Illinois Schools Head Back To Class… And Have To Deal With A.I.

This WBEZ podcast is supported by Med Global, a Chicago-based charity bringing health care and hope to vulnerable communities worldwide. By partnering with local leaders, health professionals, volunteers, and humanitarians, Med Global provides emergency relief and builds resilient health systems that last. Learn how you can help respond to humanitarian crises with an affordable donation at medglobal.org. Hey, Chicago, I'm Sasha Ann Simons, and this is In The Loop. Stick around till the end of the episode to get a rundown of the latest local news stories with a panel of journalists. But first, if artificial intelligence hasn't made it to your kids' classroom yet, well, safe to say it's only a matter of time before it does. And that's whether schools are ready for it or not. Illinois education officials have released new guidance to help K-12 schools figure out how AI could safely fit into teaching and learning. But with more than 850 districts making their own decisions, There isn't just one playbook. Meanwhile, J.B. Pritzker recently signed new AI safety measures in place. So, how are students, teachers, and parents navigating this ever-changing technology in real time? That's what we'll dig into in this episode of the pod. At the table with me was Cassie Cresswell, who's a CPS High School parent and executive director of Illinois Families for public schools. Professor William Hubbard, who's the chair of Youth Chicago Law School's AI Committee, and Makaya Seminera, who's a reporter for Chalk Beach, Chicago. In a few minutes, we'll get caught up on how things are going in Township High School District 214, which includes Arlington Heights and Wheeling. That district already has an AI policy in place. But we started here. Last month, the Illinois Board of Education issued a 400-page AI guidance to school districts, so Makaya gave us the main takeaways from the document. Here she is. There's a lot to parse through in that 400-page document, like you said. But, you know, the Illinois State Board of Education guidance really kind of revolves around four key tenants. And they make sure to remind you very frequently throughout the 400 pages that this is kind of, you know, what they're centered on. But the first tenant is the importance of human relationships. The second being a school serve not just an academic purpose, but a developmental and civic. purpose. AI is meant to inform teaching rather than to be the teaching, and then also to make sure that the guidance is deliberate, context-specific, and, you know, locally determined for, you know, local school districts. So what did the crafting of the guidance?

look like? Who was involved in that process? Yeah. So the guidance really kind of touts this, they call it a blue ribbon panel of experts. And, you know, these panel of experts kind of come from a variety of backgrounds. You have folks from Code AI, Khan Academy, Brookings, Institution. But then you also have folks from, you know, the state education department that all kind of came together to create this guidance. Yeah. And Cassie, as I mentioned, your child. attends CPS High School. So tell me your initial reaction to the new AI guidance. It's certainly very long. I feel like it reads more like a treatise on AI and education and doesn't really have the concrete... instructions and procedures that I think school districts actually need right now and that schools need right now. Say more on that. I think there are some bright lines that we should actually be putting down. And to have this 400-page document with only about 10 pages in the district policy section, that's not enough. in terms of what we actually need for schools and teachers and students and parents to know. And how has AI been showing up in your child's classroom? She has used a couple applications herself, and she's had teachers using generative AI. And to be honest, she was not very happy with that. And in fact, it actually led to some conversations with teachers. And she write a letter at one point? She actually wrote a letter this summer to a teacher. And interestingly, the teacher's response was that she had been... pushed by some sort of initiative to use this technology and, in fact, was not planning to go ahead using it in the future because she wasn't happy with it either, actually. I'm really curious to hear more about your daughter's perspective, just hearing it from the student. What is it that really pushed her to write the letter? What does she not like about this? I mean, the sort of thing where they were getting AI feedback on their writing, her and I think, you know, her classmates also were like, this. You read it initially, you're like, oh, that's sort of interesting and maybe that's okay feedback. And then you get a couple more replies and you're like, wait, that's really similar to what I saw before. I know this piece of writing isn't that strong. This seems pretty sycophantic and not super helpful. And how much of Lake Michigan did some machine just use to give us this slop? Yeah. Remember the days when, you know, your teacher, a human would actually, you know, grade your essays? Yeah. Professor Hubbard, this guidance that we were talking about from the state, it's specific to K to 12 schools, but AI is something that higher education is also grappling with.

