September 23, 2025: Vaccines and changing guidelines; Could how we drive be early indicator of dementia?

The Trump administration continues to question longstanding science with unproven ties between vaccines, autism, and a popular painkiller. It comes as the CDC changes recommendations about what shots you, your kids, or your parents should get. The confusion and uncertainty for families and for providers, I think, is unprecedented. We'll sort out how the changes could affect families in Colorado. Then, as Evergreen High School prepares to reopen, some encouraging news about one of the students who was shot. And later, could there be early signs that someone's experiencing Alzheimer's or dementia well before they'd normally be diagnosed? Researchers in Colorado are exploring that behind the wheel. The truth is that by the time these changes in memory become apparent, a lot of damage has already been done. This is Colorado Matters from CPR News and KRCC. I'm Shandra Thomas Woodfield. The Trump administration continues to question longstanding science, asserting that there are ties between vaccines, autism, and a popular painkiller. Meantime, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has outlined new recommendations for vaccines. CPR health reporter John Daly joins us now to help us make sense of it all. Hi, John. Good morning, Shandra. Let's start with autism. It left into the headlines yesterday. President Trump held a press event with some top health leaders from his cabinet that included his health secretary, Robert F. Kennedy Jr.., who is a prominent vaccine critic, would they say? Well, the topic was essentially vaccines, autism, and Tylenol. They talked about it in a rambling news briefing, and the president promoted unproven ties between Tylenol use by pregnant women and babies. But research into a link has been inconclusive. That means there's no established risk. So we're talking about Tylenol, which you can purchase at any pharmacy or grocery store. Exactly. Acidaminophen is the generic name for the brand name medication Tylenol. Now, what's been the reaction to all of this? Well, his comments run counter to decades of research about this. He offered no new evidence to back the claim. The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists issued a statement stressing that it considers acetamethin safe. Its leader said, quote, the conditions people use acetamine to treat during pregnancy are far more dangerous than any theoretical risks and can create severe morbidity and mortality for the pregnant person and the fetus. meaning it's dangerous to them. Now, what does Colorado State Health Department say about this? Well, I reached out to CDPHD, the Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment, about this. A spokeswoman said, scientifically, autism spectrum disorder has no single known cause.

but is likely a combination of multiple genetic and environmental factors. She said the global scientific and medical community is clear. Vaccines do not cause autism. There is no scientific evidence leaking autism. vaccines to autism. Did you talk to any doctors about this? I did. I spoke with Dr. David Higgins. He's a pediatrician at CU ANCHUTES. He says there are known risks to Tylenol or acetaminophen. If you take too much, for example, you can damage your liver. He says he recommends it only when necessary, but it's important for patients to take if they're miserably sick or have a fever. And the president said, quote, don't take Tylenol. Yeah, I think he said it several times during this press conference. And Higgins says that he worries this messaging coming from the administration to avoid Tylenol at all costs may lead people to try other medicines doctors have been warning about for years. Are people going to turn to other pain medications that we have been trying to? get the public to not turn to and providers to not prescribe like narcotics and opioids Tylenol is one of our really important pain reducers that is not does not have the risks associated with narcotics and opioids of addiction Now, all of this seems like the latest showdown between the administration and what has been established science. Yeah, I think a lot of people see it this way that this is an example of questioning the science of things like vaccines, like popular medications. Skeptics of this administration see it as kind of stirring the pot and drumming up contentious debate in a way that they see as eroding, a scientific establishment and public health and encouraging news reporting on these controversies. The Trump team insists it does have. of science behind it. And Robert F. Kennedy Jr.., his health secretary, says they're turning over every stone to address what they see as an alarming trend. Now, all of this follows another big health story. Last week, the CDC's vaccine recommendation panel wrapped up two days of debate and decisions that will affect vaccine supplies and availability here in Colorado and across the nation. John, first. What was that meeting like and what were the key takeaways? I have to say this meeting, too, was extraordinary because, you know, this panel that makes these vaccine decisions has a lot of new members and many that have expressed skepticism or criticism of vaccines. And the meeting was pretty chaotic at some points. The panel did change the recommendations for a combined shot of MMRV. That's measles, mumps, rebella, and chicken pox. And this pertains specifically to children under four, the CDC.

