Mark Carney’s trouble building consensus on major projects

Uncover from CBC Podcasts explores a different high-stakes true crime and justice story each season. From the nexium sex cult to the satanic panic of the 1980s, or the investigation into a serial killer targeting gay men in the village. Find Uncover wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC podcast. Hello, I'm Neil Kirksel. Good evening. I'm Chris Howden. This is as it happens. Tonight. Advance notice, emphasis on no. Before the Prime Minister even arrived at a special chief's meeting today, the Assembly of First Nations had already voted to oppose Ottawa's pipeline agreement with Alberta. Staying power. After getting hundreds of thousands of signatures, Alberta's forever Canadian petition will be submitted to the provincial legislature. The man who started it says he hopes it will put any question of separation to rest. Peacework. The U.S. delegation presented Vladimir Putin with an amended peace plan today. A journalist tells us that a workable deal with Russia is still a long way off, but we could be seeing the beginning of the end of the war. Stealing themselves. Christmas will be pretty bleak this year in Sioux-St. Marie, Ontario, where hundreds of steelworkers are facing unemployment in large part because of Donald Trump's trade war. Waiting for exhale, biologists have come up with a new way to do health checkups on North Atlantic right whales by collecting the spray from their low holes. And no more Mr. Ice Guy. An outdoor rink in Italy is built around bronze of Luciano Pavarotti, so he appears to be knee-deep in ice, and that is getting a chilly reception from the legendary opera singer's widow. As it happens, the Tuesday edition, Radio that guesses someone got cold feet.

Because it's asking a lot of this very, like, obviously not easy relationship that the Alberta government and the federal government have navigated. I think it does emphasize particularly the importance of the elements of the MUU. that require consultation and of course as the prime minister somewhat said this this afternoon the free prior informed consent of indigenous people so i think there's hopes that the uh building canada act will be honored by the political statements but um of course the resolutions sort of speaks for itself and it's asking for the withdrawal We talked about the consensus. I mentioned the consensus. There's the very first vote of the day. We've also talked on this program about the major projects that the government, federal government has highlighted. There are different feelings about those kinds of projects between various First Nations, including in British Columbia. The fact that there was so much consensus on this, what did that suggest to you? I think it shows to me what the Prime Minister was actually speaking about immediately in the quote, which is that there is a lot of caution about trusting what the Building Canada Act represents. And the fact that the MOU specifically suggests that an oil pipeline to the BC Coast should be referred to the Building Canada Act and the major project office, I think is something which resonates. to a lot of First Nations and that it seems very much like the government is doing what it always has done, made decisions to the exclusion of participation of Indigenous people despite the beautiful political commitments. Do you think that that kind of unity that we saw in that first vote, in your first vote, on that resolution, that kind of unity will be a focus over this meeting for the next three days once the Prime Minister has left? I certainly hope so. I think there is definitely a feeling that there is an opportunity with this Prime Minister. There's also, I think, a feeling that the only way that First Nations are going to see significant change is if we stay united on issues and don't allow ourselves to be divided. Why do you think the First Nations who might have been excited and signing on to other projects have backed you up so clearly on this resolution? What was at the heart of it, you think? Well, I mean, I think the few other major projects that have been approved at this point have much more significant First Nation participation. And some of those projects are indigenous led, which is the opposite. of this oil pipeline proposal where it's somewhat the conversation is happening to the exclusion of first nations it's also like a subject matter which bc first nations have historically been very strongly in opposition particularly in the north coast so like the last time the northern gateway was proposed 130 first nations signed the fraser declaration which opposed the northern gateway project so there's a history of unity

None of what you're saying can possibly be a secret to the federal government. So why do you think they played it this way with this MOU? Well, I mean, there's obviously a lot of political pressure, I think, from the Alberta Premier. And there's a desire, I think, for Canada to be united. I think just at this point, like the way that the Alberta, Canada, MOU was developed, was not done like with a sense of unity or togetherness. It seems to have happened, like, much to the exclusion of. the province of British Columbia and all the potentially affected First Nations on a potential corridor. It's difficult, I don't think anyone can like definitively read the mind. of Prime Minister Carney. If you know, as you've said, that it's not likely that the MOU is going to be cancelled or withdrawn is the hope from where you sit at least in supporting this resolution today to remind them that you're there and that if they were, if this was a strategic play, a political play, that it was perhaps in your view of miscalculation that they should be aware of. Yeah, no, I mean, I think it's going to that this oil pipeline proposal is going to be sort of history repeating itself. I think BC First Nations will be united. It will be like firmly opposed. There will be many court cases. There will be new and innovative. I think strategy is sort of trying to deter proponents in a weird, in a strange way, maybe it's a unifying issue regardless of whether a pipeline ever is built. I thank you for this. I'm glad we could speak. Yeah, thank you very much. Merle Alexander is a lawyer from Kittesu Haye's First Nation. We reached him at the Assembly of First Nations Special Chiefs meeting today in Ottawa.

