Progressive women are fed up & fighting back (feat. IHIP News)

This message comes from the Southern Environmental Law Center. No one voted for dirty air and water. That's why SELC is fighting back to defend the healthy environment everyone depends on. Because it's not political, it's fundamental. Learn more at selc.org. Well, I would say to the claim that we are not qualified to do this, I would say you're right. We're not. And that is sad that we have this big of an audience.

and that this many people listen to us. And it is an indictment on the Democratic Party and their messaging and on mainstream corporate media. That two women from Oklahoma started talking about politics and that we've ascended in this manner. So they're 100% right. We are not qualified. I think about it all the time. I was an interior designer two years, three years ago. I still am.

I still do projects. It's like, this is crazy. The I've Had It podcast, co-hosted by Jennifer Welch and Angie Pumps Dan Sullivan, started as a place for the two former Bravo stars to let loops and get out their petty frustrations. But over time, I've had it and its sister podcast, IHIPP News, have morphed into a political battleground. And Welch and Dan Sullivan have amassed quite an audience in the process. Videos for IHIP News, which now publishes seven days a week, often multiple times per day, regularly get hundreds of thousands. of views. And across all their platforms, Welch and Dan Sullivan have millions of followers. And as their show has grown and changed, so have their politics, moving from conservative or liberal over to

progressivism. So how did they go from trash-talking BFFs to formidable political commentators? Well, you'll have to stay tuned to hear that story. On today's show, Jennifer Welch and Angie Dan Sullivan join us to dish about their personal political journeys, why they think some women are leaving the right, and why the Democrats are struggling to unify their base. And just to be clear, I am asking Jennifer and Angie to share their opinions with me because they offer a view and how many women in this country are understanding and reacting to this political moment. Angie, Jennifer, welcome to It's Been a Minute. Thank you for having us.

Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR. A show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. And for me, spiritually, at least on my end, this feels like it's been a long time coming. I have actually been, I have kept up with y'all's show for a long time, like through all of the iterations. So this is really exciting. I first became familiar with y'all's show when you were, I think it was a lot of, actually, you specifically, Angie, you were talking about smoking in your car in the school pick up or drop off line and being judged by the other mothers. And so I was locked in from that

point. I heard that. I was like, oh, this is interesting. But, I mean, the kinds of things that you all talk about have changed a lot over time. I mean, you have become a seriously contentious political media force. I don't know. I wonder, like, what was the moment that you decided to shift gears in terms of what the show would be about? Well, I think it was kind of organic. I have always been very overtly political. And so even in those early episodes, when we're talking more about, you know, Angie Smoking or Gender Reveal Parties, you will hear me throw daggers about the Republican party or about Trump or, you know, the former president, George W. Bush, I can't help myself. And then when it became evident that Trump was running again and he was going to be the nominee,

it just, we lived in, I lived in Oklahoma City at the time where Angie is now. And when you live in a red state, surrounded by the damage that MAGA and or Republican supermajorities can do, you can't help but speak out. I have always. wanted to write wrongs when I see injustice. And so when you could see that this guy's going to run again and he should be in prison. I mean, I just don't think we could help ourselves, but to speak out. What about you, Angie? Well, I wasn't that interested in politics. I just never paid it that much attention. I mean, I grew up in a very Republican family. They're still MAGA. So I, you know, I was a registered Republican, but I didn't always vote Republican, you know, like I thought. I

thought Bill Clinton was cool because he played the saxophone. It was more about his personality and charisma than like policy. And then when Trump came on the scene, I couldn't believe that they weren't taking his phone with all this tweeting because I thought he was drunk. So I called Jennifer and I was like, why are his aides not taking his phone when he starts posting all this crazy shit? And she was like, oh, no, no, no. That's what he does all the time. And so then she referred me to some, like, different networks and different commentators about politics. And then I just went as deep. I just loved it from that point forward. Interesting. So, I mean, it sounds like, it sounds like you, like, both of you being two friends who don't necessarily share the same

