Parenting in the age of artificial intelligence

Welcome to the Sound of Ideas from Ideostream Public Media. I'm Stephanie Haney. Thank you for being with us. As artificial intelligence enters nurseries, playrooms, and classrooms, parents are being sold a, quote, smart childhood at every turn. With mainstream use of AI, the power of parent talk and human interaction in childhood development has become even more clear. In her latest book, Human Raised, Nurturing Connection, Curiosity, and Lifelong Learning in the Age of AI. Author, Dr. Dana Suskin, reveals the possibilities and perils of using AI and related technologies for child rearing. What do parents and caregivers need to know to assess individual technologies and foster the skills needed to thrive growing up in an AI-driven future? She recently came to the City Club of Cleveland for a conversation all about the use of technology while raising children that was with child psychologist Dr. Lisa DeMore, a frequent guest here on The Sound of Ideas. We'll bring you that conversation today. Today's show is recorded, so we can't take your calls, but you can always send us an email at SOI at ideostream.org or message us on Instagram at the Sound of Ideas. And now we take you over to the City Club of Cleveland with Dr. Lisa DeMore in conversation with Dr. Dana Suskin. I'm going to start with a very basic question, but I think a very important one. Writing books is a big undertaking, and there has to sort of be a fire in your belly, something that makes you feel like, I have to do this, or I have to do this again. What made you write this book? What was happening? Internally, externally, that you're like, okay, time to write a book. Yeah. For my friends here, they've heard before, after my last book, it was going to be the last book. I say that every time. I'm never doing this again. I am never doing this again. It's like having children. It's like having children. You're like, okay, this is perfect. And then you're like, yeah. So. But I actually felt incredibly compelled. As mentioned, my work has always been centered on the power of human connection, especially in the early years for building children's capacity. And my incredible partners from P&C grew up great are here, and they've been with me throughout my professional journey of really how do you support relationships in the early years so children can thrive. But honestly, from a clinical standpoint, probably just a few years, a few decades ago when I started, my clinics used to be noisy, bustling. moments of chaos with children laughing and crying, crawling on the floor, parents trying to navigate it all. And suddenly in these last few years, there's been a quieting, like an eerie quiet. And for me, who's always studied the power of connection, I was like, oh my goodness, you know, my whole life, I'm a pediatric cochlear implant surgeon. My life has been about how do you ensure that all children have the power of talk and interaction to wire their

brains and get them ready for life and success. I run a center, the TMW Center, which is about supporting parents and caregivers in this powerful role. And then suddenly, you know, we have this new technology, this new powerful technology that can mimic the talk and interaction. that literally can wire a child's brain. And I was like, oh, we best really think this through because we've learned from previous... tech revolutions that it can come fast and furious. And, you know, parents, policymakers, myself, were not ready. So in some ways, I wrote this book as a roadmap for parents and society at large. But I also used it as an opportunity to think this area deeply through. So it was for all of those reasons that I wrote human-race. Makes sense. Makes sense. So back to that waiting room. And I know what you mean, where, you know, we're sort of used to if we care for kids. Like the waiting room is kind of chaos and it's kind of loud and it takes a long time to clean it up at the end of the day. So you notice this waiting room going quiet. And I think it gets into some stage setting I want to do of... When we think about AI and kids, I think people tend to think more about the teenagers I care for, right, than getting companions, them, you know, using it to cheat on their homework, stuff like that. What I loved about your book is it really shined a light on, this is going to happen much earlier in development, where AI can start to have a role in people's lives, young people's lives, interfere with development. But it's not immediately obvious how. So like, what is happening in the waiting room that's making it go quiet? What are the places where AI stands to interfere with the development of a three-year-old, four-year-old, like in that department? Yeah. I mean, I think of anybody, I'm so, thank you for the books for PNC. If you look at the cover and you see the word raised, you see that the AI is grayed out, right? And most people, when they look at it, they don't see that immediately. And that's sort of a metaphor for it actually sneaking in, you know, without us even sort of realizing it. And when I talk to parents, you know, in my clinic, many of them don't even realize, you know, that AI is already very much a part of their lives. I mean, they often think about screens, which is definitely a pulling of attention. But now things like, you know, on YouTube, educational content is a lot of AI generally.

