Oct. 12 — Vice Pres. JD Vance, Sen. Mark Kelly and Sen. Lindsey Graham

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Good Sunday morning, as President Donald Trump prepares to embark on an historic trip to the Middle East to tout the deal between Israel and Hamas to free the hostages and end the fighting in Gaza, a battle bruise at home, Mr. Trump testing the limits of his presidential authority, with another Democrat on his enemies list now under indictment. a judge blocking his orders to deploy national guard troops in Chicago, and unprecedented mass layoffs targeting federal workers during the government shutdown. The president promising the firings would be, quote, Democrat-oriented. It'll be Democrat-oriented because we figure, you know, they started this thing, so they should be Democrat-oriented. It'll be a lot, and we'll announce the numbers over the next couple of days, but it'll be a lot of people, all because of the Democrats. And joining me now is the Vice President of the United States, JD Vance. Mr. Vice President, welcome back to meet the press. Good morning, Kristen. Thanks for having me. Well, it is good to have you on this monumental Sunday, Mr. Vice President. Let's start right there with the peace agreement in the Middle East. President Trump said this week, quote, we have ended the war in Gaza. Mr. Vice President, do you see this moment as an end to the war in Gaza? Well, I do, Kristen. We're going to have to do a lot of work to make sure that it stays in it. But I also have to give your network a little bit of grief, Kristen, because last night I was watching NBC. They were covering this, and they mentioned that during a rally last night in Israel, when Steve Witkoff, our great special envoy, mentioned Benjamin Netanyahu, the crowd booed. But the broadcast didn't mention that when Steve Witkoff mentioned President Trump, the crowd actually cheered. And why is that, Chris? And why did the crowd cheer? Because this moment came from very, very deliberate. and consequential diplomacy from the president and the entire administration. The reason why we are at this moment, Kristen, is because the president of the United States, he gave unusual authorities to people who had never been in diplomacy before. He actually broke the mold. Instead of doing diplomacy the same old way that it had failed for the past 30 or 40 years, he gave Steve Witkoff and Jared Kushner a remarkable amount of authority to go and get a peace deal done. And he worked hard on everybody. from the Israelis to the Gulf Arab states to make this happen. This was very hard. This was a long time coming. It required a lot of work. But yes, I believe that we are on the cusp of peace in Gaza for the first time, not just in a couple of years, but really in a very long time because the President of the United States has done something that no other world leader has been able to do. Unite the Israelis with the Gulf Arab states for a common objective, and that is to bring the hostages home, to stop the war, and to build the kind of...

long-term settlement that we really do believe can lead to a lasting peace. And of course we have covered every twist and turn of these negotiations extensively. I do want to ask you about this historic next step, Mr. Vice President, that we are anticipating the release of the hostages. Can you tell me exactly when are the hostages going to be released? When will we see them? Well, it really should be any moment now, Kristen. The President of the United States is planning to travel to the Middle East to greet the hostages Monday morning Middle East during time, which should be late. you know, Sunday night or very early Monday morning here in the United States. So you can't say exactly the moment they will be released, but we have every expectation. That's why the president is going, that he will be greeting the hostages early next week. It's a monumental thing. It's great, of course, for their families. But I really do think that it shows what happens when you go outside their traditional failed diplomatic roots and actually try something new. It's kind of crazy to me, Kristen, that for our entire history, We've never had a president who's been willing to sit down both with the Gulf Arab states and the Israelis to try to tap some unconventional people to just get a deal done. And I think Americans should be proud of the entire administration. They should be proud of their country because we've worked so hard to make peace in the Middle East happen. And we are right on the cusp of bringing these hostages home. It'll be a great moment for our country, a great moment for the world. But I really do think the lesson here is that Donald Trump, refused to go down the failed traditional diplomatic pathway. He cut his own Trump diplomatic pathway, and because that it was successful. Let me ask you about what we can anticipate from the United States. NBC News is reporting that the U.S. military is preparing options to deploy as many as 200 troops to Israel to support the flow of humanitarian aid and security assistance into Gaza. Can you guarantee that no U.S. troops will ever be sent directly into Gaza, Mr. Vice President? Yeah, Kristen, so that report actually missed something. We're not planning to put boots on the ground. What we already have is a U.S. Central Command. We already have people in that region of the world. They're going to monitor the terms of the ceasefire. They're going to monitor, ensure the humanitarian aid is flowing. They actually confirmed yesterday that Israel pulled back to the agreed upon lines, which, of course, is the first condition, the second condition, or the second term is for the hostages to be released. So we have people in that region of the world who are going to monitor. parts of this peace proposal, but the president is not planning to put boots on the ground in Israel. What about Gaza? Will U.S. troops ever be sent into Gaza?

