the Metropolitan Police Department? Is it a budgetary problem? Is the lack of availability of clients because so many police departments around the country are recruiting? The issue is that there is a smaller pool of candidates to become law enforcement officers nationwide, particularly here. But the Metropolitan Police Department does not have a great reputation for being a good place to work.

because of the policies that the council has passed, particularly in the comprehensive policing and justice reform act. It has exposed officers to all kinds of liabilities, even when they do their job right. It has eliminated a lot of the protections in the disciplinary realm, and it has created an environment that members perceive as unfair and inequitable. And nobody seems to want to correct that. I think the strongest recruiting tool that any law enforcement agency has is their own employees telling their friends and family and equate. is to apply there. That's not what our membership is currently doing because they're frustrated with the fact that they work 1.2 or 1.3 million hours of overtime every year, that their days off are canceled, that they're consistently working doubles and that they're exposed to a management that can discipline them however they want without any accountability. Are you still having more resignations and retirements than you are recruiting each year? Yes. So we have a net loss of about 110 or 120 officers every year, which is how we've gotten to that 800 vacancy number that you pointed out. And that number continues to drop month over month because we're hiring less people than are separated. You know, the progressive view of policing is that police officers are not... oriented towards supporting people, reducing tensions, and they say you've got, you can just do a better job. I do hear people in the middle who say, I'd like more police on my street, but I also like them to perform well. Can we reach that point? Not enough officer friendlies. And not cooperating with ICE, which is another whole issue about the executive order you guys have to work with ICE or not work with ICE. That really, people are telling me, hurts the reputation of the D.C. Police Department working with those guys. Only got about five minutes now. Well, I think that goes back to my original argument that the Metropolitan Police Department should be doing 100% of the law enforcement in the city. And that should be done at the direction of the mayor and under the oversight of the council. That is the proper framework for any law enforcement agency in any municipal area. That's not what's going on right now. And the reason it's not going on is because we've suffered these losses of 800 members. And the police department is completely dysfunctional without those personnel. So you have... White House intervention. You have Congress intervening. You have people paying attention to what's going on here and trying to move the levers of how law enforcement operates and adding this federal assistance. I agree that people in the city should decide how they should be policed. I think that's correct. In order to do that, the Metropolitan Police Department has to have the right amount of personnel, which we do not. We are very far from that right now. Here is John in Mount Rainier, Maryland. John, you're on the air. Go ahead, please. Thank you, Mr. President of the Union for braving the Politics Hour. I have a big specific question about a heavily militarized federal presence today in northeast, approximately at the intersection of Montana, and I forgot the other cross street, but there was a heavy presence, including...

Two armored MRAP vehicles, helicopter, National Guard, U.S. Marshals, Park Police, SWAT, terrorizing the neighborhood of that area of northeast. You're asking Greg Pemberton if he knows specifically about that deployment? Yes, but also, how does he feel that kind of thing affects the relationship between residents and the NPD? There you go. Here you go, Greg Pemberton. Listen, if they were up there to get a bad guy and that bad guy was heavily armed, then, you know, we're trying to get. those people out of the neighborhood and get them charged and booked on whatever the allegations are against them. I'm not really sure without knowing what was going on up there. I understand it can be alarming to have police presence at that level. But at the same time, if you have somebody in your community that's committing felonious violent crimes, we need to go up there and we need to get them. And that's unfortunately sometimes how we have to do it. I've talked to at least 100 of the many national guardsmen in town just stopping. welcoming them to the city, asking where they're from. But what I don't really am not clear on, what is their police authority? I was told that if a National Guardsman sees something that appears to be illegal, that their duty is to call the police. Is that right? They don't really have the policing powers that you as a detective or a uniformed officer has. That's right. I mean, their law enforcement abilities are limited to civil disturbance, right? That's typically what they're used for is to be called out in times of civil unrest. So no, they're not going to be, you know, conducting a robbery investigation or, you know, being involved in some sort of pursuit. They're there for a law enforcement presence and they're there to be able to alert law enforcement officers to come and assist. I think they can detain people if they observe criminal activity if someone's in a face. In ice. Let me take Lebriscollegra in Washington, D.C. You have about 30 seconds. Go ahead, please. Yes, hi. I have a question for Mr. Pemberton. In 2024, it was discovered that you and U.S. Attorney Jennifer Kirchhoff had polluted to deliberately obfuscate in high exculpatory evidence in the case of the mass arrest of... With one minute left to grow, I'm really afraid, Greg. You won't... I understand. I can... We won't be able to get to that. Why should anyone... You got about 30 seconds left to respond, Greg Pemberton. There was never any investigation that found that, that found that there was any misconduct there. I think there's a disciplinary investigation by the D.C. Barr about the ethics of some decisions that were made in court. But what you're suggesting is just not true. That's all the time we have. Greg Pemberton is the D.C. Police Union President, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you, Kojo. Thank you, Tom. As we just spoke about next week, marks one year since the National Guard deployment began in DCWAM. You will continue to look at the ways the Guard's presence has impacted the city. Stay tuned for more if you missed. Any of the show this week, you can catch a re-airing of the Politics Hour tonight at 10 p.m. You can also listen to the Politics Hour anytime on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or anywhere else you get your podcast. The Politics Hour will be off the next two Fridays as we take some time for our normal summer hiatus. The Politics Hour will be...

back live and local on Friday, August 28th. Tom, what are you planning to do during that period of time? Absolutely nothing. Nothing. Nothing with a no-G on the end. Works for me. Until then, thanks for listening and stay safe. I'm Kojo Nand. The Politics Hour with Kojo Namdi is produced by Matt Blitz. Our supervising producer is Kayla Hewitt. Our engineering team this week is Kellyn Quigley and Kenny Pierrod. Our phone screener is Ruse Secular. For past shows, visit the politics hour.org.