On one side of the table today, U.S. special envoy Steve Witkoff and the U.S. president's son-in-law, Jared Kushner. On the other, Russian President Vladimir Putin. And between them on the table was an amended draft of President Donald Trump's Ukraine-Russia peace plan. The original proposal was disparaged by Ukraine and its allies, since the plan demanded that Ukraine's seed territory and cut the size of its armed forces. Today's mission to convince the Kremlin comes two days after Ukrainian delegation met with U.S. representatives. to make some key changes. And before the meeting, which wrapped after five hours, President Vladimir Putin dialed up the pressure. Shashank Joshi is the defense editor at The Economist. We reached him outside London earlier today before the talks ended. Shashank, what is your read at this stage about what happened in that room at these talks today? Well, I think that what would have happened is that after weeks of America working with Ukraine and with Europeans to try to take the original 28-point peace proposal, a very... pro-Russian document and turn it into something more acceptable to Ukraine and perhaps something more acceptable to Europeans, I think the aim today was to see how would the Russians respond? How would they respond to a proposal that looked very different to the one that was quite favourable to them, that was published perhaps 10 or 12 days ago that was leaked? How would they fare with the loss of paragraphs and provisions that they wanted? And would they walk out the room? Would they continue to talk? Would they ask for changes? And we don't know the answer to that yet. But we certainly know the signals the Russians are sending are fairly skeptical. What do you take away from what Vladimir Putin was saying earlier today, you know, claiming that Russia had seized control of Pukrovsk, something the Ukrainian military is denying? and accusing Europe of essentially sabotaging American efforts at peace? Well, it signals that Russia is on the front foot on the battlefield. They are advancing. They are taking territory. Yes, it's relatively slow. Yes, it's at great cost, but they are moving forwards. And therefore, that Russia is trying to signal that it feels it has the upper hand and therefore that any settlement... ought to reflect its advantage. Now, you know, in Russia's terms, that seems to dictate a view that Ukraine should essentially sign a surrender document, which is not commensurate with the scope of the gains on the battlefield. But I think what they're trying to show is, look, if you don't do a deal now and submit to our terms, you will end up having to do a deal that's worse down the line because we will simply take this territory by force. Now, of course, Ukraine will respond to that by saying, you know, well, Russia will have to bear enormous costs. And they can't keep doing this forever. And they will also suffer costs in terms of strikes on their oil refineries and their boats at the Black Sea, as we've seen in the last few days. But really, that is what Russia is trying to signal. We have the advantage. A deal should reflect our advantage. And in terms of the broader strategy for Russia.

Obviously, they're going to say they want everything in that peace plan. They want everything that they want and they don't want to say that they're going to say okay to losing anything. What parts of that peace plan are non-negotiables for the Kremlin do you think? What will they refuse to seed? Well, I think a lot of focus is on territory, you know, give us the rest of Donetsk province, which would effectively complete Russian control over the eastern Donbass region. But I think if you reflect very hard on this... The Russian aim in Ukraine is not really a few kilometers of territory here and there. It's about the future of the Ukrainian state. Its strength, its capacity for standing up to Russia, its independence, its alignment with the West. And therefore, when I look at it, I think the non-negotiable conditions are less about territory. They're much more about, for example, will Ukraine be barred from joining NATO in the future? Will Ukraine be barred from having an armed force that is too large? Will Ukraine essentially, you know, be... barred from certain sorts of cooperation with the West hosting European troops on its soil. That to me is much, much more important to the Russian side. Do you imagine a scenario where Ukraine would say okay to not having the freedom to join whatever group it wants to? Actually, yes, I can. I can imagine that. It's not easy to swallow for Ukraine, but actually they know that NATO membership is not going to happen anytime soon because there's no consensus in the alliance. And, of course, America at this point would veto it. So they know that. So therefore, they might not like to admit it, but would they object if a deal was otherwise acceptable to saying that in a peace document? Perhaps not. Similarly, what we saw in the original peace proposal, the 28-point proposal, was a cap on the size of Ukraine's army that was about 600,000. Now, that's been raised in subsequent discussions. But actually, if you, if you, you know, brutally honest, Ukraine's peacetime army... probably cannot afford a force of 600,000 anyway. So, you know, the principle of the cap may be very unpleasant to swallow, but actually Ukraine was never going to reach that threshold anyway. So for all those reasons, yes, I can see Ukraine accepting these things. But for Ukraine, of course, what they need, what their bottom line is, really robust security guarantees from the West. And I think that that is still one of the biting points for Volodymyr Zelensky and for Ukraine. Does an agreement, does peace feel any closer based on all of these signals we've been talking about and what you're seeing from this meeting at this stage? Does it feel closer?

Yes, it does feel closer. I think that, look, we're having peace documents traded back and forth across the table. Volodymyr Zelensky is personally involved. Vladimir Putin is meeting Trump's envoy. That is something that wasn't really happening last year. So it's hard to avoid the conclusion that we are in a more positive place, even if... There's profound doubts and skepticism and alarm over the content of some of these things. But what I would say, you know, is that right now, Russia isn't going to accept terms that are acceptable to Ukraine. And Ukraine, while struggling on the battlefield, isn't struggling so badly it feels that it needs to surrender. Therefore, I don't think this is going to end anytime soon. But I would describe this perhaps as the beginning of the end. And it wouldn't entirely surprise me if over the next six months, especially if Trump... is willing to apply some pressure to Russia and be seriously involved in this rather than walking away again like he did earlier this year, that we could find ourselves really with much more progress than many people expect. Shashank, I appreciate this. Thank you. You're very welcome. Shashank Joshi is the defense editor at The Economist. We reached him outside London earlier today. After today's talks ended, a Kremlin spokesperson said, quote, we are no closer to resolving the crisis in Ukraine, and there is much work to be done, unquote.