generated garbage. I mean, it's, I call it toddler misinformation. Yeah. You know, at a huge scale, you know, the the bassinet that have embedded sleep technology to understand what's going on with sleep, to AI tutors, to even, you know, you say AI companions, I know it's a huge issue in adolescence, but, you know, you can actually walk into many of these stores and see these plush toys that are embedded with large language models, the same ones that we use for, you know, meal planning embedded. So it is already... That can talk to kids or interact with kids. They can talk. interact, that can, you know, start a relationship. And I think that's the biggest issue, right? Technology up until this point, the screens, it's been passive, right? It's been a one-way street, whether it's TV, the Gutenberg Press to the current technology, we're sucked in, we're engaged. But now all of a sudden, we have technology that can simulate a relationship. And we're such social beings that early on we... it can develop a relationship, but as in early childhood and adolescence, relationships are the core to learning to be human, to learning. And so it is a significant issue that we need to think through. Okay. So in terms of what's in front of kids for entertainment? Yes. the toys, the environments around them that can, where AI can take the role that was typically taken by a loving adult. Yes. Right, that these are the things we want to be mindful of. Okay, so to then get into the weeds of it. One of the key frameworks that you propose in the book is this hope framework that's very useful to sort of navigating this space. And there's a key idea for each letter. And we're just going to go through them one at a time because I was looking at my questions and looking at the framework, and I was like, these go together. Great. So H is for a human connection is irreplaceable. So I actually want to take us back to your 30 million words work. My first question was, why'd you write the book? And my second question always is like, well, why you? Right, why you? So what was it from your past work that made it clear, not only does this book need to be written, I'm a person to write it. So why would I be the person to write it? I can't even answer that question other than to say that I figured if the power of talk and interaction in the science of early brain development was so compelling to

you know, a simple surgeon, and I don't say that like in a joking way. Like, you know, we're surgeons. We don't talk a lot. We don't write a lot of books. But I was so enthralled by this research of early brain development that literally talk and interaction, wires a child's brain that the love of a parent and caregiver allowed them to be true brain architects. I was like, oh my gosh, if this was powerful enough to pull me out of an operating room, and it's hard to pull surgeons out of the operating room, you know. It's a really great place to hang out. But... But I realized that, well, then that was the origins of my first book. Then other people would want to know. I didn't think, oh, this was going to influence the national. It just seemed like, oh, my gosh, this is such cool science. Everybody should know it, because I didn't know it. I didn't even learn it in med school. And so, you know, it changed the course of my professional career, 100%. So, you know, the last decade and a half, I won't admit how long I've been doing this. We get to this point of the age of AI. I am, you know, we've built a huge research program. We do really, I think, important work working with parents and caregivers in allowing them to understand the power of their talk and interaction. And about bringing down barriers, right? The science that we do is about, you know, cochlear implants is removing a barrier to human connection for children in homes with spoken language. Education is a form of barrier, like social policies are another way to bring down barriers to allow children to have more connection. And now we've got this new AI, which represents probably the most pivotal barrier that could be placed between an adult and child and their relationship. I felt... compelled. You know, I don't know if I was the right person, but I did it. No, but I always think at the right person, because their path has taken them there, and that you, just to make sure everyone knows what incredible work you do, in doing cochlear implants, you make it so that children who couldn't hear, can hear, and it's not just turning on the hearing, it's lighting up their whole brain in their ability to interact in these meaningful ways. And so you may have started at the ears, but you ended at the brain. Right? And that's what got you here, is that if it's this interaction, if the talking and the being in connection in this way has all of these neurological implications, super exciting for 30 million words, super exciting for ears, but like it also opens up this other question about, well, what if the adults go quiet? Yeah. And the AI comes into that space. Okay. Oh, owning our imperfections. So I love this. This saw my alley, right? And the headline in my world is friction makes us grow. Friction makes us grow. And one of the things that's so tricky about AI is that it's designed to make our worlds more and more friction less.

