Illinois Is Protecting Kids From The Infinite Scroll

Join WBEZ at John Roberts Westside for the fifth annual Food Aid Festival on August 21st and 22nd. This year features headliner Shemika Copeland, plus a block party on day two. Learn more at WBEZ.org slash events. Hey, Chicago, I'm Sasha Ann Simons, and this is In The Loop. Be sure to stick around to the end of the podcast for a rundown of the day's top local stories. But first, J.B. Pritzker's got kids and how to protect them on social media on his mind. Big tech companies understand and have confessed to how their algorithms can harm children, yet they refuse to take meaningful action on their own. So we are going to start by requiring real change. Social media can be a place for kids to connect, learn, and find community. But there's growing concern about what all that scrolling can do to their mental health. Now, Illinois has joined a growing number of states that are putting new rules in place for how social media companies interact with minors. The Children's Social Media Safety Act is meant to give young people protection online, though some of its requirements are also raising privacy concerns. So what do these changes mean for Illinois families? In this episode of the pod, the panel of experts will break it down. At the table was Devorah Heitner, who's author of two books, Screenwise, helping kids thrive and survive in their digital world, and Growing Up in Public. Marsni Chetty, who's a professor of computer science at the University of Chicago, and she leads the Amioli Internet Research Lab, which studies how to make the internet more trustworthy, and Mawa Ikbal, WBEZ's senior statehouse reporter. I started by getting reactions from panelists about this move by the state. Devoro went first. I appreciate the way this bill holds companies accountable and doesn't put the onus on parents. But I also believe that we need to be making the algorithm less invasive for all and not just children. And that would get us to a better place in terms of not having invasive age verification. So I think there's... The good pieces that we're not putting this all on parents and saying, parents just need to, 24-7 supervise their kids and very unrealistic expectations on families that have been really unfair. But pushing back on the privacy invasions and the manipulation needs to be universal, not just for children. Marshani, what comes to mind as you see this move from J.B. Pritzker?

I mean, I think it's just a recognition that social media companies and the effects on children can be harmful. And so I think it's a step in the right direction. It's one approach to make sure that, you know, kind of like DeVoro is saying that we're holding social media companies accountable. And I think that is a step in the right direction. It's also great that it has bipartisan support. Mawa, the bipartisan bill was a major priority for the governor. So talk to us about what the discussion was like in Springfield ahead of its passing. Yeah, so every year, J.B. Pritzker, during his budget address in February, will kind of unveil his list of legislative priorities. And usually because he is a Democratic governor and, you know, of course, the legislature is super majority Democrat, much of his priorities do get over the finish line. This year he had, you could tell there was definitely a recurring theme with children and how children interact with technology and social media in general, right? So I know we've talked about on this show, the law that restricts cell phone use in schools. So these two things kind of go hand in hand in that regard, right? Essentially lawmakers wanted to protect kids from what they called addictive social media feeds. And they, as well as like other supporters like parents and child advocates, believe that the kids who are addicted to social media, kind of like what we heard in the clip from J.B. Pritzker, you know, it has these all kinds of negative effects on their mental health, their self-esteem. how they do in school, and they could even be more vulnerable to bullying and predatory behavior online from adults. So you could tell that this legislation was definitely top of mind and a high priority for many, many lawmakers and obviously also the governor's office. Yeah, and the governor also stressing, right, you know, this is not a ban on kids being able to use social media. We're not trying to take that away. This isn't censorship. So that we're clear, tell us the guardrails that are in place. That's right. So basically, all users will have to verify their age. And if a user, you know... verifies that they are under the age of 18. They can still log on and use the apps like everyone else who's older, but the key differences here are that the apps can't use the minor users viewing history or data that's stored onto their phones to determine what shows up in their feeds. So this is data that could be, you know, from other apps that the minor or the child uses. Instead, the feeds will have to be content that users specifically searched for or was posted by a creator. that this child follows, right? They also can't, the apps can't enable the content to play automatically when the user scrolls. I know that that's something that all of us who've used, like TikTok, for example, or Instagram Reels have encountered where you just keep scrolling, scrolling, scrolling, and the videos don't stop, right? Yeah, they've got a term for that, don't they? Yeah, it's infinite scroll. Yes, yeah, yeah. So the other guardrail, too, is that the apps can't send nighttime notifications to the child. So between the hours of 10,

