Are we thinking about the Israel-Hamas conflict all wrong?

Support for WBUR comes from MathWorks, creator of MATLAB and Simulink Software, to design and develop engineered systems, accelerating the pace of discovery in engineering and science. Learn more at mathworks.com. Oncology is a key focus for Pfizer. With 40% of R&D devoted to the oncology space, Pfizer is committed to advancing cancer care for your patients. Learn more at cancer.fizer.com. Hey, it's Willis, a producer here at On Point. One of my favorite parts about being a producer here is hearing from you, our listeners, about the show. What you like, what you thought of our guests, what you thought of what they had to say, and what topics you hope will cover. And what I love about the new On Point Club is that we're going to have more opportunities to share what's behind the scenes and how we put the show together for you. If you're not a member of the On Point Club yet, click on the link in the episode description to sign up. For seven bucks a month, you'll get first access to the jackpot each week, other exclusive content, and you'll be the first to know about special live events. Now, stick around for today's show. WBUR Podcasts, Boston. This is On Point. I'm Magnitakrabardi. Ahmed Fuad al-Katib is a resident senior fellow at the Atlantic Council, a Washington, D.C. think tank. He is Palestinian and grew up in Gaza City. Though he lives in Washington now, as a boy, Ahmed was almost killed by an Israeli airstrike when he was in Gaza City. In the current war, that's been going on since Hamas's October 7th attack against Israel. more than 30 of his relatives still in Gaza have been killed by the Israeli military. Now, these experiences have shaped his view of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, though perhaps not in the way you'd expect. Ahmed has a new book and memoir. It's called Hamas and its two million hostages, where he says that not only has two decades of Hamas's rule in Gaza stifled hope and possibility for his people because of what he calls Hamas's, quote, cold calculation that victory against Israel depends on sacrificing the lives and livelihoods of more than two million gossans. He also says that any way forward for the Palestinian people requires recognizing Israel. And he joins us now. Ahmed Fuad al-Khattib, welcome to On Point.

Great to be with you. Thank you. So I'd actually just like to start with your boyhood, if we could, to get to know more about your experiences. What was life like when you were growing up in Gaza City? One of the things that I like to always share about Gaza is that it's a very complicated, complex place with immense beauty and immense meaning for its people, the beaches, the food, the family connections, even with all the hardships that we experience, even with all the challenges. So many informative memories were formed in Gaza. I got to experience the tail end of the Jon Ossoff process with the hope and optimism that that entailed of flying into the newly established Gaza International Airport on board the newly created Palestinian Airlines. I got to see my family obtain our first cell phone, our first landline that were provided through a Palestinian telecommunications company. I got to experience the Renaissance, if you will, that Gaza was experiencing with the industrial zone. northern Gaza, the hope, the feeling that we really were marching towards statehood with all the state institutions that were being created. And then I also got to experience the fear and the terror and the trauma associated with the second intifada and the violence, both as far as the Israeli bombardment and the escalation of confrontations with the Israeli side. but also how that translated internally in terms of the Palestinian society, in terms of the rise of Hamas, in terms of what that meant for the collapse of the peace process. And so Gaza is a beautiful place that meant so much to me, so much to my family, even though we experienced so much suffering and hardships there. Okay, so there's a lot that you said I want to come back to, but I did mention at the beginning here that when you were 11, you experienced an Israeli... Airstrike? Can you tell us about that? Yes, so I was walking home. I went to UNRWA schools. Unra is, of course, the not so controversial, UN Refugee Agency. This was in November of 2001 when I was 11 years old. And we were walking home from school to my household. We walked approximately three kilometers every day to and from school each way. And I started walking faster than a group of three friends of mine. And about two minutes after walking faster. and wishing to just get home sooner, there was an Israeli air strike, a very massive one using a fighter jet that struck a Palestinian security forces building. I panicked. I turned around and I knew that they had been right by the site when it was hit. And instead of running away from the blast area, I actually ran towards it. And I...

