ICE And The ICE Watchers

The NPR network has always been powered by the people it serves, not by shareholders or special interests, but by people like you and me who believe in a free and independent press. One year ago this month, Congress eliminated federal funding for public media. Together, we continue the kind of journalism that we, the public, rely on. Please support this work today at plus.npr.org. In Minneapolis and across the country, people are showing up to watch ICE operations. They're filming, documenting, and alerting neighbors. Supporters say they're exercising their First Amendment rights. Federal officials say they're interfering and in some cases even calls them domestic terrorists. So where is the legal line? What actually happens when observers are charged and what risks do people take by showing up? I'm Jen White. You're listening to the 1A podcast. Our guests join us to take a look at those questions right after this. Stay with us.

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a immigration officer. So, for example, in L.A., there were a few cases where people allegedly, you know, threw rocks at ICE officers, for example. Sometimes, though, it's an instance where an immigration... officer was aggressive toward a protester or an observer, they, you know, scratched themselves up. So one woman was filming an arrest. She was pushed up against a wall by an agent. That agent scraped their hand in the course of pushing her up against the wall. This is the, this is in the allegation by the government. And that woman was charged with... Section 111 on the grounds that she caused the hand scrape. So there's a pretty big gamut here between instances where people allegedly really did potentially violate the terms of the statute and instances where it actually seems like immigration officers were the aggressor. And the person charged, again, whether that's a protester, an observer, somebody who was actually arrested by ICBP, even though they're kind of the victim of the aggression, they're the one charged. I just want to mention here that we did reach out to DHS for this program, but we didn't receive a response. Here's the message we got from a member of our tax club, Quinta. What I see are people clearly violating the law, shouting, screaming, docking agents, standing in the road. In the statute you shared with us, how clearly is impeding defined in the law? It's a great question, and I think it's something that we are learning the contours of right now. The Department of Homeland Security and the Justice Department clearly understand that pretty broadly. There is a case that I think listeners may have heard of out of Chicago where a Democratic congressional candidate, Kat Abu Ghazala, some other protesters stood in front of a vehicle, a government vehicle as it was attempting to enter a detention center sort of. of not blocking the car, the car was able to move forward, but they were slowing it down. They were charged with obstructing and impeding. That case is still moving forward. The defendants have pleaded not guilty. I think they will probably argue if it goes to trial, this does not actually constitute impeding or obstructing because the officials were in the end able to get inside. It just took a little longer. So what we have to understand, I think, is that, you know, the language of that statute can... sound pretty broad, but people do have First Amendment rights. There is a First Amendment right to film. There's a First Amendment right to voice dissent. We've also seen ICE and CBP officers.

explain the statute to observers, let's say, in language that is broader than I think could actually stand up in court. So there have been some videos, I believe in Minneapolis and I think elsewhere, of observers who have been told by immigration officers, you know, blowing a whistle to alert people to the presence of immigration enforcement that constitutes impeding because, you know, somebody might know ISIS here and not go outside. I think it's very noteworthy. They have not charged any of those cases in court. And what that says to me is that it might be a good line to try to frighten someone out of blowing a whistle. But DHS and DOJ have a sense that if you brought that in front of a judge, a judge would probably not think that that met the terms of the statute. Well, what's been your experience observing ICE over the last few weeks? I have been pretty aggressively engaged in ice observation, including car observation where we identify ice vehicles when we follow them in our cars and basically alert people in the neighbor to their presence. And what we have found is that, generally speaking, they're quick to threaten you. with arrest. But they are not often, occasionally, not often actually making those arrests when you call the bluff. Just the other day, I was following a nice vehicle, and they actually got out of the car and said, you are impeding a federal operation. We will arrest you if you continue to do this. And I said, I'm not impeding you physically. And they said, well, you're blocking traffic. And I said, well, you're blocking traffic. You stopped your car. And I said, I'll continue to follow you to a certain road at the boundary of the city. And they didn't arrest me. They just got back in their car and drove, and I followed them, like I said, it would, and nothing really happened. And I think that that has by and large been the experience of observers. With that said, there are obviously some instances where ICE has escalated, has detained people, of course, and of course there's, you know. many instances of notable violence against observers. But in general, you do get a sense that they understand that they're on legal, thin ground as long as you are not physically obstructing them in any way. Well, and as I mentioned earlier, you're a civil rights attorney. So when you're out observing, what do you understand the legal line to be? What do you do? What do you avoid doing? So personally, yeah, my... legal line. The line that I try to adhere to is I don't want to physically get in their way in any way. If they are in a car, I will step out of the way. If the agents are coming through, I will step out of the way. I certainly would never lay a hand on them or make an aggressive action towards them. But beyond that, as long as you are making noise, as long as you are filming, as long as you are behind them. as long as you are communicating to people who are doing the same, you're not helping them get in front of them. I think that you're on pretty strong ground legally. Amelia, you train people to do this work. What are the first rules you give observers?

