8/12/26 Panel

Good morning, very theatrical music this morning. Good morning. Welcome to the roundtable and to our panel discussion. Very nice to have you with us. It is Wednesday, and we couldn't be more delighted to be in your company and to have this wonderful group together. It just means something to be together in a room talking about these issues. And hopefully you will find some interest in it, some solace in it, some some infuriation, some, some maybe even a moment of spark of idea. Who knows what could come over the next two hours, but we are on this journey together and we will begin it now. Let us introduce the folks who are in this room ready to talk about what is going on in our complicated world. We welcome you, the home listener, or wherever you are, panel at wamc.org, panel at wamc.org, and we'd love to have you with us. We welcome public policy and communications expert Teresa Bourgeois to the program. Good morning. Good morning. I'm doing well. It's a big celestial day today. I think people have heard the news. There's eclipse midday, a little partial eclipse, unless you're in Spain or up, I guess, in the Arctic or something. But here it's like a quarter or something. 10%. 10%. Is that all it is? Yeah. Okay, here it's 10%. Well, that is partial. Partial. Yeah, that's partial. But tonight, the Perseid meteor showers. Thank you. So, yeah, yeah, look up, and it's supposed to be a dark sky. I don't know if it's going to be clear here or not, but it's the moon is, you know, so it's going to be, if you get away from the city lights, you can look up and see a natural phenomenon that's awesome if you've never seen it before. Oof. I was reading an article, this is somewhat associated to what you were saying, but it was reading an article about Holland Europe. There's just this incredible rush on getting the solar eclipse glasses. Yeah. And I thought, well, my God, you know, we had so many leftover from the left. Couldn't we just like send them over? Would they should all be? Well, actually, I gave mine back at Warby Parker. They were collecting them, if I remember. Yeah. In Stavis and Pleas, they were collecting them. And then they were. We're going to read the studio. Or not. I don't know what they said they were. I bought the gig. That's right. But in any case, yeah, you can go just get out of the artificial light and look up and see the show. See the show. All right. We'll take whatever show we can get at this point. Even this one. Stephen Half is an educator who teaches drama and humanities at Poughkeepsie Day School in Poughkeepsie founded and runs. Still waters in a storm, a free one-room school for immigrant children in Bushwick, Brooklyn with a Poughkeepsie program as well. Good morning. Stephen. How are you? I'm doing great. Thank you very much. Very nice to have you here as always. Good to be here.

Jay Jockniewicz joins us. He is an editor-at-large columnist and an editorial writer for the Times Union. And good morning, sir. How are you? I'm well. How are you? I'm fine. Good. Yeah. I spent a week in a monastery last week and I was having... You didn't introduce me the way you usually do, by the way, which is relevant to this story. The semi-retired part? The semi-retired part. So I'm having lunch or dinner or something, and it's all group meals. So, you know, I'm sitting with total strangers at times. And I got into a conversation with a woman from Massachusetts. And we were talking. And somewhere along the line, I used the phrase semi-retired. And she said, are you on the radio? That's your marker. I know you. That's your marker. Well, I think people probably make a mental note of it because you say you're semi-retired and then there's this list of like 40 things that you do. But how did you start? This is what number of year of you going to the monastery? This would be about 17, 18 now. No, 18. Yeah. And you go for a week? I go for about a week. It's, yeah, it's Monday through Sunday. And I sit and I teach a little, I help teach, Kyudo, Japanese meditative archery. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Well, it's good to have you back. So are you like, you're calm and you're good? You know, I thought. I was going to have this adjustment period where I'd come in really mellow. And within a day, I had called someone a hypocritical idiot on the internet. So. Well, I see that's working. Yeah, I wrote really well. Well, it's good to have both of you back. Former vice president for editorial development at the New York Press Association. time editor of the Daily Gazette Judy Patrick is with us good morning Judy how are you good I was not at a monastery last week it was grandma camp oh the opposite of the monastery so yeah it's it's over and you have you know the kids in and then you and then you just do you do all the things that you would do at camp except you do it at grandma's right a lot you know it was rainy so there was a lot of origami And so there are pieces of paper all over my house. Well, that is lovely. I'm glad. But that sounds, that sounds. I was going to say to maybe not memorable. It was exhausting. Yeah, I bet. Yeah. Well, after it, did you call anybody a hypocritical idiot? You know, I was so out of the news that when I did the New York Times news quiz on Friday, I got like two out of ten. Oh, yeah, I don't believe that. I did. I did. Well, good morning, all welcome. It's wonderful to have you here. I appreciate it.

So much. We have primaries to talk about. Yesterday was primary day with a lot of states in this country of ours. Some of the big races, there were races in Alabama, Connecticut, Minnesota, Vermont, Wisconsin, and some of the big races, Wisconsin governor, Minnesota governor, South Carolina Special Senate, Vermont governor. So a lot going on. And here are some of the takeaways from the... the primaries. I think there are probably the major stories, but the big one is that the Democratic Socialist candidate in Wisconsin failed to win. It was a tight race. Francesca Hong, a progressive who had led in opinion polls, lost to David Crowley, a moderate Democrat, and Milwaukee County executive. So this is Milwaukee, Wisconsin, the area of which we talk about. But for where that candidate came from, but obviously for the state. at large. It was close. There is no question about it. It was a close race with Crowley bringing in 39.7 percent and Hong bringing in 39.3 percent of the vote. hong a democratic socialist had led in the polls but faced questions about whether she could win the swing state in the general election mr crowley will face representative Tom Tiffany a trump endorsed republican in november Another Midwest progressive Lieutenant Governor Peggy Flanagan of neighboring Minnesota won the high-profile Democratic Senate primary there, giving the party's left wing a mixed showing on a busy night of primaries in six states. In South Carolina, Senator Darlene Graham, the sister of the late Senator Lindsey Graham, advanced to a... Republican primary runoff against Representative Ralph Norman, a hardline conservative to run for a full term in November. In Wisconsin, Mr. Crowley, who had an endorsement of Governor Tony Evers scored a surprising win over Ms. Hong. a chef and state lawmaker who energized left-wing voters. But her candidacy worried moderate Democrats, Ms. Hong, had come under fire for writing on social media in 2020 that Thanksgiving should be canceled, though the...