was trying to look for them. Of course, there were a lot of other people rushing to the site. And unfortunately, while I was in there trying to locate them, there was a follow-on air strike. And I was right next to the building when it was hit. And the concussive wave of the blast caused me permanent hearing damage in my left ear. That's still with me to this day. And I lost two of my friends. And that air strike, Rajab and Muhammad. That was the kind of planted the seed for me that I really had to get out of Gaza. I felt so threatened by the trajectory of events. And I also began learning English. And I became one of the top speakers, actually, of English in the Gaza Strip. And I knew that English was going to help me escape Gaza and seek a better life, even temporarily outside of the coastal enclave. Hmm. You managed to leave, what, four years later in 2005? Precisely. I was 15 years old and came to the U.S. as an exchange student. It was a post-9-11 initiative to build cultural bridges and bring young Muslim and Middle Eastern students to the United States for high school exchange, live with a host family, and then supposedly return to your native homeland and build cultural bridges. I left Gaza one month before what was known as the disengagement. And this was the pulling out by then-Israel Sharon of all the Jewish-only settlements out of the Gaza Strip. Many believe in pursuit of peace. Others argue it might have been part of a double-sided plan to forestall the establishment of a Palestinian state. Regardless, it was a time of... immense optimism, immense hope, immense possibilities that Gaza could become a role model, if you will, for what happens when the Palestinian people obtain their freedom, their ability to self-govern. And I saw my uncle Riyadh. who was a day laborer in Israel. Day laborers were very big in the 80s and especially in the 1990s. So much so that the joke in the 1990s was that Gazans occupied Israel because so many Gazans were working in Israel, not just as construction workers. They worked in property management. They worked in agriculture. They worked in textile factories. They worked in restaurant services. And these weren't just like day jobs, make money and get out. Over time, they became a window through which Palestinians and Israelis could gain an understanding, if you will, of each other. And they developed lasting bonds and lasting relationships. When the Second Intifada of 2000 began, Most of those day laborers lost the ability to work. And a large number of them developed severe psychological, not to mention financial issues because they just ended up being stuck at home. And that was my uncle, Riyadh. So he was one of the last people. He was my dad's youngest brothers. He's the last person I saw in Gaza. And he said, inshallah, when you come back a year later, the withdrawal would have happened and things will be much better. And I'll go back to working in Israel.

Sadly, not only will I not go back to Gaza a year later, not only will the withdrawal not proceed as anticipated, but in 2023, my uncle Riyadh was killed in an Israeli airstrike that destroyed our family neighborhood and rendered him to mushy tissues and human remains that were under the rubble for approximately two weeks. Huh. There's something that your father told you when you left in 2005? I mean, my dad, he had a great influence on me as far as maintaining political independence and a lot of people have curiosity about what was potentially different about my upbringing that didn't allow me to either be a part of the Hamas narrative or fall for some of the... Genguistic nationalism of the PA or a Feta or the PLO. And I've often attributed that to my father and my upbringing in Gaza. Of course, over the past two decades, my father passed away six years ago in Gaza. He was a doctor for UNRWA for many, many years. And he ran their Jabalia Clinic, which is one of the largest refugee camps in Gaza, just north of Gaza City in the north. Most of Jabalia has now been destroyed. But he very much so had a significant impact in terms of how he grounded my understanding of Gaza. But also, I should say, he was a very pious religious man. And he was part of our... mosque community, the very mosque that I wrote about extensively in this book, right before he passed away, he told my mother two things. Number one, that Hamas had tried multiple times to recruit him and that he did not want to do that. And he tried very politely. You have to be polite with these people to say no. He was like, I'll consult for you if you insist, but no, I really don't want to be a part of your apparatus. And number two is he confided in my mom, that he with his own eyes, because he, and for really pious Muslims, you have to pray the late evening and the early morning prayers in the mosque to really prove your piety. And they... took note of that but he with his own eyes confided in my mom that he saw weapons stored at our mosque in fact uh this is only something that my mom shared with me two years ago um long after he passed away and only after october seventh he shared with her his his pleasant surprise that thus far the mosque had not been targeted by the Israeli military and he was very concerned that this was kind of a violation of of the sanctity of the place because it's not supposed to be I mean he's he's a very committed Muslim man he was but he didn't really think that it was appropriate to mix