North Atlantic right whales don't have noses. If they did, they'd always be getting water in there and they'd have to blow their noses, but they also don't have arms. So to breathe, they use something much better suited to the circumstances, blowholes, through which they inhale and exhale, sending some spray out. Inhale, exhale, sprays out, and so on. After watching this for quite a while, scientists thought, hey, Maybe we could do some science on that. And so they did. Recently, a group of biologists used a high-tech new method to collect some samples and discovered that whale breath could hold some clues about whale health. Carolyn Miller is a biologist at Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution and the lead author of a new study on the findings. We reached her in Woods Hole, Massachusetts. So Carolyn, what is the best way to collect breast samples from a North Atlantic right whale? Right. Well, that's a really great question because we can't exactly ask a whale to provide a nasal Eric Swalwell, can we? I mean, that would be hard. And, you know, getting close to the blowholes of large whales is difficult and dangerous and actually really stressful for the animals. So instead, we flew a small, quiet drone about 10 feet above the surface of the water. And when the whales came to the surface to breathe, we collected the respiratory droplets in the exhaled breath. And we collected those on a sterile petri dish attached to the drone. So it's kind of like when you blow on cold glass and you see all those droplets, that's basically what we're collecting with the drone. And do you get a sense? Obviously, this is not as invasive as it could be or dangerous. Do you get a sense of any sort of reaction from the whales? No, we haven't had any visible reactions at all. They continue to feed and swim along. And any mishaps with the drones? Drones are very useful, certainly, especially to pull off something like this, but their spray is certainly not timid. So any mishaps along the way? You know, we have had a drone go in the water, but nowhere near the whales. It was just sort of a drone had a little bit of a problem, but no mishaps over whales or even near them. And how many were you, how many times did you send drones out? How many samples did you collect? For this study, we collected more than 100 breath samples, and that was from 85 different right whales. And over how, what kind of a time period? We started this in 2016, so a long time period. And when did you decide when to send the drones out? How did you spread it over that time? So basically we work every spring season in Cape Cod Bay. It's an area where a lot of North Atlantic right wells come to feed. And so we started going out to do the breath sampling. We also pair that with some sampling with another drone that is used to measure their length and the width of the animals, or how fat they are. I know you didn't get up close with the whales, but you did get up close with the petri dishes. Is there a smell to the samples?

Not necessarily to the samples we've collected, but you definitely can be downwind when you're on the boat of a very smelly breath whale. So you've experienced it. You have experienced it up close. How would you describe it or does it differ from whale to whale? Yes, it can differ from whale to whale. Sometimes it doesn't really smell very much, and other times I don't really know how to describe it is just kind of stinky. Like wretch-inducing stinky or just a minor nuisance? Just a minor nuisance, in my opinion. Yeah, you're used to it now too. But these samples were crucial for you. What did you and your team want to look at? Okay, so we wanted to look at the different types of bacteria in the breath of the whales. And we were looking to see if those different types of bacteria were related to five different ways of measuring health of the whales to see if we could find another non-invasive way of studying the health of these animals. What kind of clues do those breath samples offer? We found the types of bacteria are different in thin whales compared to fat whales. The thin whales tended to be associated with bacteria that were related to pathogens in other animals. And the fat whales were associated with bacteria that may reflect a diet high in fat. And a diet high in fat is really important for whales. Fat is the primary source of energy for whales. And it's what they need to survive. We've spoken on our show over the years many times about how right whales are doing, the health of the general population. Where do things stand right now in terms of that population? Right. I think the most recent estimate was three, a little bit more than 380 whales. And it was up 11 whales from the year before. And this, within 2025, we haven't seen any severe injuries or deaths. So we have hope that they, that may be. the population might be on an upward trend. And how will this information help keep that upward trend going? Basically, these whales are endangered in the population size is extremely small. They spend a lot of time in areas where they encounter multiple threats from human activities. including entanglement and fishing gear and being struck by ships. So for this population to recover, we need to reduce the number of deaths, but we also need to promote their health and reproduction so the population can grow. So it's critical that we have ways to monitor the health of these animals so that we can inform meaningful policy to foster their health and to ensure their conservation.