Though she recently, the candidate recently walked that back, I don't know how exactly you walked that back. Turkeys, you are pardoned. She will face the former sports broadcaster for NFL on CBS, Michelle Zafoya. than with NBC, I believe. Michelle DeFoya is a Republican in the general election race for the seat held by Senator Tina Smith, a retiring Democrat. Ms. Flanagan signaled in her victory speech that she would focus on the rising cost of living ahead and noted that she prevailed despite being heavily outsped on the race by Representative Angie Craig, a moderate. South Carolina's special Senate primary was attest to President Trump's hold on the party. He had urged Republicans to coalesce behind Ms. Graham, whose brother died a month ago. She's filling her brother's seat through January and seeking a full six-year term. Her runoff against Mr. Norman, the vice chairman of the House Freedom Caucus, is scheduled for August 25th. And let's see. Lisa Demuth, the Speaker of the Minnesota House. defeated Mike Lindell, the My Pillow Chief Executive, a former, I believe, former My Pillow Chief Executive, and a leader of the election denial of movement in the Republican primary. He had been endorsed by President Trump. So, and this all came down to a question for Republicans as to who could beat, who is best suited to beat. Senator Amy Klobuchar, who secured the Democratic nomination to succeed Tim Walz, who, I hope you have your score of cards at home. To succeed Governor Tim Walz, a Democrat who declined to run for a third term amid a fraud scandal involving the state social security program. So. There's that race. So Mr. Lindell lost, and Lisa Demuth won, and will go up against Amy Klobuchar in the general election. Also, Rebecca Cook won the Democratic nomination in Wisconsin's third district, where she will challenge Representative Derrick Van Orden, a Republican. The swing district is crucial to her party's hopes of winning back the House. And let's see. There's so much going. So many things happen. Oh, Michael Alfonso, the 26-year-old Trump endorsed son-in-law of Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy won the GOP nomination to succeed Representative Tom Tiffany in his Wisconsin District. Mr. Tiffany easily won his party's nomination for governor. So that's just a little... little sampler of some of the electoral news that took place Tuesday and into the wee hours of this morning. Judy Patrick, you're shaking your head. You know, will primary season ever be over? It seems like why can't we do it all in June like a responsible state?

like New York does. I mean, it seems like this is lasting... Or a responsible democracy. Or responsible democracy. You know, what we hear is that campaigning actually doesn't start until after Labor Day, so dragging this all through the summer makes a little bit of sense. But... I in in each individual state, I'm sure they're paying attention, but from a national perspective, I am so sick of political news and up and down and, you know, Democratic Party divided and what Trump's impact on things will be. I think it keeps the, you know, the cable news networks going all of this and it shows, you know, but clearly all. What I look at when I'm looking at results is it's individual candidates. I don't think there's a mass movement one way or the other about, you know, democratic socialism or pro-Trump or anti-Trump. I think if you have a quality candidate and they perform well. that's what really matters in each individual election. The other thing I took away from yesterday is how bad polls can be because in the Wisconsin race, right? They had hung up 20 points at one point, which led to other candidates dropping out and the winner actually just came back in last week or the week before. So I think polls... play too heavy a role. We saw that last week, too, where the, the, um, else I had was way ahead and, and, and, and won by a much lower margin. I think the, the other thing, too, isn't it that is, um, even the, the, the, the, The narrative now seems to be, well, the Democratic Socialist candidate lost, which is, in the headlines, I know I have... Two journalists in the room said to be careful. Yeah, you better be. Yeah, I will. Don't worry. I respect all year. Some in the media. Some in the media. That's right. Thank you, Ira Busfeld. That will say, well, you know, this is a blow for the Democratic Socialist movement. Okay, but she lost by 0.3%. I think it's a, yes, the polls were off. Yes. Absolutely. But it still was a very, I mean, that is a very, very, very close race. So I think just to, no, she will not be the candidate, but.

I mean, it certainly shows that there is a movement afoot within that state, within that area, as well as nationally. Jay. Yeah, I think that some things did her in at the last minute or toward the end. It is a fascinating thing, and I think you're right. You know, you have to kind of look candidate by candidate. But I think writ large, there is something going on here. And it's that, you know, it's what happened in 2016 with the Republican Party where they just said, oh, the hell with it. Let's give this guy a try. And they did. And they won. And they said, we'll have seconds on that in 20. Well, they came close. You know, they tried again in 20. And then one again. And then he came back in 24. The Democrats, I think most Democrats, really want to win back Congress, if not the Senate. And at the same time, I think they're hearing when they actually listen to Democratic Socialists, I don't think they're hearing a whole lot different than they're hearing from the party's non-democratic socialist but progressive wing. I think there was somebody else that won yesterday who had very similar positions. and carried the day, but he didn't identify as a democratic socialist. So I think there's this trepidation. We want the progressivism. We want the, we want new ideas. We want that. We don't want the same old, same old. And yet, boy, we really don't want to lose this opportunity because we can't take another two years of this. So you end up with, I think, in this case, you know, because of some unfortunate things she said or stupid things she said. You know, she ended up losing. I still. I think the Lindell thing is the one that really stood out for me, though, honestly. Anything seems to be possible in politics nowadays, and I did not write off the possibility that Mike Lindell was going to walk away with the nomination. I mean, there were polls that had him ahead. I mean, I agree with you. I was watching that very closely. Wow. Yeah. And 32% of the vote. Yes. That's not insignificant, although I've said since.

Global warming started, I think. Global warming started since global warming became a thing that there would always be, I always said, 28% of the population in either party, you know, just any election, anything that is going to be crazy and gullible. And they're going to believe anything they want to believe. And we just have to accept that in the electorate and in the populace and in our civic discussion. But it's gone up. Even in, you know, and the Republicans are seeing it. You know, 32% said this wacko. Yeah, he's my guy. That's a little scary. On the other hand, I hope maybe 32% and all the money that Mike Lindell put into it. And the backing of Donald Trump will mean that this is maybe the last we hear or at least see of Mike Lindell. Yeah. Keep. I don't find him entertaining or amusing anymore. It's just I want him gone. But you can't count him out. From politics. We'll take a break in here from our other two panelists right over this.

Good morning. Welcome back to the Roundtable. Listening to music from the original soundtrack from the new film Spider-Man Brand New Day and film number one movie in the country. Whoa. I've never heard of it. Yeah, there was a new Spider-Man movie? I didn't know there was an old Spider-Man movie. I guess I didn't know the one. Is the premise that he... Everyone he loves in his life no longer recognizes him. I believe so. Hence the brand new day. Yeah. Yeah. Sounds fascinating. And so we thought that would be fun to play this morning. You can see the playlist posted online. WAMC.org slash Roundtable. So if you feel like webbing things this morning, you'll know why it was subliminal on our part. All right. We are talking about primaries, the results of the primaries yesterday, a lot going on across this country. Theresa Bourgeois, you're up. Context for these governors' races, I think it's really important to remember how important these governors' races are, particularly now for two reasons. One is it'll determine Democrat, Republican, holding the governorship during the presidential election two years from now. That'll be really given what's going on with elections and how they're being... handled by some Republicans that'll be really important particularly you know with states like Minnesota Wisconsin Michigan Ohio Pennsylvania so I think and also the census I think people forget about how important it is who's governor when you're doing the census which is in the It starts in four years, but really the process starts pretty soon to lead up to the census. So I think the context is really important who he holds these governorships. And I think a lot of the focuses on that hung loss, but I think it's really important to see that David Crowley won. And he is really interesting guy, really interesting background. Very... He will be the first African-American governor if he wins. He was very, has been very effective at the county level, but he was born into poverty. and talks about the fact that he personally has experienced eviction in the ramifications, the cascading ramifications of eviction. And so that he has worked on, you know, more comprehensive housing policy, trying to have a more effective in the Milwaukee area, also does a lot. promoting small businesses and has been effective in that regard to. And also working with police to add the mental health component to policing because, you know, police officers are expected to be everything, including mental health counselors. And so there's a lot of things that he has done that I think he brings a pretty interesting and important background to the job. And I think he's a pretty, a very, very strong.