The first rule we give folks is to not get in the way and to have a body. We began training constitutional observers in 2016, and we have seen how the environment on the operations has escalated and turned violent to regular people, including citizens and neighbors that are in the same area in which these operations are taking place. And so we advise people to not go by themselves. to bring with themselves a bag with notebooks, with their camera, charges, hand warmers, water, in case they are also gassed or chemicals are used against them. To not bring weapons or anything that looks like a weapon, do not bring children if you're observing or any pets. Quinta, one of the things we've seen circulating on social media is people working to identify agents who may be masked or partially masked and then sharing those identities publicly. Can people be charged for naming agents? Now I don't mean sharing addresses or personal information to simply identifying who they are. I have not. So I will say, you know, it's hard to keep track of all of these cases. There's over 90 judicial districts in the United States, and there's no easy way to search them. At least under this statute and under any other statute, I have not seen a single case charged. that was charging someone for just naming someone, naming an immigration officer. I mean, these are public officials. They serve the public. There is at present no law that prohibits naming. Now, there have been, there's been conversation around, you know, should this be prohibited in some way? But at the moment, there is not. Now, if you took a step beyond that and you posted, you know, I've identified this agent. This is his name. This is his address. It would be terrible if something happened to his family, right? If you move beyond just identifying someone into actively threatening them, that is a threat and that can be charged and can be prosecuted. And the government has, in some instances, attempted to charge people for such actions, although in at least one case, I believe the case was dropped. We don't know why the Justice Department decided not. to move forward with it. But there is no prohibition on simply sharing the names of these officers. And I think the fact that so many of them are wearing masks in a way kind of underlines that. There's no prohibition against identifying them. And for that reason, you know, a mask is a very useful tool if you don't want to be identified and there's no legal prohibition on identifying you. You simply cover your face and try to make yourself as anonymous as possible. Now, ICE and DHS officials have called some observers domestic terrorists. And briefly, legally, what, if anything, does that label mean? Not very much.

To be clear, it sounds bad. I think it is politically incendiary and dangerous in the sense that it is labeling political opposition as, you know, violence and potentially even encouraging violence against them. But it doesn't really have any significance. When we think of terrorism cases, we're usually thinking about international terrorism. So, you know, somebody who sends money to ISIS, for example. But international terrorism is kind of in a different legal category than... what we might mean if we say, quote, and quote, domestic terrorism. That is defined in the United States Code as political violence, but it doesn't, you can't charge someone with just domestic terrorism. There's certain, you know, there has to be an offense that goes along with it. So setting off a bomb, for example, can be charged as domestic terrorism. But none of these observers or protesters have set off bombs. They're by and large simply exercising their First Amendment rights. when, again, when we look at the criminal cases that have been charged against these individuals, it is almost 100% under this heading of Section 111, this assaulting and impeding a federal officer. There's nothing that would fall even remotely under the heading of domestic terrorism. There's not even the language of domestic terrorism in these documents that are filed in front of a court. And I think that's telling because when lawyers go in front of the court, there is an obligation of candor. You can't simply sort of spout rhetoric and make statements with no factual basis in the same way that you can on television. And so it's telling that the Justice Department isn't willing to actually go that far when it has an obligation to tell the truth. Amelia, and Will, I want to hear from both of you on this. What do you see as the purpose of having observers on the streets? watching these ice operations as they unfold. Amelia, come to you first. Yeah, so we learned from this... strategy in southern states after Hurricane Katrina, where there would be flux of construction workers rebuilding the city and bad actors, including corporation owners, company owners, will call eyes on these workers before the projects were done so they avoid payment. And we learn from other organizers in the area that constitutional observing It is a guaranteed pattern that can provide some legal...