Carolyn, I appreciate this. Thank you. Thank you. Carolyn Miller is a biologist at Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution and the lead author on a new study of whale breath samples published in the journal International Society for Microbial Ecology. She's in Woods Hole, Massachusetts. Etiquette can be tricky. Sometimes it's hard to get the tenor of a thing just right. Take the Italian city of Pessero. They wanted to pay tribute to the late legendary tenor Luciano Pavarotti who owned a villa there and was an honorary citizen. So they commissioned a life-sized statue, which now stands in the square across from the city's operas. It depicts Mr. Pavarotti with a bright smile and arms spread wide as if modestly accepting a standing ovation, his trademark handkerchief dangling from one hand. And unlike a lot of other, bronze tributes, this one has been well liked, including by Nicoletta Montevani, Mr. Pavarotti's widow. So far, so good. But now... Things have taken a turn. The city recently constructed an outdoor ice rink in the very same square, and because that rink surrounds the statue, it now appears as though Mr. Pavarotti is standing knee-deep in ice. His raised arms now kind of suggest, he's saying, my friends, please pull me out. I cannot feel my shins. And Ms. Mantovani doesn't like that. She says she's angry and upset at the decision to ridicule her late husband, and she was not mollified by the mayor's suggestion that skaters could high-firm the statue as they go by. In the cold light motif of day, the mayor has apologized but insists, quote, there was no intention to disrespect Maestro Pavarotti, unquote. Still, here's hoping that next year they just move the rink or Mr. Pavarotti to a whole new aria.

We're going to take a short break now when we return. Alberta's former deputy premier says he's glad his forever Canadian petition is now in the hands of the province, but he hopes Premier Daniel Smith won't force a referendum. And bonfire for the vanities. One man's contentious vanity license plate reminds us of the quixotic battle of Lorne Grabber, who fought all the way to the Supreme Court for the right to put his last name on his plate. Stay tuned. I'm Chris Howden. And I'm Neil Kirksell. The news can be hard to keep up with, but sometimes I want to spend a bit more time with a story that's made headlines. That's why I produce CBC's Understood podcast. We've covered the rise and fall of Sam Bankman-Fried, the scandals surrounding Canada's very own porn hub, the controversial leader of India. Each season of Understood is a short, four-episode immersive experience with a host who knows the story best. Follow so you never miss a season. Some people say the party's over. It's time to split. But others insist it's just getting started and they're adamant that everyone should hang out together and see what happens. Today, elections Alberta officially verified a petition entitled Forever Canadian. It was created to counter the Alberta separatist movement and it garnered almost 440,000 signatures. The ball is now in the Legislative Assembly's Court. A committee can either table a report on the policy proposal or recommend it go to a referendum, which is something petition organizers would actually prefer to avoid. Thomas Lukasek is a former deputy premier of Alberta. He started the petition. We reached him in Edmonton. Thomas Lukazik, why do you think you ended up getting the numbers that you did? Well, first of all, thanks to our volunteers, you know, in an unprecedented way, we have managed to get over 6,000 canvassers collecting these petition signatures across Alberta day in and day out throughout the summer. So credit really goes to them. But also, it's simply an expression of how proud Albertans are to be Canadian. In less than 90 days, we collected nearly half a million signatures. Have we had more time, or was this petitioner? online, that number would be in millions. A vast majority of Albertans never questioned being Canadians. The only question they really have is why are we even talking about this? So do you feel at this point for you that this is mission accomplished? You've gotten attention for the issue or are you hoping for something more concrete at this point? Well, I hope that it is a mission accomplished, but I am not naive. Premier Smith, Premier Daniel Smith, has one of two choices to make right now. She can do the right thing and she can call a vote in the Alberta legislature and have all elected members of the Alberta legislature vote on my question. Do you agree that Alberta should remain in Canada? And without any doubt, this would pass by a vast majority. And it would put the whole issue of separatism to bed. And our provincial government would be able to focus on their provincial mandates. And we can continue building this goodwill that is now starting to show between Ottawa and Alaska.

The MOU that was signed with Prime Minister Carney. this conversation, this dialogue can continue. Or the Premier can do what I consider it to be the wrong thing to do and do what's politically expedient for her, appease her separatists in her caucus and in her party, and call a referendum. Now, we all know, because we all experienced the Quebec referendum, that referenda are very divisive. We already have Albertans family members not talking to other family members. We know what happens to investment. a good reason why Bank of Montreal, Royal Bank and Sun Life Insurance all are headquartered in Toronto, not in Montreal anymore. You know, they all left. So she can undermine the investment confidence in the province and have a referendum. I certainly hope that she chooses to resolve this in the Alberta legislature. The Premier Smith was asked yesterday if she thinks the UCP is now a separatist party. She said, quote, no, given what she said there and that new budding warmth, that relationship, as you mentioned, with the Prime Minister. In the aftermath of that MOU, which way do you think it will go? Is there a third avenue? Well, I don't see a third avenue. And, you know, you have to be very careful analyzing what Premier Smith does and what she says. What she says right now is correct. You know, she proclaims not to be a separatist. But at the same time, she has just relaxed the rules of the citizen initiative legislation. to help separatists file a pro-separatism referendum question. She just sought intervener status in the Court of Kings bench arguing that the separatist question should go ahead. So what she says and what she does doesn't always exactly align. We know that she got herself into a little bit of a political quagmire. Because if she wants to do the right thing for the province and if she wants to foster this dialogue with Prime Minister Carney, calling for a referendum that could potentially divide Albertans and Canadians is not a wise thing to do, both pragmatically and politically. But if she doesn't call a referendum, which... her party members demand, she will get herself in trouble and even jeopardize her own leadership position. We know that this party dispensed of Jason Kenney quite quickly and they could do the same thing to her. Is there a world where the legislative assembly can just do nothing on this or do they have to do something?