will not recommend that combined shot anymore. Instead, they want kids to get the MMR shot and chickenpox vaccines separately. I asked Dr. Sean O'Leary about this. He's a physician at CU Anchutes and is a leader with the American Academy of Pediatricians. He chairs the Committee on Infectious Diseases there. He calls the move on the MMRV vaccine reckless. He says these moves are having real-time impacts. And just last week, he's heard a story from a colleague in primary care about apparent declining an MMR vaccine. refusing MMR vaccine because of what she heard on the news last night about this committee, sewing fear about an issue that was settled literally over 15 years ago. Now, the American Academy of Pediatrics continues to recommend the MMRV vaccine as an option for families. So you can see this as an example of where this panel under the leadership of Robert F. Kennedy Jr.. is veering away from what major medical associations recommend. And the fact is most families in Colorado already use two separate shots to protect their kids, according to a state health department spokesperson. But she admits changes like the CDC made can sometimes lower the rates of how many people complete all of their shots. Now, do we know the reasons the vaccine panel handpicked by Robert F. Kennedy Jr.. made this change? And aside from a general anti-vaccine stance, What kind of science is this based on? Well, there's one ACIP member, RETZF Levi, he's an MIT professor of operations management. He took the lead during the discussion ahead of votes on COVID-19. And on social media, he's called MRNA vaccines dangerous and said they should be removed from the market. In his comments during the meeting, he emphasized safety concerns about the vaccines. Levy said, I don't think that the public currently believes the narrative of safe and effective. That was his quote. The panel did cite studies, but doctors like Higgins, who I mentioned earlier, say those were sometimes misinterpreted or presented in a way that was misleading or had significant bias. Okay, now let's talk about the COVID vaccine. Yep. Would have been the rules for the COVID shot and did that change? Well, there's been a broad CDC recommendation for COVID-19 vaccines. They're proven to lower the rate of hospitalization and serious illness and lower your chances of getting long COVID. Now, over the past few days last week, that CDC panel kind of weakened those recommendations somewhat. They didn't throw them out entirely. So the CDC says now people over six months should make the decision about whether to get a COVID-19 vaccine with a doctor or other health care provider. And the weakening comes in this new, quote, emphasis that the risk benefit of vaccination is most favorable for people who are at increased risk for severe COVID-19 disease. But their recommendations would not bar anyone over six months from getting the vaccine. If you want it, you are still eligible.

Now, do the major medical associations agree with the suggestions about who to prioritize and who should consult with the doctor? Well, they still broadly advise getting a COVID vaccine. For example, the American Academy of Pediatrics says COVID-19 vaccines are safe and effective in protecting people against serious outcomes from COVID. Colorado's health department has endorsed, updated COVID-19 vaccines too, but with this guidance about making decisions in consultation with your doctor in Colorado. You do not need a prescription from a doctor to get the COVID vaccine out of pharmacy. Yes, and as you emphasize, you do not need a prescription in Colorado. So the big questions are for people who want to get the COVID vaccine, will they be able to find it and what will it cost? Yeah, I think you'll be able to get it here in Colorado, and we're hearing that already this fall. But you can see a two-tier system develop where you can get it if your insurance covers it. or you can afford to pay for it out of pocket. A federal program called vaccines for children supplies hundreds of thousands of doses for Colorado kids whose families can't afford them. And it's not clear yet if that will continue. That'll depend on what the federal health agency decides. Here's Dr. Bob Belknap. He's chair of the Public Health Institute at Denver Health. If public health agencies and providers are unable to access those VFC vaccines for children, then that's going to make it very difficult. Especially for low-income families. The cost of a coronavirus vaccine, he says, is about $165. That's out of reach for many folks, especially if you have a family to vaccinate. A lot of clinics are still waiting to see what vaccines they'll be able to get through the Vaccines for Children Program. For people who do have insurance, a National Health Insurance Coalition said they will continue to cover all immunizations that the CDC had recommended before this meeting. So really the key question is, What vaccines will federal programs cover? And right now, that's still to be determined. John, thanks for sharing your insight with us. You bet. Thank you. CPR health reporter John Daly. Read his ongoing reporting on vaccines and changing guidelines at cpr.org.