Hamas's activities that they call resistance, which unfortunately for Hamas meant free license to abuse and use all forms of infrastructure. He felt that that was really inappropriate, but he didn't really have anyone else to share that with except for my mother. Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here for MintMobil. Now, I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited premium wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills. But it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch. Up front payment of $45 for three months, $90 for six months, or $180 for 12-month plan required, $15 per month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. Initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes may slow when network is busy. See terms. Starting a business can seem like a daunting task, unless you have a partner like Shopify. They have the tools you need to start and grow your business. From designing a website to marketing to selling and beyond, Shopify can help with everything you need. There's a reason millions of companies like Mattel, Heinz, and all birds continue to trust and use them. With Shopify on your side, turn your big business idea into... Sign up for your $1 per month trial at Shopify.com slash special offer. There is something powerful about the sound of the human voice. Beautifully produced audio has the unique power to connect and inspire. Tell your organization's story with a custom podcast from City Space Productions, the Creative Studio from WBUR's business partnerships team. Become a thought leader. Recruit new talent, reach new audiences, whatever your goal, we can help. Discover how the magic is made at WBUR.org slash creative studio.

So given your, the story of your life as you've just told us, you know, growing up in Gaza City. being, you know, trapped in Israeli airstrike when you're 11, leaving when you were, what, 15, 16, and being unable to come back. Subsequently, not only your father, but your uncle, 30 members of your family, having been killed in the Israel War in Gaza since October 7th. These are the stereotypical pieces that when people put them together, they think, well, Ahmed would be very... supportive of quote unquote resistance of Hamas's attempts to resist Israeli occupation. And yet how would you describe, simply put, you know, your view of what Hamas is? When I came back to the United States, thanks to the support of human rights and peace activists and really saved my life and enabled me to be here, I've started applying for political asylum. There was a risk because I spoke English. Hamas had approached me when I was a boy in Gaza and also the program I participated in was a novelty and it was under a lot of suspicion by Hamas and others. The very day... that Hamas took over the Gaza Strip violently was June 14th, 2007, which is the very day that I had my asylum interview in the United States. I was 17 at the time. And I was actually the first Palestinian from Gaza to receive asylum in the United States, political asylum, that is, because of Hamas's control. I mean, that's a very grim milestone. But to me, that reduced. basically tells you everything there is to know about how Hamas' rise to power. Hamas' ascent to the control of the Gaza's trip. both in terms of the last 20 years, but also their rise in starting in the late 80s, has really been nothing short of a catastrophe, a modern day catastrophe for the Palestinian people. It had radicalized the society, moved the Overton window, reduced democratic aspirations. It had undermined a fragile yet viable Jon Ossoff peace process. It had done everything it could. to turn Gaza not into the crown jewel of the Palestinian peoples and the pride and joy of self-governance of Palestinian arts, culture, overlooking the Mediterranean and airport and seaport, and a compelling example of what an occupation-free West Bank would look like.

But Hamas very much so was a gift to the far right in Israel. It was a gift to anti-Palestinian forces in Israeli society. And so that is not hard to register and construct, especially when you see it up close. But of course, as you know, one of the most impassioned counter arguments to what you just said, which we hear all the time. You know, for example, just. Last year, the Palestinian envoy to India, Abdullah Abu Shawesh, was quoted as saying that, quote, we will not accept anyone to designate Hamas or label Hamas as a terrorist organization because we, the Palestinian Fatah movement, exercised the right. And this is our right, according to international law, to resist the basically the military occupation of Israel. Long story short, the counter argument is that were it not for... decades of the brutality of Israeli occupation in Gaza, that Hamas would have had no emotional or political foothold to begin this rise. So it's not Hamas, that's the problem. It's Israel. And if I had a penny for every time I hear that, and the good news is that... So many Palestinians in Gaza and elsewhere, but especially in Gaza, think and will tell you exactly what I'm about to say. But just real quickly, I have to emphasize something of the utmost importance. And this is why I do what I do. This is why I speak up, despite immense personal cost and risk. This is why I wrote this short book. This is why I'm even relevant. is that there's a total disconnect in the discourse, the pro-Palestine discourse, the Palestinian national identity and how it's manifested abroad, how it's communicated to the outside world, between the diaspora, between whether it means in the West Bank, whether it means in the Arab and Muslim world, whether it means the Palestinian Americans or Palestinians in Europe or elsewhere, versus. the people of Gaza, the Palestinian people in Gaza, those who have to deal with the consequences of Hamas. So it is very easy to be pro-Hamas when you don't have to deal with the consequences. It's very easy to pontificate these lofty ideas about resistance and to also recycle these tired old points about why Hamas is relevant, etc. It's very simple. Hamas is an inorganic component of the Palestinian society. It rose on the backs of a wave of Islamism in the Arab and Muslim world, especially in Egypt and in Saudi Arabia, beginning in the late 70s and early 80s. This metastasized into an organization that infiltrated the society, a society in need, a society, yes, under direct military occupation, but a society that was historically very secular. that was historically not leaning towards Islamism and from the river to the sea to establish an Islamic state for all. Hamas used social welfare. They used social services. Then they used the mosques. Then they used the educational services, the kindergartens, the private schools to entrench themselves and build a network that by the time they launched officially in 87, then they leveraged this infrastructure.