So talk to us about that because you're currently at the helm of the University of Chicago Law School's AI Committee. So what's the strategy that you all have come up with over there? Thank you, Sasha Ann, for this opportunity to be here. At the University of Chicago Law School, we... felt a need to respond to two big changes that were underway. One is that the legal profession itself sees itself being transformed by AI. And the other is that, as we've already been discussing here today, AI creates opportunities, but it also creates threats for the educational environment. And we wanted to make sure that we were responsive to that. And the focus of our strategy is... Threefold. First, we want to ensure that our students have exposure to AI tools to prepare them professionally. But more importantly, the core things that students learn in law school are not how to use AI, but how to think. And the goal there is what I like to refer to as AI resilient pedagogy. What does that mean? And what that means is designing our teaching in a way that steer students. towards AI uses that may be constructive to their education and steers them away from AI uses that would not be constructive, designing the classroom in such a way that sometimes they don't even have devices with them. So, for example, in the first year, there'll be no laptops in the classroom because we really want to emphasize the importance of human-to-human interaction, thinking on your feet, learning for yourself rather than relying on devices to do the thinking. for you. And these are law students, right? So you want to do this effectively and ethically. Right. So we think a lot about the fact that they're going to be going into a profession where there are very important ethical responsibilities. And in the classroom setting, that starts with how you learn. Yeah, sure. So, Mackay, what are you hearing from districts about, you know, what they've been doing since this new AI guidance was issued in July and whether they were even prepared? Yeah, no, I think, you know, I haven't heard too much from districts on the AI policy, but what I will say is, you know, this is kind of an influx of a lot of information and kind of dependent on, you know, where you're kind of at with your AI usage in schools, you know, you might kind of react to this differently. You know, if you're a district who, you know, hasn't really... done a lot with AI and doesn't have a policy, then you might see this guidance maybe as good news on somewhere to start, but then also maybe a little bit overwhelming because you don't know where to maybe start with this document. as opposed to maybe a school district like CPS that already has an AI guidebook and might kind of see a lot of the same stuff that they've already reiterated in there. Information overload right now. Yes. Joining us right now via Zoom is Katie Page. Now, she's the instructional technology coordinator in District 214. I just want to check in with her briefly. Hey, Katie, welcome back to the show.

Hi, thanks for having me back. So you're back because your district already has an AI policy in place. So talk to us about how your policy aligns with this new guidance we're discussing. Yeah. First of all, I would say pretty much yes to almost everything your guests have said so far. It's a yes and. We actually didn't wait for the state. We integrated into our policy years ago, especially around academic integrity involving AI. For those of you that don't know, chat GPT landed in 2022. So we've actually been having these discussions around AI for a long time. And we also, like CPS, have an AI guidebook for our staff and students. And we do parent education. You know, I feel like we're pretty well seated when this dropped. And it aligns really closely, keeping the human in the loop, being context sensitive, you know, all of the things. I feel like we were pretty much right on track with what they provided in July. Your school is also a so-called Google Gemini district. Quickly explain what that means and how it works. Yeah, so I feel like most districts, if you look across the country, are Google workspace districts because Gmail was free. So it was the platform that public schools jumped in on right away. And as a part of Google, their AI platform that is similar to chat, GPT or Claude, is called Gemini. And it is just part of our education enterprise environment. So it comes with all the guardrails, the safety. that comes along with our agreements with Google. What are the guiding principles of your district's policy? And the guardrails, too. Yeah, so we definitely lead with Human in the Loop. We had our Innovation and Change Committee, which is a group of close to 70 volunteers in the district, which is crazy when you think about it, come together to really put all of these things together. And we're trying to move away from policing, which is a little bit what I was hearing your parent talk about using like scanners and things like that. And we're really trying to move to a redesign mindset like they're doing at University of Chicago. So we're having our staff kind of take a really hard look at the curriculum that we have. And we're going to build our assignments so that the thinking can't be outsourced to AI. And so that's really our focus, I think, in these days that we're sitting in today. And if a portion of this AI policy is meant to save teachers and staff time, Katie,