Just yes or no? That's what I mean, Chris. And he is not planning to put boots on the ground in Gaza or Israel. We do, we're going to have Central Command troops that are already there that are going to monitor this peace proposal. We've actually had, and this is one of the great successes of the President's diplomacy, from Indonesia to the Gulf Arab states, we've had a number of Muslim majority countries offer to step up and have them put troops on the ground to secure Gaza. It's not going to be necessary for American troops to be in Gaza. Okay, I do want to turn to the big news here back at home, the ongoing government shutdown. I want to play you a little bit of what President Trump had to say about shutdowns passed when Barack Obama was president. Take a look. If there is a shutdown, I think it would be a tremendously negative mark on the president of the United States. They're not going to be talking who the head of the House was, the head of the Senate. I really think the pressure is on the president. If you were president, what would you do? Well, very simply, you have to get everybody in a room. You have to be a leader. The president has to lead. You have to get the people in a room, and you have to get a deal. Mr. Vice President by President Trump's own calculus, the pressure is on him to get everyone into a room and get a deal. Is it not? Well, Kristen, I wouldn't focus on the political pressure to get a deal. We really don't care what the poll numbers say. But what about what President Trump said? What's good for the American people? What about what Mr. Trump said? His own words. Well, Kristen, the president was talking back then when Barack Obama was president about the political realities. We are focused now on the governing realities because we're in power and we're trying to make the American people's government work for the American people, despite the fact that Chuck Schumer, the Democrats have shut down the government. We have to step back and remember, Kristen, that there is a clean bill to open the United States government, a majority, sorry, the vast majority of Republicans and even a few moderate Democrats voted to open the government. It's Chuck Schumer and the far left of Senate Democrats who have prevented this government from reopening. Now, you talk about negotiation. We're happy to negotiate about any matter. We're happy to talk about health care policy. but not while the government is being held hostage, Christian. This is not abstract. This is not something that's pie in the sky. There are low-income women and children who will not get the food benefits they need to feed their families unless we reopen the government. We're trying to figure out how to pay our troops in the midst of this shutdown to keep our country safe and to make sure that our troops get their payments. We have got to reopen the government. And the president is committed to this. In fact, we've got a bill in the House that already passed the House. We want to make sure that that bill passes the Senate, but not so long as Chuck Schumer allows the entire country to be hijacked by a few far-left Senate. Mr. Vice President, still have a lot to get to. You are in power, and the administration has begun layoffs of thousands of federal workers. And yet during the 2019 shutdown under the first Trump administration, which lasted 35 days, no federal workers were laid off, why are these firings necessary?

Well, I just think it shows the different priorities of Democrats and Republicans in the midst of these shutdowns. You really have to ask yourself, who do we care more about? Federal bureaucrats in Washington, D.C., or low-income women getting the food benefits they deserve, are troops getting the payment they need, flood insurance across the southeast in the midst of hurricane season. But laying people off as a priority? We are going to have to lay off some federal workers. Kristen, if you would let me finish. We have to lay off some federal workers in the midst of this shutdown to preserve the essential benefits for the American people that the government does provide. So we don't want to be in this situation. We don't want to be laying off federal workers, but the Democrats have shut down the government. They have forced us to choose between American citizens. and federal bureaucrats, we're choosing the benefits, the critical services that benefit our American citizens. All right, almost out of time. A couple more questions left, though. Let me ask you, of course, there's a major legal battle underway about the administration's deployment of the National Guard. It does come, as NBC News is reporting that the administration... Has been seriously discussing invoking the Insurrection Act. That would give the president the power to direct federal troops to conduct law enforcement functions in the case of a national emergency. Is that the case? Are you seriously considering invoking the Insurrection Act? Well, the president's looking at all of his options. Right now he hasn't felt he needed to, but we have to remember why are we talking about this, Kristen? Because crime has gotten out of control in our cities. Because our ICE agents, the people who are enforcing our immigration laws, have faced a 1,000 percent increase in violent attacks against them. We have people right now who are going out there, who are doing the job the president asked them to do, who are enforcing our immigration laws. They're being assaulted. They're being beaten. They're being shot at. The problem here is not the insurrection. Act or whether we actually invoke it or not. The problem is the fact that the entire media in this country cheered on by a few far-left lunatics have made it okay to tee off on American law enforcement. We cannot accept that in the United States of America. We want everybody, black or white, rich or poor, to be safe in the United States of America. But to do that, we have to empower our law enforcement agencies to keep it safe. That's what we're talking about doing. A couple of points here. First of all, an Illinois judge said, that state and local authorities have been able to handle protest activity, that ICE that other federal agencies have been able to continue to do their work. Crime is down in both Chicago and Portland, but is there a rebellion here? That's what would trigger an insurrection act. Is it imminent? Kristen, crime is down in Chicago and Portland, often because they're so overwhelmed at the local level, they're not even keeping the statistics properly. Just a couple of weeks ago, we had an ICE office get shot at by a far-left assassin who was trying to kill our law enforcement officers. He fortunately didn't kill law enforcement officers. He did kill some other innocent people in the process. We cannot allow the far left in this country to tee off on our law enforcement officers. We've got to do something about it. And that's all the president's talking about.

