What an Ohio EPA decision on data center wastewater discharge means for the environment, the industry

The Ohio EPA dropped a proposal that would have made it easier for data centers to discharge their wastewater into freshwater. The decision came after what the agency called a significant volume of comments against the plan. This is Cincinnati Edition on WVXU. I'm Lucy May. Joining me now to discuss the environmental implications of that decision and what it means for the data center industry, our freshwater accountability project managing director, Leah Harper. Logistics President, Doug Swain, and Politico Environment Reporter Miranda Wilson. Thank you all for being here today. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks so much. Yeah. Miranda, can you tell us more about what this Ohio EPA proposal would have done, what the Ohio EPA was considering? Yeah, so it would have created what's known as a general permit for data centers in Ohio to discharge their wastewater directly into a river or stream or a lake. General permits are common for other industries, but this was the first I had seen where a state was proposing one, specifically for a data center for data center projects. The main distinction with this type of permit is you kind of establish the limits and requirements ahead of time, and they apply at a blanket scale for projects that apply. And so now without that permit, it's just kind of going back to the status quo, which is individual permits for data center wastewater. Okay, so the idea was there would be kind of these thresholds, and if the project met those thresholds, they would get automatically permitted, but that's what the Ohio EPA decided. That's the proposal they decided to drop. Correct. And as you mentioned, that was following a lot of public interest and public comments, including from some lawmakers in Ohio. Leah, did your organization have concerns about that proposal? Yeah, immediately we recognized that this was fast-tracking discharges without the necessary regulations and oversight, and we were especially dismayed about the kind of cavalier statement that this... general permit would degrade the waters of the state. And we believe that the waters of the state are already highly degraded, especially Southeast Ohio with fracking and frack waste, injection wells leaking. So I kind of saw that this could be a repeat of something that in the future we would maybe regret and not be able to roll back. So we certainly had to reach out to our partners and colleagues to alert them and to point out some of the downsides of this fast-tracking proposal. Doug, it sounds like part of the idea behind this was to kind of streamline this permitting process. Is this a change that the industry was pushing for? What would it have meant for data centers if the Ohio EPA had followed through on that proposal? I don't think it was something that necessarily, I mean, you know, I'm looking at data center projects from multiple states, so not just Ohio.

And I really, a lot of the water issues and a lot of the concerns deal with the ongoing process, the ongoing operation of the data center, you know, and using the use of the water. And, you know, the industry has really trended more toward a closed loop system for the most part. um insensitivity to water concerns and so forth but this of course is dealing with you know the startup and the commissioning of those data centers and what happens at water so that's that's That hasn't been a real focus. Having said that, I think in Ohio, you had so many data centers coming online and you had a backlog of permits. I think the economic development officials as well as the data center operators and even the EPA, for that matter, were looking at ways to try to speed up this process and streamlining so they could get these things through what was becoming a backlog. And so I think the intentions were well. I mean, I think they were good intentions. I think sometimes people hear and confuse different facts about, you know, somebody may have heard that and heard about the millions of gallons that data centers potentially use and confuse that with what this issue is, which is really the startup or the commission of those data centers. And, you know, anything data centers these days, everybody kind of raises her. you know, eyebrows a little bit and says what's going on there and very sensitive to a lot of the issues around data centers. But I think that's what was happening. I honestly don't hear a lot about that proposal, though, from people in the industry. I mean, I think the group. The groups that were really in front line of really getting these things permitted and so forth with the operators probably dealt with that a little bit. And again, it was just really trying to speed that whole process up. Okay. And I do want to talk about water consumption a little bit later in the conversation. But Miranda, first, how do data centers typically discharge their wastewater? What do you see, you know, around the country with that? Data centers typically send their wastewater to a wastewater treatment plant. The same treatment plants often that our sewage goes to. I think this is common because it's probably easier to work out with your local wastewater utility. You know, hey, this is how much wastewater I'm going to generate. Here's what. contaminants might be in it, rather than having to apply for a permit from your state or maybe even from the EPA in some states to discharge directly into a river or something like that. So, yeah, sending it to a treatment plan is definitely the most common. Okay. We're talking about how data centers wastewater discharge.