What does this free them up to do? And who gets to decide? Well, in District 214, we have teacher autonomy. So the teacher gets to decide what they want to use AI for or not. And we have some staff that won't touch it. You know, I heard someone reference the environmental impacts. And some even students are not wanting to use it. But some staff that do use it, they'll use it to help them triage their email. Any of you that are in the working world know that your email can just be monstrous to tackle. They can use it too to iterate. I like to make sure that staff have their context files set up ahead of time, deeply detailed context files, governance files that they are attaching and looping into their AI systems from the start. So before they even put in a prompt, it's already miles ahead of where it would have been if it were just cold. So it's going to help them to. build a lesson plan if they would like to or differentiate assignments for students if they have multiple learning styles in their classroom, things like that. So before I let you go back to preparing for the first day at District 214, tell me what you would advise other districts or families, whether they're super eager or they're hesitant around the use of AI in schools. What would you say? I would say for districts and teachers in particular, don't skip redesigning your assignment. So just having a new tool without redesigning your tasks is just going to create a bigger integrity problem. And I would say for families, maybe modeling the same transparency that we're asking for staff and kids at schools. So talking about how you're using AI, when it's a good idea to use it, when you should just be using your brain, all of those good, hard conversations. And then parents should ask their district, I guess, about their agreements and guardrails. We do a parent series a couple times a year where we invite people to come join us via Zoom and we talk. We just try to be real transparent about how everyone is using it or not using it, the safety and the guardrails. We'll leave it there. Katie Page is the instructional technology coordinator in District 214, which is in the northwest suburbs, including Arlington Heights and Wheeling. Katie, thank you for checking in with us. Thanks. Have a great day. Our panel is still here. We've got Cassie Creswell, who's a CPS high school parent, William Hubbard, with you Chicago Law School and Makaya Seminara of Chalk Beach, Chicago. Cassie, I got to get your reaction to what we were just hearing from Katie in District 214. So there were a Google Gemini school, right, or district, rather. Your thoughts? Because I heard from our producers that you saw some kind of clues that maybe CPS might be heading in that direction.

Yeah, there's a couple different CPS documents that are saying that they're going to roll out Google Gemini for high school students this fall. What do you think about that? I'm really concerned. I mean, even within CPS's own documents and guidance for instructors, it actually still says that Google Gemini is not ready for students and there's not enough guardrails in particular in there. And so I don't know what... will have changed, you know, in two weeks when school starts. But certainly I think there's been essentially no information for families about this. Yeah. And students. And, you know, when you look at Google's own documentation and one of their suggestions for how students can use Gemini is, hey, help me about this homework problem. And it seems really open-ended and you'll get, yeah. And, you know, that's really... Sounds like it'll be doing the work for you, which is the overall fear here. Makaya, tell me more about how schools are... or whether, I should say, they're prepared. I talked with Katie there about, you know, how they design this policy. Are the schools here in Chicago, you know, prepared to design their own AI policy given this new guidance? Do they have the resources in place already? Yeah, I mean, like I said before, I think, you know, it's dependent on which district you're in. But what I think, you know, the essence of this guidance really gets at is that. you're going to have to become prepared to some extent. You know, there's a lot of talk and the guidance about, you know, preparing students civically for, you know, an AI society, you know, being able to function, you know, in the workplace, you know, to... Does it talk about, like, social impacts of AI as well, like cyberbullying? Yes. Or... the potential of like over-reliance on chatbots for social-emotional needs. We've heard so many really dark things can come from that. Yeah, no, I mean, they're, you know, in this 400-page document again, you know, there's a lot of, a lot of talk, you know, there's a section about social-emotional learning kind of... scenarios that teachers might find themselves in, such as, you know, generating maybe a story with AI. And then maybe the AI kind of takes a weird hallucination turn that might alarm, you know, a younger child and kind of dealing with that. But then also, you know, part of the bill that kind of, you know, ushered in this guidance. Part of that was also, you know, the capacity for AI-generated deep fakes and things like that, being a part of cyberbullying now in schools. So, Professor, one of the biggest concerns about AI in classrooms is that it could harm students' critical thinking. We heard some of that coming from Cassie, who's right next to you. How do you think schools can respond to that concern? It's a very real one. I think it is a very real one. And the way that I approach questions like that is to begin with what I like to...