Talk us through how that then happens between caregiver and child when the friction goes away and the benefits of keeping that friction in place. Yeah. So I'll tell you, you know... One of the biggest revelations for me was really understanding the power of friction, as you say. I mean, this has been your world. I love this. And actually, in your book, Untangled, and I know we're not supposed to. Like, I learned, I learned even more about the power of friction. And. And I don't think I really realized it while in the first part of my journey, you know, in the 30 million words journey, because I had seen it through the lens of talk and interaction, building a child's brain. So in the program that we run, we have something called the three T's for building a child's brain. Tune in, talk more, take turns. It's how you help parents, you know, connect with their children. But I had never seen the friction part of it. And in some ways, like the misunderstandings, the ruptures, and repairs just seemed like a bug in the system, like, oh, it's like a throwaway. But the amazing thing about AI coming into our world, and everybody knows about its frictionless, sort of sycophantic way. I've never felt so smart and good about every idea I had until I talked to Claude. Anybody else feel that way? All right, it's not just me. But learning about the power of that friction, helping children understand, you know, through good enough parenting, you know, children develop theory of mind and the fact that they can be, you know, have a caregiver who misunderstands them, repairs it, that, you know, it affects their whole life. And the reason I'm so excited about talking with you is that, you know, early childhood doesn't get a lot of airplay. We know that, right? And certainly not in the age of AI. I fundamentally believe that this is one of the most important discussions because it maps into adolescence and it maps into everything. So going off script to, it wasn't script, but I'm trying to make sure I'm answering your question, the fact that, oh, owning your imperfections, if anybody out there is a good enough parent, I mean, if you're perfect, you don't have to listen to it, it is actually how young children learn. to navigate the human world and learn. So that's, and the productive struggle on the other side of children is how they learn as well. So owning your imperfections. 100%. And shout out to Donald Winnicott, who's the one who came up with the phrase, good enough parenting. And his thinking was, okay, infants, we want to meet their needs quickly. But before too long, you have to let kids get disappointed, frustrated.

annoyed because they have to learn how to deal with disappointment and frustration and annoyance and if systems come in that make that all go away you can't function in the world if you can't tolerate frustration and imagine why that person do that right if you can't do that with your mind right so AI threatens that and we've got to be careful and I'll tell you honestly like it's with my own children that are almost young adults. I mean, as parents, you know, you never stop parenting. And it actually impacted how I parent. One of my children was going through a hard time, like break up, you know, all of that. And I was like, you know, you can do hard things. And in the past, I try to, you know, they've had lots of hard things, but I try to smooth everything over and, you know, learning from you that, you know, sometimes constructively fighting. You say arguing. Disagreeing. Disagreeing. It's actually, you know, it's actually helping build their emotional intelligence, going from junior varsity when things are good to, you know, super varsity. I love that. It makes us... embrace who we are. So friction. Friction. Keep the friction. Okay. Well, what if people start friction maxing? That's my only fear. Always the rest these days. Everything can be maxed. Okay. P. Protect the early years. So this is, of course, where I got extra excited reading your book, because I'm like, it's the trajectory. It's not what's happening today. It is the trajectory that what is happening today puts the kid on. So I am going to ask you to tell the story of Ronan and Michelle, who you tell in the book. Because I think it's such a beautiful example of what happens with different levels of input early. Yeah. Yeah. Can I contextualize it with brain development? So, you know. I'm going to tell the story of two of my earliest cochlear implant patients that really changed my understanding of the importance of the early years, the importance of parents and caregivers. Because we can all read numbers, but stories are really how we learn. But I want to contextualize it through the lens of early brain development. The reason protect the early years is so important is that I think of brain development, and you can push back on this metaphor, is the early years are like, if you think about building a brain as building a computer, I think of those early years as building the hard drive, the memory, the RAM, like, it's built, it's whether or not you're getting an iPhone 4 versus an iPhone 16. And K-12, super important, and brain development never ends.

But it feels more like software updates because in those early years, you have a huge amount of brain development, the most rapid. Adolescence also is second to it. But adolescence is actually pruning often too, right? It's actually like widening and then sharpening. So like what's happening early lays the groundwork. Yeah. And so you've got a million new neural connections, 85% of the physical brain. That's upon which everything else builds. And so that's the larger context. But how I got into this field? Literally, I was young at one time, pediatric cochlear implant surgeon, started this implant program at the University of Chicago and started implanting wonderful children. And two of the first implant patients was Ronan and Michelle. Parents loved them both equally. Parents wanted the best for them. Implanted same surgery, same technology. But pretty soon after the surgery, I started noticing profound differences in their outcomes. Ronan, who was born into a very well-resourced home with loving parents. started developing language, really those language and socio-emotional skills were on par with their hearing peers, his hearing peers. He ultimately went to college, went into sort of a medical adjacent field. Michelle, same mother, loved her deeply. Pretty soon after the surgery, I started noticing significant differences. She didn't respond as much to sound. Language was very, you know, delayed. The implant worked, right? She responded to sound because... And her whole sort of educational trajectory was very different than her, than Ronan. And many of you all will see that, you know, what I realize is that it was less about the technology than the early language environments that they were born into. Both parents loved their children equally, wanted the same for them. Michelle's mother, you know, struggled with, you know, food insecurity, you know, all of the issues, homelessness, all of the issues that we fight against so hard together. But really understanding that it was less about the technology and really about the home language environment and the supports. And for me, that was a huge aha because as a surgeon, as a physician, you go into this field because you want all children to thrive. And seeing just how important the post-surgery, you know, as surgeons you're like, it's all about the surgery. But the post-surgical experience is so important. And that's really why I started the TMW Center, why I, you know, partner with so many of you all here, is because to give every child the real chance they deserve, we need to be able to support parents holistically. That was a very long way to tell you that story.

