The Conversation: AI-generated commercial concerns; New Punahou learning commons

Aloha, this is Catherine Cruz. Welcome to the conversation. Hawaii Talks. It's Wednesday, August 12th. A political ad that was broadcast just before the primary election has raised some eyebrows. Was it AI generated? We learn more about the AI tool that's part of Honolulu's permitting overhaul. Denver, Seattle, and San Jose are hopping on the bandwagon to rethink the permitting process. And we mark International Owl Awareness Day early this month. On the Mono Minute, we get to know Hawaii's native Pueo. And hear about a Hawaii connection to today's solar eclipse in Europe on our monthly Hawaii sky segment. Plus, we check in on the first day of classes at Puneho Schools as students enjoy the new Learning Commons, name for Mary Kavanaipuku, the keeper of Hawaiian Proverbs and a former teacher at the school. Support for the conversation comes from the HPR Local Talk Show Fund, which helps Hawaii Public Radio sustain and grow its locally produced talk shows. Mahalo to contributor Shamanad University.

You're tuned to the conversation here on Hawaii Public Radio. I'm Catherine Cruz. As we come off, the primary election, we turn our attention to a campaign ad for the first Congressional House district. It was an ad run by independent candidate Nathan Burning. It's an anti-abortion ad with graphic images of aborted babies, but it also uses an image of what appears to be a young Honani K. Trask. The Hawaiian scholar and outspoken activist died in 2021. We did get a chance to talk directly with the candidate Burning, and when asked about the image of Trask, he replied, who's that? We asked if the ad was AI generated, and he said the woman in question who spoke was an actress, but he didn't know who she was. He said, my questions would be sent to his campaign manager who lived in Tennessee. We wondered about the issues raised by a possible deep fake image in a local campaign. Burning said the ad was similar to what was being run in several races across the country. We reached out to Senator Carl Rhodes, who has authored bills to regulate AI about the questions raised about its appropriateness. Well, just situations like this, assuming it was AI, I mean, it was clearly not the person that it purported to be, but this is exactly why we passed the bill in 2024, was Senate Bill 87. There was one that I authored. To make it so that deepfakes, you had to at least tell people, there had to be a disclaimer that something that clearly had not happened that had been created by AI. You had to say that these events didn't really happen. And it would have applied to this, I think, if it was, well, it would have applied if it was AI generated. There's other ways to generate this, I suppose. However, that bill was overturned as being unconstitutional, unconstitutional violation of free speech. So my sort of takeaway from the whole thing is the U.S. Constitution is not keeping up with the technology of today. The founding fathers never imagine the situation where you could make someone else say whatever you wanted them to say and have it so convincing that you couldn't tell the difference between the real thing and the fake. And our jurisprudence needs to catch up. Well, the thing that I was struck by is that, you know, Hananthras, you know, passed away a few years ago, and I just, you know, worry about her loved ones and what they think when they see something like this used in this way. Yeah, well, if it were my family, I would be appalled. We'll have to see what they say, of course, it's their family member, not mine, but... No, we did also pass a bill this last year, House Bill 2137, that prohibits certain harmful uses of realistic digital limitations generated by artificial intelligence. And there is a possibility there for, it does provide civil remedies for individuals injured by unauthorized AI-generated realistic digital limitations.

And I think that one might actually apply. I mean, you know, it's very specific and they'd have to hire an attorney to move forward with it. But the legislature is concerned about the implications of this sort of activity where, you know, the... It's not just an insult to the family, of course, although there's the ones who feel it most acutely, but it's a problem for all of us, and we can't trust our own senses to know whether something is real or not. Well, you know, I've not heard back from the case campaign because that was who this ad was directed against. But, you know, certainly it raises the question of, you know, who do you turn to, right? If your loved one, if, you know, their image was used in a deep fake, because it's just also new. And it's pretty shocking, I think, to see someone come back from the dead. Yeah, you know, it's really weird. I mean, we did pass another bill, another one of my bills, a few years ago, sexually oriented deep fakes. And that one has, that has not been struck down. So, you know, those are even worse where you have, where you, and that's the problem. The technology is such that you can make, you make it look like anybody is. doing anything. And it is very disturbing. And, you know, I think we have to, I think the other thing that it points out is that AI is here. It's not just, it's not over the horizon and you're not going to worry about it in a few years. But now the problems with it are here and we've got to start grappling with them. And, you know, I don't know how widely this was disseminated, whether it was broadcast or just available online. You know, we know candidates are relying heavily on social media. But, you know, at a time when distrust is high for, you know, so many of trusted institutions, and, you know, when you shake somebody's faith in something that you believe is true or want to trust is true, it really does turn your world topsy-turvy. Absolutely. And it just makes it so you don't know what to believe. And I think the other thing that it does is makes it so that spreading this information is much easier. So if there is something that you do that a person does want to believe and they're looking for a basis for believing that, then the unscrupulous can always provide that basis by just creating it out of whole claw. You know, we did run a segment about how there was an instance where our ali were coming to life. You know, the technology was allowing King Kalakawa and Queen Liliu Colani to...