exact interest in politics, at least to begin with, you didn't. But having these conversations with each other, like, you know, having both of your politics sort of change over the course of making this show, it's kind of in line with, I think, how a lot of people come to politics and how a lot of people's politics change is actually through engaging with the people in their lives, having conversations, and kind of observing the world around them. We're all sort of, I think, changeable in that way to a certain degree, which makes me wonder, though, like, I don't know, I imagine that you have one kind of audience, or perhaps you have one kind of audience when the show started. I imagine that audience. I mean, I know it's a lot bigger,

but I imagine it's quite different now. Or maybe not. Like, who's actually listening to your show? Like, what kind of people? Well, you're right that there was a shift. So when we were talking about, you know, complaining about everyday grievances, things we've had it with, I think that attracted a bipartisan crowd. And then we started talking about politics, there was a white woman meltdown in the comment section of a lot of women that thought. What did that look like? Yeah. You girls shouldn't talk about politics. You just need to talk about other stuff. I'm unfollowing you this narcissism that you need to curate your podcast for me. I don't like the direction you're going in. And it was, there was a heartbreak hotel

period. But I'm so feisty politically and always have been. I was like, this just means we need to talk about it all the more. And so when we didn't follow in line with what they wanted to, with what these women were used to the world doing, curating to their sensitivities, then, you know, people realize, oh, they actually believe in something. And I think that's the thing that's really important right now is, are your politicians, are the people that you're listening to that are commentating in the news, are the journalists? Do they believe in it or is it just transactional? And, you know, this is something we very, very, very much believe in. I mean, for years, I fought so hard in the state of Oklahoma for LGBTQ plus rights and hosted many, many, many, a fundraiser for a losing Democratic candidate.

I mean, talk about Heartbreak Hotel, trying to be a Democrat in a red state and hosting all these political parties. But the audience we have now is diverse. They're young. They're all different skin colors. They're queer. They're straight. I think you mentioned before that your husband might dabble in listening. I love a straight man listener.

You know, that's great. So it's crazy. We have boomers, Gen Xers, millennials, Gen Zers. I'll be on the streets in New York and somebody that couldn't be a day over 20s. He's like, oh, my God, Jennifer Welch, I love your podcast. And it's like, wow. I mean, that's just, it's crazy. So the reach and the audience is really insane.

Yeah. I wonder, I mean, as you are kind of like, like I said, continuing to develop in your politics, learning out loud, I mean, and growing, amassing this huge diverse audience. I mean, thinking about your journey specifically, Angie, like you are coming from this conservative background, conservative Christian background where you mentioned a lot of your family is still MAGA. you're learning and kind of changing and growing in public. Like, what has that experience been like? Well, I, you know, obviously, it wasn't overnight, like, just when the podcast started. It was, you know, long before that. But what I will say is that because I had this indoctrinated, white privilege,

you're special, you know, it's okay for you to judge people. it's okay for you to vote in a way that only affects you and not think about other people. Unless it touches your life, then it's not important. And you don't have to worry about that. That's kind of where I, you know, was as a young adult. And so how I feel about it is I've evolved politically over time. But because I did vote only for myself in my early adulthood, I feel like it's incumbent upon me now that I see the lack of empathy, the injustice, the discrimination, the homophobia,

the racism, that I have to speak up about that as kind of an amends because I didn't, I wasn't clued in, nor did I give much thought to how my vote was affecting other people. And so that's why for me it's important to kind of make amends for that. publicly. Hmm. I wonder. There's been, I mean, as you all know, there's been a focus on how white American women vote more broadly in our presidential elections.

I think specifically 2016, 2020, and 2024, a lot of attention has been on how white women are voting, who they're voting for, and why. But something that I've seen bubbling up in the past month or so, is news stories unpacking how a certain kind of white women woman is leaving the right in an uproar. They are fed up with, you know, some of the rhetoric that they're hearing and seeing. And they're not feeling it anymore. Like I said, they're leaving in an uproar. I wonder, what do you all think about that trend?

What do you all think about that move away from the right for some white women specifically? I don't trust it. I know these women. These women are wildly indoctrinated into a culture where they think the world should be curated for them. It's not popular to like Trump right now. And so they're jumping off. Do I think these women are going to come out in droves and vote for progressive candidates or vote for Democrats? No.