I mean, there are places in Chicago, Kristen, where people are afraid to take their children. They're afraid to go out of their houses for fear of gun violence, for fear of gang drive-by shootings. That's not okay in the United States of America. The president just wants people to be kept safe, and we're exploring everything that we can do to make sure that the American people are safe in their own country. Mr. Vice President, we are almost out of time about 30 seconds left, of course. NBC News is covering and has confirmed that President Trump's social media post last month calling for his Attorney General Pam Bondi to prosecute his political opponents, James, Letitia James, and Adam Schiff was actually meant to be a private message. Both James Comey and James have now been indicted. Is the Department of Justice acting on orders from the president to prosecute his political opponents with the final 30 seconds we have left? No, we're driven by the law and the facts of the case. I think if you look at the case, the fact that a far-left grand jury in a far-left area indicted Letitia James and James Comey, if you look at the fact that James Comey obviously lied under oath, Letitia James, obviously committed mortgage fraud. What we're doing is letting the law drive, the prosecution decisions, and the Department of Justice. You know who we haven't prosecuted? Joe Biden or Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton. Unlike Biden's Department of Justice, Kristen, which actually... went after Donald Trump in the midst of an election. We are not doing that. We are letting the law drive these decisions. That's exactly as it should be. Mr. Vice President, just staying on this president, though, my question for you, is the appearance of pressure a problem? The fact that he has publicly called for these indictments and now they have happened, does that not blur the lines? No, Kristen, I think that we continue to allow the law to drive these decisions. If the law didn't necessitate an investigation and a prosecution in this case, it wouldn't happen. Of course, the president is allowed to have opinions about the law enforcement of the federal government. He is the chief executive officer of the federal government. Him having opinions doesn't mean that we prosecute people unless we have the legal justification to do so. That is the guiding light of the Trump administration's Department of Justice. Did somebody break the law? If so, we're going to prosecute them. All right, we covered a lot of ground today. Vice President JD Vance, thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate it. Thanks, Kristen. Take care. You too. And when we come back, Senator Mark Kelly of Arizona joins me next.

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Welcome back. And joining me now is Democratic Senator Mark Kelly of Arizona. Mark Kelly, welcome back to meet the press. It's good to be on. It's wonderful to have you here. A lot of ground to cover. Let's start with the Middle East again. You just heard my conversation with Vice President JD Vance. How much confidence do you have that this peace agreement will hold? Well, I hope it does. And this is a big deal. I mean, to get this close. And the hostages, as the Vice President said, hopefully released on Monday. The Israeli... IDF, you know, taking a step back per, you know, the first step that's supposed to happen here. So we're going to watch closely and see, you know, what happens in the days, weeks, months ahead. I think it was good to hear that we're not going to have troops beyond the CENTCOM forces that are already there on the ground. But, you know, beyond this, this is going to be up to Hamas and Israel to keep this peace. And my hope is that the other countries like UAE and Saudi Arabia actually do what they say they're going to do, which is support not only the peace but the rebuilding of Gaza. Do you believe that this peace deal came together now because President Trump was more effective at pressuring Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu than former President Biden was? Well, it seems that the president has a very complicated and interesting relationship with the Prime Minister of Israel. And I think it's fair to give them credit for this. I mean, this so far looks like a possibility of a success. And I'll tell you if it does hold over the long term, now we've got things we've got to worry about here. Yeah, I think you could say that his relationship with BB was part of us. Okay. Let's turn to the big news here at home, the shutdown. Of course, Senate Democratic leader Chuck Schumer said this week, quote, every day gets better for us. Of course, that comes as hundreds. of thousands of federal workers have been furloughed, mass layoffs have already started, as I was just discussing. Is that the right message from the Senate Democratic leader that every day gets better? Yeah, I heard what Chuck Schumer said about this, but, you know, it's not about, you know, winners and losers. You know, in this situation, we've got two million Americans that are likely to lose their health care. because they're not going to be able to afford these premium increases. And I think it's important for all Americans to know that this fight right now over this government shutdown is about one thing. It's about the cost of their health care. Tens of millions of people, actually about 19 million people get their health care off the Affordable Care Act. And their rates are going to go up dramatically and it's going to become unaffordable. I've talked to so many people in my state. often around the age of 60, but some also in their 20s. A woman named Vivian who had a complicated pregnancy, and without the ACA, she felt like she could lose her home. Another woman named Cricket, who's 63, who's going to see her health care costs possibly triple, who also had a medical emergency. It could have cost $10,000. It cost her $1,000. Without the ACA, these folks are one illness or one accident.