recourse for immigrants that perhaps have a legal case in front of a judge. The main purpose of us deploying this strategy was to only provide attorneys with more legal evidence, with more information about time of arrest. And so we get a lot of questions about, well, does legal observant make this worse? And our position is that it's actually the opposite. Well, I'd love to hear your thoughts. The way I see it, there are essentially three purposes here, and I think they align with the training that I've received as well. One is, first and foremost... ISIS here to detain people, to abduct them. I've seen these take place. You know, immigrants, they're often, whether or not they're documented isn't always clear. And they take place very suddenly. There's not any record of them. They will jump out of a car. They'll grab someone off the street, usually almost always a person of color, walking alone sometimes, put them in the back of an SUV and race off. There's no record. There's no way to know who that is. It happens. maybe under 90 seconds. If you're not there observing, you won't be able to get information on who that person is and we'll never be able to find out, get them attorney, find out where they are, if they've been shipped off the Texas or even out of the country. So first and foremost, you want to get information about people who've been abducted, get their names. Second, I think it acts as a little bit of restraint on ice and on some of these operations. I've seen many, many things that they've done here in Minneapolis that are just egregiously unlawful, that are unconstitutional, just... reckless abuse of authority, brutalizing protesters, brutalizing detainees, observers. And that has to be documented. They know if there's eyes on them, they're less likely to do it. You know, as soon as they move in on someone, everyone swarms them and says, you're on camera. And then finally, and I think this is very important, it's overlooked sometimes, is that you're creating a record and not just for legal purposes, but for the broader public. I think part of why we're seeing this backlash in Minnesota is there is so much media being produced above, you know, of ICE abuses, and that is coming out of the Observer Network, and I think that's essential. I should add here that late last week, Tom Homan, the administration's borders are, said it was considering new guidelines for federal immigration officers in Minnesota, including plans to avoid engaging with what he called agitators and only focusing on immigrants with convictions or facing criminal charges. We reached out to ICE for comment on current guidance regarding engaging with the protesters and observers but did not hear back. We'll be right back.

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Let's get back to the conversation with this message we got from one of you. The hardest part is to not cross the line from observation to what would be interference. I have to be present in each moment and know that I may or may not like what I see. Amelia, you were sharing with us what you see is the purpose of having observers on the ground as these ice operations are unfolding. You share that part of it is to create a record for a possible legal action. But what other purpose do you think this serves? Well, this constitutional observing action matters beyond immigration. History shows that when constitutional protections erode for one group, they erode for everyone. Today, it's immigrants, tomorrow, it's protesters, journalists, or people simply stand nearby. Our network of constitutional observers, Monarcha, exists because people believe the Constitution should apply in every neighborhood without exception. And constitutional observing is not an spontaneous protest. It's trained. It's discipline. It's nonviolent. It is a deeper level of civic engagement where observers today in Minneapolis and St. Paul in Minnesota include... parents, clergy, teachers, workers, elders, people rooted in their communities. And the guided principle is very simple. Our protection is our power. It's our relationships. That is the most important protection at this moment when people feel that local, municipal, and even state government is inadequate to protect people when there's a federal enforcement with a lot of guns, a lot of agents, and a lot of vitriol. We got this question from Jay in Oklahoma. Over and over we hear about cases being dismissed for a lack of evidence and legal standing. Can judges hold ICE officers and prosecutors in contempt of court for bringing such obviously frivolous charges? Quinta, let's start with that first part. What are you seeing when cases against observers and protesters actually reach court? we're seeing a lot of them get thrown out at various stages. Sometimes what will happen is that the Justice Department will file a case, we'll file it on... in the form of what's known as a complaint that only requires a sworn affidavit from a law enforcement officer. If it's a felony, that needs to be charged by a grand jury. But sometimes they can't get a grand jury to indict. In Washington, D.C., we saw numerous cases where the Justice Department tried repeatedly, for instance, in the case of the man who threw a sandwiched at a CBP officer, the grand jury refused to indict. That is extraordinarily rare. The standard is very low and grand juries have refused. So sometimes cases get thrown out at that stage. Sometimes a judge has dismissed a case at the request of a defense lawyer because the judge felt...

You know, this simply won't hold up. There was a case in Texas, I think, where a man, an immigrant, was charged because a ICE officer had punched through the window in his car and the officer cut his hand while punching through the window. The man was then charged because of the cut on the hand. And a judge simply said, essentially, this is absurd. You know, you cannot possibly hold this person responsible for this. There are other instances where cases get thrown out. Because the Justice Department, for whatever reason, simply decides we're not going to pursue this anymore. We can only assume why that might be. But I think it's reasonable to expect that it's because of a lack of evidence, a lack of confidence. And then some cases go all the way to trial and a jury acquits. And so what about the second part of Jay's question? How are we seeing judges respond to these cases coming in front of them? Are they... angry, are they understanding, are they giving some leeway around the prosecution? It varies from judge to judge. My senses that judges are increasingly fed up with this for a lot of different reasons. You know, the Justice Department isn't supposed to bring meritless cases. It clogs up the court system in D.C. I'm using that as an example because I'm based there. I'm most familiar with it. All these cases against observers really... clogged up the court system and created serious bandwidth problems for judges who just had to grapple with all of these cases. We have not seen any example of judges threatening or judges holding prosecutors or ICE officers in contempt, but if the Justice Department were to potentially push something as far as it would go to misrepresent something before a judge, something like that, I think you could very well, you know, see that threatened. and then the judge would have a decision to make about how far to go there. Well, DHS Secretary Kristi Noem announced yesterday that all ICE agents in Minnesota will be sent body cameras, and when funding becomes available, cameras will be sent to agents across the country. Will, to your mind, does that at all change the need for civilian observers? Absolutely not. I think that we have, I mean, as we've seen both killings of Renee Good and Alex Pretty were caught on camera. I think that the officer that shot Renee Good was actually filming as he shot her, in fact, on his phone. And what we've seen here in Minnesota is that many of these officers...