All we're seeing in the polling is they don't like Trump. I think the majority of these people, if for some reason there wasn't this constitutional amendment, if he ran again, I think they'd vote for him again. And so I'm not ready to whip out the welcome mat because I think when push comes to shove, most people end up going back into their media spaces. They go back to the spaces that are comfortable for them, whether it's a structure of white supremacy or a structure of internalized misogyny. They find their space back there. And so I don't think this is that newsworthy, I think, when you have an unpopular.

president that's wrecked the economy, that's a compulsive liar that has got us into a war, the approval ratings plummet. Now, I hope I'm wrong. I hope the next election, all of these women vote for Democrats, but I'm not buying it. What do you think, Angie? Well, here's the thing. I have found that having grown up with super evangelical patriarchal upbringing, like I grew up in a misogynist household without realizing it was misconduct. misogynist because that's just all I knew. And so I think so oftentimes women don't realize they're contributing to the patriarchy because of their actions and votes and the acquiescence of behaviors and comments. I didn't. It took me getting into adulthood to, you know, start seeing that.

So I would like to think that these women will get it, but I think when you're super indoctrinated and that's all you know. It makes it harder. And I'll just say, I live in Oklahoma, which is abortion banned state, and women still voted for Republican politics and politicians after their rights were taken away because they just assumed it wouldn't, it wouldn't happen to their daughters, it wouldn't happen to them. They don't have to worry about it. Kind of just this, I call it like entitlement, the entitlement of these white women to vote against their own interest because there's such a feeling that it won't happen to me, I'm different. And I latch on to that because I had that. That's where I, the space that I grew up in and where I came from. So I would

have to say, I'm not, I don't know that I think it's going to last. It takes a lot of work. go anywhere. We've got more coming up after the break. My story and my evolution from liberal to progressive, this is where I think a massive change is happening all over the country. I think independents have moved to liberal slash progressive spaces. I think liberals have moved more into progressive spaces. This message comes from BetterHelp. People talk about mental health more openly now, but asking for help can still feel hard. Better Helps 2026 state of stigma report surveyed 2,000 Americans and found that 85% believe getting support is wise, yet 74% say society discourages people from doing so. Don't let stigma stand in the way of support.

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Jennifer, I mean, even though you started off as like a self-disclosure, like atheist liberal from jump, from the jump. You have also kind of grown and changed in your politics as well over the course of the show. You've gone from being like, I think self-described liberal to what seems like, I think to many people, a pretty staunch progressive. But in some way, in so many ways, I find that perhaps the political stances that might cause many people to to qualify you as a progressive also put you, like many people who might vote democratically, out of step with the Democratic Party's establishment. Talk to me about how you see your journey reflected in the ever-growing gap between Democratic voters and the Democratic Party.

Now, this is a change that I think will manifest at the voting booth. I think a lot of women that identify as Democrats, that identify as liberals, that watch MSNBC or read more objective journalism, since 2024 have found themselves somewhat politically homeless. Because when we talk about the Democratic establishment, we talk about the ruling class, we think about Hakeem Jeffries. We think about Chuck Schumer. So when Kamala Harris lost, obviously it was devastating, sad, all the horrible things that we all experience. I was like, okay, where's the opposition? What are they doing? And I think the Democratic establishment is not listening to the base. My story and my evolution from liberal to progressive, this is where I think a massive change is happening all over the country. I think independents have moved to liberal slash progressive spaces. I think liberals have moved more into progressive spaces. And so there is a mass shift in the way they are supporting different candidates. Look no further than what happened in New York City was Zohran Mamdani and Zohran Mamdani. Took on billionaires, took on the establishment, beat Andrew Cuomo twice. Every single, the billionaire

bed wedding that happened all over Twitter, we're all going to move. This is terrible. It's, you know, it's all talk, all cat, no hattle, as we say in Oklahoma. And my shift is I've always, this is something that I think is super important, Brittany, for people to understand. The aforementioned working class women that are, you know, disenchanted with Trump or not approving of Trump's performance, they would view me where I was two years ago politically and where I am now is the exact same thing. She's a socialist, communist, liberal. The average voter does not distinguish who's a liberal, who is a progressive. They don't know what the difference is. You're thinking about it like on one side of the,