So it's not just that she lost. I mean, I think the voter's spoken. They saw the difference and they ignored the polls and the most important poll is voting. I'm also a big fan in Minnesota of Peggy Flanagan. She was a lieutenant governor and Native American background. For those who remember Senator Paul Wellstone from Minnesota, so she comes out of the Wellstone, quote-unquote, family, and it was indeed a family. I had the privilege of not working for but working with Senator Wellstone when I worked in the Senate. He was extraordinary. But he died tragically in an airplane crash, and after he did, they created his former staffers and others, created a thing called Camp Wellstone and a whole program to try to train organizers to how to bring people together across parties, across ideas, to move public policy initiatives. And she was a trainer in Camp Wellstone for a long time and trained Tim Walz, among others, and met him and became his lieutenant governor. But she, too, has a – she was a Minneapolis Board of Education. She was on the Board of Education. She just has a very broad background, I think we'll be – a terrific governor if she can win that race. So so much has been focused on, you know, is it a democratic socialist or not? But I think these are really candidate-driven, really important, really important candidates. It'll be interesting to see if Amy Globuchar wins the governor's race, and it will be great to have a person of... Peggy Flanagan's background in the Senate, if in fact she can win that Senate race. In the hierarchy? Yes, sir. Better to be the governor of the state or a senator? Yeah. Well, it's very, very different jobs. I mean, I just think it's very important for Democrats. There's been a lot of focus on can the Democrats win the House and the Senate, right? And I just, the point I was trying to make is, and that's critical. But it's also really important of who controls the state houses in these, particularly in presidential election years and census years. And I think their Senate and Congress. executive are, you know, there's very, very different roles. In other words, why doesn't you want to be a senator anymore? Oh, Globuchar? Yeah. run something because she wants to run for president again, I guess. I'm assuming that's what she wants to do, be governor for a while, and then... So 10 months before she announced this? No, I don't think she'll run this round. I think she's young enough she can do it later. Or maybe she just wants to be an executive run stuff. For the Senate right now is a pretty tough...

Political junkies like me aren't tired of it yet. But I do wonder about the media framing of, you know, all about it was, well, did the Democratic Socialists prevail or not, as opposed to this or that candidate prevailed? I just find that very, very frustrating. Stephen. I wonder if you could help me understand the difference between... progressive and democratic socialist. So is a democratic socialist a type of progressive? And what does progressive actually mean? Because that word, I hear it used a lot and I have to admit. I don't know what it means. You know, I have a really cool idea. I think that's such a good question and such a big question. Let's take a quick break. We'll come back and then we'll try to answer it. Okay. All right. We'll do that right after this.

Good morning. Welcome back to the roundtable and to our panel discussion for this Wednesday. It is the 12th of August. And I thank you all for being here as always. Okay. When last we left you, we were, Stephen posed this question. And it was a really good question and one that seems simple on its face of progressive versus Democratic Socialist. Anybody want to take a crack at it? And when it comes to campaigning, I think what consultants are encouraging people to do is to avoid all the labels and to tell people what they stand for, which if you're a progressive, I think the idea is Medicare for All, tax the rich at a higher rate, those basic ideas because what happens when you use the Democratic socialist people equated with communism because Republicans are successfully doing that kind of rebranding on behalf of themselves against the Democrats. So I think the labels themselves are the problem. And I think what candidates need to do is articulate their positions and not get pigeonholed in a... with a label. That's the problem. The labels, I think, are the problem. I think it's too late for that. Sorry. But Jay alluded to this earlier of candidates, one candidate who embraced it, another candidate who didn't, and they basically have the same views. Right. And the views are not that far apart. The big, until you get to the root issue. And the root issue would be. And this kind of goes to your point. The root issue would be your view on capitalism itself. And progressives tend to work within that and profess to work within that framework. And democratic socialists would prefer a non-capitalist. society. I mean, that is fundamentally it. What's interesting about that, you mentioned, you know, that the danger is that Republicans are going to compare them to communists. Some years ago, I took a piece when I was opinion editor from a U. Albany professor, yeah, who said that, you know, she was a little tired of hearing progressive Democrats use the, use that phrase at all, use socialist socialism as a, um, as an identifying marker, she said, if you're socialist, you are just one step away from communist. She was not saying that derogatorily. I was surprised. I didn't learn until I got very far into the piece or maybe to her tagline that she does profess to be a communist. So she was just saying, just admit what you, just admit that you don't want a capitalist society. And, you know, that's how she saw it. I, you know, my problem with the label Democratic Socialists was that early in the Israel-Gaza conflict, the New York City.

Democratic Socialists were not disavowing chance of from the river to the sea and so forth and came out as appearing to be. And I don't think there was any, they made any bones about appearing to be anti-Israel altogether. And the eradication of the state was something that some of the members were calling for. And, you know, it's something I couldn't get behind personally. So I've had a. I think they've tried to be careful about that issue and that what you're seeing is, and where you do see a nexus of progressivism and democratic socialism is that people on the more liberal end of the Democratic Party are starting to say, we should not be giving no strings attached aid to Israel, given what it's doing in Gaza. Well, I think that there are, there's two things going on here. There are actual definitional descriptions of a democratic socialist versus a socialist versus a communist.