away from bankruptcy. So that's what this is about. And we have to get this administration. Now, the vice president talked about a negotiation. The president has negotiated for one hour, as far as we can tell. And Republicans in the House, they've been gone for four weeks. And John Thune, the majority leader in the Senate, sent people home for four days. Well, you take me to my next question, because tensions are running high on Capitol Hill. We have some video of that. You and your fellow Arizona Senator Ruben Gallego confronting Speaker Mike Johnson over the fact that the House is currently out of session. And as you just laid out, one of Democrats' core demands is to extend Obamacare subsidies. If Republicans commit to hold a vote to extend these subsidies before the end of the year, would that be enough for Democrats to reopen the government? Would you vote for that? Would you support that? Not right now. No, we need a real negotiation and we need a fix. We need this corrected for the American people. This is for so many people. They're... Healthcare is running towards a cliff, and if we don't fix this, it's going to go right over it. And having, you know, some vote without an assured outcome. Now, here's the thing. The president has indicated that he wants to do something about this, and he wants the government open. Well, we want this fixed and we want the government open. So why is there a problem here? And all this is going to take is putting everybody in the room for an extended period of time and coming up to some reasonable conclusion. This isn't one of these cases where you have people that want different outcomes. The president has said he is interested in extending these subsidies. I do want to turn to some other major news now that we were just discussing here with the Vice President, New York Attorney General, Letitia James, has now been indicted just weeks after the indictment of former FBI director James Comey, both coming after President Trump personally instructed the Attorney General to prosecute them. Those indictments were carried out by grand juries. You just heard my conversation with the Vice President. Let me ask you, do you have faith in the Justice Department? Well, I am not happy with a Justice Department that acts on commands and orders from the President. Now, the Vice President... Do you have faith in the Justice Department, though? I generally do. I have faith in our legal system. Our legal system has become incredibly more complicated with a president who will send orders via true social in a direct message to the Attorney General to prosecute people. That's not the way this is supposed to work. It's never worked this way as far as I know in the history of our country. So we have a president that's ordering DOJ to prosecute his perceived political enemies. And like my colleague, Senator Schiff said, there's a long list. I think there's more of these coming. And when you look at the details of some of these cases, it is just ridiculous that...

These individuals find themselves in this situation. You mentioned Adam Schiff. Are you concerned? Do you think that Adam Schiff should be bracing for possible legal action? I'm concerned for him and others that have to, John Bolton, you know, as an example, and others. People that wrong this president, he is looking for opportunities to attack them directly through our legal system, and that is wrong. Before I let you go, former vice president. Harris is on a national book tour right now, her book 107 days. She has some sharp words for some Democrats, including yourself. She writes that while she admired you greatly when she was considering you for her running mate, quote, he also hadn't yet had an oh blank moment in his relatively short political career. I wasn't sure how he would cope with the kind of garbage Trump would throw at him. I realized that I couldn't afford. to test Mark Kelly in that ugly grinder. What was your reaction to hearing her say you were untested? Well, I'm pretty good handling garbage. That's never been a problem. It was an honor to be considered. And we, we're trying to address all kinds of problems right now, and I'm not so much focused on a book, but I do wish her success, and I hope she sells a lot of books. As somebody who's written some books, it's hard to sell books. Do you think that Kamala Harris would be a strong candidate in 2028? Candidate, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, she was the nominee last time. You would encourage her to run. I think she would be incredibly strong. I think you're going to have, you know, a dozen, if not more, folks run in, probably on either side. Could your name be on that list, Senator? You know, there is, we're focused on trying to get the government open right now, trying to get our troops paid. I mean, there is a... still a war going on in Ukraine. We didn't even have the opportunity to talk about that. I'm hoping to get back to Ukraine this year, try to figure out what is the path forward there. We've got challenges in the Western Pacific and Indo-Pacom with the Chinese. I'm concerned that this administration is going to change our national defense strategy to focus just on the Western Hemisphere where our pacing threat is clearly China. All right. Senator Mark Kelly, thank you so much. Really appreciate your being here. When we come back, Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina joins me next. Hey there, it's Stephen Dubner, host of Freakonomics Radio, and we have just made a new show, a TV talk show. It's called Better In Person. We have the kind of guests you don't see on every other show, and we have the kind of conversations you don't hear anywhere. Frank? I'm like, yes, chef, be home with the pork. You have the opportunity to make this little corner of the world into your ideal world, your dream world. You can watch better in person on the Freakonomics YouTube channel. You'll find a new episode there every week. This is how a conversation works. Normally in these ads, you'd expect someone like me to ask you to buy something. But I want to ask you to do something different.