come back to life from a black and white photo from hundreds of years ago. But it certainly is unnerving. It's a little creepy, you know, and yeah, you want to make sure that, you know, these things are being used in the right way. Just because you can do it doesn't mean you should do it. Exactly. I mean, I think there are useful applications of that kind of. I mean, there's really... As a history student, I would think will be really interesting applications to it. Like you could recreate conversations if you had the information and you could have these AI images speaking them. And it would be really interesting if you could do them accurately. But you've got to, at the very minimum, you have to have a disclaimer on saying that these are AI-created images. whatever the other caveats are in that situation. But seeing a conversation between Ali from 150 years ago, if you could do it accurately, it would be fascinating. It would be a window into a world that no longer exists. But if you're just, if you're not, if you're pretending that these are, what's happening is that these are real people talking, it just leads to all kinds of. creepy and not creepy and unfortunate consequences I guess would be the way I'd say it. Well, I don't know. And I know you are exiting stage left as you retire from the Senate, but I don't know. Do you think there needs to be more effort to pass more laws to protect the general public from the use of these deep fakes? I mean, you know, I don't know if this is like the first one that you've seen. No, no. The short answer is that there are other people who are interested in the topic. In fact, the bill that I mentioned earlier, the House Bill 2137, that was Mike Lee in the house, and then there was another one we passed last year. SB 3001, it was Jericho Coles. So there are other, and they're not the only ones, but there are a number of people in the legislature who are concerned about the topic as am I. And these bills passed easily. I mean, they weren't close votes. So there's an increasing awareness that AI is a topic that we've got to address the best we can. That was State Senator Carl Rhodes. We did reach out for comment from the case campaign and Trash's family and others close to her, but have not yet heard back. Both Hawaii News Now and KHON say they did not run any ads for burning. KITV says it did during the week of the primary, but said it did so with a disclaimer that images in the campaign commercial may be disturbing and that by law it is required to run federal political ads in their entirety.

Support for HPR comes from Hawaii Energy, unlocking energy upgrade options for small businesses. Applications for the Empower Grant now accepted at Hawaiienergy.com slash Empower. How many whole books did you read in school? And are your kids reading that many? You may think reading books, that's what you do in school. No. The book is a rare thing in American public schools. Kids are not asked to read a book. Now, Texas has a new required reading list with a lot of whole books on it. But should the state be deciding who reads what? That's on the next on point. Beginning this afternoon at 2. Support for HPR comes from the Honolulu Museum of Art. In Divine Disruption, the art of Terencherpa, the Nepalese artist explores issues such as migration and identity. Now on view, Honolulu Museum.org.

This is the conversation on statewide member-supported Hawaii Public Radio. Coming up, your backyard quiz. We have a sweet toot this morning and are lingering on the thought of pillowy, sugary malasadas. These Portuguese donuts can trace their roots back to plantation workers who came to the islands from Madeira and the Azores. There's some debate over how the name for these treats originated. The phrase malasada means undercooked in Portuguese, which could be a reference to the crispy exterior of the fried bites compared to their doughy interiors. But others say the name actually refers to the Portuguese word for molasses, which was used in early malasata recipes. The sweet treats were also traditionally fried just once a year, back in the islands off the coast of Europe. Nowadays, Lennards, Kameha, and Liliha bakeries fry up malasada's year-round. filled them with custard cream, helpia, chocolate, lily coy, and more. Is your mouth watering yet? For today's quiz, can you tell us the day of the year that malasadas were traditionally eaten in the Azores and Madeira? Asked another way, what day is known as Malasada Day? Call 808-9-3689 or toll-free 877-9-4-1-3689 if you know the answer. The first one to get it right gets a reusable tote bag from HPR.