Quinta, what are we hearing about the training piece of this? How well these agents may be trained in knowing what is and isn't allowed constitutionally. This has been... subject of a lot of discussion. So we know that new agents, there's been some reporting from my colleague Nick Miroff at the Atlantic, that new agents at ICE are receiving less training than previously, that they'd cut it down to, I think it was 47 days in honor of Trump as the 47th president. It was then cut to 42 days. It is worth noting, though, that some of these agents and officers who are out there have been on the force for a long time. time. The officers who shot Renee Goodnack's pretty had been on the force for years. So I think that some of this issue is, you know, a problem of new officers not being adequately trained, but it's also a problem of people who have previously been in immigration enforcement not being adequately trained in part because, as you were just saying, you know, these... Officers are not trained for, you know, acting as beat cops. They're not trained to de-escalate. They don't know how to patrol. They don't know, you know... what the normal procedures are for limiting use of force, for example, if somebody comes up and is filming you or even as, you know, trying to egg you on. So much of what we've seen in Minneapolis has been, you know, officers continually escalating a situation when what you would really want to see a trained law enforcement official do is de-escalate it. And some of that is just because until now... federal immigration enforcement has not involved acting in these kinds of roving patrols around cities. Now, I think you could also say, you know, maybe this kind of unregulated behavior is a goal of the Department of Homeland Security, and that may well be the case, but the absence of adequate training is certainly a factor here. Stephen says if they don't want regular people to act as accountability chaperones, then maybe what we need is for every operation to have official trusted observers from unrelated agencies similar to voting watchers. Political leaders in Minnesota, including Governor Tim Walz, have called for individuals to record ICE operations. Walls said, quote, help us create a database not just to establish a record for posterity, but for future prosecutions. Amelia, given your concern about surveillance and potential retaliation, how are you advising people, not just about recording and sharing video, but also keeping data secure? Well, we are advising people to...

use punching code in their cell phones so that they're not access with facial recognition in case an officer gets a hold of the device. We're asking folks to close any access to Wi-Fi or Bluetooth while they are observing. But I think like the bigger question is what happens if the state actually finds a path or continues to scare people into. pressing charges because of what's, because there's so many observers. Only Unidos by ourselves have trained close to 30,000 people that are on the ground observing on their way to work, on their way to school drop off, on their way to daily life. And so that we believe that beyond data security, what we are trying to build is a leaderful movement of observers in a civil society. And that's the best way to protect each other. We don't have the power in legislation in the state or in federal government to regulate the use of our data at this point. We have some recourse by the Attorney General, but this is also a proof of the big power of the tech companies in this administration. I can argue, as one of the speakers was saying, that is it the tone? Is it the escalation? What this federal government is looking on the ground when they are enforcing this type of activities with this type of... violence or is it really instigation? Are they trying to get a reaction from us? Are they trying to get a reaction from civil society? And what Minnesota's I'm saying is we have the right to not agree with this administration agenda. We are going to continue to observe and record. We know there will be consequences. But we are okay with facing the consequences because what we see is not aligned with our way of life as Minnesota is right now. Well, briefly, when will you feel? It's okay to step back from the role you've taken on as an observer. I'm afraid that many people will feel the need to keep up patrols and watches a while after ICE withdraws even because of fear in the community. But at the moment, I think everyone's playing it by year. As long as these abductions are happening every day, as long as you're seeing ice in our streets every day, and we continue to see them in our streets every day, I think people are pretty committed to keeping it up, and I definitely am. And just very briefly, Quentin, a quick sentence, what are you watching for in the coming weeks? I want to see how long ICE and CBP stay in Minneapolis and whether or not they continue to take these tactics to different cities. Well, we'll leave it there for now. That's Quinta Jurassic, staff writer at the Atlantic, focusing on politics, democracy, and the rule of law.

Will Stancel was also with us. He's a civil rights attorney and policy researcher. His substack, Stancil culture, is about politics and democratic strategy. And Amelia Gonzalez Avalos, Executive Director of Unitos, Minnesota, a group that trains people to observe federal immigration enforcement activities through rapid response networks. Thanks to you all. Today's producers were Maya Garg and Alison Brody. This program comes to you from WAMU, part of American University in Washington, distributed by NPR. I'm Jen White. Thanks for listening, and we'll talk again tomorrow. This is 1A. From the light bulb to the internet. Human history has been driven by innovation, and Shortwave is exploring how the technology of tomorrow will transform our future. Would you ride in a flying taxi? Will AI models fight wars? Hear about the technological frontier every Monday on Tech Camp, the new series from Shortwave. Listen on the Empire app or wherever you get your podcasts.