I'm Dave Ferenthaled, and I'm a reporter for the New York Times. I'm an investigative reporter, which means that I follow the money, inside of government and outside of government. The point of my job is to find things people are trying to hide. It involves talking to lots of people. It involves looking through lots and lots of documents. And if there weren't folks like me to go beyond the surface, to understand who is really shaping what the government does, the public will be left in the dark about what the government's doing with your tax money, what the government's doing to you through regulations and spending. If you're like me and you think this kind of journalism is important, seek out a news source that does firsthand fact-based reporting. If that's the New York Times, thank you. If that's your local paper, that's great too, because where you get your information matters. I'm Hannah. I've lost 75 pounds in 20 months with GLP1s, plus diet and exercise. On Roe, I've gone from struggling to run a mile to running farther every day. You can access FDA-approved GLP online. Get the support you need to reach your weight loss goals. Go to row.co slash weight to see if you qualify. I'm a paid row partner. 20% average weight loss in one year in non-diabetics with obesity or overweight with a weight-related medical condition versus 3.1% in placebo arm. RX only. To stay informed about serious side effects, go to row. co slash safety. Welcome back. Joining me now is Republican Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina. Senator Graham, welcome back to meet the press. Good morning. Thank you. Good morning. Thank you so much for being here. Let's start with the big story, the Middle East again. I've just heard me talking about it with both of my prior guests. On this program in July, Senator, you said, quote, there's no way you're going to negotiate an end of this war with Hamas. Do you believe that this deal will bring a lasting peace in Gaza? Well, I hope so, and I said in July. Now, what happened since July to now, basically, is it the IDF is obliterated Hamas as we know it. So hats off to Steve Witkoff and Jared and the president. The Arabs came in unlike any time before to push for the ceasefire. The Israelis have accepted things. They had not accepted before. But the ceasefire is coming. There's a perfect storm for peace brewing in the Mideast. But whether or not Hamas will disarm. whether or not there will be control of Gaza after this ceasefire that we can all live with is a very big question. There are three pieces of the puzzle. Iran, which is the weakest they've been since 1979. The Arabs, which are... closer to Trump than any time I can remember in the Mideast, closeness to a president, and Israel who trusts Trump a lot. So all these things fall together, but there'll never be peace in the Mideast until you deal with Hezbollah.

and Lebanon and the hoodies because they're proxies of Iran. But I'm excited about tomorrow. This would be a great day to get the hostages away from their bondage and their torture. And hopefully that will build to a lasting peace, but we have a long way to go. I still don't trust Hamas. Any further than I can throw them? Yes. Well, Senator, as you lay this out, there are still a lot of complicated steps that need to be taken. President Trump's 20-point plan, as you know, opens the door for Palestinian statehood. But Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said this. He said, quote, we are firmly opposed to a Palestinian state even after signing the plan. So, Senator, let me ask you, does Israel need to accept a two-state solution in order for any peace to be enduring? To my friends in Israel, there will not be normalization between Saudi Arabian Israel unless we come up with a plan to allow the Palestinians to have an independent sovereign country that doesn't threaten Israel. To my Western European friends and allies, there'll never be a Palestinian state after October 7th. as previously envisioned. The borders will have to change to make sure Israel's never attacked again. It won't be a state. It will be more like an emirate. It will probably be a protector of Saudi Arabia. But to those who want to annex the West Bank, if you tried to do that in Israel, you'd blow all this up. To those who want to push a state on Israel, as if October the 7th never happened, you're going to fail miserably. But I do believe there's a pathway forward to an independent, sovereign Palestine that Israel will can accept and live with. But that's going to take a lot of work. And none of that's possible until you get rid of Hezbollah, because Hezbollah will do the same thing in the future to blow. this up as Hamas did in the past. So you've got to keep Iran in the box. All right. I do want to turn to another war that President Trump has been focused on trying to end the war in Ukraine. Of course, Senator, it has been 58 days now since President Trump and President Vladimir Putin met in Alaska. Russia has only stepped up its attacks against Ukraine. On Saturday, President Volodymyr Zelensky renewed his plea to President Trump for long-range missiles. Do you believe the United States should supply more weapons to Ukraine right now, including those Tomahawk long-range missiles? Absolutely. I want more weapons in the hands of the Ukrainians to increase the cost of the war to Vladimir Putin. Hit his refineries, going to Russia deep and be able to destroy his oil infrastructure. He cannot prosecute this war, Vladimir Putin, without oil and gas revenue. There's two ways to deal with that. Have the Ukrainians use military force to degrade his ability to produce and sell oil, but also to go to the international community, China, India, Brazil, and have them stop.