Support for the Backyard Quiz comes from Nehreed Hawaii, which supports nonprofits, providing affordable housing for families of agricultural workers and retirees, such as the Kunia Village Development Corporation, nairitehawaii.com. The city just won an award for being an early adopter of technology used to tackle a backlog of building permits. Honolulu's Department of Planning and Permitting switched over from an outdated system called Pasi to the new H&L build. We heard from DPP director Don Takayuchi Apuna last week about one piece of the overhaul, a new AI tool called Sivchik. Starting next month, applicants for residential permits will be required to use the tool. Early numbers show the software cut review times for residential permits by 70%. The system is in use in other cities like Denver, Seattle, and San Jose. Its creators say... Submitting a permit application without knowing what to submit is like showing up to your driver's license test without having studied the roadmap of the manual. HPR's Maddie Bender talked to Cyrus Simum, CEO of Clarity Software, which owns Sivchek. Ultimately, our belief at clarity and the reason that we focused on governments is we think that governments are deserving a better technology and governments are often the last to be considered when it comes to new technology innovation. And so that's been our core focus. I think when it comes to the idea of why AI in government and why something like Sivchak with the focus here, what we find is that AI tends to do well in places where there's tons of access to data. And there's also a human in the loop that can verify that data. And the nice thing about working and permitting specifically is, you know, not that humans read it, but there are thousands of codes and bylaws and regulations that are very difficult for an individual to go through, but very straightforward for an AI to go through. And so that really creates a lot of efficiency that we find where there's so many things that if humans had access that information instantly, a lot more things could be caught. And so as you think about all the different applications, all the different regulations, all the different codes, that repository of data creates a really good use case for AI. And that's where we found to be so effective in this specific use case. We try to avoid AI for the sake of AI. And oftentimes people can just use LLMs for the sake of using them. But this was the case where the structure data, there's kind of a real decision to be made, and there's a bottleneck and a lack of information that we felt it was really well suited for AI. Talk a little bit about... Where else across the continental United States this tool is being used? It's been nice to hear you provide context of this is an issue across local governments, right? Permitting pile-ups and backlogs, and Honolulu is not unique in facing this problem. But how do we stack up to some of these other cities? In some ways, Honolulu is not a special snowflake in that regard.

As we're working with large municipalities across the U.S., permitting backlog and the downstream impacts in affordable housing is one of the biggest political issues in many of these municipalities. And so I think to your point, what we are finding is the biggest driver of that backlog is pretty consistent, which is these incomplete applications just create these three, four, five, six sets of reviews, which means that staff is working six times harder on each application. and all of that timing is creating these backlogs. And so to your point, we've been able to bring this Sivchuk solution to other large cities like Seattle, like Denver, San Jose in California, and we've been able to diagnose quite similar things. Now, I think the first surprise is some cities aren't even tracking their baseline yet. So we help them kind of track and understand how many review cycles are you taking right now without Sivchek. how long are applications getting delayed for, and how long are those turnaround times? And then in the baseline, just like we did with Honolulu, we work hand in hand with those departments to say, okay, let's see how you mark up these applications. Let's see all the different codes and bylaws that you reference. I think one of the big surprises we find is depending on the history of the city, you can have two reviewers mark up an application differently. And you can imagine the confusion that can cause. And so the other benefit of using technology is that everyone can have the identical alignment as to how to review an application. And that in itself creates a lot of consistency in the process. And so what we're also seeing, you know, your question about Honolulu is Honolulu, I think, was right in line with these other cities that we work with. An average of around four to five different reviews for every application. You would have noted for Honolulu now, we're getting down to about 1.4 reviews for application, which I would cite is... best in class for what we're really seeing across the US. And so we're starting to see the same efficiencies in Seattle specifically where they're getting down to two review cycles and then we're starting to see that as well. And so our kind of vision is that we're able to move all these cities down to one review cycle, which would save 75% of the time it takes get a permit. So the numbers you cited, the decrease in wait times, in numbers of cycles, you know, pairs of hands that a permit has to pass through before it gets approved or a final decision is made. And that was just residential permits in kind of this six-month pilot trial period because Civcheck has only been available for applicants to use since end of 2025. One thing that struck me, sample sizes. pretty low. We're talking fewer than 20 permits with Civcheck compared to without. And the sense I got from Dawn is that we're still not seeing a ton of people opting to use the tool. So can you provide any more baseline numbers on how adoption is going? Absolutely. What we are finding is that when we are putting the onus on the applicant to create a complete application, that does require a change in behavior of what an applicant is intended to do. And so I think the historical state has been...