for the so-called armed resistance narrative. And this is unfortunately where it took the Palestinian president almost a year and a half to condemn Hamas, even though I know I've spoken to President Abbas in the past. The Palestinian authority, they despise Hamas. They're moral enemies of Hamas. But what Hamas has done... is they've shifted the Overton window of what is acceptable discourse in the Palestinian society. And that's why you hear this ambassador and many others, unwilling to condemn Hamas, unwilling to condemn terrorism, unwilling to condemn the taken of women and children as hostages, and unwilling to condemn the basic fact, which is that... October 7th isn't about decades of Israeli occupation or Israeli militarism. October 7th is a narrow decision by two, forgive the expression, psychopaths, Sinwar and Dave, two leaders within Hamas, who actually didn't even consult the rest of the organization. So it's very... difficult to hear these justifications. Well, we're going to talk a little bit later, Ahmed, about how these kinds of things that you say make many, many people believe that you're just a flat-out Israel apologist. Or a Zionist. Or scientists. I'll get to that in a moment. But there are things that you write about in the book that I want to probe more. Because again, the title is Hamas and its two million hostages. But also I want to broaden it into how it's not just Hamas and its two million hostages, but Hamas. and Israel, and their two million hostages. So first and foremost, this is a little bit of tape of Ismail Hania, who was assassinated by Israel in July of 2024, former leader of Hamas. He had been interviewed several years ago about a story regarding a possible $15 billion offer of aid that Hamas had received to develop the Gaza Strip, particularly in airport. And I believe you said you were actually either directly or indirectly involved with this. And he called the offer for it came from quote unquote superpowers. So we'll hear a little bit of what Hania said about this $15 billion offer to develop Gaza. And I will provide a translation.

So Ro Khanna says the idea was to build an airport and a seaport and to launch economic projects in the Gaza Strip. We told them that's excellent. We actually want that. We want a seaport in an airport. We want the blockade on the Gaza Strip lifted. That is a Palestinian demand. But then he goes on and he says, but the question remained, what was the price? What was the trade-off? Naturally, the price was something like disbanding the faction's military wings. the resistance and integrating them into the police force, turning them into police officers. Of course, we categorically rejected that. We could not accept such a trade-off. Tell me about the significance of this, Ahmed. This is Hamas in a nutshell. First of all, I want to be clear about something. I have zero interest in defending Israel. I am not Israel's lawyer. I have no... doubts in my mind about the extent to which Hamas was a useful idiot for the far right in Israel. I know that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu... We'll get to this. Ahmed, we will absolutely get to this because I've got... But I needed to qualify. I want it to qualify because... But this is why the whole blockade narrative to me is kaput. This video, this audio, this should render the whole narrative that Gaza... was inherently the product of an Israeli design that refused to see it develop, that refused to see it become something prosperous, just because Israel is inherently against any form of Palestinian evolution or success or development, that narrative is completely false. It is inaccurate. I have been in these rooms, even as a young man. 10 years ago, I tried to build an internationally run Israeli-approved airfield. And I had an army of engineers. And this wasn't just an idea. This was a full detailed plan. And it began as a humanitarian airport. It began as all, and it could evolve into being a Palestinian-run airfield. Same thing with seaports. Same thing with so many ideas that were floated. All Hamas had to do was to relinquish the idea of armed resistance in Gaza. Because guess what? The Israelis no longer control Gaza directly. They pulled out their settlements. Yes, Israel controls the airspace and the territorial waters. But though, naturally Israel is going to do that until there is negotiation on what does that look like? Is it temporary international management that transitions to Palestinian control? Of course, Israel wasn't going to pull out of Gaza and immediately hand everything over. These things are gradual. They're gradual in Lebanon. They're gradual in multiple conflict zones around the world where the warring parties come to a gradual phased implementation agreement. So this clip by Ismail Haniyah. exposes the idea that Israel locked the Gaza Strip and threw away the key. Israel had every interest for its own purposes in seeing Gaza develop, even though some in Israel had their own designs for the West Bank. So why is Hamas bragging about the fact that they arrested Gaza's development for the sake of resistance that, guess what? Now they're disarming. Now they're giving that up. What has the last 20 years achieved?