Across the country, congressional lines have turned into battle lines in an unprecedented mid-decade redistricting showdown. Texas has redrawn its maps. That was a directive for President Trump to flip five seats for Republicans. Missouri and Ohio are next. California could fight back with five seats for Democrats, but with so many Republican-led states in the fight, why aren't more Democrats jumping in, too? Here's CPR's been to Brooklyn. California voters will decide this November whether to temporarily bypass their independent redistricting commission to draw five more blue seats. And in August, Governor Gavin Newsom made a plea. He asked blue states to join California's fight against GOP gerrymandering. We need to stand up, not just California. Other blue states need to stand up. We need to be firm in our resolve. But that hasn't happened. Democratic governors in already gerrymandered states like Illinois and Maryland have said everything is on the table, but haven't made any moves. Then there's Colorado. Like California, it has an independent redistricting commission. Multimillionaire businessman Kent Theory helped spearhead the movement in those two states. He says this national partisan battle is like his worst nightmare coming true. Anyone who treasures representative democracy and the fragility of representative democracy has to be just horrified at what is happening right now. Theory says even though he doesn't want Colorado to follow California's elite. I am not critical of those who have decided that right now they're in a gunfight and you can't unilaterally disarm. I respect that logic. I just won't be an active part of it. In Colorado, Democrats control state government and hold both U.S. Senate seats. But the House delegation is four Democrats and four Republicans. Some political observers say in theory it wouldn't be that hard to draw two more seats favorable to Democrats. However, Governor Jared Polis told progressive podcaster Brian Tyler Cohen that it's impossible to change how the state draws congressional lines before the midterm election. Our state constitution is the process. That cannot be amended in an off year. So there is no mechanism to go to the ballot this year like California is doing. That means 2026 is the earliest something could get on the ballot. But changing how Colorado redistricts to make it partisan isn't an idea Jared Polis seems to support. And he doesn't think voters would either. They see through this, swing voters, unaffiliated voters, really don't like this kind of sheer arrogance. Jared Polis says he thinks Democrats can flip seats by focusing on other things, like the impact of Trump's massive tax and spending bill. So this is going to be an albatross around the neck of all the Republicans have voted for it, especially in rural areas where they've run up numbers. But outside of Colorado's political establishment, some on the left do want to fight back. Jorge Rodriguez is an accountant from the northern part of the state. He's trying to put a question on the 2026 ballot to allow Colorado to draw more blue seats. Rodriguez says his idea gained traction after he posted about it on Reddit.

kind of frustrated why democratic leaders here in colorado are not trying to do anything they're just Playing it silent. Rodriguez's idea still faces hurdles. The ballot title hasn't been approved, and then backers would need to raise money to get enough signatures to put it before voters, and launch a statewide campaign. Rodriguez himself voted for Colorado's Independent Commission back in 2018. I don't regret it, but in light of what's going on right now nationally, things can change. Things have changed. But if change happens in Colorado, and that's a big if, the state will have to wait until after 2026. I'm Benta Berkland, CPR News. And I'm Shandra Thomas Whitfield. You're with Colorado Matters from CPR News and KRCC. This is Colorado Matters from CPR News and KRCC. I'm Shandra Thomas Woodfield. Students at Evergreen High School will start returning to school this week. This after two of their classmates were shot earlier this month by a fellow student. The school has been closed since the attack on September 10th. CPR's justice reporter, Yassena Robles, has been following the story closely and joins us now to bring us up to date. Hi, Yassinia. Hi, Shandra. So the school is calling this a gradual supportive return. Staff members return Monday. What more can you tell us? There will be an open house and walkthrough of the school for parents and students tomorrow evening. Students head back to school on Thursday and Friday in half-day sessions, but classes won't start until next week. And as you mentioned, staff members returned Monday to prepare for what's ahead. Now, the principal says the physical damage to the school has been repaired and that the school mostly looks like it did at the start of the school year. I would imagine the mental and emotional toll is still top of mind for many. Yeah, and at the Open House Wednesday, students will have a chance to walk around the school at their own pace and direction. There will also be an optional family healing activity, and mental health professionals will be on hand. Students who spoke with Jefferson County Public School leaders requested a slow transition back to school. Here is Evergreen's principal, Skylar Artis. As we move forward together, one thing I am certain of is that this school and this community hold the most incredible, the most courageous people I have ever known. This community is strong and it will continue to be so as we take these first few steps together. Thank you for the outpouring of love, compassion, and support from our Evergreen family.