Right. And they, there are different, they have different platforms, different, right? Ideologies and theory. But I think a lot of that's gotten lost. But you do have, you know, Bernie and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez pushing this democratic socialist agenda and people in. verbally denigrating Democrats, calling the establishment, right? You have to be either democratic socialist or your establishment. And if you're establishment, then you take corporate money and you're corrupt and you're not getting anything done and you're not speaking for the people. And I mean, I... Again, I don't want to get going on Bernie, but here I go. In any case, so that is a problem, and you have this, if people haven't seen it yet, you have this interview, this Fox interview with this chair of the Democratic Socialists who they went through their platform. What do you believe in? Abolishing the Senate. Oh, yes. Abolishing the police, yes. Closing the prisons. Closing all the prisons. Yes, that's in our platform. And she went through, you know, taking it off one by one. And so that becomes, so then, of course, the Republicans are loving that because they're saying, and I listen to it on the way in today, if you listen to conservative radio all the way in, it's this, you know, they're going to bring us communists and how are we going to, you know, we've got to get these people out of there because these are all really just communists. They're going to destroy our country. And so it is problematic. It's problematic that it demonizes people with expertise who believe. the Democrats have a broad tent and that moderates and others can be involved and that we need to bring everybody together and find a consensus agenda because that's disregarded by a lot of the folks. But Al-Sayyed in Michigan, he will say, I'm a capitalist, I'm not a Democratic socialist, right? Although they've tagged him with that. So in any case, I think it is complex. I think that the Democrats... are because of this, the Democrats have a much rougher road to hoe between now and election day. But I think the other thing that's worth pointing out that happened last night, it happened in Michigan, it's happened in a number of primaries, is a tremendous number of people who voted, particularly Democrats and independents. People are voting, and that's the most crucial thing. And Republicans, not so much. Republicans not so much. There was a chart that I saw. Lawrence O'Donnell had a chart comparing the number of Republicans voting, the number of Democrats and independents, and by far Democrats and independents coming out to vote for Democrats. Did that help, Stephen? Yes, very much. I mean, sometimes when I hear campaign slogans, it's sort of like...

in animal farm. I'm rereading it now to teach my students in the fall. And their slogan, four legs good, two legs bad. Sometimes that's what it feels like and that there's not enough information. embedded in a slogan to know what they actually represent. And I think I would like the media to do a little bit better job with this as well because they're really on this Democratic Socialist bandwagon and some in the media, sorry. I think a better job could be done in terms of really digging into the individual candidates and what they stand for. I also think a lot of people share exactly what you're finding. And I... I haven't done any poll or anything that can prove this. But I think a lot of people have signed on to democratic socialism or been willing to say, yeah, I'll call myself that, thinking that they've signed on to like Swedish or European style socialism, which is a whole different thing. And they think that's what this is. And as you pointed out, you know, if you do the checklist off the Democratic Socialists, their actual agenda, it's going to be a very different thing. And they'll say not. And I think that's what happened with Hung, is that people started. looking at what was she really for, and that's not what they were for. But I think that the most important thing that needs to happen is to compare what are you going to get if you vote Republican versus what are you going to get if you vote Democrat. So if you care about health care, if you care about infrastructure, if you care about education, if you care about rebuilding the State Department, if you care about science, if you care about... you know, the environment, if you care about our national parks and not literally tearing them apart, then the, you know, Democrats, whether they're moderate or conservative or liberal Democrats or Democratic socialists, it's, you know, far better bet health care across the board than, I mean, we've seen with Trump what you get and we've seen that the Republicans are not going to cross Trump. And so I think that's the clear distinction that needs to be drawn and that these range of Democrats and independents need to pull together now and get it done. Stephen, anything else you want to add? Well, just I heard a – I read a poll. about the ideas of proportional representation and multiple parties, like some European countries have, and that actually once people have these options, these...

alternatives explain to them that a majority, a strong majority, really like the idea of proportional representation, and they're so sick of the two-party system that they want more parties, they want more choices. And I wonder what that would do for what we've generally called progressives if they had their own parties. Would they sort of cancel each other out? You'd pull apart the... Form a coalition. You'd strengthen the Republicans. What you really... What Democrats really need to do, and it's always said their big tent party. I'm sorry, did you... No, no. I mean, you really need to... What Democrats really are is pulling together various fractions of groups, moderates, progressives. You know, it's a broad spectrum, which are Democrats, that if it's working effectively... They're all brought together and bring in some independence and really get more people. The key is there's too many people on the sidelines and not voting is a vote. It's a choice. And the key is, that's what happened. How did President Obama become President Obama? He brought lots more people to the voting booth, right? People who were on the sidelines. He brought them in and he... you know, engage them enough to get them to vote. Let's hold it there for a moment. We'll take a break when we come back after top of the hour. We will go to new subjects and we welcome you. Panel at wamc.org. I'll throw in some letters to. We haven't gotten to those yet. We have a few and I'd like to read those. We welcome you. Panel at wamc.org. Panel at wamc.org. We'll be back right after this.

Good morning. Welcome back to the roundtable and to our panel discussion this morning. Very nice to have you with us. Six minutes past the hour of 10 o'clock on this 12th day of August. We have Teresa Borgia, Stephen Haff. Jay Jocknowitz and Judy Patrick. We welcome you panel at wamc.org. We were talking about the primaries that took place yesterday. I do want to move on to other subjects, but as I promised, we have letters, and I want to get to a few of those to give you a sampling of some of the things that we have in the mailbag. Carl writes, when Soviet Union's breadlines are used to create, used to create fear of democratic socialists, remember that we had breadlines during the Great Depression. This was in the United States, a strong democratic and capitalist country. What saved us was FDR's work government projects, the CCC, WPA, and more. These were democratic socialist type projects, which the Titans of Industry hated and tried to stop ironic, isn't it? Says Carl. Then we go to Peter. Great discussion. Thanks. Stephen, great question. I am a progressive Democrat, and I will enthusiastically vote for a Democratic socialist over a moderate Democrat. Moderate Democrats have not been fighters, shoddy caps. And they are largely responsible for the fact that Congress has been unable to make real improvements in the conditions of most. Shouty caps. Americans for decades. No, I do not endorse the principles in all the principles in the DS platform, but I do support most of their demands. That from Peter. Can I? Yes, of course. I feel compelled to first of all say that I think that Democrats, moderate Democrats, have made a difference in people's lives. I think the Biden administration had one of the most successful legislative agendas in a long time with the infrastructure bill and clean energy agenda and a whole host of other legislative achievements that seem to be forgotten. And I think if you look at somebody like Bernie Bernie Sanders, He is rhetorically active, but what's his legislative record? And remember, he is the leading, he's the minority leader on what's called the Help Committee. That's the committee that focuses on health care and education and job training and all of those things. What has he achieved legislatively? What has he brought?