You know, technology can open doors, right? This is, this book, and I am far from anti-AI, I do AI research, I build AI, I implant technology, but it's about understanding how does that AI allow greater presence and support for families and what erodes them, and we can never have it. I was going to get into the E replacing. That's okay, well, we're about to go there. But I just, I think that. Those stories really stayed with me because Ronan got all of this input from adults and that set him down one path. And, you know, Michelle is a function of the... circumstances in which her family found themselves got so much less input from adults and ended up on a different path, even though they started level in terms of being able to hear. And that change was made through your work, but then that was the beginning of a journey for each of them. And so when we take that back to AI, just thinking about a kid who's handed an iPad that is endlessly entertaining because of the AI built into it, versus a kid who's still got an adult talking and talking and talking to them. It's not just that day that we're looking at neural architecture that will stay with that child. Which is hard to say and hard to hear, but we also have to say the true things. Absolutely. And look, and because we're at the beginning of the journey, it's not like we have to play catch up like we did, you know, with a previous tech revolution. We're at the beginning. We can make intentional choices. And my biggest fear, I'll say it out loud, is exactly what you said. You know, you can imagine this technology, this artificial substitute, if you will. being put forth as a better than nothing, right? Instead of thinking about how this AI could have lifted the invisible burdens that were pulling down Michelle and then Michelle's mother and given her the holistic support, the offer would be here. Here's an artificial substitute because she's not able to be around. And my feeling is you do everything to ensure that parent can be around because I have, you know, yes, Sure, outliers, but I've never met a parent who doesn't want the best for their kids. And then if it doesn't work, then fine. We can talk about other strategies. But I tell you, let's use AI to allow greater presence. But anyways. Oh, okay. So over to E. Yeah. So E is enhanced, don't replace. So it's fun to think about. How could AI? support us as parents so we can take better care of our kids. So talk us through some of that. Absolutely. So, you know, sometimes you read reviews of your book, which you probably don't want to, but there was this great review that said, you know, I was confused. I started this book. Was this anti-AI? Was it pro-AI? And then I realized it was about giving frameworks. And the truth is AI is a tool. It should remain a tool. And how we use it is so important.

And the biggest takeaway is let's use AI to allow greater presence. Let it lift up the invisible burdens as parents. You know, take the logistics and the meal planning as teachers, you know, lift up the load so that we can be more present. Use it for, you know, understanding your child more, for understanding developmental, you know, differences and get early interventions. Those are great things. But let's... put a strong, you know, line in the sand when it starts to replace the roles that we play in each other's lives, especially that of parent, you know, caregiver and child. I mean, it should be in everything. So, and I think there's so much opportunity. So if anybody is running a large AI company here, Open AI, Anthropa, anybody here? That's the challenge. You know, it's easy to build a replacement, whatever, anybody can do it. But building intentionally technology that can support us as humans and lead to human flourishing, that's my biggest challenge to you all. Okay. So I'm going to ask my last question, and then we'll open it up. I think we may or may not have AI companies in here. So what can we all do if we're not in that role? Like what's your ask of this audience? We've put something pretty scary on the table, right? There's a real risk that this could get in the way of development, and I think we're most worrisome for the kids who are already marginalized. Yeah. What's the ask? I think there are two or three asks. One, and this goes to, you know, parents. I want to remind each and every one of you all, if you're parents, if your caregivers, the best thing, one of the best things that came out of this, writing this book is realizing the power of our imperfections, that we're not just good enough, we're way good enough. So let this be an opportunity to, you know, snap out of the, you know, break the spell of intensive parenting, where we're trying to optimize our children for things that AI can do now at a different scale and reconnect with our humanity. And remember, those skills that we used to call soft, the ability to connect, the resilience, the curiosity, the creativity, the critical thinking, those are the skills that are going to allow your children to thrive anyways. So allow yourself to be present and be kind to yourself. And if you're going to use it, use it to enhance. those relationships. And, you know, feel good, so. Okay. Well, thank you. I'm gonna just give us a moment here.