You have wrapped us in love and care, and I am so grateful. We are forever, evergreen. How are the two students who were injured doing? They're both still in the hospital, but 18-year-old Matthew Silverstone has been upgraded to fair condition. He had been in critical since the shooting. The name of the other student has not been made public at the request of the parents, and that student remains in serious condition also as of Monday. Matthew Silverstone's uncle now calls Matthew his hero. How is that family coping? They are rallying around Matthew. His uncle, Chris Kaler, says Matthew's mom has been by his side or at the hospital around the clock. Kaler said the family is coming to accept that Matthew has a long recovery ahead of him. He's facing multiple surgeries and possibly a lifelong recovery. Other media outlets have reported that witnesses say, After the shooting inside the school, Matthew fought with the shooter at a nearby intersection before he too was shot. Here's Matthew's uncle. We've received... A lot of cards, and pretty much all of them talk about the kindness, the gentleness, the lovingness of Matthew. But we received a couple that have really stuck out. I was in the building with all this, and I heard from many about how you were telling people to get away when they were coming back from lunch. I knew many of these people, and I cannot thank you enough for getting them out of there. You're truly a hero and such a kind person. So please get better soon. We get notes like that, and that raises all our spirits. Matthew was shot just one day after he had turned 18 years old. From what I understand, when the shooting happened, the school resource officer assigned to Evergreen High School was on medical leave. Yes, that SRO has been out for the last 11 months. Other school resource officers were filling in part-time as they covered multiple schools instead of only being assigned to the one. As students return to school, the sheriff's office plans to rearrange staff to ensure there's a full-time armed SRO present at Evergreen High. In a letter to the community, the district also said it will provide an armed district security guard. and patrol coverage in the Evergreen area. What do we know about the investigation into what happened at this point? The shooter was a 16-year-old student who attended Evergreen High School. He died by a self-inflicted gunshot after he was confronted by sheriff's deputies. We know this all happened in less than 10 minutes. The shooting started inside the school where one student was shot. Investigators say the shooter was unable to reach more students who were behind locked doors.

So the shooter then moved outside across the football field where the second student was shot. In total, the shooter fired 20 rounds. It's not clear how the teenager got the revolver that he used or his motive. But we know investigators believe he had been, quote, radicalized. The FBI confirmed it had been investigating the identity of an online user who had been discussing plans for a mass shooting. But that part of the investigation stopped on September 10th, the day the shooting happened at Evergreen High School. As sheriff's spokesperson says there is body camera footage of the incident, as well as security footage from inside the school that shows the shooter's movements throughout the incident. None of that has been released at this time, and the investigation is ongoing. Yacinia, thanks for the update. You're welcome. CPR justice reporter, Yassiniot Robles. Read ongoing reporting on the investigation on our website, which is cpr.org. I'm Shandra Thomas Woodfield. This is Colorado Matters from CPR News and KRC. This is Colorado Matters from CPR News and KRCC. I'm Shandra Thomas Woodfield. Colorado researchers want to know whether subtle changes in a person's mobility may help diagnose Alzheimer's and dementia earlier. Dr. Neha Loda is an associate professor at Colorado State University. She directs a lab there that studies how movement and cognition intersect. Dr. Loda believes that before Alzheimer's or dementia is formally diagnosed, ordinary activities may offer early clues to the condition. She spoke with CPR's Andrea Dukakis about a recent study and a newer one which focuses on driving. The interview is part of our series, Aging Matters. Neha, welcome. Thank you. How did you first arrive at this idea that there may be subtle changes that signal the onset of Alzheimer's or other forms of dementia? Yeah. So, you know, to answer this question, I will need to share a little bit of my personal background with you. So several years ago, I began my academic journey as an undergraduate in an engineering program. And this program was designed to train students to basically develop sleek cell phones and these advanced cellular networks. But interestingly, early in my undergrad years, during my freshman year, I realized that, you know, I was a misfit in the program and I did not want to spend the rest of my time coding away in the office of an international or multinational corporation. So one of my professors, he encouraged me to find a passion project where I could apply my engineering skills to something more meaningful.