p.m. and 7 a.m. They also can't learn the child's exact location, geolocation, and there's specific guard worlds around how minors get private messages and DMs from accounts who are adult users that they don't follow. Now, you may remember Facebook whistleblower Francis Howigan, right? She was a product manager on the civic misinformation team over at Facebook, later Meta, who testified to Congress about the harms to children and democracy. I want to play a little bit of her during a 60 Minutes interview back in 2021. Facebook's own research says, it is not just that Instagram is dangerous for teenagers, that it harms teenagers, is that it is distinctly worse than other forms of social media. So, Devorah, I look to you now because I want you to talk about what research says about the effects that social media has on kids' mental health. Because we hear them paired together all the time, but what does the data show? So we know that social media can be a comparison machine, whether that's about body image, where someone else is getting into college or going on vacation. So it has that effect on all of us, but for teens, the developmental need to fit in and compare with peers is already hardwired. Like that's part of the process of coming of age. So. apps like Instagram or Snapchat that tell you exactly what your friends are doing in their curated feeds and also tell you where your friends are located so you can see that you're being left out. Those are very manipulative design features and I would like to see pushback on those design features. Again, I don't think age restricting that pushback. I think the risks of age restricting that pushback are very high in terms of requiring kids to share identity documents that put their privacy at risk. But I don't want to see where my friends are on Snapchat either. I think it's going to make me feel bad too. Will it make a 13-year-old feel worse because they have less lived experience? Absolutely. I've literally heard conversations in my house among my kids of like, oh, so-and-so is there and so is that person. I didn't get invited to that. I'm curious, as we talk about social media companies and the data that they have gathered on kids, what do they do with that information? Do we know what happens with it? They demographically target the heck out of everyone, right? So they absolutely know your gender identity. They know the kinds of vulnerabilities you may have. And this is some of the research that Hogan shared in her book and in subsequent interviews was that they knew that girls who were feeling vulnerable around depression or body image were getting targeted then with very pernicious and problematic ads and targeted content that.

could exacerbate those feelings. And that's where the demographic... you know, the demographic data that they're taking from all of us does make us more vulnerable to being targeted. And whether you're a child or an adult, if you're already on a cycle of feeling bad about your body or having depression or feeling left out, this can make it worse. I'm hearing you talk about the negative impacts for all, essentially, here. So, Professor Chetty, let's dig more into that. Algorithms, we know they're uniquely tailored to the user experience, right? To each user. What do platforms... currently use to build a user's feed. I mean, it's kind of like we're saying, like what they're viewing. I feel like they're listening to my conversation too. Everything you do. I need someone to confirm that for me. Yeah. Everything you're doing on there. It's like you're leaving a digital trace and they're using that to basically tailor your feed and then feed you content. So if it is something like maybe I'm seeing my friends in a particular vacation spot, then it's feeding me more reels about that. As I watch more reels, the algorithm learns about what I'm watching and then feeds me more stuff like that. And sometimes some of that research that came out has shown that, you know, teens are getting exposed to sometimes harmful content or things that, you know, kind of is negative or has a lot of engagement, right? Because that's stuff that sells, essentially. And so they're using all of... these metrics to kind of feed you more content, keep you engaged, keep you scrolling with infinite scroll. Right, right. So Mawa mentioned a moment ago that social media companies can't use with this, you know, with this new law. They can't use the data stored on the kids' phones. I mean, do you think this is enough of a change to make a noticeable difference? I mean, I think it's, it definitely is like one of the things in the law is also that instead of giving you an exact age, like you actually set that age up on the device, right? So instead of like, So like on the app store, like say you get an iPhone, you would set up and say, oh, my kid's like between 13 and 18 or something like that, right? And so that's different than going to each app and like changing the age on each app. It's not as precise. It also doesn't necessarily require you to upload an ID and so on. So that's actually good in some ways. You don't get an exact age, so they can't tailor content. quite to you to an exact age. But then they also do kind of know that you're a kid of a certain age, so they could still target you, as DeVoreau was saying. So, I mean, it's good and bad. Yeah. Yeah. Mawa, jump in here. What will social media platforms be able to access now to build an algorithm? Yeah, like I mentioned earlier, they can essentially build an algorithm for minor users based on exclusively what accounts the minor users are following. So it kind of be sort of like, you know, how social media apps back in the old days. Back in the day. Back in the day. When the content you got on your feed is solely because you followed those accounts or are maybe friends with the people who are posting. And this is something that the lawmakers talked about a lot, right? Like Professor Shetty and DeVore mentioned.