All right, now I have my transition spiel. We're about to begin the audience Q&A. For those of us joining via live stream, our live stream audience, I'm Dr. Lisa DeMore, author, psychologist, and senior advisor to the Schubert Center for Child Studies at Case Western University and the moderator for today's conversation. Today we're joined by Dr. Dana Susskind, author of Human Raised, Nurturing Connection, Curiosity, and Lifelong Learning in the Age of AI. We are discussing parenting in the age of artificial intelligence and how to protect what matters most in childhood, human connection. We welcome questions from everyone, city club members, guests, and those joining via our live stream at city club.org. If you'd like to text a question, please text it to 330-441-5794. That's 330-541-5794, and the city club staff will work it into the program. May we have our first question? This is a text question. It reads, you mentioned you didn't learn it in medical school. What needs to change or what do we do so that the importance of human connection is taught and available for all professions, like make human race part of all curriculum? I love that question. I love that question. I had the wildest thought, and you can tell me if you totally disagree. I realized that as I was writing this book about the most advanced technology that humans have ever created, that really it was as much about the technology as it was about us. And that there's such a deep hunger. I think it's bubbling up even more to connect. And maybe the age of AI will be a greater reconnection with who we are because we don't want to be replaced in each other's lives. We want to... remain there. So, yes, I'm hopeful that the importance of human connection will bubble up everywhere, and it should be part of medical school. It should be even part of schools. I realize that, you know, we talk a lot about what you learn in school, but now the social fabric, the people, kids talking to each other, that's part of the curriculum. So I think there's... Maybe we'll realize that even more and more, fingers crossed. Hi, thank you so much for your presentation today. It's so interesting. I have a particular interest in your angle as a cochlear implant surgeon. My son is deaf and was implanted when he was four. And I apologize if this is really niche for the rest of you, but I've been really wondering this. I was like, who can I possibly ever ask this question to? And here we are. So AI. The technology that my son has is not really, as far as I'm aware, involved with AI at all, the implant itself. So I'm curious, is there any kind of move toward having cochlear implants adopt some kind of AI technology? What would that look like? And also what would that look like for early development?

Yeah, no, that's a great question. So probably the hardware itself, what we implant is unlikely to. But, you know, the external processor and all the software related to that is they're working more to embed, you know, AI. It's much more on the machine learning than generative AI. So I think that it's going to impact. all of our worlds, including, you know, the world of cochlear implantation. Where I do think more AI will be embedded is in early, so we're working on at the center how to automate those early language. measurements, right? When you go to the speech pathologist, and there are so few of them, you know, they're time intensive. How can you use AI and machine learning to, you know, automate it more in the natural language environment and, you know, better target the type of intervention in therapy? So I'm not sure if I answered the question, but yeah. So you know the power of talk and interaction more than anyone. Yeah.

You know, the funny thing is, I obviously as a cochlear implant surgeon, I sort of brought the knowledge of the early language, the power of the early language environment, everything that I had learned from our field into the broader mainstream. So, yeah. All right, this is another text question. It reads, Salamanca, New York schools have announced that there will be rolling out an AI teaching assistant this fall. Can you comment on this? Yeah. You mean the humanoid robot? Is that, well, I guess, yeah, no. And that, you know, I don't know deeply about this. I've only seen what you're talking about in the news, but they're rolling out a humanoid robot as a teaching assistant. I mean, we need, I need to understand more, but I was struck by the fact that it's in an under-resourced community, you know. So if you're using your monies for untested, unvalidated. piece of AI equipment, I could suggest some other ways that you could use the funding to support children. So yeah, that's, you know, that's why I wrote human race because you could, you know, right now we're still at the very beginnings of this AI revolution. It's going to come fast and furious, and this is exactly the stuff that we need to start talking about very loudly because... We learned that we don't always want to buy what they're selling. Thank you. You talked about the waiting room getting quiet, and I wanted to pivot a little bit to the friction, you said, and in play for the children. With AI, you can have a very frictionless play, like the games. no risk versus the old risky play where you get a rused shin. Could you comment on your thoughts on that and how semi-risky play for young children helps them to grow? Yeah. So, you know, the, and I know you probably can, we should both answer this question, but, you know, one of the most interesting parts of learning about the power of friction is actually through friendship formation, and John Gottzman did a study that... you know, what is, what builds strong friendships isn't alignment just getting along. It's the rupture, the repair, you know, that cycle is actually how you, you know, learn to be friends and strong friends. I also talk about, you know, the role of imaginary play and that so much of imaginary play comes here. So when people are selling these AI plush toys here, stimulate your curiosity and gives you fantastical thoughts and ideas, you're actually cognitively offloading, sort of like using AI to write an essay, but this way is your creativity is being cognitively offloaded.