You know, technically there is, but I don't think politically that is a viable option when you have nearly half a million of Albertans asking you to take a position on this issue and put this issue to bed so that we don't continue dividing Albertans. And so it doesn't become a distraction in Alberta politics doing nothing won't be an option. And second of all, even though Premier Smith says that her United Conservative Party is not a separatist party. At her convention this last weekend, where thousands of members paid over $1,000 to be at this convention when the issue of separatism came up, I would say roughly two-thirds of her members stood up and applauded the idea of separating from Canada. And they demand a referendum. So does she have the political will to say no to, I would say, majority of her party members right now? And some prominent... members, including cabinet ministers who want a referendum because they are expressing a positive sentiment towards separation, it really would put her leadership on the line. You mentioned the disagreements even within families on these kinds of issues. Do you have people in your own life that you disagree with on this? Oh, I do. You know, we, my wife's uncle. We all have that uncle. We have that uncle in our family where, you know, we're having a discussion. How is this Christmas going to go? Because we know that this topic will come up. And, you know, one. additional positive thing about this forever Canadian movement that I was so privileged to lead was that it really was a healing mechanism in Alberta, especially small town Alberta, where people who are pro-Canadian were afraid to speak up and wave our Canadian flag because they thought that their neighbors are separatists. And then they realized that their neighbors actually came and signed the petition and that there are more of them and that we are a majority in this province. The most common thing I heard was thank you. for giving us our voice back, all that could be jeopardized and lost if we go into a referendum. Thanks for this, Thomas. I appreciate it. Thank you. My pleasure. Thomas Lukazek is a former deputy premier of Alberta. We reached him in Edmonton.

Last night on the show, we heard from two delighted white caps fans about the news that the Vancouver soccer team is headed to the MLS Cup final for the first time in its history. Now, if you two are a fan of the white caps, you no doubt know full well when that game against Inter Miami will be. Chances are you've got the whole day mapped out already from the pregame to kick off to the celebratory drinks. He will surely be enjoying afterwards. But as one of our guests last night reminded us, not everyone is keeping track of the white cap schedule the way diehard fans like her do. Here's Laura Yazegian telling Neil about the moment the team won its semi-final game against San Diego. It was fantastic. It was such an electric atmosphere. And we were just, I mean, we all couldn't speak the next day. I think we were all just cheering so much. And all those poor folks who came to just. have dinner at the restaurant. We're very surprised at what was going on. So if you're one of those people eating dinner at a white caps bar without knowing what you're in for, you should know they play in the final on Saturday and not on Sunday, as we mistakenly said last night. We regret the error. And assume the Vancouver white caps won't make any such mistakes in the big game on Saturday.

Layoffs are always terrible, but a thousand layoffs in a community of just 72,000 people, just weeks before Christmas, that is a whole other level of terrible. And that's what Sue St. Marie, Ontario is grappling with today after local employer Algoma Steel issued 1,050 layoff notices yesterday, citing U.S. tariffs. It remains to be seen whose jobs will be affected and when, but Bill Slater says all his members are feeling the blow. He's the president of United Steelworkers Local 2724, reached him in Sue St. Marie. Bill, what kinds of calls have you been getting emails maybe as well from your members just over the last 24 hours? Most of the calls and emails are members trying to find out how they fit into the future as some people are being laid off and some people will maintain their jobs. Right now, Algoma has only put out which jobs will be eliminated, but they haven't identified the people as we go through the collective agreement and do the bumping process. How are your members holding up, given all of that? I think there's a lot of anxiety and people just trying to deal with the fact of not knowing whether they'll have a job at the end of March or not until more information comes out. Algoma, as you know, is citing two main factors. One, a long-planned transition towards electric arc furnace steelmaking. That was always going to result in some job losses. The other is what CEO Michael Garcia described in a statement today as, quote, the tariff shock, which he says forced the company to accelerate that transition. How does that explanation sit with you? Yeah, I can't argue with any of that. It is unfortunate that we were going to the EAF, which would have been, you know, it's six and one, half of a dozen of the other. The EAF would have provided stable employment for some people moving forward, but not as many people would be employed in the future. It's to move towards a greener steel product. I think our... whole industries, doesn't matter if you're in wood or what kind of industry you are in. The movement is to move to greener products and have less environmental impact on our world. But we were hoping with the long-term... change to that that we would be able to have other changes in what we do in the steel plant to provide jobs elsewhere and to diversify more before all those layouts happened that tariffs have come in and affected it and moved all that fast forward and was not given the time for the company to diversify