too. They were talking about how a lot of young users and particularly girls will get content that sort of plays maybe off their insecurities. And they also brought up concerns about how a lot of these social media apps that use more addictive feeds will push content. That would make people want to buy things. So it's very focused on like, you know, capitalism and consumerism and making sure that you're buying all kinds of products for, you know, your face. So you make. you know, beauty, skin care stuff. And so they flag that as a potential harm as well that the parents have raised. Devorah, are you hopeful that this change will make social media less interesting or addictive for kids? I'm excited that it's changing the conversation. I would also encourage parents and educators to help kids curate their feeds intentionally. So following your friends, blocking content that you do see that's harmful, not clicking on things to quote unquote hate watch it. Teenagers will tell me, oh, I watch that racist or xenophobic content because I'm hate watching it. And I'm like, don't expose yourself to that and don't tell the algorithm you like that because it's just going to send you more and you're making money for that person. I hate watching. I was today years old. So we really need to help kids learn how to curate their feeds intentionally because also for anybody who's listening who has kids currently on social, this isn't really going to come into play. If you have a 15, 16 or 17 year old, your kid is already. out there having these experiences, and this is coming in 2028. So we have to really think about what we're going to teach kids right now, as well as the kids are coming in the future. Now, we did invite meta, Snapchat, and TikTok to be part of this conversation, but we did not hear back by airtime. Professor, the law that we're discussing today, it's going to require verifying a user's age when creating an account from the beginning. So it seems to me, as a mom, that sounds reasonable, right? But there are privacy concerns. So explain that. So as I was saying, if it's at device setup, then it's different. It's not like you're going to each app and you're saying, or lying, like you're over 18. Here, if it's at device set up, like if you get a new phone, you're saying what the age range is, and then the apps are supposed to get those signals and then kind of tailor content based on that. They can also implement other checks themselves, right, and still require you to maybe upload an ID and so on. So, I mean, they're kind of tradeoffs. Like on this one case, kind of like DeVoro is saying, This is only going to go into effect in 28. Yeah, that's right. If you have devices now, this isn't going to help necessarily, right? So you still need protections in place now because app makers and so on have to adjust to this change and platforms have to adjust to this change. And then it kind of is not as heavy-handed as saying, like, everyone has to upload their ID or so on, right? We can tell that you're a parent. But, of course, they always work around. Like, kids... You know, the budget you say something's like banned or you can't have it. Like, they're going to find a way around it. Like if you have a device now that doesn't have the setup or isn't set up after 2028, like you don't set the age, then it's not really going to help. Interesting. Yeah. Devor, the law says any information that conveys the user's age bracket won't be shared with a third party unless legally required.

Does any of that address your concerns? It does to some degree. And again, kids are very smart. And we need to respect that kids are very smart. So say you're trying to restrict your kid at night using the screen time app or a million other apps, your kids can change the time on their phone. They can say that even though they're in Chicago, they're in Mumbai, and it's a different time. And therefore, they should not be restricted during that time. So we need to think about proactively teaching kids why sleep is important. If you're a kid as an athlete, talk to them about how sleep is important for their sport. rather than just focus on taking their phone away. Or actually, I think taking their phone away at night is also a very legitimate thing to do and probably better than trying to outsmart them using these apps and controls. Mawa, I'm curious. How did lawmakers take these privacy concerns into consideration? Yeah, it's interesting because, you know, that concern came up, right, with, you know, people or minor users being required to upload a picture of their driver's licenses or any ID to the app or trying to skirt around, you know, figuring out ways to fudge up how old they actually are. And that was something that in the later version of the bill, they did talk about, you know, the purposes of providing a signal regarding the primary user's age bracket to the covered operators, being the social media platforms. But it was something that, you know, I would say that, through negotiations, when the amendment was changed to kind of get rid of that mandate that they have to upload their ID, once lawmakers discussed that and got that new amendment in, that I think was pretty much... resolved. Yeah. The major concern, I would say, though, around the bill actually came, obviously, from the big tech companies who were talking about how requiring this age verification would restrict the freedom of speech rights, the First Amendment rights for a lot of these social media platforms who, they say, you know, being allowed to show all kinds of content is within their constitutional rights. So this law, Professor Chetty, it's just one approach to making the internet more trustworthy. That's true. Which is the work that you do every day. What else do you want to see in place? I mean, I think that bringing more people into the conversation, kind of like DeVore is saying, this is just a starting point. It's starting to say social media is harmful. We need to do something about it. We need to think about kids who are still learning self-regulation and how to help them manage their relationship with technology. We ourselves, as DeBoro is saying, have trouble managing our relationships with technology? Have I spent four hours on Instagram Reels? I have. So I know. It's tough. And I can't imagine a kid trying to do that. So I think this is a good step in that direction to start that conversation. It's not going to solve everything. Because like I said, they workarounds. It's not going to work right now. It's still going to take some time. Not all the platforms are necessarily going to get on board. If you're using outdated apps and so on, they may not.