call the paradox of learning with AI, which is that in the legal professional space, we hear about how AI is this amazing productivity tool. It can speed things up, it can make work easier. The paradox in the educational context is the way that you learn is through struggle by spending time and effort with something that's difficult. And so... AI, if what it's doing is, I think Cassie put it this way, doing the work for you, it's actually defeating the entire purpose of education. So the paradox to me is the way that AI can be constructive in an educational setting is actually by making the work harder, not easier, by making you do more work, not doing the work for you. And so one of the things that we encourage our students to use AI for is if you want to give yourself more practice problems, if you want to quiz yourself outside of class, if you want to use AI as a study partner to push you harder, that's great. But what we don't want you doing is using AI to do the work for you that we want you to bring to class. We want it to be your own work. And when you're in class, we want you to be present and participating. And I think that's the overall principle. And something I like that you said, too, about, you know, what you've done with your committee implementing this for your students is, you know, The policy, it's not set in stone. We're constantly looking at ways to make this better. Cassie, your organization, Illinois Families for Public Schools, you're calling on Chicago school board candidates to pledge a three-year moratorium on generative AI use in schools. Tell me quickly about the ask and what you hope to see during a pause like that. So that's one part of a four-part pledge that we're asking about asking candidates to pledge to. And the other components are also really tied to privacy and to screen time. And we really think that we need a holistic look at how tech has been rolled out in CPS over the last decade plus, how it's accelerating, and whether we're really actually... dealing with overuse and misuse of tech in our classrooms. And so we want this pause on generative AI tech in particular to take a time to actually get input from experts and also stakeholders. The CPS policy that is there now, it's not policy, it's a guidebook. And there really was not input from teachers, families, students as they wrote that. And so... This needs to basically be restarted, and we need to have something that's very concrete about the risks and the harms and how to prevent those. As this is ever evolving, as I said earlier, I'm sure we'll talk more about this. But for now, we'll wrap it here. That's Cassie Cresswell with the Illinois Families for Public Schools, Professor William Hubbard, who's chair of the UChicago Law School's AI Committee, and Makaya Seminera, who's a reporter for Chop Beach, Chicago. Thank you all so much. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks.

Okay, now let's get right to what Chicago's talking about. At the table to help me break down the biggest local headlines and stories of the day was Claire Lane, WBEZ morning edition anchor, Michael Puente, WVEZ reporter and Weekend Anchor, and Violet Miller, Chicago Sun Times reporter. It was such a busy weekend here in the city, and for many, it was also the official back-to-school kickoff with the Bud Billiken parade, which marched down Martin Luther King Drive on Saturday. Mike started off by explaining who Bud Billiken is. That is the number one question. Who was Bud Billikin? Well, Bud Bellickin is a fictional character. He was the mascot created in 1923 by Robert Greg Abbott, the founder of the Chicago Defender, African American newspaper. So it's a fictional character, but it was made popular to highlight black youth in the city and to also be sort of the unofficial kickoff to the new school year. And you got the who's who's that show up, right? You got politicians. You got lots of hundreds of thousands of people. That's right. The mayor, the governor was there. You had Cedric, the entertainer, Anthony Anderson, other actors and entertainers. It's just a really fun time down there. And you get to see Cheryl Burton do, you know, the double Dutch. Yes. That's so true. Our producers were out there. They were talking to folks. We asked them what the Bud Billiken parade means to them. So here's Ken Butler. He's with the St. Andrews Hornets Drum and Bugle Corps on the west side.