or the other side guy. I was at a party last year when my son was playing basketball. And this was in Oklahoma. And this guy is from rural Oklahoma. And his kid went to school. And he was like, yeah, so like, how liberal are you? Are you like Obama liberal? And I'm like, a little further to the left. He goes, left of Obama. They can't even imagine that Obama is a centrist, that he's center left. And this is the problem that happens in democratic spaces. is we get in these, you know, contests over progressivism versus liberalism and all of this. And for the average voter,

they don't see any distinguishing factor in that. For me personally, it is who is funding this fascism? And these people cannot be funding our politicians to. Then if they do that, that would make the politicians receiving these same funds, fascist collaborators. So I think we're seeing a huge. huge kind of desire to return to an FDR-style politics within the party where the party is servicing people, not billionaires. And I think a lot of our Democratic politicians right now are

barbershops, text, you know, threads, all these things like that, that I think people have said for a long time that they feel is missing on the left or has been missing from the Democratic Party. There is something there to what you're saying, this idea of this sort of plain spokenness, and I kind of see that reflected in the appeal that you all have with a wide-ranging audience. What do you think it is that has people so invested in the two of you and what you have to say and how you're saying it. I would say, first of all, Jennifer is a gifted communicator, and she can lace, she's way better at that than I am.

And she has always been able to put things together that I kind of have to follow. But I think what we heard in the beginning still remains true is the chemistry between the two of us and that we're not scared, like, okay, you're mad at me or, you know, you don't like me. you're going to unfollow, who cares? Like, when you're worried about pleasing everybody all the time, you please no one ever. And so we've just kind of taken the approach that we want to please ourselves. We want to be true and be honest and authentic to ourselves. And I think, I really believe people get that. I think they identify with that. Why do you think people are responding to it so strongly, though, and right now? I think in a voice,

that corporate media is both siding things. The president sent out a tweet that he wants to annihilate an entire civilization. He is saying the war's almost over and then why on earth did he start this war? They want to go to people that are confirming, no, you are not a crazy person. Everything you see, we see too. And so then you form a sense of community in the truth. And it is, I don't think that everybody that listens to us agrees with everything that we say, but I think that's weird if they did. I think that a political party, an opposition party to this fascist takeover that is happening to our country right now is a big tent party that welcomes leftists, democratic socialist, socialist, center left, hardcore capitalists. But the one thing that we have to have in common is we are not going to take. take money from the people that fund fascism. And so people are fed up. They're fed up with all of

this corporate power and they're starting to realize, oh my gosh, some of these complaints about there being a uniparty, that's a little bit true. And so I think people are drawn to true tellers. And my opinion on everything is not always 100% spot on. But I think in our community, you probably get 75, 85% consensus. And then whatever people don't agree on, we do get, you know, it's duked out in the comment section or whatever. But I think that this is, there's a thirst and a desire for people that confirm for you, the crazy crap that you're seeing, you are in fact seeing it.

Now, I mean, you all have been very forthright on your show in terms of criticizing politicians that you feel. I mean, even in this conversation, you have been very forthright. in terms of criticizing politicians that you feel are not living up to their posts, or not doing their jobs, or doing things that you feel are unethical, or things that you feel like don't match up with their publicly stated values. And yet, there are plenty of politicians that you have criticized openly that still appear on your show. I'm thinking about a recent appearance by Jack Schlossberg, who's running for office in New York.

He came on your show, and as soon as the conversation turned to the United States, government funding military campaigns on behalf of the Israeli government or, you know, whether that is in Gaza or Iran, you all asked him questions about it. And his answers were not very well received. They were not very well received by the internet. They were not very well received by you. And I would argue that he or someone on his team could have predicted that. That it's pretty well known that you guys are not going to see eye to eye on that. What do you think about that dynamic with politicians, again, that you all would openly disagree with, that already know that they're going to be grilled by you, or politicians that have already heard you say things about them, suggesting that they are unethical, suggesting that they are going about things the wrong way. They still come on your show. How do you think, like, what do you think about that and how do you think that speaks to the power of your platform in the audience that you build?