to the four in all those issues because if you say the Democrats aren't doing well on those issues well the top Democrat that's supposed to be leading that agenda when I worked in the Senate it was Senator Robert F. Kennedy Jr. really shaping the discussion around minimum wage and job training and those kinds of things and you don't see him doing that successfully but you have to recognize the poor showing the democratic party in general is showing in polling i mean it the brand is is under attack and i think it is perceived as not fighting hard enough and it's not so much on legislative issues which you count very well What it is, it's more rhetorically. They seem to be just not doing enough to stand up to what is happening from the Republicans, from the Trump administration. And it could be, you know, Cory Booker came up and did that longs, that, what, the 24-hour. Yeah, the 24-hour speed. The filibuster. I think that's what Republicans are, or the Democrats are looking for. And not so much the practical things that really probably. are more effective or more valuable in the long term. But I think the Democratic brand has a problem. And I think the moderates are to blame for it because they don't want to step on too many toes. Well, I guess we'll agree to disagree. I mean, I think the problem, what's not working in the Congress right now are the Republicans in the House and Senate are not doing their job in standing up against Trump. Certainly. And, yeah, I mean, I think the other thing that we didn't mention in this governor's race in Wisconsin, we talked about the Democratic side, but I think it's really important to note that on the Republican side, the person who won is Tom Tiffany, and he is an active election denier. And I think that that really... It will be a really important test to see if someone who is an active election denier is going to win a seat as governor because that will be, you know, a big problem. And why the Republicans are allowing, you know, candidate qualities a thing. Why are the Republicans allowing their candidate, picking as their candidate that they put forward as a key election denier? Manhattan Assembly member Deborah Glick wrote to us and said when I ran and won as the first LGBTQ member of the state legislature, I was called a radical and thought of myself progressive in opposition to liberal, which had become to be seen as too moderate. Now I would prefer to call myself super liberal because I see progressive as denigrating experience and embracing a superficial view of complex issues. However, I think we, the Democrats, need to return to our roots. of standing for principles, caring for those who have too little and not those who have too much. So public education, public health, civic rights, rights for women, as they have eroded, care for environment, et cetera. And that again from Deborah Glick. Thank you. Thank you for checking in. Always nice to hear from you.

Also, we hear this from Kathy of Socrates. I'm disappointed in the media coverage of the Democratic primaries. There are a couple of contests with DSA members running, but compare that with a number of military veterans running for office as Democrats or the ministers who are running. The evidence shows that the Democratic Party has a big, wide tent with wonderful candidates who are suited to their districts or their states. Progressive ideas which will benefit working Americans are shared across. that big tent. It's a good point. Absolutely. I think when you look at the coverage, you assume this was, in a broad sense, establishment Democrats versus Democratic Socialists, and it wasn't. It's a handful. As the Times, their cover, in all fairness, was if you read the coverage, it does cover that gamut. But I think as, you know, people coming to it, well, you know, and this maybe goes to the The point of what you were saying, Judy, when I listen to, when I actually get a chance to catch a Democrat in Congress doing a speech, that's pretty good speeches. They're pretty fiery speeches going on. But for some reason. We're not, I don't know, maybe they just don't rise to the spectacle of, you know, 40 votes to try to get Obamacare undone. And, you know, Josh Hawley being a nut and this person being a nut. You know, the spectacle of what the Republicans have done has, it draws the cameras, it draws the reporters, it draws the coverage. And. It's still going on, but yeah, it feels like there's something missing. I don't know how I made that segue, but, well, it goes to the writer's point. It's theater, right? Yeah. It's staging. Maybe they need a drama coach, an acting coach, somebody who can give them a... that vitality that you're looking for widespread. But, you know, yesterday on the day that you have Hakeem Jeffries in New Jersey with a group of members of Congress and local elected officials and clergy and others talking about the detention center there and the ICE Detention Center. how inhumane it is and the type of people who are being detained and that the 55 people have died in these detention centers, right? And that you had Democrats all around the country over the last few days. going to detention. Congressman Tonko went out to Buffalo all over the country. You have these stories now of individual stories about what's happening in these detention centers because it was an organized effort by the Democrats over a three or four day period of time to do that. But competing against that, you have the president of the United States at a press conference essentially, you know, sowing enormous confusion about vaccines.

and you have all the news about his, whatever it will call him, Escapade situation with the plane, the plane, the plane. And so this issue about people unjustly in ICE detention doesn't break through. So my eyes kind of glaze over when I ever see a bunch of congresspeople behind a microphone. I look at a bit of grandstanding. What they might have better done yesterday was there's a story out today about how immigration officials are going to get these gloves that deliver automatic shocks through the fingertips. There's the story. Use that. Say, this is what the, you know, the Trump administration is doing. This is something specific, concrete, that people will go. are you kidding? They're going to be able to just grab me and give me a shock. This is crazy. And I think that is something the Democrats might better latch on to because, again, the dog and pony shows across the country, the organized, I appreciate the effort to do that. But as a reporter, I just, I'm not even sure they'll get a lot of coverage over that. It's just, it's standard political machinations that aren't suited to this new social media age. Again, gloves. that will electrify me? I'm sure that was talked about yesterday, but what they're trying to do is with individual stories, they had people there who'd been American citizens who'd been detained for weeks and weeks, or people who had legal status. This one woman, she was a business owner. She had legal status. She's been here for a long time. She was detained. Her son was detained. Her husband, and they were beaten. I don't know, beaten up, but they were injured in the whole process. illegally and so they were right there I mean that's the kind of thing that's happening but it's not breaking I don't know it's not breaking through but well I mean I read about it so it did break through a little bit but I do want to move on to other topics but here's the last letter that I'll read and it it was one that that was very common with many, many other letters. It's from Eric who says one problem with the controversy over democratic socialism versus progressivism and moderate democratic approaches is that it has distracted us from the more immediate challenge to our country posed by Trump, namely fascism. That from Eric. Thank you. All right, let's move on and go to other issues and other things making news on this day. We welcome you. Panel at wamc.org. Panel at wamc.org. We have a couple of moments before, well, a few. Before we go to the... Bottom of the hour break. So let me do this, which is the story about, and Teresa mentioned this, but...

The Democrats demanding a briefing on Trump's secret flight from Turkey. More information is coming out about this. We are seeing video where you can actually see the catering truck and where it went and went from one side of the plane to the other side of the plane. And now that we know more, you can see it in front of you, obviously, knowing the backstory. From the Washington Post, Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer says that the White House kept Congress in the dark about last month's ruse to avoid an Iranian threat. He said that the flight that... President Donald Trump took out of Turkey last month the day after the Washington Post first reported that an Iranian assassination threat prompted the White House to conduct an elaborate ruse to conceal the president's travel. means that the White House should immediately brief Congress on that secret flight. It's unacceptable that Congress was kept in the dark and instead learned about the serious threat through press reports. Chuck Schumer said in a statement, Trump has put American sons and daughters in harm's way by getting into an unnecessary and reckless war, and this administration has reportedly refused to provide Congress and the public with the transparency they deserve. On July 8th, Trump flew secretly from Turkey on an alternate military aircraft while the... White House said he was aboard the old Air Force One. After boarding the old Air Force One in view of cameras, Trump was secretly shuttled to an Air Force C-32A and a catering truck without the knowledge of media and some White House staff aboard the plane. The Senator's statement reveals the White House concealed the operation, at least from Democratic members of Congress. In addition to Chuck Schumer, Senator Mark Warner of Virginia, the top Democrat on the Senate Intelligence Committee, also was not briefed on the assassination threat and the subsequent ruse. According to a spokesperson from his office, both are members of the gang of eight, the group of leaders from both parties and both houses of Congress who traditionally received top secret briefings from the executive branch on intelligence and sensitive covert operations. Jay. You know, when I first... looked at this. I was, it felt like, you know, all those, and we see this theater on both sides of the aisle, you know, every time the president stumbles, it's, you know, someone in Congress wants to have an investigation to at least keep the story alive for a few days, a few more days. But in this case, there's a lot that needs to be unpacked.