And, you know, that guidance really led me to an internship at a hospital where for the first time in my life, I interacted with people who had Alzheimer's disease. So, you know, as you may imagine, as an engineer, I was trained to be a problem solver. And what that involved is observing carefully. and then basically coming up with solutions using my engineering tool set. And I have to say this, sometimes, you know, previous knowledge can bias us and force us to see things only in certain ways. However, because I was an engineer with no clinical training, I did not learn about the symptoms or challenges of Alzheimer's from a book. I learned it by seeing it firsthand while interacting with, you know, individuals with Alzheimer's disease. So anyway, long story short. I worked on developing some smart touch computer interface for these individuals and their families so that they could communicate with their loved ones. Then years later, when I joined here at Colorado State University as a faculty member, we started using smart technology basically for detection of cognitive impairments in people with Alzheimer's. These impairments... only become evident several years after the brain physiology has changed. So what that means is that the changes in the brain appear before the changes in the behavior are apparent. And that makes it hard to diagnose something early, right? You aren't seeing the behavior, so you may not know that Alzheimer's has affected a person. That's absolutely right. The truth is that by the time these changes in memory become apparent, a lot of damage has already been done. And so what we are trying to do at my lab is to pick up subtle changes in behavior even before the onset of memory loss. And these subtle changes can be evident in the way people move. Your current study focuses on an activity that many of us do every day, driving. What's the profile of the subjects that you're studying? And I assume you have a control group as well. Right. So we are inviting individuals between 65 to 80 years of age who have memory concerns or cognitive complaints and our current, you know, drivers. So they have to have a driver's license in order to participate in the study. We are also inviting individuals who are in this age range of 65 to 80.

but have no memory concerns and are, you know, cognitively, physically healthy. How do you study a person's driving and figure out whether there may be some impairment? So, Andrea, first thing is that we first started looking at driving in the lab environment where we were using this motion-enabled driving simulator to have people drive. in different kinds of scenarios that involve like countryside driving, driving in inclement weather, driving in a roundabout, and even, you know, route planning, like trying to find their way from a parking lot to a pharmacy. And what we found was that when we had people do these kind of tasks, we were able to look at their driving behavior in terms of the fluctuations in their, you know, driving speed or... how consistently they were following the road signs. And these were very telling of whether somebody had cognitive impairments or if they were, you know, cognitively normal. And give me a few examples of what they might have been doing that signaled impairment. Yes. So we just published a paper in Alzheimer's and dementia. And what we have shown is that... For example, you know, if we ask them to do a route planning, we'll give them a map and we'll say, okay, can you find your way from where you are in the parking lot to this destination? We'll find that people who have cognitive impairments oftentimes will get lost. or will take a long time to get to their destination where they might take two rounds in that roundabout or go back and forth on the same road to finally realize, oh, this was the landmark I was looking for. So essentially, you know, these are broadly spatial navigation deficits that we are seeing in the, you know, driving scenarios that we have tested people on in our laboratory. There are a lot of people that may not have cognitive impairments but aren't great at looking at maps. It's difficult to suss out those. Yeah, you know, so you ask a very valid question. Very few people actually rely on map reading. We are used to using the GPS to provide us directions. But the point that I'm trying to make with this map reading is that, you know, we may not need to read the map, but we often. do use like, you know, written instructions, for example, if you have to build your furniture, you still read instructions and then translate them into motor actions. And this ability to read and understand and then translate it into a movement is a complex activity. So map reading just gives us a way of testing that. You're still in the process of doing this study, which also involves people actually driving in a car. So you don't have the full results yet. How does the study work when people are actually in a car driving?