buying cheap Russian oil. President Trump put a 25% tariff on India for buying cheap Russian oil, which keeps the war going. I hope the Europeans will follow his lead and will focus on China next. Until you deal with the revenue that Vladimir Putin gets from oil and gas, this war won't end, but long-range missiles will change the calculation militarily, and we need to go after Vladimir Putin's customers in a strong way. Secondly, we don't talk enough about this. Their 19,000 plus children been kidnapped by Russia in the occupied territories. Our First Lady Melania has been talking to the Russians and six children have been released. I want to tell you today on your program that on October the 22nd, a couple of weeks from now, the Senate Foreign Relations Committee will mark up my bill along with many others, making Russia a state sponsor of terrorism under United States law. unless they release these almost 20,000 children. We're going to do that October the 22nd. And as to my sanctions bill with 85 co-sponsors allowing the president to tariff people who buy cheap Russian oil, I want to vote on that designated date for a vote by the end of October to put more pressure. All right, a lot of news, and you heard it here first. Senator, thank you for that. I want to turn to the big issue facing Congress back at home. Of course, the Trump administration this week announcing mass layoffs in the face of this shutdown. Thousands of federal employees impacted your Republican colleague. Senator Lisa Murkowski called the layoffs punitive and said they would hurt hardworking Americans. Senator... Do you support these mass layoffs, which are not required under the rules of a shutdown? I think JD got it right. When you don't have any really money come in, you've got to make some decisions. I'm glad we're trying to find a way to pay the military. But what about the FBI? What about the CIA? What about the Secret Service? You know, we shut the government down for 35 days, Republicans trying to force the Democrats to build the border wall. Well, we eventually got the wall built, but not because we shut down the government. The subsidies that we're talking about here, if the... you know, if the Affordable Care Act is so affordable, why every time I turn around are we spending $350 billion to keep it afloat? Whether the government shut down or not, I'm not going to vote to extend these subsidies without great reform. And to my Democratic colleagues like Mark Kelly, who I like a lot, I'm not going to talk to you with the government shutdown. Senator, though, going back to this idea of layoffs, you talked about that shutdown back in 2019, 35 days. no workers were laid off. Why is it necessary now when it wasn't necessary then? Is this anything more than a political ploy? Yeah, well, you had four years of Biden where the government grew in a bunch of areas. It got very kind of out of line with common sense. So I think Trump's going to look at a chance to clean up the mess that Biden created in terms of growing the federal government, putting in policies in the federal government.

that we don't like that can only survive if you have people implementing the policies. I don't want anybody to lose their job because of a shutdown. I hate it when people get furloughed. I hate it. The military can't. Can't get paid. The FBI. I hate all that. I'm willing to vote to open the government up tomorrow to my Democratic friends. I am not going to vote to extend these subsidies. It costs $350 billion. If you make over $400,000, you get subsidies for your health care. Let's have a rational discussion, but not will the government shut down. It's up to you if you want to keep it shut down. Fine. It's not going to change how I approach health care. Let me finally ask you about these indictments that we have seen the indictment against Letitia James and James Comey as well. NBC News, again, has confirmed that that post that President Trump put on Truth Social was actually meant to be a private message to Pam Bondi. Do you think it's appropriate for the president to direct his attorney general to indict whoever he says? Well, I think it's appropriate for James Comey to answer for his conduct. Five years ago at a hearing we had in 2020 when I asked him, why didn't you tell the court about exculpatory information where the CIA gave a memo to Strach and James Comey saying there was intel that Hillary Clinton's campaign was creating the false narrative that Russia. and Trump were working together. The man who created the steel dossier recanted it in February, and he kept using the document to get warrants. So, yeah, I think the grand jury is doing the right thing. And Trump got indicted 91 times three days after he announced the president in February 15th, 243. But, Senator, I'm asking. But, Senator, I'm asking about right now. this sitting president's actions right now. It's worth noting that James. The grand jury indicted them not, yeah. Well, James Cobby and Lettichita James have said that they are, both said that they are innocent of these crimes that they've been accused of. But, Senator, very quickly. They'll have a chance to prove it. To the appearance, though, Senator, the fact that President Trump publicly called for his attorney general. to indict people. Do you think that crosses a line between the Justice Department being independent from the executive branch? I think our Justice Department, in the hands of Biden crossed every line there is to cross. I think within three days of announcing he was going to run for president in 2024. He did that in 2022. But what about Trump? He had 91 indictments. What about that? Now, I think the grand jury is going to take care of this, but you didn't care any about this. You didn't care that Letitia James made up.