Not just for Congress and us annoying folks in the media, but the American people as well. You know, Operation Butterball, as I call it. It was just, it may have seemed kind of, you know, weird and numerous and, you know, lots of, God, this has been a great era for cartoonists. But it goes to the... The few of them that are left. Yeah. It goes to the bigger issue that, okay, so we started with the Qatari jet not being safe enough. Now we find out that the real Air Force one wasn't apparently safe enough for this president to fly on and that there are some serious threats to the President of the United States that are serious enough that they have to pull a little mission like this. Now, maybe this happens more often than we think, but it... falls in a bigger context of here's a president who is trying to project narratives that are false, that we're well-armed, even as the Pentagon sends out memos to the defense contractors, hey, you got to speed it up, we're running out of missiles, that we're in control of the Middle East when we're not in control of the Strait of Hormuz. We're losing control. We may be losing control of the Red Sea. Red Sea, Red Sea. Who knows what's happening with Hamas and peace in Gaza. And we constantly have a president saying he's got it all under control. And he... doesn't have it all under control. And that's the underlying issue here that the Democrats, you know, hopefully are going to press here, is that you're not safe. We're not safe. The world isn't safe. And you keep telling us that, you know, we're invincible. We're the best. We're nobody, you know, Iran's destroyed and disarmed and every. And none of this is true. That is serious. And it's all the more serious because we have an administration with a request pending. for $1.5 trillion for a defense budget that they're having trouble managing at $900 million. And they're managing quite irresponsibly. They blew through half of our Patriot missiles. We are at the precipice of not being able to defend bases overseas. That is extraordinary. That's scary. Stephen? Well, you mentioned the political cartoons about this episode, and it made me think that, and I forget who said this, but somebody once said that if you can make a tyrant look ridiculous, that's the beginning of his downfall. And he just sort of provided an image, at least a mental image for a lot of people, that sort of fits his profile of being a coward and hiding. I mean, I know they're trying to protect the president and it wasn't his decision necessarily. But just the image of him hiding in a catering truck is, I think, it's emblematic of his...

his hypocrisy, he's willing to send other people's children to their deaths in this war, and there he is running into this catering truck. And it's just, fair or not, that's the image that sticks in my mind as something ridiculous. And then I was really upset at the idea of using a lot of other people as decoys. So all the people who he ran away from... are on planes that could be targeted to get him. And apparently they didn't even know. They didn't even know they were being used in that way. So that's distressing. And again, I don't know the details of how the Secret Service operates. I don't know what the relationship is between them and the president. But it just, that really upset me, the idea that other people were unwittingly used as decoys. You know, there's so much we don't know. We don't know, for example, how serious the threat was. Maggie Haberman, the New York Times reporter who follows Trump so closely and has a great book about the first year out. She noted that, you know, there's a siege mentality. in the Trump administration. And Donald Trump is seriously concerned about assassination attempts. I mean, justifiably so. He's been shot at a number of times. And Iran has long had a desire to kill him. And so was this a serious assassination attempt or did they overreact? She is reporting that the decision was made at the last minute, a hurried decision to do this. But so initially I didn't think it was any of the Congress's business, what the Secret Service does in terms of protecting the president. But I agree with you, Jay, that I think we need to really know how serious these efforts are to assassinate the president and what we need to do to justify it. The other thing that I should say from a media perspective is, of course, this breaks a trust with the media. We rely to. I mean, there have been previous. attempts to use decoys, most notably Bill Clinton, back when they used an actual decoy Bill Clinton, a look-alike. But at that point, at least the head of the White House Correspondents Association was briefed on it. And so there was some recognition that the public in general has, they need to be accountable to us in some respect.

Who's next? Reportedly, there have been previous suggestions of similar operations where the press and others are used as decoys and White House staff, you know, whether it's the communications structure or whatever, have said, no, that's not going to happen. And let's figure out a different way to do this. I mean, let's just establish the record. It's essential that efforts be made to protect the President of the United States. No matter what you feel about the individual, it is absolutely essential that all efforts be made to protect the President of the United States. I think we can all agree on that, right? But I think it's important to step back and see how he and all of those people ended up in this position. They ended up in this position because the President of the United States accepted. a quote-unquote gift from Qatar of a plane that he wanted to turn into the Air Force One. And that was the first mistake. And the fact that people around him, including security people, said absolutely not. And that, quote, unquote, free plane has cost the American taxpayers more than a billion dollars just to get it. air ready, and that doesn't include the fact that they had to buy a separate plane, a second plane, so that they could train the pilots because they need to be specially trained. And so while the actual cutter plane was being fit up, they had to have a parallel effort to train pilots. And now, because it wasn't completely done and he insisted on using that plane, They then had to bring in a separate plane because it wasn't safe enough to fly in that area, right? And if you just bring in Air Force One, then he's a clear target, right? Because everybody knows he's there. So they may well have done the best that they could do in the moment. with short notice, should have never used people. Well, it's easy for me to say should have never used people as targets. I mean, it's interesting to think about the fact that the Pete Hegseth did not stay on the other plane. And Marco Rubio, who you would think you'd want your secretary of state leaving with you, they left Marco Rubio on the decoy plane and put Pete Hegseth on the other. I mean, that in itself is a decision that needs to be examined. But I just think there's a cascading and very, very, very costly set of circumstances here that began with a decision to not say, no, Mr. President, we can't take a plane from Qatar. Not only does it violate the emoluments clause, but it's not going to be safe. And think about... everybody listening if you're involved in some project in your community what could your state do with a billion dollars right and it's much more than a billion dollars can you imagine i mean they're talking about essentially defunding dismantling head start because of all the changes are proposing to make what could you do with a billion dollars for head start right or i was reading i look at the military