to a technology, which sounds at surface level, oh, that makes sense. But when I talk about my husband. I love this. I was going to bring it up if you did me. Oh, you can tell the story, yeah. Okay, I'll tell the story about your husband. So, he's an economist. John, yeah. Yeah, he's an economist at University of Chicago. But as a kid, it was the Packers? Yeah, the Packers. I'm obsessed with the Packers. Sorry. No, we don't have. Don't bring up Pittsburgh. Yeah. He would, on his own, in the backyard, play both sides of the game, pretending to be the hero of the Packers. John Rockman. Yeah. Okay, and then, and then he would like, go do the play from the other side, and then come back and do it from his side. And this would go on for, this is like a huge enterprise. Yeah. And I was so moved by that passage in your book because the inventiveness, the creativity, the something out of nothing, right? Like that's what creativity is. It's something out of nothing. And then back to the neural architecture, right? Like I think about this all the time when people have used their minds to build things that weren't there. Well, now they have all the neurons that did that and they can be repurposed to all sorts of other things. And so that story, right, of the board kid in the backyard for hours, inventing plays from both sides. That's how brains grow. And it was such a fun story, because I was just, you know, in the process of writing, you talked to your partner, and he just shared it. I was like, oh, my gosh, that's going in the book. But I actually have... I showed you the picture of John when he was a little guy in a Packers outfit, you know, with the black and everything. But that's the thing is that so often we sort of missed there were throwaways, the friction, the imaginary play, the boredom, right? Things that we have tried to fill with technology. And now we're realizing, oh my gosh, we're losing something so precious. But it's not too late. No, not at all. Hello. What is your number one recommendation to policymakers as it relates to AI in the elementary school? France recently announced that they're going to be banding social media for anyone under the age of 15. So, you know, it's, I would start off with we need guard rails. We need... developmentally aligned guardrails. I look at things very much through the lens of human development and science. You know, I think we need to have age, I mean, it's such a large discussion. We need age brackets. You know, you don't, the same, I don't know, what is it, car seat, you don't have the same car seat for a newborn that you have for a three-year-old, right? We need to be thoughtful about it. We don't, not so much, I'm all about innovation. I mean, I built, I love building, but I think we don't need to be rushing, because we actually know how to build humans in really strong ways. We want to be thoughtful about how we let this stuff in. I mean, we've learned from ed tech that.

You know, it sounds really good, but doesn't always pan out for lots of reasons. You know, I study the science of scaling. I do large-scale randomized control trials. I'm deep in this. And I can tell you that I can do a small experiment, you know, and we're doing recurrent, and show you great impacts. But because of the scale-up effect, the fact that implementation changes as you scale, there are lots of things that happen. So we need to be really thoughtful before we start letting new stuff into the world. I'm not against new stuff. Let's just be thoughtful. I'm a doctor. We didn't start implanting children with cochlear implants when the guy first had the great idea and did a prototype. I mean... We need to be thoughtful because this is powerful, powerful, powerful technology.