Do you know that Gaza has actually received over the last 20 years more aid and development money per capita than any other conflict zone in the entire world? And where has that gone? What has that achieved except for more wars, more blockade, more loss of land, more tunnels, more rockets? And we've come full circle. Now, 20 years later, where Hamas is basically defeated, the armed resistance narrative has failed. to achieve what kind of freedom or liberty have we gained from Hamas's 20-year project. Whereas negotiations in the 1990s that Hamas called treacherous that so many academics and journalists and activists in the Western world and in the U.S. and on college campuses say, oh, it's weak, it's treacherous. You're a sellout for engaging in. That actually achieved, we got Palestinian passport, we got an airport, et cetera. So this tells you everything you need to know about why has Gaza been under a blockade. And this isn't in defense of Israel, but of any country. that has a terrorist organization on its border that says, I'm going to shoot rockets and build tunnels and smuggle weapons. And then October 7th is the kind of like to prove it right. Any country, Israel or Saudi Arabia or Egypt, are going to impose restrictions on this territory until that threat is eliminated. Well, and also, again, Hania has been very public, had been, because he was assassinated again by Israel. But he had been very public about his. full knowledge of, you know, the cost of October 7th on the people of Gaza. I mean, for example, in a televised address in 2024, Ismail Khania actually directly said that the blood of women, children, and the elderly were useful to Hamas. Here's what he said.

Hania said, quote, I have said this before and I will say it again, the blood of children, women, and the elderly. I am not saying this blood is calling for your help. We are the ones who need this blood. So it awakens within us the revolutionary spirit. So it awakens in us resolve. So it awakens within us the spirit of challenge and pushes us to move forward. End quote. You want to talk about poetry? Yeah, we do, Henry Winkler. I'm journalist Faith Saly. I'm poet Maggie Smith, and we are the co-hosts of You Could Make This Beautiful, where we talk to actors. Oh my God, poetry emergency. Comedians. We met on poetry dates.com. and teachers about poetry in all its forms. It's just one of those poems where you're like, if I read this to someone on a day, we're going to get the check. You could make this beautiful wherever you get your podcasts.

At Radio Lab, we love nothing more than nerding out about science. Neuroscience, chemistry. But, but we do also like to get into other kinds of stories. Stories about policing. Or politics. Country music. Hockey. Sex. Of bugs. Regardless of whether we're looking at science or not science, we bring a rigorous curiosity to get you the answers. And hopefully make you see the world anew. Radio Lab, adventures on the edge of what we think we know. Wherever you get your podcast. Tanya. I think you did the best interview that I've done, seriously. Oh, that's a great question. I think I'm going to think about that question for the rest of my life. Oh, good question. This is Tanya Mosley, co-host of Fresh Air, and the questions are only the half of it. Listen to Fresh Air on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm very taken by the title of your book, Hamas and its two million hostages, because you said that you don't think it's in Israel's self-interest at all to keep Hamas or to have Hamas right on its border. Except there seems to be a lot of evidence that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu does actually see it in his interest or his view of Israel's self-interest to even go so far as support. Hamas, and none of this will be news to you, Ahmed, but I do want to explain to listeners what I'm talking about. In 2024, there was a documentary released called The Beebe Files. It's by Alexis Bloom and Alex Gibney. They had received more than a thousand hours of leaked interrogation footage. These are Israeli police interrogations of... Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in association with his corruption charges, the anti-corruption cases that are pending against the Prime Minister in Israel. So he was interrogated by Israeli police about this. And in this footage, there are recordings of Benjamin Netanyahu talking about... His secret ties to a, quote, sworn enemy. He says, we may have not lit the fire, but we control the heights of the flames. So here's a little bit of that interrogation footage.