I think it's great. I think that Democrats need to do this. and over and over again. We met Jack Schlossberg on the Kamala Harris reproductive tour bus. We were actively campaigning for her, using our platform to get her women's reproductive freedom message out there. And he was on the bus at the same time we were in Pennsylvania. Really liked him. I still really like him. He reached out, wanted to come on. He reached out. Yeah, a lot of them do. And, uh, I thought great. I researched him. I saw that, and I know that the funding of war crimes in Israel is a huge issue for our audience, as it is for the Democratic base. I saw that he was ambiguous on that in my research of him prior. I think we probably agree on a lot of stuff. And I, in a very civil way, you know, I tried to offer him a million off ramps. And at some point in the interview, I said, I hope that you think about this, Jack. I hope that you really, really think about this. And I think he's made that calculation.

But here's the thing. If Jack came on and that made him think and it made him a better candidate, good. I wish that Kamala Harris, when she was running, would have gone in more spaces. Because we need to have these politicians go out, not be so risk adverse, not, you know, he believes in what he said. I fundamentally disagree with him on that. Fundamentally disagree. He wants to find the Iron Dome. He thinks there's a big difference between offensive and defensive weapons.

These are important conversations to have. This is an important part of the Democratic Party evolving. And all politicians should do it. You cannot just go into spaces where people agree with you. I think it's going to make them better candidates. I think them reading the comment section, their staff reading the comment section, and these are primaries. This is important stuff.

I think Democrats should go everywhere all the time, all at once, whatever that's saying is, I always get it wrong. And as much as I disagree with Jack Schlaasper, good on him for taking it and coming in here and sitting down and having a civilized conversation about it. I think that's such an important, healthy part of democracy.

Don't go anywhere. We've got more coming up after the break. We've got to tell these women, stop it. You've done it for two weeks. long, you have to take ownership. It is dangerous at this point.

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That's not the first time or the only time that a politician has gotten in hot water by appearing on your show. I mean, you've had some pretty contentious conversations. I'm thinking about a conversation you had with Rahm Emanuel, a conversation you've had with Cory Booker. Again, these are politicians that you've been very critical of in the past. And yet they still came on your show. And as you said, which is very interesting to me, that a lot of these politicians are reaching out. Which is interesting. It does kind of suggest that they want.

to have some, like, some engagement that's sort of back and forth. And yet I feel like so much of that is missing from like the greater sort of political messaging that I feel like I've seen from a lot of democratic politicians, almost like an unwillingness to sort of engage. Even I felt like when, you know, I live in New York City, I live in Brooklyn and watching Zohran Mamdani and Zohran Mamdani's campaign kind of coalesce over time from this long shot to then like a pretty clear winner. I remember seeing establishment Democrats in state and local politics almost seeming like kind of, it felt a little almost like, I don't know, like there wasn't even a full conflict publicly or full engagement publicly with his campaign. Even if there wasn't even necessarily

even at times, they felt like even like a full-throated like, no, I absolutely will not support this person under any circumstances. It felt a little bit like a sort of push and pull that I don't know, that wasn't the same as the sort of critical engagement that you're talking about having. Yeah, it's really interesting. Like the Cory Booker incident, he reached out. Well, first of all, I would say very pointedly that one of the things I dislike about the Democrat Party is that we do a circular firing squad all the time. Their party, they disagree. There's a wild disagreement in the Republican tent.

And yet they don't shoot at each other. And we have a really good way of holding up these purity tests that if I agree with you on 95. That's such bullshit. Rahman Manuel reached out. We were really south on kitchen table issues. We weren't really good about the family room issues. I disagree with you. I disagree with you 100 million percent.

The only room we were doing really well was the bathroom. And that's the smallest room in the house. That is such bullshit. I don't know if a part of it is they're still thinking like, oh, these women, you know, were always called like mom podcasters. Wine mom. Yeah. So I don't know if there's still that.