you know, feed into the system. Right. And at the end of the day, kind of like DeVore was saying, no technology can solve everything. Like, I feel like you have to be connected with your kids. In our research, we found that if you're helping kids develop agency, like figuring out, like what the relationship should be, having conversations, checking in, sometimes even that is more important than just relying on the phone alone. Interesting. You know, like DeVore was saying, like... Parents are busy. They can't always be checking in. But still, this is just one kind of... you know, one part of a multi-pronged approach. We also mentioned the fact that this law is not going into effect until 28, January 1st to be exact divorce. So any tips for families in the meantime? Absolutely. The idea of keeping your child's sleeping space, their bedroom, internet free is a really great way to promote sleep and mental health. So I know this law will. theoretically change what kids see in their feeds at night, but not having your device is also a great way to get your sleep and unplug and rest. Talking with kids about the way they interact with others, if they've witnessed harmful interactions, if they've seen harmful or misleading content, asking them if they share some ideas that seem harmful, like, oh, what are you watching? And trying to be curious always. And then sharing our own experiences like the experience, Professor, that you just shared, like just... When we find that we've stayed up too late watching something in our own feed or that we feel manipulated by content or it left us feeling worse than when we started, even though we maybe picked up our device to feel better, these are all things we can share with our kids and talk with them proactively about. But I would like to see the companies more regulated, to be clear, just like bike helmets and seatbelts turn out to be good for everyone. And some of those laws start with kids. I think... regulating our privacy and demanding that all users have access to algorithmic privacy is the way to go. So I'd like to see this be for everyone, not just for kids. More of this, right? We're heading in the right direction, though, it sounds like. Mawa, what are you keeping an eye on as we head towards implementation? You know, the Illinois Attorney General's office would essentially enforce the law. And his office has already launched two lawsuits against META and TikTok for what they're calling, you know, providing addictive feeds to social, or providing addictive social media feeds to children. Under this law, violators would be liable for fines of up to $2,500 for each child for unintentional violations, and then up to $7,500 per child for intentional violations. And I think what would be interesting is to see how. the intention piece of it is proven in a court, right? How they play out in a legal challenge? So that's what I'll be keeping my eye out towards. All right. We'll leave it there for now. Mawa Iqbal is WBE's senior statehouse reporter. Marchini Chetty is professor of computer science at the University of Chicago. She also leads the Air Lab or the Amioli Internet Research Lab. And Devorah Heitner is author of two books, Screenwise, helping kids thrive and survive in their digital world and growing up in public. Thank you all so much.