how data centers discharge wastewater, I should say, and a recent decision by the Ohio EPA. Do you have questions or comments? Give us a call at 513-419-7100, or you can email talk at wvxu.org. Doug, I do want to get back to that comment you made about the use of water, and because I have heard concerns about that. I know you have about the water that data centers are using. How do data centers typically use water in their operations? Where does water figure into all this? Well, the water is used as a cooling mechanism for the heat that's given off from all the CPUs and processors and so forth in the racks throughout the data center. And early on, and certainly for the larger data centers, it has been, and really, to a large extent, still is more efficient to use water. It's cheaper. It's, you know. Rather than trying to use air to cool all that. Yes, the water is more efficient. These give off an ever-increasing amount of heat, you know, within there. And water happens to be what can cool that down most efficiently and effectively. But what has happened over the last handful of years, and which really is... You know, if you figure it takes a year or so to design most of these things and then a year or so to get them built, that's just now kind of coming in line. Most of the systems and most of the data centers today operate with what is known as a closed loop system. Those do not use the tremendous amounts of water that you see referenced in articles. You know, this data center uses millions of gallons a day or what have you. You know, most of them use a closed loop system. So those systems don't really use any more than a typical industrial building or other types of buildings. You know, they have domestic use that's within the office space and they have fire suppression. And, you know, the only the most of the water. The only other water that those would use that would be maybe a little above normal would just be the startup process that would go in there. So most of those, and that really transpired because of a couple of reasons. One, the sensitivity towards water use in a lot of these communities and the scarcity of it, you know, going into communities that don't have the water available there for them. It also is, as these systems have gotten more advanced over the years, they throw off more heat. So it really required you to have more efficient ways to cool those down. And as you've developed in these closed-loop systems, They can be highly efficient in doing that. However, there's a little bit of a trade-off in that they use more power. So if you look at these large campuses, some of them still, if they had their druthers, would prefer to use water because it can be more efficient, and especially if there's a limited amount of power, which we all know there is. So, you know, the water can be more efficient from that standpoint. But those aren't, you know, that water is, that's more of an evaporative system.

that happens in those, even in those waters where they're consuming millions of gallons, 95% of the water evaporates, and then you have 5% that you have to do washdowns and then creates what is known as wastewater there. So there is a little bit of wastewater even with those systems. But I think with all the closed-loop systems, there are most of the wastewater treatment that we're discussing as part of this EPA proposal, are really the startup in the commissioning where they'll flush the systems to get all the minerals out and clean the pipes before they put the final solution in. And I might add also that becomes somewhat more of an issue, I think. with this EPA proposal, maybe as it relates to rural areas that don't have, you know, sanitary sewer that they can put the wastewater in. They're talking about, you know, running off, which you would need a permit in any event. You do need a permit whenever you discharge that. But that's, I think, you know, because these data centers have been developed to where there's infrastructure with power and so forth. Some of them are rural communities or areas that don't have the capacity and the sanitary, you know, sewer to be able to deal with that. Those different utilities set up, yeah. Right. So they try to deal with it in other ways. Now, if you have a closed loop system, you could take that, you know, it's usually a smaller amount of water, but you could take it and pour it in a truck and take it somewhere that can dispose of it properly. Miranda, is there anything else you want to add about these closed loop systems, how they work, you know, what's involved with those in terms of water usage and that sort of thing? Yeah. So I think as Doug mentioned, I mean, closed loop. basically means you're using water continuously. So through a pipe that is sealed to help keep the data center cool without exposing that water to the air. And it definitely is an efficient means of cooling when you're using in terms of water-based cooling. But my understanding is there's often a second loop. So, you know, I've never been inside one of these data centers. But basically... that closed loop cooling for a lot of these hyperscale data centers isn't necessarily enough to keep the entire facility cool. So even though that part of the cooling design is going to be water efficient, the data center still might be using evaporative cooling for that second loop. Or they could be using air cooling, but I guess the caveat I would add is just that closed loop doesn't necessarily mean that the data center is using. no water or not very much water. Okay. We have a caller on the line. Hi, Nicole. Thanks for listening. Thanks for calling. What's your question? Hi.