I performed in the bud as a young man back in the late 1970s. She was always an opportunity for us to perform, and I'm pretty sure the kids today share their same excitement. Because you get the opportunity to perform not in just front of so many people, but your friends, your family, and hopefully get some TV time. So this was the 97th year of the bud, and we also spoke to Jacqueline Stewart. She talked about the long, prolific history of the parade. I founded the South Side Home Movie Project 20 years ago. And one of my dreams was to collect footage of the Bud Billiken parade because I knew if people were filming their everyday lives, they filmed their time coming out for this parade every year. And we got a huge collection in 300 films. When you see Althea Gibson and Sidney Poitiers in this parade over the years, Joe Lewis as the Grand Marshal of the parade. And we have some footage from the 1940s where you can see they're doing footwork. Ooh, I could hear the juke people. was going. The juke beat behind Jacqueline. Oh my gosh. What a fun time it sounds like. Claire, this week marks back to school for some districts. What? Back to school shopping, too. It's wild. It really flies by, but even some suburban districts, so this is community high school district 218. Back tomorrow. Oh, my goodness. The freshmen showing up. A Cook County School District 130, so this is like Olsip, Blue Island, Crestwood Robbins. They're back on the 17th. CPS back in action, the 24th, this you know. But back to school shopping already happening across the city and the burbs. And it's not cheap. But apparently in Chicago this year, K through 12 parents. are expected to spend nearly $800. per child on supplies. I can't even imagine. I think that this is the perfect year that my children are both in college. What did they want now? Remember when all we needed was a pack of jelly rolls and that was it? A new lunchbox? Yeah, no. That's right. A new lunchbox. More specialty folders. Electronic now. Oh, my gosh. So this, this nearly $800 per child that's 35% higher than the national average, which is around $557 a kid. This is all according to a Deloitte survey that apparently is showing that the children are to blame. It's their preferences that are influencing their parents to spend more money. These kids are too high maintenance. I knew it. They want them to splurge. What are they splurging on? That's what I don't understand. They need a new eye something. It's got to be the clothes. I was just going to say if clothes are included, that'll be it. That's it. It's the first day fit. Although I wouldn't mind having a new Spider-Man lunch box. Is there some temporary relief coming, though, Claire? That is correct, Sasha. So sometimes reporting Illinois residents, and this has been happening for several years now, but can receive some relief on their back to school spending. Now through the 16th of August, closed buying school-related items, you could save about 5% on sales tax. So again, this is something we're familiar with in the state, but with inflation right now, that 5% savings on sales tax could add up to something, potentially put some cash.

back in your pocket, because then you can spend it on your kids for Christmas when their lists are going to be even more astronomical. It goes back to your offspring anyway. See how that works? All right, let's turn to a story, Violet, that frankly, I mean, it was on the front page of the Sun Times last week, and it shocked me. I know it must have shocked others. The far Southside funeral home where more than 50 bodies were found decomposing. There are some updates today. So first, remind us of the original story here. What happened? Yeah, so, you know, investigators last week discovered some potential, you know, improper treatment of human remains at the Southside Chapel in South Deering. You know, upon further inspection, they found, you know, 57 bodies. And... You know, days later then went to go back. The owner tried to lock the doors, keep police out. They eventually broke in. And then the process began of trying to reunite families with their, you know, loved ones remains. The medical examiner over the weekend saying to expect more information on this today. I know some families that my colleagues have spoken to over the weekend were, you know, told they will, in fact, be able to have those remains released to them soon. hopefully, you know, again, more on that for those families, some of which who were showing up on Thursday night to come in and see if they could find any information about what was going on. So there is some kind of movement, but, you know, in a large part, some of these families are still, there's still uncertainty, right? Yes. And from what we know, no charges have been filed. The state's attorney's office is not, you know, involved in this yet. Interesting. But I expect there would be, you know, more to come on that at some point. And in related news, Violet, a Chicago cemetery is under investigation. What is happening there? Yeah, so obviously with this prior story in the mind, it kind of, I think, shades the way maybe folks might see this. This is definitely a different story seemingly from what we know so far. You know, the Illinois Comptroller's Office, which regulates crematoriums in the state, began investigating Bohemian National Cemetery Association's Crematorium, said that there were reports of, you know, potentially, again, mistreatment of human remains, malfunctioning equipment. Investigators went on scene and found exactly that. However, in that case, it seems that Bohemian National Cemetery was able to cremate those remains, get those remains back to those families of the 35 individuals who were found there. And so that is still under investigation, but we were just kind of waiting to see on what that's going to look like in terms of potential fine penalties, suspension of license, you know, different things that are on the table. Let's talk about that flooding yesterday, Claire. Any surprises at this point? Because, you know, we've been seeing that month plus of extreme weather. But, you know, what's the forecast looking like? Well, we got some very heavy downpours yesterday afternoon, and then again we were hit overnight. Yeah. And now there is more on the way. A couple of systems making their way through scattered thunderstorms sort of earlier this afternoon, but then National Weather Services issued officially a hazardous weathered outlook for tonight. So what the system is bringing tonight could be some of those very heavy downpours like we saw yesterday, a relentless wind, even possible hail.