I have probably a two-part question, but how will AI widen the gap between wealthy and under-resource? Because there might be a lot of opportunities, especially families with a lot of resources, to outsource, but those aren't always available to under-resourced families. And then that unrealistic expectation we already have of kids of how they should enter school. kindergarten, they need to come in reading, even though it's not developmentally appropriate. So again, the most resource families are going to be throwing every extra opportunity and the under-resourced families don't. So they show up to school and then schools continue to build in this AI to catch up. So I'm just curious what your thoughts are on how, especially because a lot of us in this room, work with a huge range of kids and how do we help lessen that gap that's probably going to happen. It doesn't have to, right? We cannot. We're at the very beginning. I mean, and there's a reason. I called it human raised for a reason. You know, 100 plus years ago, nobody ever looked at, you know, the food on the table and said, hmm, I wonder if this was made in a lab or was this grown on a farm, right? Everything was grown on a farm. In the same way, for millennia. Children were raised by adults in their world that loved them, that cared for them, that wanted to. this cannot become a luxury label. This has got to be a right that every child has to be raised by humans. So I put it out there because I don't want it to become that. With that being said, I think we need to be very intentional on how that happens because the idea that human connection can become a luxury, you know, good like organic, that's... horrible and terrifying and we need to do everything that we can not to allow that to happen from pushing you know not allowing humanoid robots as the first teaching assistant as opposed to thinking about well how can we allow more presence for the teacher and support him or her in that role with that same monies so you know I think we need to collectively all understand this and speak loudly, because none of us is going to be able to push back against the tide, but all of us together can. I just want to thank you again for coming back to Northeast Ohio. And in your closing remarks, you shared about how reconnecting with our humanity is really what is going to help us through this AI boom. Philanthropy and public systems often invest in what we can easily measure, such as reading scores, absences, graduation rates, workforce outcomes. If reconnecting with our humanity is foundational to resilience, right, to curiosity in building critical thinking.

What do you feel we should be investing in that we're currently not because it's harder to measure? Great question. Yeah, I love that. So, you know, I call them within the book the Human Edge Skills. You know, we've been for the last couple decades trying to optimize our children for sort of computer-like skills, you know, and we still need those skills, don't get me wrong, but, you know. reading, math, knowledge, you know, all of these really hard skills that you need, but they're not going to be the big differentiators. What people are saying, you know, are the human edge skills, as I mentioned before, deep connection, curiosity, creativity, critical thinking, resilience, moral and ethical judgment, those sorts of things are going to be the differentiators. And so those can't be optimized. They're built by a human presence, by boredom, by all these other things that we've talked about that happened repeatedly over time. And so I can talk about all the things that you need to invest in, which is humans and allowing them more presence. But then you ask, how do you measure it? Because it's true. People... You can't, there's a saying you can't move what you can't measure, which is sort of hard, right? You can't do it at scale. And it's something that I think a lot about because you can also distort human behavior by all of a sudden saying, we need to measure the deep human connection and then, you know, people optimize for that. It's a larger discussion. I mean, we are in full, you know. We're doing research in that area, again, because I think that we need to be able to show, in theory, you don't need any technology for human connection. Let me just put it out there. But if you're going to be thinking about it, which we are, understanding how to build technology that can give insights in a non sort of high-stakes way, in measuring it, like those are things that are going to be, if you're going to try, you need to do it, but with science and... not the incentive of money, but the incentive of human flourishing. I don't know if I answered the question, but. Good afternoon. We have a text question. As early childhood educators, how can we best support parents navigating this age of innovation? Look, let's be clear, we're all navigating it, right? And I think that the... And tell me what you think about this. I've thought about AI literacy in two ways. There's AI literacy in understanding what it is and how to use it in all its forms. And there's lots of, you know, I think of AI technology is sort of a spectrum, sort of like processed food, everything from things that save you time to things that want to be your best friend. So AI literacy, understanding. how to use it and what it is. But then there's also developmental AI literacy. Like understanding it, understanding AI, especially generative AI, through the lens of who we are, how we respond. So I've been doing too much talking and we have this incredible resource called Dr. DeMore. So I want, is this? So.

When I think developmentally about technologies and kids, right, I think there's two huge hazards that I watch out for. And one of them, you address both of them in your book. The first is displacement. There's only 24 hours in a day. And these technologies are designed to be as sticky as absolutely possible. And insert here a rant about the sheer volume of data. that these companies are working with to make it so that you're like, one more real, one more, like, it is staggering from a mathematical perspective. So of all ages, there's this terrible displacement risk, because in the 24-hour day, it is so easy to spend so much more time on, you know, mindless and yes entertaining and even if it's benign technology that comes at the cost of being with people getting a good night's sleep getting bored making up football games where you're the only player right like so it's I think that that's such a key guardrail it's just time it's a time issue and these are time bandits like we have never seen before then there's the what's on the tech Right? And that's where I think we want to be really mindful because in my world where I'm thinking about teenagers, I'm like, well, some of them are looking at cat videos and some of them are looking at hate content, right? And so setting aside the time issue, I want no time on hate content. I want no time on this whole category of garbage content that is out there. So as we think about... Any technology that's coming our way, I usually think in that way, which is how much time and what's getting delivered in that time? Because there could be benefits, and there can be tremendous harms. But those for me are the navigating points. Yeah, I love that. Do you ever, you brought up the behavioral, no, now I'm going to ask you, you brought up the behavioral science and all the science that's being done. Have you ever thought, gosh, I mean, they've done more science, behavioral science, than I think all of... universities combined. Oh, the tech companies? It's amazing. They know more about humans than any social scientist has ever known. And can you imagine if they had done it for good? I know. I know. I know. Don't even, oh, I'm going to be so upset. But actually, on the science piece, actually, a quick thought, and it's back to the early elementary question. And, you know, at some of it, we actually have a bunch of science that could be applied here. And it's actually the science of children's TV, right? Which is so much less alluring than tech can be. But one of the things that came out in the science is that the reason that Sesame Street worked is that parents would watch it.