It was just a few months ago, the federal and provincial governments issued a $500 million loan to Algoma Steele to help it, quote, manage the financial impact of U.S. tariffs, unquote. Do you think that loan should have come with more protection for workers? We asked for it. I personally asked that it would come with more protection for workers. That unfortunately was outside of my control. All I had the power to do was ask. Of course, anything we can do to get more protection for our workers, that's what our job is as union officials. Our colleague Catherine Cullen spoke last night with Sue St. Marie, Mayor Michael Shoemaker, about what these losses will mean for the city and also the damage done by the U.S. President's tariff talk in the trade war in particular. He's a little bit of what he said. The trade negotiations right now are not working. And so whether that is a changing tactic of doing something differently to get a trade deal done or to hit them with counter tariffs more aggressively. I think whatever the current system is needs to be adjusted either more aggressively in a response or to get a trade deal over the finish line because the status quo threatens the viability of the steel plant entirely. What would you like to see? from the federal government in response, obviously, to what is going to happen by March, these layoffs, but also to prevent further layoffs in the future. I think we need more protection from other countries selling their products in our country. So if we're held to a certain standard of our pollution and our health and safety and all the other things that make producing things in Canada more expensive, that those values need to be added on to. commodities coming into Canada so that we're at least at a fair playing field and we're able to compete for those markets. There are counter tariffs in place right now. What more would you like to see on top of that to send that message? I don't know. I think they're all good moves with the counter tariffs and with the by Canadian sediment that's going around. And I think that's all good. But a lot of these projects that are going to need steel, unfortunately, are in the future. And if they start today, it still takes a long time before the need of steel and other products and the actual fabrication part of it begins. And so to move that timeline up somehow because the longer that takes, the more damage it does and the longer effects will be on our community and our workforce. Industry Minister Melani Jolie referenced in Ottawa today, you know, that upcoming procurement should give folks the sense that, quote, there can be more jobs that come back to Algoma and steel plants across the country, unquote. Does that give you hope for your colleagues?

There's always hope, but my concern is that we live in a... a small town in northern Ontario that has no close neighbors with any industry. So that members that are affected by job losses now, will they be here and will they be able to take part in a turnaround when that happens? I'm worried about how it affects our community and what state our community is in if it's able to. respond when the time comes. In the meantime, and amid this uncertainty, what kind of support do you need for your members right now? Right now we need to be able to ensure that they can find employment and be able to put food on their tables. You know, I would rather see help coming in a way that incentivize keeping jobs in Sioux-Saint-Marie and in the community rather than putting money into training individuals that will have them leave the community and go elsewhere to find employment. Bill, I appreciate this. Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you. Bill Slater is the president of United Steelworkers Local 2724 in Sioux-St. Marie, Ontario.

Jimmy Jay has been ordered to turn in his plates. Since the 1990s, the Camloops man has proudly displayed the vanity license plate 50. But now authorities say that is a reference to law enforcement, and that is not allowed under provincial rules. Here's Mr. Jay talking to the CBC. Well, I had received a letter last Monday, my CBC saying that they're recalling my personalized license plate because they can no longer have anything reference to law enforcement official. But my license plate is just as 5-0. And I've had it for nine and a half years, so now they want to recall it, you know. And I just don't want to give it up, eh? Well, I used to be an auxiliary police officer back in the late, or actually in the early 90s. It just meant something to me. And I also loved the TV show Hawaii 50. I am a forklift operator, and actually my forklift was number 5-0. That's the number I chose for my machine. So that's just a coincidence. I was totally caught off guard there, totally surprised. Now, that story, of course, reminded us of the most famous license plate dispute in the history of our nation, one that almost made it to the Supreme Court. From 2017, here's former, as it happens, host, Carol Off. How do you pronounce your last name? Grabber. Grabber. Okay. Yeah, not like, you don't break it down, you don't go grab her. It's just grab her. Okay. And this is on your license plate, grab her. Yes. What is the problem that the Nova Scotia government has with your name on that license plate? Some woman called in and stated, I can't pronounce the word, what's the word called? I think, okay, I think I've got it here. She said, this is a quote from the government, that, misogynistic. Right, that's it. Right. That's what she complained about. And that she said that it was promoting violence against women. Yeah. And the director of a motor vehicle decided in her wisdom to take my play away saying that it's a socially unacceptable slogan. So slogan, but it's your name. Yeah, they're saying my name is a slogan. What did you say? How did you react when you got the letter from the government that you can't use your name on your license plate? Well, first of all, I thought it was a joke. And then as I got reading the letter more, I said, this is not a joke. And then I became very angry. And I had to call Mr. McDonald if I had any... complaints or whatever. So I called him, and I tried to explain to him a complaint after 27 years, and he wasn't saying nothing. And I kept talking to him, and I said, are you still there? And he goes, mm-hmm. I said, well, I'd like to inform you that my son lives in Alberta, and he has it on his vehicle. He had no problem. He has no problem. I said, if you go to...

Newfoundland, for example, I said there's public signs of towns like dildo, heart's delight, come by chance. And he turned around and said to me, you're in Nova Scotia now, you go by our rules. Uh-huh. And I said, oh, is that right? Well, you have a nice day then, because I was ready to blow up. What did you want to say to him? Tell them right where to go. It seems that the woman who complained, I guess this is what's based on, she didn't know or wouldn't know that was your last name, right? Well, ma'am, like I say, when you see a personalized plate, what would be the first thing that would come to your mind? If I saw a plate that said grab her on it? But you know it's a personalized plate. I wouldn't know if I was looking at this license plate that it was your name. All right, but then you could turn around and say, well, could it be his name? I could? You know, maybe I should ask somebody, see what they think, or maybe if they've seen it like, okay, Tim Or maybe I'll wait until the person comes out. I never had a person come up to me and complain. Never. From our archives, that was Carol Off, talking to Lauren Grabber. After that interview, Mr. Graber fought in court for years, relenting only when the Supreme Court of Canada declined to hear an appeal of his case. I don't know.