Thanks for sticking with us. Now we'll turn to the top news stories of the day with WBEZ Morning Edition anchor Claire Lane, Chicago Sun Times reporter Caitlin Washburn, and Chicago Sun Time's money reporter, Mariah Rush. That's right, you guessed it. The Chicago area is once again on Stormwatch. Here's Claire with a weather update to kick things off. We're used to it now. Yeah. It's been sort of... Did Stormwatch ever stop? A whirlwind of a summer to say the least National Weather Service has officially issued a severe thunderstorm watch. For us, also portions of north-central Illinois and northwest Indiana until two. So there's potential for some very strong winds. That's probably the biggest threat with this system. Some could reach 85 miles per hour. When does it start? So this could start as early as the end of your show. Oh. And lasting. So when you're trying to catch a 3 p.m. flight, you might be in danger. It's possible that you could. Asking for a friend. You could be in the clear by three. Okay. I think the biggest threat for this will be sort of late morning, early afternoon. But other storms could produce some brief tornadoes, even some hail. And there, of course, potential for more rain. You guessed it tomorrow and Thursday. So that means potential for flooding. Wow. So more flooding. Yeah, more flooding. Suburban reservoirs, they tell us, are near capacity after what we were dealing with, the latter part of Sunday. NBC5 reporting McCook, that's the system's second largest reservoir, already 95% full, right, with more rain on the way. A Thornton Reservoir in the South Burbs, around 60% full. So as always, water... reclamation district, sorry, urging people to use less water so if you don't have to shower. don't shower or maybe wait to wash your dishes. That's a common one as well. Yeah, for sure. Let's pivot to some other news, Claire, because there was a shooting at a CPS school yesterday. What happened there? Yeah, this is kind of a said story, at least based on what we know so far, two custodians fatally shot inside of a Chicago public school. Police sent a statement, a 63-year-old man and a 48-year-old woman were each found with a single gunshot wound to the head. This was inside of Mark Twain Elementary School. in Garfield Ridge yesterday, reporting it was an apparent murder suicide. Sometimes reports that both individuals were taken to Christ Medical Center. They were pronounced deceased. Why any students present? So that's a really good question. No students at the school. CPS thankfully doesn't begin classes until the 24th of August. So the custodians were there, presumably cleaning up to school, getting things ready for opening day. Additional information so far has not been provided.

More sad news here. Caitlin, the family of a man who was killed by a Chicago police officer, they're suing the cop and the city of Chicago. Give us that story. That's right. The family of Derek Jim Jordan, who was killed by a CPD officer back in March, is now suing the city and the officer for what they say was reckless and deadly use of force that was unnecessary. So what's the family alleging here? So deadly use of force. And what do they ultimately want? Yeah. So they, this is tied to Derek was shot back in March. And he was fleeing police at the time. But he was eventually cornered, essentially. It was cornered between a CTA bus, a parked car, and then a lot of squad cars. And so he did keep trying to leave. But an officer who pulled up at the scene. Within seconds was yelling that he was going to kill him. I'm going to effing kill you over and over again. Wow. And then within 20 seconds, he shot Derek six times. So the family is saying that this is certainly unjust and unnecessary use of course. So where's that officer now? We don't know. We do know that he was stripped of his police powers. He has not been criminally charged. I did reach out to the Cook County State's Attorney's Office to see if they were investigating this incident to see if they would be bringing up charges, but they said that they're waiting for the civilian office of police accountability to finish their investigation before they consider charges. But we do know he is not practicing police officer anymore, but we do not know much else about him. Let's switch gears, Mariah. The shops at North Bridge is getting a facelift. What's going on there? Yes, we've got a lot of news out of Michigan Avenue recently. The shops at North Bridge is being invested in with a $40 million investment to do exterior and interior renovations. The owners are looking to really reposition the mall and make it a place where people actually want to shop when there's been years of retailers kind of leaving that area. Yeah. How badly is renovation needed? I'm thinking about even just my last time down in that area. You know, there are places that are closed and it's making its way back slowly from the pandemic. But what's needed there? How bad is it? Yeah. Honestly, the renovation. needed more is what they're also focusing on, which is like repositioning the mall as like welcoming to experiential retailers, experiential experiences, and kind of just giving consumers more of what they want and less of those department store type of things. It's anchored by a four-story Nordstrom also as idly in there. So trying to pull a combination of entertainment things in there. Yeah. So would you say it's bouncing back from the pandemic? Well, in April Water Tower Place, it was announced that they were going to do a $170 million renovation revamp. Kind of similar to this, definitely on a larger scale. But it's a sign of Michigan Ave bouncing back after a good five years. There's been other major retailers coming back. American Eagle outfitters announced Unique Glow, the candy.