And so, because it's so funny, right? And they're putting in all these jokes for us, right? And so then the carryover in terms of improved numeracy and literacy was that at dinner, the parent was like, what would the count say? Because the parent watched the show. And the reason that Barney failed is that it was unwatchable. Right? For adults. For adults. And so even though it was educational, Even though it was educational, it's just the kid and the dinosaur. And you actually didn't see the educational outcomes. Because it wasn't carried over into the interaction with the adult. So my worry, I know this isn't my stage, but now I've taken it. No, no, no. But my worry about the robot doing the teaching with the kid. is that that robot is not later at dinner being, remember how you didn't know how to do this at lunch? The teacher who's doing that, two lessons later can be like, and kid, you, you need to be paying attention to this because I remember our conversation from three weeks ago. So I think that even with educational technologies available, it's inert, all but inert. until a relationship is wrapped around it. Yeah. Yeah. And just so you know, in terms of Barney... I'm sorry to bring up Barney. When children go into the operating room during that period of time, it was always Barney, and they were like, just let me go to sleep, please. Even the kid. Even the kid. That was a surgeon. The surgeon's like, take me out. I don't want to be here for this. This is a text question. My three-year-old has an Alexa in her bedroom, mainly to control the lights, and she often asks it, what's the weather? And other random questions like, did you go to school? Is this harmful?

You know, a doctor once told my husband, well, this is a bad joke. Only two things should happen in the bedroom, but there should not be any technology. That was not correct. Sorry. You know, and you can share your... And it's sleep and reading. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. That was it. Thank you. You're welcome. Thanks for the same. You're welcome. Yeah. You know, look, you know, at some level, it's probably benign. It just, you know, things become a slippery slope and I like to, I really was a good enough. very good enough parent and that nothing was that big of a deal but you know I think it sets up the idea that technology can be in the bedroom which I think one of the easy things that you guard rails that you can put is look if we're gonna have technology we'll all be together as opposed to you know being isolated so I don't know do you have

I'm pretty flexible for the large part about most things, because I've seen it all. Yeah. It is interesting, the deeper I get into my own work 30 years in, there's some hard lines I have really come to. I have a really hard time with kids having tech in their bedrooms. Okay, good. I totally 100% get it. That for some kids, that is the only quiet place where they can do their homework. I get that. We have no data showing it helps kids to have tech in their bedrooms, and we have truckloads of data showing that it undermines sleep. It lets kids do things they would not do in the kitchen. So I have become, I'm surprised by the rigidity that has come over me about this. And I also love having that conversation with families before they've let that cat out of the bag. It's a hard cat to get back in the bag. Yeah. But it's an easy one to actually... From the beginning. If you set it as the outset, it's much easier. Yeah. So I don't like saying unpopular things, but I'm there on that. So two of us agree. You know, look, it... Nothing's been harmed, but if you start moving it out of the bedroom now, it'll be much easier when they, they're Lisa's age children to say, no tech in the bedroom. That wraps up the show for today. We hope you enjoyed the City Club of Cleveland conversation about parenting and technology. If you missed any part of today's show, you can hear a rebroadcast tonight at 9 on 897 WKSU. You can also find every episode of The Sound of IdeasU wherever you get your podcasts and on the IdeaStream public media YouTube page. To get the last word on today's topics, you can email us at SOI at ideastream.org and find us on Instagram or at the Sound of Ideas. Tomorrow on The Sound of Ideas, we'll learn more about a lawsuit involving the planned consolidation at Lakewood City schools. Plus, I talk with endurance athlete Katie Spots before she attempts to cross the Pacific Ocean, rowing it solo. She's heading off to Peru very soon. I'm Stephanie Haney. Thank you for keeping the conversation going. We'll see you back here tomorrow on The Sound of Ideas.