charges that no one's ever faced. But Senator Biden never publicly called for Trump to be indicted. He had 90. Biden, Biden regretted that they didn't do it before the election. Jack Smith surveil my phone records that made other senators. Jack Smith introduced his brief against Trump October the 24th before the 2024 election, violating every protocol just to politicize the election. So this may bother you that people are being animal, it doesn't bother me one damn bit. And you're referencing the fact that the FBI obtained what has been referred to as basic information, date, time, length of calls. Senator, we covered a lot of ground. Two weeks for the election. Thank you. Senator, we covered a lot of ground, as we always do. Thank you so much for being here. Really appreciate it. When we come back to Nobel Peace Prize was handed out this week, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. joined to Meet the Press not long after he was awarded the prize. Our Meet the Press Minute is next. Welcome back. The Nobel Committee awarded its Peace Prize this week to Maria Corina Machado, a Venezuelan opposition leader who has spent much of the past year in hiding as she fights for democracy in her country. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. joined Meet the Press a year after he was awarded the 1964 Nobel Peace Prize, and he spoke about his commitment to nonviolent protest. I feel that we will continue to have a non-violent movement, and we will continue to find a vast majority of Negroes committed to non-violence, at least as the best tactical approach, and from a pragmatic point of view is the best strategy in dealing with the problem of racial injustice. Realism impelled me to admit, however, that when there is justice and the pursuit of justice, violence disappears, and where there is injustice, and frustration, the potentialities for violence are greater. And I would like to strongly stress the point that the more we can achieve victorious through nonviolence, the more it will be possible to keep the nonviolent discipline at the center of the movement. And when we come back, will the fragile deal between Israel and Tamas hold? The panel is next.

Welcome back. The panel is here. NBC News, Chief Justice and National Affairs correspondent Kelly O'Donnell. Amna Vaz, co-anchor of PBS News Hour, Ashley Etienne, former communications director to Vice President Harris and Nancy Pelosi, and Lonnie Chen, a fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University. Thanks to all of you for being here. Kelly, let me start with you and the Middle East, a monumental moment as President Trump prepares to travel to the Middle East. What are the implications? both here at home and nationally. We really heard the vice president tell you the Trump doctrine here. To do the bold, outrageous thing publicly toward Hamas, privately pressure Benjamin Netanyahu, and then use unconventional. tools, his son-in-law brought into negotiations. We're seeing that play out, and the president may get what he wants, the big moment, positive steps forward. What we don't know is just how fragile, how tenuous is this. There are other steps that are coming that are not resolved. And so this may be a momentary victory with an uncertain future. Clearly the president deserves credit for getting it this far. The real question is, will it be a legacy item or is this a moment? Well, Kelly takes us. to the next part of this conversation, which is that this is fragile. There are so many unknowns. What are you going to be watching for in the days and weeks ahead as someone who is so familiar with the region? I mean, it is a big deal that we are here. It's a big deal they got to phase one, credit to the president and his team. But this is also a plan that could have been agreed to over a year ago if Benjamin Netanyahu had been on board. He wasn't then. He is now, and that too is a credit to Trump. What they have so far is agreements on a few things, ceasefire, right? A partial IDF withdrawal. which they've confirmed, hostage release, which is amazing news, also release of Palestinian prisoners. What we don't know is the big picture stuff. And Lindsey Graham alluded to this, and that's where the details are. Governance long term for Gaza, full Israeli withdrawal, which we know Hamas wants to see, and the issue of disarmament. When I talked to a recent Hamas watcher, he said that is not something Hamas has agreed to. And also remember, history didn't begin October 7th. There's a lot more to deal with than the last two years. And that's so significant that Hamas has. not yet agreed, Ashley. My conversation with Senator Mark Kelly, I thought it was interesting, the way in which he answered the question, did President Trump simply put more pressure on Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu? And he did acknowledge. Part of this is because of the unique relationship between Trump and Benjamin Netanyahu. No, absolutely. And it's widely known that Benjamin Netanyahu stalled the deal under President Biden to bolster Trump's campaign. I mean, we cannot forget that. And I think that's what the senator was alluding to, but didn't say it as plainly as I did. But I'd love to just really get to the elephant in the room. You know, this is the first time ever we're going to have a president that's behind a government shutdown that's going to be traveling abroad. In this moment, the nation.