So when individuals who are interested in our study come to the lab, we do some cognitive motor and walking or balance tests in the lab. But then what we also do is that we offer an option where they can have a sensor that is installed in their own car. And then we let them drive the car for a whole year. We observe their weekly driving patterns, basically fluctuations in their driving patterns to identify who. may or may not have cognitive impairments few years down the line. So as an example, participants with cognitive impairments, they tend to visit fewer distinct locations. And, you know, possibly this indicates reduced novelty seeking behavior. Another way of describing this is that we find spatial navigation deficits. and reduced exploration in those individuals who have cognitive impairments compared to those who are cognitively normal. I guess your point is to be able to diagnose it early and, you know, have some interventions at that point. Right. So, you know, the importance of early diagnosis is that then people can take advantage of these, you know, medicines that have been recently approved by FDA like lichanamab and dunanamab that slow down cognitive decline. But in addition to that, they can also take advantage of these programs and services. Some of them actually provided by Alzheimer's Association to help families to adjust to, you know, the changes that Alzheimer's disease can bring to their lives and lives of their loved ones. So early diagnosis is really important in giving people that extra time to plan or to slow down the progression of disease. And when you look at Alzheimer's, say, 10 or 20 years down the road, do you think of what there may be in terms of early diagnosis and treatment that's very different from what exists today? I mean, I definitely think so. So, you know, right now, the reliance is primarily on these blood and brain-based biomarkers, right? But the people who actually are able to get these biomarkers had either genetic predisposition or they were part of a clinical study because of which they ended up doing these things. Typically, when an individual in a physician's office is flat for cognitive impairment, they already have had this. Alzheimer's disease for maybe 5 to 10 years and by this time it's too late, right? So what I'm hoping is with our work, we will be able to combine the current biomarkers with behavioral biomarkers based on the things that we do every day, that is to walk, to move, to drive. And our goal is that we are able to flag individuals who are showing some concerning behaviors that physician, their physician can say, hey, you know, you may be a good kind. where we should go in and look at your brain or your blood biomarkers and then it's followed up with a more confirmatory analysis looking at their brain pathophysiology to confirm indeed if you know something is going on and then that way they can be good candidates for these early treatments that are coming out now.

Dr. Neha Loda is an associate professor at Colorado State University. She spoke with Andrea Dukakis for our series Aging Matters, which is focused on Colorado's fastest-growing population, people age 65 and up. Dr. Loda directs CSU's movement, neuroscience, and rehabilitation lab, which studies how movement and cognition intersect. The iDRIVE study is funded in part by the Alzheimer's Association. This is Colorado Matters from CPR News and KRC. This is Colorado Matters on CPR News and KRCC. I'm Shandra Thomas Woodfield. He's a best-selling American history author who just so happens to be the ninth great-grandson of one of the most famous pirates in history. But turns out that it's famous or some would argue his infamous relative, the legendary pirate Captain Kidd, wasn't really a pirate after all. Colorado's own Samuel Marquis joins us now to set the record straight, which he details in his new book, Captain Kidd, a true story of treasure and betrayal. Publishers Weekly describes it as a caustic takedown of a centuries-old hit job. Ooh, that's intriguing. Samuel, welcome to Colorado Matters. Thanks for having me, Shandra. It's great to be here. So you are a decorated author. Your novels have received all sorts of accolades, including multiple national book awards and even named the number one Denver Post bestseller. But another claim to fame, shall we say, is your relationship to the legendary privateer, Captain William Kidd, who, spoiler alert, you say was not actually a pirate. Now, you have to explain that. Well, the Captain Kidd story is obviously very complicated, but I'll try and do it very quickly. He was a privateer, which was a legally licensed naval commander fighting on behalf of Great Britain. who was just England at that point because they hadn't united with Scotland. And so he was a, you know, a privateer fighting lawfully to take French ships and sometimes other ships of other nations. And then he went on an expedition from 1696 to 1699 that had a, he had a mutinous crew that had other ideas in mind than just being legal privateers. So for centuries, people have viewed Captain Kidd as a, quote, treasure chest burying scoundrel. But you say he instead was a wealthy New York war hero, gentleman, and pirate hunter. And your book is said to balance family descendancy with truth. In your own words, who was Captain Kidd? My book starts out in 1689, and it goes through 1701 when, unfortunately, Captain Kidd was hung for piracy. In 1689, he at that point was fighting for England against France in King William's War, which began in basically 1689. So he was legally licensed to take French ships. He was a war hero in the Caribbean who was recognized by Governor Christopher Codrington. And then he also had...