I had a question regarding, you know, sort of the chemicals that are used to treat the water before it's put into data center's cooling system. I heard somewhere that PFAS or Forever Chemicals are among sort of these treatment agents that, you know, make it so maybe it doesn't clog as much or it's more effective at temperature regulation. And then also, you know, Um, regarding like... the regulations as to certain limits of Phaas that are acceptable in drinking water. I know that some of those policies shifted around and actually caused, like, our local source of water to change from, you know, one plant over to another due to the fact that, you know, oh, well, now the Phaas that were there that were, you know, totally acceptable, now are too much. I guess, you know, how that sort of plays in to the conversation. Because when people think about the runoff water, you know, it's, oh, well, it's just water. I mean, what's in there? I guess is my main question. Okay. Thanks, Nicole. Doug, have you heard about the chemicals that are used in the water before they're sent through these cooling systems? Well, it's typically a glycol solution, I think, in the most instances that's added, you know, to the... to the water. We're speaking about the ongoing operation, not the flush out of that. And I think it varies a lot between the users. the exact density of it and how they may use it and what even maybe the chemicals they use. It's a very proprietary. The cooling, how these different operators cool these systems, it's very proprietary, along with a lot of the other systems. They don't want competitors to know because they feel like they have a more efficient way or cost-effective way to do it, and they don't want competitors copying it to get an edge. But it is, I think in most cases, it's a glycol-type system, but I don't know much deeper than that. Miranda, what have you been able to learn about? the kinds of chemicals that are added to the water or even that appear in wastewater because of flushing processes and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, I've heard glycol as well. Regarding PFAS, generally speaking, data centers aren't adding PFAS, you know, into the water that they're using. There is PFAS used in the manufacturing of semiconductors, but I don't think there's evidence that the wastewater generally is, you know, coming into contact with that PFAS in those semiconductor chips.

But there is one type of cooling that's called immersion cooling, which is not super common for data centers, but that often involves using liquid substances that can contain PFAS, but that's not a very common way to cool data centers. In terms of the chemicals that are generally getting you know, ending up in the wastewater from data centers. If you think about evaporative cooling, you know, the type of cooling that uses water, that process tends to concentrate whatever was in the water to begin with. So the wastewater that comes out of that is, you know, might contain things like total dissolved solids, maybe some heavy metals, maybe things like nutrients, which can cause algal blooms. So they're not necessarily chemicals that a local utility can't deal with, but they can be in concentrated levels because of the evaporative process. Okay. Thanks so much for your call, Nicole. We appreciate it. We've got a lot more to talk about it, and we will continue our conversation after a short break and later in the program dispelling myths about antidepressants. This is Cincinnati Edition. You're listening to Cincinnati Edition on WVXU. I'm Lucy May. We're back with our conversation about how data centers discharge their wastewater and a recent Ohio EPA decision. My guests are Freshwater Accountability Project, Managing Director, Leah Harper, Logistics President, Doug Swain, and Politico Environment Reporter Miranda Wilson. You can join the conversation. Call 513-419-7100, or you can email... at WVXU.org. Leah, before the break, we were talking about the kinds of substances that can be in data center wastewater and the evaporative process and what can be left behind there. Is your group concerned with what could be in the wastewater when it's discharged? Is it more about the temperature of water that's discharged? What are your big concerns there? Well, both actually, because the temperature, you know, summers aren't getting any cooler. And the data centers themselves can create heat domes. So certainly water is a main concern in Ohio because there was a central Ohio water study to look at the water balance. um in that region of the state and that needs to be done wherever there's a proliferation of heavy water use by industry before that industry can come in because we have to characterize exactly what is in that waste and i'm concerned often by the overuse uh perhaps of proprietary designations because once again i have to draw an analogy to fracking in which we found out too late that there are forever pfas chemicals

used by that industry and as far as I know it's still allowed. So I believe that we have to have more of a full disclosure. by industry to actually do the scientific studies to know what's actually concentrated because when you're using incoming water like you do from the Maumee River, which is my drinking water source and Metis Building a thousand acre data center right outside of my home here in Bowling Green. I'm very concerned about the Maumee River because it's been known to have proliferation of bacteria to even to the point that it even damages the ability to use it as a drinking water source as you probably know so this is where we need a full characterization a while ago freshwater was involved in a lawsuit it was too bad that we had to go to that extent but there was a frack waste processor discharging directly to a wastewater treatment plant and it was killing the bugs and we knew right away that this you know cause and effect was there and yet we had to prove it I believe that the industry needs to be held more responsibility for being more transparent and providing full disclosure of each individual data center and what that could be. Because certainly there's a big difference between water sources, a big difference between data centers, and a big difference between, you know, and the regulations that may not have caught up with the industry. And when you try to put that genie back in the bottle sometimes, it's very costly. And often those costs are externalized upon us, the ratepayers or the taxpayer. Doug, I want to give you a chance to respond to those concerns that Leah just raised. Yeah, I, you know, I'm a proponent of the development of data centers, of course, but, you know, I don't disagree with some of the things she said. I think that... the data center operators and developers need to be held to standards. I don't suggest that anybody try to bypass those. I think they should have proper wastewater treatment facilities for the water that is being discharged, whether it's, you know, these closed-loop systems and the commissionings or what have you. And that those, that, and that needs to be built into the development plans. You know, so I don't disagree with some of the things she said. I do think, though, that from what I know of the proposal that they put out there, I don't know that if it was really meant to water down the regulations or the standards for getting permits for that, I think it was trying to, in an effort to try to speed up that process to aid in the development, I don't think they were really trying to water that process down. But that's just my opinion. We got an email from a listener who wants to talk about closed loop systems. The emailer writes, these are dirty, polluting systems, which effectively are also a welfare system for the rich as they use NDAs and garner government favors. proprietary, another way to hide what's happening? Doug, what do you think about that? Well, that's...