People in parts of South and Southeast Asia are reeling after three simultaneous cyclones, which killed over 1,300 people and left a trail of destruction. More than a million people are now displaced, and Sri Lanka was hit especially hard. Days after Cyclone Dithwa tore across the island officials are saying the flooding is the worst in decades. The government has deployed the army to reach people stuck in flood-stricken communities and to find hundreds of people who are still missing. Prashan Boniface lives in Caduela, Sri Lanka, a city on the outskirts of the capital, Colombo. He says 150 homes in his area have been destroyed by the floods. We reached him at home. Prashan, I know it's very late there. It's the middle of the night. But when you were looking outside earlier today around your home, what do you see? For the moment, it's very quiet, but around some areas, I mean, in my particular area, there are some people still who are surrounded by flood. In some roads, there are up to 20 to 25 feet flood. Totally their houses, we can only see only the rooftops. How many homes have been lost? What are your neighbors doing? They have moved to their relative homes and some people to the church and some are to the temple. There are around 150 houses got destroyed from this flood situation. And how is your home? I'm okay. My house is okay. My house is comparing to their houses, I mean a little bit of height. Yours is higher. So do you think that's what protected you? Yes. At what point, you know, as a storm approached or when it hit, Prashan, did you realize that this was different and it was going to be very serious? It was three days back because suddenly the water level came up. There were no time to move people suddenly and there were no time to prepare. You have been going to all of your neighbors with your six-year-old son beside you, I know. What are you hearing from them about what they need right now? They also not expected like this. In 2016, also in this area, but they were not... expected like this because this time it's too high and very wide area. This area is near by Kalani River. So at this time the disaster was much more than in 2016. Why was it so much worse this time? In 2016, not this much of rain and It was only two or three days, as I remember. At this time, there were a whole one week rainy and very windy. So there was a week of rain and wind. And then three days ago, the flood waters, the water started to rise. Yes. There's been some criticism of the leadership of officials in Sri Lanka for not warning people sooner that trouble was coming.

What do you think about the government response? My point of view is government officials, they should also take the responsibility for this situation because if they have informed properly to the government, I believe they will inform the people. Likewise, the people also should consider when the government given announcements and the warnings. Did you get warnings? Did you know it was going to be this bad? I mean, not like this, but they have warned after rising the voter levels, the police and the media. They have warned, like, please evacuate, but many of our people. They might have not things like this kind of disaster. You were not in an evacuation zone? Was your area under an alert? I'm also in evacuation area. But the people who are in low ground level, very near to the Kalani River, they have not moved. Not all, but some of them. So where are your neighbors staying right now? Now they're slowly moving to their houses. They're cleaning. They're starting, started their cleaning process. But there are some... 50 to 25 families like still in the temple and their relative homes. Right. So they have somewhere to stay for now. What about rebuilding all of those homes? How long will that take? It will take some time to rebuild their houses because there are some houses 50% got destroyed. because of the flood. Military officials, you know, teams that are out there to try to help people in the affected areas. Are you seeing that kind of help where you are? Yeah. In my, near my area, there were some Navy and police, they have helped some people. But in my village, there were... one or two times they came here and they have warned and they have put a boat service to the people. What is the boat service? Where does that take them? They're taking people to the secure areas. So they have taken some people to the school also. I know you haven't gone back to work in several days. When do you think life will start to return to some sort of normal for people there? In here, it'll take one and a half week to get started again. But some areas, it'll take two, three weeks to start their lives again, I believe.

What do you tell your son, your six-year-old son, about what has happened? I'm sure he has lots of questions. Yes, I'm always telling to him because these all are people, so we have to help them. Like those kind of things. Yeah. How are you trying to help? We were distributing. food to them and we distributed some detergents and washing powders and some clothes. Just from your own house? My own and we collected who are not affected at the moment in our village. Prashan, I appreciate this. Thank you. Thank you very much, ma'am. Thank you. Prashan Bonifas lives in Caduelo, Sri Lanka. That's where we reached him earlier today. Cast your mind back to a very different time. April 2025. A Minecraft movie was a box office smash. Luther by Kendrick Lamar and Siza was topping the charts. And there was a federal election campaign in which upstart liberal leader Mark Carney was sharing a bold vision about one of the biggest issues facing our country, housing affordability. Now we're in another housing crisis, and it's time your government got back into the business of building affordable homes. We will build new homes for Canadians at a pace not seen since the Second World War. We'll build a Canada you can afford. Well, today the federal parliamentary budget officer had some rather bleak news about Canada's plans to build baby build. The office revealed that that Build Canada Homes plan is only projected to add... 26,000 units to the country's housing supply over the next five years. That's not even 4% of the hundreds of thousands of units the budget officer says are needed to get housing costs down. And there's more bad news. The PBO says the government hasn't put out a complete plan to fulfill its promise of doubling the pace of housing construction. Mike Moffat is an economist and the director of the University of Ottawa's Missing Middle Initiative. We reached him in Ottawa. Mike, that was April. This is December. The Parliamentary Budget Office, as you know, says that the Build Canada Homes project will likely add just less than 4% of the units this country needs to restore housing affordability. What weren't wrong with those promises on that plan? Well, they simply didn't implement the platform that they ran on. That Bill Canada homes, they've allocated half as much money that was in the election campaign. And there were a number of other promises made during the campaign that have yet to be implemented. So there's a real disconnect here between a government that says that it's going to move at speeds, thought unimaginable, and what we're currently seeing, which is kind of a slow rollout. of positive housing policy, but not at the scale necessary to meet the crisis. Were you skeptical at the outset or did you believe that that fast track and what they were promising was actually feasible at the time?