more territories to the Palestinians. We should never evacuate any settlements from the West Bank. In fact, we should expand the Jewish-only settlements in the West Bank to make sure that we permanently kill the prospect of the two-state solution. And in a way, Hamas was never about the two-state solution. So it had a tactical alliance with Benjamin Netanyahu, because Hamas, I mean, both Benjamin Netanyahu and Hamas are two different sides in a sense of like the river to the sea. narrative of Benjamin Netanyahu wants Israel to reign supreme from the River Jim Jordan to the Mediterranean Sea, same with Hamas. And so it was very much so a tactical alliance. He created a monster that he believed, or I should say he didn't create a monster. He emboldened a monster. Hamas precedes Benjamin Netanyahu, but he emboldened and maneuvered around the monster. And funded apparently. And with billions of dollars in Qatari funds. And by the way, the Qataris would never dare do this on their own. They're housing the biggest U.S. air base in the region. The Qatari's are basically tools of U.S. foreign policy and their own aspirations in the region. So they, too, had a convergence of interest because that's their bread and butter is talking to the groups like the Taliban, like Hamas, like even elements of Al-Qaeda to get hostages out. So that is the... The issue with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on October 7th is that we've known for years that if you're going to pump Hamas full of billions of dollars, they're not and they've already said no to an airport and they've already said no to a seaport. What were they going to do with this money? They were going to train. They were going to build tunnels and attack eventually. So here is the grotesque truth. On the one side, there's Hamas that has obviously. As you've laid out, you believe no true interest in helping the actual people of Gaza, though they have been in power in Gaza for 20 years. On the other side, you have Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu who sees Hamas as a politically expedient... I mean, the quote of him saying to Israeli police that we didn't start the fire, but we can control the height of the flames is truly damning. But in the middle, you have the people of Gaza, two plus million people who are essentially trapped in this meat grinder, to put it bluntly, of radicalism and sort of political nihilism. But these are the two groups that the U.S. is ostensibly trying to broker a peace plan with. Neither side has any actual interest in peace. I mean, the fact that Benjamin Netanyahu rejected the latest proposal comes as a surprise to no one. I think maybe the greater surprises that Hamas said yes. But the proposal doesn't actually even really require Hamas to do that much. So where do you go? Where do you go if both sides in a negotiation, they actually have the same interest, which is no peace. Well, and I will.

gladly share that, but the most important thing, there's a narrative takeaway. Like, do I think that Israel bears responsibility for what has gone on in Gaza before October 7th and since? Absolutely. I mean, I have 100% that's undeniable. However, Just because someone set a trap for you doesn't mean you walk right into it. If you see a bare trap right in front of you, you don't walk right into it and say, oh, my God, they set a trap for me. Similarly, my thesis, my point is that within the imbalance of power dynamics between Israel and the Palestinians, who are much more disadvantage on every... metric of power. There very much so still is space for Palestinian agency, responsibility, and accountability. And that is not blaming the Palestinians. That is not blaming the victims. That is not a form of self-hatred. Some of my detractors say to me, that's actually the first step in powering the Palestinian people, recognizing that Palestinian people. specifically their leadership, specifically Hamas, made a decision, made a series of choices to squander the 2005 withdrawal, to militarize Gaza, to basically get in bed with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and enable the far right in Israel, and finally to launch the deadliest single-day attack on the Jewish people and thereby triggering the worst catastrophic episode for the Palestinian people in contemporary history. So that promotion of agencies... what's missing from the discourse. It's what's missing from the pro-Palestan activism groups. It's missing from a lot of Palestinian-American diaspora communities from even Palestinians in the land, mainly in the West Bank, but it's also missing from the intellectual discussion. As far as the deal itself, I actually think Hamas very much so recognizes that it has hit a dead end. It's looking regionally at a weakened Iran, at an isolated Hezbollah. It's looking at basically a Qatar that can no longer pump it. full of billions of dollars. It's looking at catastrophe. The international community isn't pumping a penny in Gaza with Hamas and control. And so they realized that the era of armed resistance, as we've known it before October 7th, is very much so over. On the other end, we saw... remarks from the Trump administration that they're not surprised by Benjamin Netanyahu's rejections of the deal. They said verbatim, the quotes, according to Israeli media, that the Trump officials are not bothered because they understand this is electioneering, this is messaging, this is posturing. But Israel, too, is very much so while it retains control of almost 70% of Gaza, it has full and complete domination over Gaza. It's also out of options. The elusive, complete victory that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu promised for three years is not here, and it's not going to be here. As much as I, too, would like to see Hamas decimated and destroyed, this is very much, though, the only viable path in which you have something in the middle of what we did in Iraq in 2003 as the United States debathification, where we said zero remnants of the old regime whatsoever and what...