No, go ahead. Military Times has a story yesterday about housing and about the military housing that's filled with mold and the plastic is falling down. They showed pictures of these places that our military folks put the billion dollars into giving proper housing and pay to our military families. We'll pause there. We'll take a break. We'll come back. We'll continue the conversation right after this. Good morning. Welcome back to the roundtable and to our panel discussion. Very nice to have you with us. It is 34 minutes past 10 o'clock, the 12th of August, and we thank you for being here. So let's talk about this for a moment, how Iran adapted its attacks as U.S. munitions, war munitions dwindled. We brought this up a couple of times during our conversation over the last 90 minutes, but looking at it head on during five intense days last month, Iran launched waves of drones and missiles at U.S. troops and on three bases in Jim Jordan, hoping to break through the formidable... American air defenses, using advanced missiles that can suddenly change course. Oh, I just had an idea. Iran, I thought it was off. I don't know what's going on. Iran pummeled the base's defensive systems, forcing the Americans to burn through scarce supplies of Patriot Interceptors. On the fifth day, the Iranians broke through, a missile struck pre-fabricated housing units. at one of the bases on July 17, killing three U.S. soldiers wounding more than 100. Pentagon officials later acknowledged aircraft damaged in Jim Jordan that week and that scores of other troops were injured. We shot down almost all the missile Secretary of State Marco Rubio said when asked about the fatal attack, one leaked through. Teresa. I think there was one line in this story that really jumped out at me, and it said on a single day, I'm quoting here, on a single day during that deadly week last month, according to two U.S. officials, American forces in the Middle East fired about 50 Patriot Interceptors, which cost about $4 million each. And I just thought, you know, there are all these... the billion dollar, there's a lot of big numbers that go thrown around, but just think about, in this one case, one day, in one region of the fighting, not the full cost, but just the cost of the missiles alone, 50 Patriot missiles, that's $200 million. $200 million. Now, I'd like to, again, ask our listeners, what could your community or your state or your project or your program or the thing you care about do is $200 million? Again, I'm pretty fixated right now on the effort to destabilize the Head Start program across the United States. I had federal funding per slot about $12,000 to $13,000.

for a year. So that means in just those few hours in that one day, you could have provided 38,462 students in Head Start for a year. I mean, I know it's kind of a crazy apples and oranges thing, but... Remember, this was a war of choice. This was a direction that both Republicans and Democrats who'd been urged by Benjamin Netanyahu previously presidents to go in and do this, rather than negotiated settlement, negotiated agreements to deal with nuclear weapons, they... you know, Benjamin Netanyahu had urged previous presidents to go in and do this. And all of them had said no, because they knew that it was a potential quagmire. So we are now in this quagmire, and the costs, the costs for money, the costs of damage to our alliances. And we went to Trump JD Vance administration. We didn't go. It's the Trump JD Vance administration. It's destabilized our alliances. It's damaging the region. We need a way out. But I just, it's so deeply disturbing this cost. And what else we could be doing with these resources? It's such a difficult time that we're in. You know, certainly you could look at the decision to use so many of these missiles. and question it and rightfully so. But what you're hearing from Republicans at this juncture is, well, why wasn't there, why isn't there a deep enough, why weren't there more missiles and why can't Congress get on board giving us the money we need to build it back up? And so when you want to look at things from, you know, in all-purpose perspective, those are the kinds of issues we need to talk about how many anti, you know, how many defensive missiles do? we need? I can remember a time in my life when people were saying, we have too much, we have too many missiles. We have, you know, we need to draw it down and for the sake of world peace. But at this point, I think Republicans are using this as a rationale for building up the, you know, the military industrial complex even more. But, Judy, the, remember Secretary of Defense, Pete Hegseth? Secretary of War, Teresa. Oh, I'm sorry. I followed the AP style book, don't you? Yes, I do. He said that they'd obliterated all of these weapons. And it turns out... He said it. Marco Rubio said it. The president said it. The vice president said it. Turns out that wasn't true because the Iranians just went in. They did bomb it, but they just went in and dug it out because they were in deep. Right? And Pete Hegseth, we have an intelligence, good intelligence. They had to have known that it wasn't true. Right, right. And again, you can certainly blame.

should be laid at the feet of the current administration for that. And then their judgment was horrendous. But what I'm telling you, though, is that there is a segment of our population that will say, well, we need more. Let's not put blame on anyone. Let's just build this back up and let's give the military more money instead of spending places like Head Start. Which they won't do. Right. I have a question. I wonder if anyone in the administration knows how the Vietnam War turned out. I mean, again, a severe underdog story, right? The colossus that is the United States against these poor people hiding in tunnels and being resourceful and coming at you from... all different directions. I mean, it's the same. Patient waiting. It's the same. Yeah, it's the same. And so how could we not learn from that huge, painful loss and all the tragedy that unfolded from it? And then I also notice this is the kind of thing that... In our mythology, we celebrate the underdog. So if Iran were not our enemy, people might be cheering for the low budget, ingenious, brave act. Like, you know, like when Luke... destroys the death star by hitting the one little flaw in its design and blows up everything and brings down the empire or Achilles with his heel. Or Ukrainians with the drones. Yes, exactly. This is what's happening right now. Great analogy. We usually love a good underdog story and now we're on the wrong end of it. It also points the need for, you know, as I alluded to before, this $1.5 trillion request that they've got on the defense budget that it really does. And there's so much politics attached to that as Teresa knows. probably best of all of us, that in Congress, a lot of these decisions are not made on what's best for military strategy. It's what's best for some congressman's district or some senator's state in terms of, you know, a military construction facility or base or a fort. But... It really points to the need. And we're watching two wars unfold of asymmetrical warfare in Ukraine as well as Iran that really call into question. I mean, if everybody sees that you can wage these battles not on a shoestring, but we're shooting.

what, $4 million missiles? 50 of them and a couple of dollars on one day. Against drones that cost thousands of dollars, not millions of dollars. And we have 34 days worth of, in an attack, if the Jim Jordan attack represented one day, we have 34 days worth of missiles left. That's it. One month of concerted effort by Iran, assuming it's got a lot of drones handy and it seems to, as well as other missiles, you know, a good concerted effort for one month would leave us. Helpless. Not helpless. But it would, you know, I had a friend who was in the military serving in Africa and talked about those those. you know, surface to surface missiles, the shoulder-fired missiles coming into the base. And it's like, you're sitting there having dinner and bam, you're, you know, this thing comes through the roof. So we have to take a break. Okay. I mean, the question I have is that if you are a congressional representative or a Senate candidate and you're going home to your district and say you're a Republican member, how do you answer this question? You talk about the need. And unfortunately, if you're going to Grot in Connecticut, for example, and you want to have a serious discussion about how many submarines you want to build. But how do you defend your votes and then say, okay. But we're out of these munitions that we desperately need for a war that dot, dot, dot. Yeah. And if you're on the side of the president who started that war that has depleted those missiles. And at the same time, how do you defend the ICE budget that you, the House or Senate, the Trump vans ice budget? Right. I think they need to be questioned about both of those things. Well, you fall back on a ridiculous argument, which is, well, we were left with the weakened military by Joe Biden. But that's not true. And we don't want Iran to have nuclear weapons. And you'll hear that. They just keeps... That's it. It's just circular. They just keep saying this is Biden. Biden left it. This is what they said the other. Trump said the other day. He says it all the time. Biden left all of those weapons in Afghanistan. It's just... stupid I mean, that bears no... I like that. And I would say that I would trust, more than I trust the administration, I would normally trust the military to be having these discussions because this is life and death for them. Well, this is their people. But the problem is they've purged. They are in an active, ongoing purge of naysayers in the military. But Senator Mark Kelly has said over and over again from the beginning, yes,