I believed it was feasible. And in fact, at the time, I didn't think it went far enough, but I was cautiously optimistic that the government, if elected, would build off of that. So it's disappointing to see how slowly that the government is acting. We said, our team said during the budget that we were quite disappointed. And I think that the PBO has confirmed what we were seeing that overall, again, these are positive. policies, but not at the speed and scope and scale necessary to address the crisis. Do you feel that this government is abandoning that goal of building more housing and enough housing to make it affordable for people across the country? Or is it just a slowing? Do you feel that the speed up could come back? Well, I'm cautiously optimistic that they will start to enact more policies. I feel that housing has kind of fallen between the cracks for some understandable reasons. Obviously, Canada, U.S. relationship is fraught. We have a government looking to build pipelines and other infrastructure. And it seems that that's where the government's attention has been. And housing hasn't received that attention. The government today did see. say that they were going to, you know, this was just the first budget and we were going to see more policies in future years. And I hope that's the case. But, you know, young people, people suffering from homelessness, they really can't afford to wait. And we really need to see the government moving faster. Yeah, I hear what you're saying. And I wonder, based on the conversations you're having and the folks you're speaking to, if all of that reasoning, I mean, how that might sit with them. This was a major voting issue for. for millions of people in this country, I think it's fair to say. So do you think that that all, you know, the tariffs and the issues, the need to build infrastructure that the prime minister has spoken about is really going to sit well with them? I think there's a sense of frustration out there in people in their 20s and 30s that recognize the need from our infrastructure and certainly recognize the need to manage the Canada-US relationship and to diversify our trading relationships, but that shouldn't come at the expense of moving faster at housing. So I feel that there is a real unease out there with the younger people that I speak to. And even people who, like my 14-year-old daughter, who, you know, wonder. one day if she'll ever be able to move out of mom and dad's house, you know, given how high both home prices but also rents are in this country. You were alluding earlier to what the housing minister was saying Gregor Robertson was asked about this today and he said the report doesn't consider the impact of the government's policy on private investment in home building, saying, quote, this is just the beginning and we're going to deliver a ton of affordable housing and we're going to leverage a lot of investment from across Canada to get that done, unquote. What do you make of that assertion? Can the private sector pick up the slack, the kind of slack we're talking about here?

Well, it might be possible depending on what the government's policy is, are. But there's a real lack of transparency that it should be the government telling us what their interim targets are, what their key performance indicators are, you know, how much they expect provinces, municipalities, the private sector to take up the slack. And then the PBO and analysts myself, like myself, could see whether or not this is reasonable. But the fact that there are no targets. There's no accountability measures in any of these plans. And there's a real lack of transparency that we're all kind of less guessing. And we keep hearing the government saying, well, no, no, that's not what we intend. But unless they tell us what they intend, there's no way for us to really assess what they're trying to accomplish with these policies. Is it appropriate or reasonable to expect or to want the private sector to pick up? that slack. I think they're going to have to that the private sector builds about 95% of the housing in this country. And even, you know, back in the heydays of the 60s and 70s, when we had a lot more social housing, the private sector was still building 80 to 90% of all units. So the private sector does play a key role here. But the government has to make sure that the policy environment is amenable to that. We need all parts of our economy. growing together. And again, right now we really lack that plan or vision to know the kind of housing environment that we're trying to create over the next, say, five to 15 years. Yeah. So given where we are now, you know, in the PBO saying we need 690,000 new housing units by 2035, is that feasible or achievable right now? We don't have the policy environment for it right now. No, I mean, right now we will be lucky to continue building homes at the same rate. You know, we are seeing in our major cities, Toronto and Vancouver, Montreal and Calgary condo starts and ground-oriented housing starts and sales fall. So we're just trying to tread water right now. And we need a lot more action from all three orders of government to have any kind of increase, let alone filling that. 690,000 home gap that the CMHC and the PBO says that we need between now and 2035. Mike, I appreciate this. Thank you. Oh, thank you for having me. Mike Moffitt is an economist and the director of the University of Ottawa's Missing Middle Initiative. We reached him in Ottawa.

You've been listening to the As It Happens podcast. Our show can be heard Monday to Friday on CBC Radio 1 after your world tonight. And you can, of course, also listen to our show online at cbc.ca.a slash AIH or on the CBC Listen app or, of course, wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Neil Kirksel. And I'm Chris Howden. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cBC.ca slash podcasts.