In the last three months, 10 months, rather, since the ceasefire in October 2025, Jared Kushner and Steve Witkoff and elements of the Trump administration tried to bribe Hamas through other ways in a different way. And it's like been there, done that guy. So you see the only viable path, meaning the current path that the Trump administration is on and trying to broker this piece. Is that, is that what you're saying? Very much so. As far as disarmament. and partial, partial reintegration of elements of Gaza's administration. Hamas the government is separating Hamas the government from Hamas the terror entity from the casual members of Hamas. Okay. But if this is, in your view, the only viable path, then that path, neither party can take a step forward in that path concretely for as long as Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is still in office. That's conceivably the case, although whether it's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, whether it's Yeira Lipid, whom I saw speak at the Atlantic Council a couple of weeks ago, whether it's Naftali Bennett, whether it's anybody. There is very much so only cosmetic differences between all the viable candidates or Gadi Eisencott. Only cosmetic differences as far as the core security. philosophy and apparatus's like systemic approach to Gaza between all the candidates. There is messaging and comms and public relations differences. And I think I would welcome a new Israeli government where you don't have ministers. talking about just slaughtering the people or forcibly expelling them or starving them and getting them to leave under the guise of voluntary migration. I think that that's a helpful first step. But beyond that, all of them are going to insist on continued Israeli control that will only gradually, gradually receive after verifiable. There's nothing to trust about Hamas, as Niklaim Ladnav, whom I know personally, the head of the Board of Peace, verifiable. measures that ensured Hamas' disarmament, the dismantling of the tunnels, and that areas gradually get taken over by a new Palestinian police apparatus and the international security force. There's one last thing that I do at least want to touch on with you. We mentioned at the top is the criticisms that you have received, seemingly from all corners, but especially from supporters of Palestinians who are in the West. Okay, because I believe that there's some new article that was written about you that claims that you're being paid $30 million by Israel to promote genocide. Others call you one of those Palestinians who is so self-hating. They support Israel. Even as you have actually, you know, frequently you've said, well, you believe that Hamas are bloodthirsty terrorists. You've also said openly that you believe that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is a war criminal.

And yet people have threatened your life. They've threatened your wife and children, although you don't have a wife and child. I just wonder what your message is to, you know, especially in the United States, there's a whole cohort of folks here right now who are ascending in power who look at Palestinian, quote unquote, resistance in any way, shape, or form to Israel as something that should be supported without question. Absolutely. So there's being pro-Palestine, and then there's being, like actually pro-Palestine, and then there's being part of the pro-Palestine industrial complex. And that latter industrial complex has produced academics, as produced supposed journalists, has produced online personalities, social media activists, some politicians, folks who either leverage the Palestinian issue for self-gain, they are ignorant, they don't want to hear. Inconvenient voices. Palestinians against Hamas or Palestinians for peace or Palestinians who are moderates as much as I loathe the term moderates. But these these are inconvenient voices. There's enforced conformity and forced cohesion. to prevent any disparate voices, the same people that embrace being fluid and open-minded, they have this binary approach to the Palestinian diaspora voice. I actually care about my people. It is precisely why I want to criticize Hamas, not in service of Israel, but in service of the people of Gaza and a much better future. Well, Ahmed Fuad al-Katib, he's a resident senior fellow at the Atlantic Council and author of Hamas and its two million hostages. Ahmed, thank you so much for joining us. Appreciate the opportunity. Thank you. I'm Magna Chakra-Bardi. This is On Point. Mary Weather Lewis and William Clark journeyed across the continent in their famed expedition, but these days we make it sound like it was just the two of them. If the captains could have a time machine and come here and they saw everybody talking about Lewis and Clark, I think they would have been a little surprised. The lesser-known members of the Corps of Discovery and the mark they made on American History. That's on the next On Point.

Best thing that's ever happened to you financially. Go. Easy. Sold my car on Carvana. Amazing offer. Really? I hit 200 on a scratcher. Did the scratcher come to your house and hand you a check? No. How many scratchers did you hit to get that? I hit a button on Carvana.com once. Okay, that's fair. It's like the lottery, except you always win. Not like the lottery at all, actually. Exactly. Inexplicably good. Offers worth bragging about. Sell your car today on Carvana. Pickup viz may apply.