I don't know if it's hubris on their part. I mean, like, I doubt if I called Cory Booker right now, he'd come back on. I mean, I think that goose is probably cooked. But, you know, there's always this thought that, I talked to Medi Hassan about this once. There's always this thought that if maybe you're too aggressive on them, then all of the politicians will blackball you. Well, then I told Medi, isn't that the story? I imagine that the same way that you all have amassed this huge audience that's really invested in you, I imagine that there are also people who feel like you are not qualified to be having the conversations that you're having,

who think, you know, at the end of the day, these are two women who came to us through Bravo, and, you know, and who are they and what do they know? They said on Fox News all the time. Yeah, I mean, yes, it is said on Fox News all the time. And I'm wondering, I don't know, there also is, though, this, there is, I feel like in so many ways, as we've discussed, like the way that your show has grown, the way that you both have sort of grown and changed in your politics, is indicative, I think, of a lot of the conversations that a lot of women, American women, are having with themselves more broadly, whether they are moving further to the left, whether they are in a tug of war with their politics on the right. Why do you think it's so important that we pay attention right now to how women are thinking, evolving, changing, developing politically in this country? Why do you think this is something we should be paying attention to, especially this year during midterms? Well, I would say to the claim that we are not qualified to do this.

I would say, you're right. We're not. And that is sad that we have this big of an audience and that this many people listen to us. and it is an indictment on the Democratic Party and their messaging and on mainstream corporate media, that two women from Oklahoma started talking about politics and that we've ascended in this manner. So they're 100% right. We are not qualified. I think about it all the time.

I was an interior designer two years, three years ago. I still am. I still do projects. It's like this is crazy. But I've always been a die-hard political junkie. But it is so important that we listen and it is so important that we form communities because that's what we do as a species. Connectedness and engagement and critical thinking and making each other better is so important.

And I just want to make this note. It is super important to me the lesson here in all of this is. The Democratic Party does not listen to black women. And you might think, why are you bringing that up, Jennifer? I was going to say why are you? I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why I'm thinking of, black women are the base of the Democratic Party. Black women forever have organized and come out in droves to elect Democrats.

They have been telling us for decades, we have a policing problem in our neighborhoods. We have issues in our neighborhood. The police are indiscriminately shooting people whose hands are up. And then a lot of white women found out when the two shootings of white people happened in many Oh my God, I can't believe this happened in America. And I'm like, this has been happening in Black America this whole time. All of our civil rights, all of our humanity is connected. And so as horrific as this experience is, for me and for Angie, white privileged women, this is not a new experience in, you know, Black America. And so I think the message here is we need to listen to all

All of the voices in our party, the people who are signaling, hey, you know, we have an erosion of civil liberties here. We have human rights violations. We have dirty cops at play here. Listen to them. Because if you don't listen, then it incubates it. And it incubates it all the way to now. What do we have in the Oval?

It's a room full of dirty cops. We have a room full of dirty cops because we have continued to have two different types of justice systems, two different types of listening structures, whose crimes matter, whose crimes don't matter. And I just think there's a really important messaging in reconciling all of these things. And I think a lot of the problems that we have with MAGA go back to our historic, horrific problem with race. And I just really believe that we need to listen to black women specifically.

Angie, any final thoughts from you? Why do you think it is important that we be paying attention to how women are doing their politics in this moment? I would say women have, they're the base of the economy. They are the ones that run the household, have careers. They do everything. And to minimize them, and for them to allow it, like I allowed it. and internalize the misogy. We've got to wake up when you look at Project 25, going to Project 26, and you see all of the

different ways that this MAGA party and the Christian nationalism wants to minimize women and their role back to tradwives. As women, we need to be forward thinking and really take ownership way more than I did as a young adult and take ownership of, I have been given. the opportunity to go to school, to work, to buy a house, to have a credit card in my own name. I don't need permission from anyone. And what this Christian nationalism maga party wants is they want to take that away. So more women stay in marriages because they can't get a job and they're financially tied

and abused to these men. And it is so dangerous. And we need as women to continue to tell people, you're sitting. in privilege, but look at what is happening forward thinking. And so for me, that's where I think is we've got to tell these women, stop it. You've done it for too long. You have to take ownership. It is dangerous at this point. Well, oh my gosh, Angie, Jennifer, I have really enjoyed talking with you both today. It has been a pleasure. Thank you both so much. Thank you, Brittany. Thank you, Brittany. That was Jennifer Welch and Angie Pumps Dan Sullivan, co-hosts of the

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