These folks are incredibly talented. You cannot win this from the air. You have to either put boots on the ground, which we shouldn't do, or you have to get to the negotiation table, one of the two. You cannot win this thing from the air. And said that from the very beginning. And in the meantime, what's China doing? They're getting stronger and stronger, and they're not firing their weapons systems, right? They're our biggest economic and otherwise adversary. and they are getting stronger and stronger by the day. We'll take a break. We'll be right back after this. Good morning. Welcome back to the roundtable and to our panel discussion and just about 12 minutes or so left with this outstanding group. And we welcome your letters. Last call for those. Panel at wamc.org. Panel at wamc.com. Let us go to what probably will be our final story for this morning. And I think it's a very interesting one that I wanted to bring to everyone's attention. That is the University of Michigan announcing yesterday that they will make First semester grades pass or fail to encourage students to try different classes and lesson fears of what a low grade could mean. So they are easing grading to help improve student mental health. The plan goes into effect in the fall of 2027 at the University's College of Literature, Science and the Arts. It is intended to relieve pressure on freshmen and help them start strong and curb the mental health crisis. unfolding among college age individuals. The university said in a statement, it is a pass-fail style grade. They want students to have an easier time entering academic life. Under the plan, first semester letter grades will still be recorded internally by the school for things like compliance reporting and eligibility for academic honors, the university said. Student transcripts, however, will reflect either pass for each course or no credit. First semester grades will not factor into grade. point averages Stephen half good idea about idea

I think it's great. Where I teach at Poughkeepsie Day School, we have no grades. The teachers write narrative reports that just describe the students' work and progress and make recommendations, but there's no grades. And when I was at Yale, when I was in graduate school at Yale, it was only pass, high pass, or fail. And it's a huge relief not to have to worry about. grades. And because I think for two reasons, well, one, because there is almost no meaningful information in a grade. You see a letter or a number. There's no story there. There's no sense of the scope of someone's imagination or the progress they've made over the semester. And also, it creates so much anxiety. I've actually seen kids. vomiting before taking a state test. And these are like nine-year-olds throwing up when they come for after-school help because of the stress. But what do you do about, I'm sorry to interrupt, but what do you do about that? I asked this question because my nephew just took the bar exam. And the question, I said, how did it go? And the question, and his answer was, Joe, I could not believe how many people were in the halls just throwing up. It was unbelievable. He said, like, I was just, he said, and, like, that was stressful enough for me. And I said, well, I mean, like, when you were a kid, you were Puky McGee, how did you, how did you not throw up? And he said, no, I got it, I had it together, Joe. Okay, fine. But. That's interesting to me. Yeah. Well, I mean, so can we do something to keep that from going down the line as far as someone who has passed, has graduated law school and is still going into a test with those anxieties and fears? Well, I think it means slowing things down, being more patient with the process of education and evaluation. And I think... Storytelling is a big part of it. If the student can tell their story and others can vouch for their story, I would accept that more than I would agree. And the thing is, humans learn automatically. No matter what we're doing or where we are, it's just what we do, even unconsciously. So when you're in the middle of a test or when you're anticipating and you're throwing up, what is being learned is the question? What is the lesson? There's information you're required to give on your exam. And by the way, at the end of my term at Yale, I had four. eight-hour days of written examinations. So they got me in the end. I mean, I passed, but, you know, it was a brutal amount of stress. I couldn't sleep at night. And so what are we learning from these events? Really? What do we learn? We're learning that society is hostile towards students. And then you have to wonder, well, why? And grades are often...

used as leverage by teachers to make students do things that the students don't want to do. Whereas if we did explore what their intrinsic motivation could be for learning, I think we'd open many doors. Like my ESL students, my adult ESL students, highly motivated. They don't need a test. They are there to learn every day as much as they can. They keep asking me to have more classes. So anyway, those are, I have a lot of strong feelings about that, just having been through it myself and then all my years as a teacher at different levels. I want to hear from the other panelists, but just a quick question for you is do you, because I've heard this argument and even mentioned in this article, but the impact of COVID on this. Oh, yeah. Well, COVID, you know, separated people, isolated people. And I think one of the problems with high stakes testing is you're all alone. Whereas a lot of work that gets done, say, in science and mathematics, is done collaboratively. So people in isolation are going to be really stressed out. I think we need to imagine something different where people can do things together.

Judy? I'm the baby boomer in the room, and I'm going to say this is a horrible idea. Oh, man. I think the first semester of college is one where students need to realize what the real world will mean to them. I know too many people who teach college nowadays that the kids don't come to class. They don't do their... the reports, the teachers are bending over backwards to let them do what they need to do. There's not that work ethic in that generation. And maybe my generation is expecting too much of society that we want people to, you know, we expect them to work, you know, 50, 60 hour weeks like we did. We expect them once they pass a bar exam to go before a judge and argue a case without throwing up. I mean, I think education should be a progression. I certainly agree that kids. are tested too often and it does put pressure on them but learning to cope with that pressure is a good thing and whether or not tests are meant to teach children anything I think it's For many people in education, it's meant to be a judge of how well the students have progressed and what they need to do in order to bring them to the place where they need to be going forward in terms of their math skills, their reading skills. And I have no doubt the ESL people are motivated to learn. And you don't have to give them a test or have a test as a goal. But I think... There are certain times in your life, especially when you're a college freshman, where you would rather go to the keg party than study or finish the test. And I think grades are something that do. Also, they're still recording the grades, they say, in the background. And so you better be sure that that person who wants to be the valedictorian of the college class, they're still under pressure because they know that grade is still being registered. So sorry. We have two minutes. Anybody else? Yeah, if I remember right, we had the choice with not, we couldn't do it all through college, but we had choices in college to take things past, fail to a certain extent. And I never took advantage of it. I'm one of those freaks who enjoyed testing. Like I walked out of the regions going, that was really fun. That was really interesting reading, the reading examples that they, the reading exercises you had to do. That's weird. I would come out and go, I didn't know that. I'm with you, Jay. I'm with you. I love that. I loved it. So, you know, all right. So I'm not the perfect person to run this question by. But you talk about the real world. The real world is... It varies. There are some jobs in the real world where ABCDEF or ABCDF matters or the numbers matter or how good your lawyer was or how good your doctor was at science. These things matter. On the other hand, our performance reviews, I'm thinking of at work, completely changed over the years. The best performance reviews were the ones where I went in and the innovative editors before this became the standard.

We're saying, let's just talk. Let's, why don't you write your performance review first and then give me and we'll compare notes and we'll talk. And they were fantastic. They set the whole tone for a professional discussion that went forward. But that's, you know, that's one job in, you know, a very vast nation of many different industries that have different standards. I don't know where this is going. I'll be fascinated to see how it goes. We'll end it there. for this Wednesday edition of the Roundtable panel. My thanks to Jay Jocknowett, Stephen Havre, Judy Patrick, and Teresa Borgia. We welcome your letters, as always. Thank you so much for being a part. We'll continue our conversation right after this.