property in New York at that time. Really, he had invested in a real estate at an early time. By 1688, he owned property in New York, which he had made his home in 1688. So he returned to New York by 1691, married the love of his life, Sarah Bradley, who was a young, attractive English woman, so they're both of English stock, and he was a privateer fighting against French, but he took down Jacob Leisler, who was the usurping temporary governor who had seen power in New York during what was called the glorious revolution, which is when King William and Mary rose to power for Protestant England. and took down the Catholic James. So Captain Kidd showed, he was always appearing at the right place at the right time. The Caribbean, he was the war hero under Codrigan. In New York, he was the war hero of the rightful English government who was trying to take down Jacob Leisler. And he immediately got paid over $100,000 in today's dollars for his efforts to take down Jacob Leisler. Captain Kidd was the man of New York from 16. 1991 through really 1696 until he went on this expedition. Well, I read that some people feel the rules changed and that he was kind of a victim of a different perspective change. Can you elaborate a little bit on that? Yeah, so what happened is Captain Kidd was married Sarah Bradley, Cox, who had had a wealthy first husband. But Captain Kidd had earned a lot of money on his own, and he had invested in real estate in New York. But when they combined their incomes together, they were some of the wealthiest people in New York. They were very prestigious. He helped build Trinity Church by loaning the tackle to hoist the stones to build the original Trinity Church, which still stands today in New York. It's been rebuilt several times. But Captain Kidd helped build Trinity Church. He was the consummate New York elite. But good, generous. Remember, he was a seaman. So he's egalitarian. So all of his seamen were people from different ethnicities, different races, because he was a very egalitarian, democratic sea captain. And so he was a hero. And then 1695, he wanted to fight again. He became a merchant sea captain in 1691. So he was sailed down to the Caribbean because he knew it so well. So he switched out from privateering in another. the words being a private naval commander to being a sea captain making some money but he was still fought the french on occasion whenever he was called to do it but he wanted a royal commission from england so he sailed to england in june of 1695 and there he wanted to get a commission to fight the french

But he came across his friend, Robert Livingston of New York, and he was lured by Lord Belmont, who was going to become the royal governor of New York, Massachusetts, and New Hampshire into this plan to hunt pirates in the Indian Ocean. And at that point, the Indian Ocean piracy was exploding. And so people were taking the ships at the mouth of the Red Sea that were worth between $20 and $200 million today. Overnight farm boys, sailors were becoming millionaires overnight by the hundreds all across colonial America. This was the biggest first gold rush in colonial American history. Captain Kidd was sent to fight the pirates and to fight the French because he had a royal commission from the King of England himself. King of William III called him the trusty and well-beloved Captain Kidd. And Captain Kidd... didn't want to go on the mission he tried to get out of it but lord belmont who was about to take his post as is the governor of new york massachusetts and new hampshire coerced him into it. He threatened to seize his ship and he threatened to seize all of his seamen if he didn't take part in this risky venture to the Indian Ocean to hunt down pirates. So Captain Kidd didn't want to do it. But from 1696 to 1699, he sailed to the Indian Ocean. And that's where he became unfairly Captain Kidd, the pirate that we know today. I'm going to ask you about that, but you say he was the victim of a deliberate travesty of justice. Explain that. I'm not the only one who says that. There's a lot of people, scholars who have gotten Captain Kidd's story right, who have come before me, you know, and I want to pay tribute to them because I didn't come up with all this on my own. I built upon the past and brought forth further evidence to sort of, you know, to vindicate him as a good guy. He was a good guy. He was a war hero of New York. He was the trusting, well-beloved Captain Kidd of the King of England himself. George Washington, for instance, was never the trusting well-beloved. when he fought in the Seven Years' War against France in the 1660s, before the American Revolution, George Washington fought for the British, remember? He wanted to be honored as an officer, but they wouldn't recognize him. So Captain Kidd, not George Washington, was the trusty and well-beloved of the King of England, which George Washington really wanted. Now, George Washington later became very anti-British. Once, you know, the Stamp Act and the Boston Massacre and all, you know, Lexington and Carr, yeah. By then, yes, he did not like Britain at all. Captain Kidd loved England. That was his country until the end. And then he was a full-blooded American who hated England. So that's sort of his expeditions what launched him from 1696 to 1699. But there's a lot of events that led during that.