Well, it's not really true. It's kind of a conspiratorial way of, you know, describing the process. I mean, there are a lot of companies that have NDAs associated with them for a whole bunch of reasons. They have to do with, you know, land pricing. It has to do with competitors. It has to do with sometimes their own employees if they're moving locations. It's a part of the process that's meant to make everything more efficient, not less efficient. And I understand why people have issues with that. But at some point. in the process, people are going to know who it is. And a lot of times the community leaders know earlier rather than later who that company is. And, you know, as it deals with wastewater, I mean, data centers aren't the only group that gets permits to discharge wastewater. I mean, schools do, office buildings, your geothermal systems, your, you know, all types of things are out there, businesses, industries that use this. So I just think it's people have chosen to. They've found data centers kind of an easy target because of some other issues surrounding water power, et cetera. And so there's some hot buttons there. And so everybody kind of coalesces around bashing data centers. But I don't look at that way. I think that it's not that much different than a typical business that would come into a community necessarily and try to scout out a location and compare that location with two or three other potential locations. Yeah. Miranda, you talked about how most data centers have their wastewater go through a wastewater utility. What are you finding are small utilities equipped to oversee these developments and really monitor the wastewater they produce? Are they familiar with the kinds of chemicals and things that can be in this wastewater, especially when these systems are flushed and cleaned and that sort of thing? Yeah, I think there are definitely some challenges that have come up across the country. You know, this is a new, we've had data centers for decades, but the types of data centers we're getting now are newer. They're of a much larger scale. So these are new projects for a lot of communities. And, you know, the construction of the closed loop systems. is from from my reporting what i found has kind of raised the most concerns with wastewater so far um so you know in loudon county um loudon county virginia which is the largest concentration of data centers in the world, their wastewater utility has a whole special process where they really monitor the construction of these closed-loop systems very closely, and they require the data centers to test the water that they are using to clean and flush out the loops before they're operating before they can even send it to... back to that sewage treatment plant. And then they verify what's in it themselves. The utility does that. But in other communities where these projects are newer, there have been some challenges. One that got a lot of attention was in Cheyenne, Wyoming, the construction of a closed loop system.

when that got flushed out, according to the water utility in that community, it ended up discharging this rare bacteria to their treatment facility that they couldn't treat, and that caused a lot of concerns there. So yeah, I definitely think that in some cases this is a big, you know, big types of projects, and it can cause challenges for local communities, and there's also cost implications as well sometimes. Maybe you have to expand your wastewater treatment plant. Maybe you have to build a new well, something like that, to serve these facilities. So yeah, lots of challenges. Doug, you mentioned that the industry has really been focused on water consumption and these closed loose systems to try to make water use more efficient. How is the industry addressing concerns about wastewater? Are you familiar with what the industry is doing about that? It's interesting. I've not heard a lot of discussion about the wastewater specifically, as I alluded to early in the show. But I will tell you in general that all of the operators and all of the people we have dealt with are very sensitive to economic sustainability issues. And they're sensitive to the communities they're going into and sensitive to how they're doing business. You know, these are groups that are coming in, unlike the Bitcoin miners that kind of came and went and they knew they were only going to be there for a couple years. These are groups that are planting flags that will be there for 10, 15, 20 years, given the amount of investment in the facilities. So they're very concerned, especially when you go into the rural areas of what... you know, the community is, you know, what is their impact they're having on that community, good and bad. So I haven't heard a lot of them specifically, but I just know in general they're very sensitive to those types of issues. And is it the closed loop systems that the industry is using to try to reduce the amount of water that's used or are they getting more efficient? Absolutely. That was, and it really was a function was a lot of groups, a lot of locations didn't necessarily have the access to that type of water unless you're on top of an aquifer or something. rural areas, the aquifers, those are issues to the farmers. So, you know, everybody, you know, so that's part of it. Yeah. Well, I've been talking with Freshwater Accountability Project Managing Director, Leah Harper, logistics president, Doug Swain, and Politico Environment Reporter Miranda Wilson. Thank you all so much for your time today. Up next, dispelling myths about antidepressants. This is Cincinnati Edition.