needs real leadership. So the question is, where are our leaders? You got the president that fired 4,000. workers making the situation work. You had JD Vance that was in Indiana this past week trying to rig the next election. You had Senator Speaker Johnson that's now shut down the house for three weeks, three weeks. So I just want to quote a Republican member of Congress. This is all embarrassing. And it is not an America First agenda. Well, Lonnie, what about that split screen? Here you'll have the president on the world stage touting this undisputable, huge victory. The government's at a standstill back at home. And there are a lot of 10. over a lot of different issues here. Well, yeah, look, it's a tense time, but I would say it's a remarkable accomplishment for the president to be able to be in this position, to be able to be on the cusp of this potentially really consequential deal for a difficult part of the world. I think when we look back at the president's legacy, ultimately, some of these foreign policy wins are going to be an even much bigger deal down the road than they are today. Now, there's a lot of challenges left in the world. Ukraine and Russia. What happens with China? There are a lot of things left on the table. But the fact that we are here now is a validation, I think, of a different kind of diplomacy. Now, how much of that diplomacy carries on beyond Donald Trump's presidency? We'll see. But for now, at least, it seems as though breaking the model to make it work is something the president can claim credit for. But is it working. Yeah, that is the question. Well, it has worked. Well, and Kelly, big picture, we're also seeing this president really test the limits. of his executive authority dispatching troops to Chicago to Portland, as I was discussing with the vice president. Also, these indictments handed down by the DOJ through federal grand juries of Letitia James, of... James Comey, what are you going to be watching for next, including the fact that you have reporting that John Bolton, former UN ambassador, could be next. I am struck by the fact that we're talking about the president as peacemaker overseas, but he's got a bellicose tone at home, warlike footing at home, against American cities, against his political enemies, as he defines them. So our reporting says that John Bolton could be the next to face indictment as soon as this week. One source just said soon. And, of course, this is on classified... documents information, and we have to remember he was the national security advisor to President Trump in his first term. That could be coming. I don't know how the administration assesses the political leanings of grand juries that are seated in various jurisdictions for John Bolton. It's Maryland. And Our reporting is that this, of course, would be bringing this forward. It still relies on grand jurors to make a decision, but it could come soon. That would be three in just about three weeks since the post you talked about. Ashley, how do you assess how Democrats are responding so far? I mean, I think the question we all need to be asking ourselves is where does this retribution campaign end?

You know, it's media companies. It's individuals that have come after President Trump. I mean, it's broad and it's wide. You know, wide. But I will say, I think the Democratic governors Gavin Newsom and J.B. Pritzker are really setting a new blueprint on how to attack Donald Trump. They're, you know, turning the mirror on him, making a little fun, making light of the situation. They're also fighting him in the courts, fighting him through legislation and executive orders. They're also sort of laying out a new message framework for how Democrats can contextualize the threat that. Donald Trump is posing to the nation. So that is actually working for Democrats, but the larger apparatus has to take note and start following suit. Lonnie. It's scary. It's the manipulation of legal and democratic norms by people like Gavin Newsom to redraw maps that I think is deeply problematic. Look, the cycle of lawfare doesn't end in a good place, in my view. But these are the politics that we're in. We're in a deeply conflictual politics, deeply partisan politics. I wish it would end. But as I see, I don't see any end in sight. just tit for tat. I just don't see any insight. And Omna, of course, the question of all of this, where does this all end? Yeah. Comes as there's a bigger question about whether Trump is going to actually invoke the Insurrection Act. I asked the vice president about it. He certainly didn't take it off of the table. How big of an escalation would that be in this moment? It would be enormous. And I think the big picture here is that that line is being constantly moved, right? We've now had federal troops on the ground in a number of cities. The president wants to expand. And importantly to Democratic-led city. and states. What we've seen is the president who wanted to invoke the Insurrection Act in his first term and was held back from doing so by then Secretary of Defense Mark Esper. Those moderating forces are not around him right now. This is the president who said he's worried about the enemy within. We are seeing him use the levers of government and his executive authority to go against those perceived enemies. Guys, we only have about 30 seconds left. Any idea when the government's going to reopen? Anyone want to venture a guess? I'm going to guess no time soon because there are still these differences in policy that are pretty fundamental, right? You talk about the health care differences. It doesn't appear as though Republicans are particularly interested in extending the expanded subsidies under the Affordable Care Act. And Democrats have said they're staking a lot of their political as well as policy leverage on this issue. So I don't see it anytime soon. What's working to Republicans' favors that 60% of the country has no idea what this fight is even about. I have no idea with the president. But I will say, I think Democrats need to be preparing for a day after strategy. Okay. All right, guys. Great conversation. Thank you so much. Thanks so much for watching. That is all for today. And make sure to tune into NBC Nightly News tonight for a special broadcast with Tom Yamis, live from Tel Aviv, ahead of President Trump's historic visit to the Middle East. We're back because if it's Sunday, it's meet the press.

Hey there, it's Stephen Dubner, host of Freakonomics Radio, and we have just made a new show, a TV talk show. It's called Better In Person. We have the kind of guests you don't see on every other show, and we have the kind of conversations you don't hear anywhere. Thank you. I'm like, yes, chef, people home with the pork. You have the opportunity to make this little corner of the world into your ideal world, your dream world. You can watch better in person on the Freakonomics YouTube channel. You'll find a new episode there every week. This is how a conversation works.