Expedition to Hunt Down Pirates where he became a pirate unfairly. Now, you described his trial as a sham. Yeah. So what happened, we probably want to go back a little bit to his expedition. So he left in September 1696. He left New York Harbor, said goodbye to Sarah and his two daughters. By then they had two daughters together, little Sarah and Elizabeth. And so they were like four and six. They were very young at that point. And so he sailed to the Indian Ocean because remember he had been coerced by Lord Belmont. He had to go or they were going to steal his ship and take all his men. So he agreed to it. He returned from... London to New York, he got a crew together, spent two months with his wife and daughters, and then he sailed to the Indian Ocean in September 1696. During that expedition, the Royal Navy intercepted his ship as he approached Cape Town, South Africa, and wanted to impress 30, you know, up to 40 of his seamen. The Royal Navy was going to steal his seaman. However, Captain Kidd, for a week, he was held captive by the Royal Navy, sailing alongside him. knowing that they were going to steal his men because he had to agree he agreed to it he said okay i'll give you the guys reluctantly he was buying his time because he was a colonial american and he wasn't going to just suck up to the royal navy he was buying his time for a week being whined and dined by commodore thomas warren of the royal navy But a week later, he escaped during the night. His men and he orchestrated by kid with his full authority because he didn't want 35 of his men. He protected his semen. He protected him and sailed off on the night. Well, he had to use oars. His ship was the 34 gun adventure galley, which had 34 cannons and, you know, and, you know, like over 30 oars so that he could. You know, he could propel away because it was a windless sea. So he escaped during the night, went to Madagascar. He's still on a pirate hunting mission, but he didn't want his men taken by the Royal Navy. So what did Commodore Thomas Warren do and the East India Company? There was an East India Company ship. along with Warren. Warren had a fleet of like six ships. And so Commodore Thomas Warren right then spread rumors that Kid was a pirate. He was a no-good scoundrel. And so did the East India Company. So that was the beginning of Captain Kidd being labeled falsely as a pirate. So he went to Madagascar and regrouped because his crew by then they had to take an extra month to sail. By then they had scurvy. You know, back then was a huge problem aboard ships. So he had to regroup on Madagascar and then continue his voyage where he did have other incidents that occurred where he wasn't a pirate, but that made him out to be a pirate. So where did things go arrive for Captain Kidd? It's complicated, but he didn't do anything wrong. He took two ships that belonged to the Great Mughal of India that he took legally because they presented French passports.

What happened to Captain Kidd is he followed in the wake of Henry Avery and these other pirates that he was sent to hunt down. They had caused such a stir that when Captain Kidd got there, everyone called Captain Kidd a pirate. The ships he took, he took legally. They were legal captures because England was at war with France and they presented French papers. That's why he was... accused of piracy. And then later in the expedition, he was on three different ships that were legal captures. So lawful seizures. But his crew, he put all the bad apples on one ship. They took a Portuguese galley it without his permission. And they towed it along. But at that point, his crew was mutinous. You know, he was being hunted down by all the people of the area. You know, there were British and the East India Company had made him persona non grata. So. The only thing he's guilty of is looking the other way because his mutant a seaman on another ship, he couldn't control him. So he wasn't a pirate. Now, was he technically guilty of piracy? That's a separate issue. Technically, when you go to court, because he was the overall commander, he was responsible for those other seamen on another ship. Tell us about your research. Tell us about your process. Well, I basically get... you know, every primary source document I could get my hands on. So I pretty much got virtually everything that any authors have come before me. And then, you know, I try and kind of find out who the secondary sources are that are very good to whom I can trust. Any historian will tell you that the people that come before you have provided you a roadmap. And you just have to kind of pick... and choose who you think are the scholars you can trust. So for me, it's getting all the primary sources and then kind of finding out who kind of gives me a little bit of a roadmap. And then I kind of evaluate their opinions too with my own. So my book is really, you know, it's as thorough as any book that's ever been written on Captain Kidd. It has 94 pages of in notes and bibliography. 94 pages. I'm a scientist, so I have a master's degree in... geology. I've published a number of papers on scientific, you know, kind of objective, semi-objective science and stuff. So I'm used to footnoting and detail-oriented. So my book is detail-oriented, but it reads like narrative nonfiction. Samuel, this has been fascinating. Thank you so much for joining us. Well, thanks for having me, Chandra. It's been great. Thank you. Samuel Marquis is a Colorado-based best-selling American history author who has served as an advisor to the History Channel. He is also the ninth-great-grandson of the legendary Captain Kidd, known as one of the most famous pirates in history. But Marquist argues, not so much. We spoke in June. His new book is Captain Kidd, a true story of treasure and betrayal. I'm gonna...

Thanks for joining us today and to my fine crew. Carl Beulik, Anthony Cotton, Pete Kramer, Kiara Damari, Andrea Dukakis, Zan Huchvichoni, Matt Hers, Tom Huss, Michael Hughes, Pedro Lumbraño, Shane Rumsey, Haley Sanchez, Ryan Warner. And I'm Shandra Thomas Woodfield. This is Colorado Matters on CPR News and KRC.