and this is for Cook County, the Chicago area, also Northwest Indiana, since Mike's in the room. O'Hare yesterday saw over an inch of rainfall yesterday. And ComEd reported that even as of this morning, 4,000 customers had been affected by yesterday's weather. So still impacting power lines. There's still debris from systems earlier this summer. So, you know, I think it's all contributing to just sort of the stack. of unresolved weather issues. Absolutely. The systems just seem far more intense this year. I know we've come used to summers where we've got the rain, we've got the heavy winds, but it just seems much more impactful. Anybody else get caught in any of the downpours? I know better. I was inside the house, but it really downpored where I live in northwest Indiana. Thank you. And we lost power for about an hour. Did you? Oh, no. No, not again. But it was only for an hour. So I was just running errands and had to get my car out of a parking. By the time I got back to my car, you know, getting out of the store, I could only see the top half of my tires. I was like, okay, time to go. To be honest, I have not really been buying many groceries with the fear that the power is going to go out and the fridge is going to be on. the fritz. It's just something I don't want to risk right now with sort of all the rampant down power lines we've been dealing with. Other stories that you're following, Claire? Well, another Chicago-centric story. Chicago-style hot dogs will soon be on the menu. at Vienna Beef's Bucktown headquarters, but you're going to have to wait until next spring to receive a dog at that location. So this is the development they've been working on, calling it the Vienna Beef Plaza, initially slated to reopen under this overhaul in 2024, but that's now been delayed another year. This is that Bucktown site where Elston and Damon intersect. It was Vienna's factory home for decades and decades. They now produce most of their products out of a Bridgeport facility. reporting that this overhaul is taking time because there's now going to be restaurants, corporate offices, a store, and some other retail. So something to keep our eye on. Keep our eyes on. Okay. Well, something Mike, I'm sure, was keeping his eye on this weekend was a pretty big one for White Sox icon Ozzy Gien. What happened? Absolutely. I mean, Ozzy Gian has just become this sort of... I mean, what can he say about him? Former baseball player for the White Sox, rookie of the year in 1985, former All-Star shortstop, then leaves the White Sox, comes back hired as their manager and wins the World Series for them in 2005. So this weekend, they retired as number 13 number, just an emotional day. So many former players from the White Sox, Roberto Hernandez, Ron Kittle, Bo Jackson. just a who's who in the building for Ozzy Guy. And the thing about Ozzy is that he's always been very honest. He speaks first before sometimes thinking, but that's what people love about him. A lot of times it's gotten him into trouble. But in this case, people love him for it. And he talked a little, he's a native of Venezuela. So he talked a little bit about the troubles facing the country, especially the earthquake.

And so that's always on his mind. But, you know, he's the second shortstop in White Sox history to have his number retired. The first one with Luis Apparicio also from Venezuela. So he's in that long line of just prolific shortstop for the White Sox. And now he had his number retired. His name is in the rafters over there. And I love that he chose this moment for such a heartfelt speech, too. Right. Exactly. You know, and, you know, it's in some ways we didn't think this was going to happen because he was fired by the White Sox in 2011, really big brouhaha with Kenny Williams. He goes to Miami and had his troubles there. But, you know, time heals all wounds, so to speak. He's beloved on Chicago Sports Network. And, again, people love his honesty. He has a lot of fun. And so congratulations to. Ozzy Gien and his family. You could just tell his family is number one with him. And he gets a free trip to Japan where Munutaka Marakami, he's demanding that he gives him a tour over there. So just a great time to be a White Sox fan, historic day for short. On the opposite end, though, Violet, it was kind of a rough weekend for the Chicago sky. Yeah, coming up just short Saturday night against the Indiana fever. You know, some of the starters were struggling a little bit. But, you know, points came off the bench as well. You know, Stevens shooting three for 13, struggling in that starter position. But, you know, Natasha Cloud putting up 17 points, you know, shooting 67% from the field. Carrying the team. Yeah, for sure. And DeJane Carrington also, you know, getting injected pretty early on for a flagrant. Still putting up eight points, suiting 100% from the field. That follows against Sophie Cunningham, who's put herself in the spotlight recently, touting some right-wing politics on the court. She put up three points in her 17 minutes, so she was struggling as well. WBE's Claire Lane and Michael Puente and Violet Miller from the Sun-Times.

This episode of The In The Loop podcast was produced by me, Maha Ahmed. And me, Ginny Kim. It was edited by Ethan Schwab. Sasha Ann Simons is our host. For more in-depth coverage of news and culture in Chicago, be sure to subscribe to this podcast. For a full archive of the show, head over to wbZ.org slash in the loop. Thanks for listening. Thank you.