shop experience coming. There's a lot of things coming. So many things down there. People love candy. Yes. I mean, even on Michigan Avenue State Street, there's these huge candy stores, and they're a really big draw for tourists in the summer. You see people waiting to be. Shasta also loves candy. I love, I'm such. I just offered the team in our morning huddle skittles. They were like, it's seven in the morning, woman. What are you doing? But Northbridge was a very hot spot. I mean, in high school, we would ride the train down here from Oak Park just to sort of go to North. birds, get an expensive coffee drink, what have you, and cruise the shop. So good to know that there's going to be more to see and visit. What was the last time you, Caitlin and you, Mariah shopped on Michigan Avenue? The Mag Mile. I hit up the new Uniquello. Oh, I did do that too. So did I. It's lovely. I've also hit up the American Girl Doll Cafe. Yes. That too. That too. Now, Claire, a familiar name? is throwing his hat in the ring for Chicago mayor again. Yes, I'll give you a clue. This person, this will be their fourth time running for mayor. Fourth time. Fourth time running for mayor. Any guesses? No, give me another clue. This person has become famous for giving gas, free gas. There you go. Willie Wilson back. in the mayoral race announcing his candidacy last night. Yes, he is known for giving away the gas. Also at times handing out million dollars and grocery gift cards as well, trying to give back to the people. He's also kind of known just for running for mayor of Chicago. He also ran for president. Let's not forget that in 2016. Oh, that was before my Chicago time. So he is conservative. He also said publicly that he ended up voting for Trump in the 2016. 16 election. Wilson did finish in fifth place with roughly 9% of the boat. This was in 2023 when he ran for mayor. He also ran for mayor of Chicago in 2015 and 2019. All right. I hope you'll have him on your show. I think he's always a great interview. Yeah. Well, we'll see what. Very entertaining at the debates, too. We'll see what the numbers look like. And we'll get those, the top candidates in for sure. Absolutely. What other stories are you following, Claire? So this is something the Park District has been doing the last couple of years, but just sort of extending the length for certain pools to be open. So they are keeping 20 pools open through Labor Day, sometimes reporting. It's also going to extend 23 beaches. remain open through the Labor Day weekend and also 200 water play features. These are sort of like the splash pads and things you see at parks. Some of those will be open through September 30th. But it's saying mostly it chose to extend these 20 pools in the neighborhoods with higher vulnerability to the extreme heat using some recent data from the Chicago's updated heat vulnerability index. Full list because I'm not going to name all 20 pools you can find at the Park District's website. All right, from one Claire to another. Mariah, you know what I'm talking about. You wrote about the Clare's revamp. I'm talking about Clare's the store. How are they targeting the newest generation? What are they up to? Yes, Clares has had a troubled few years, a couple bankruptcy filings, but now they're looking to reposition themselves, again, as the go-to stop for like the preteens, the teenagers, ages like 6 to 14, I think is their demo.

Yeah, he wants, this is pushing a long-held belief that he's had that childhood vaccines need to be spaced out. But public health officials, vaccine experts have long said that there's a reason for these schedules. They're rigorously studied. It also protects kids. It keeps them from getting sick in between shots. And, you know, going in for several doctor's appointments is a lot for families. Sure. That would be too much. I mean, that's not the reason why doctors push this, but that's like a benefit of this is you can go in for these. Yeah, it was also just a confusing announcement. You're trying to separate these vaccines, but also overall cut down on the number of shots that kids are getting. The safety is the piece that I fall back on each and every time I hear an announcement from that administration. Other stories you both are following. You first, Mariah, anything else on your radar coming up that we should know that you can tease? I'm full in on back to school. Oh, yeah. It's that time. I'm still adding it up. That's that time. Just more nostalgia. You're on like the nostalgia. I know. And I love to shop, so it's perfect with my job. And folks, if you loved that story like I did about Mariah's 96-year-old grandma going to Claire's to get no piercing, there's more of that at SunTimes.com. Caitlin Washburn and Mariah Rush with the Sun-Times and WBEZ's Claire Lane.

This episode of the In The Loop podcast was produced by me, Linnea Dominic, and edited by Ethan Schwab. Sasha Ann Simons is our host. For more in-depth coverage of news and culture in Chicago, be sure to subscribe to this podcast. For a full archive of the show, head over to wbiz.org slash in the loop. Thanks for listening.