absent me knowing what to submit for my permit application, I'm going to lob over an incomplete application and wait for the department to do to work to tell me what I need to submit. And what Subcheck is now introducing is at the initial application stage, we're going to give you all the information you need for a complete application. However, we do require you to gather that information to put together the application to have the appropriate diagrams. And so I would say that back to the driver's test example. we're now making sure that drivers go through the lessons and the training before the test. And so I think what we've done from a starting point, and this is what I think Don's leadership, is start by creating Civcheck as an optional pilot. so that we could gather data and evidence to support the ROI that we expect. And then what we're really proud of is that I think that ROI has now been proven. Where it is true that if you use Sivcheck free application, you are going to see 40 days saved on your permit application. You are going to see decision times get cut in half. I think what we've now introduced as a new stage is this idea of a fast track review, which is now if you use Sivchek, we'll also put you at the front of the queue because we can trust that you've submitted a complete application. And I think this is the part of the change management journey of getting eventually to a mandatory review required of SvShak so that all applications come with this completeness. And so while I agree with you, the sample size is only a subset of all the permits coming through. We thought that this would be the right way to actually get behavioral change. But we first needed the data to prove the outcomes to now get more residents to see the benefit of spending the extra time of their application. Sure. Nobody likes to be told you have to. do this. It's much better to get someone to use a new tool to have them choose that and not be forced. However, starting next month, residential one and two permits, as well as Ohana units, ADUs, those applicants are going to have to use Civ Check. Are you hopeful that the early data that you're seeing will prove to be the norm? We're very confident in that, and we are kind of excited about now getting to that phase in our work with Honolulu, where to your point, we feel like we have enough data and we have enough history and how it have outcomes, that we have full confidence in scaling the product to a much larger base. And the expectation of getting mandatory with those permits is... I do think we're going to see a pretty significant uptech. And I think what we're most excited about is I think more residents are going to get the permits faster. One other thing I wanted to bring up, and this came in response to criticism raised by the Hawaii chapter of the American Institute of Architects, was a concern about intellectual properties, particularly when talking about building designs and plans, which is... you know, this mix of artistry and science and math. And so

I believe the chapter was concerned, you know, about the integration of AI and potential loss or theft of intellectual property. So what can you say to address those concerns? Yeah, I think, you know, naturally, even the idea of AI always brings up questions around privacy and ownership of data and ownership of information. What I can't say about what the Subject platform does. is where we use AI does not capture any data or train any models on the IP of a lot of the folks that submit their applications. And so ultimately, where our AI is used is we are really referencing code libraries and bylaws, and we're scanning a document to match it against those code libraries and bylaws. And so we're by no means collecting information on those designs, collecting information on those drawings, and storing that information. And so the IP rests with the individuals that are submitting it. It's not captured by the system or utilized it anyway. Okay. So it's not taking those design plans and feeding them into a large language model and then one day Sivchek is going to roll out. We're just replacing architects. That's not what your platform does. That is not the case at all. And I think to your point, areas like that of design and creativity, I think are going to thrive in this new era because, nay, they now want to do all the administrative work that is very effective to be used with AI, such as the code reviews. Is there anything else you want listeners in Honolulu, the city and county specifically, whether they are permit applicants or, you know, have dealt with the... DPP for long enough that the new sheen of this new system hasn't totally replaced what ideas they have in their head about how permitting works on this island. What do you want them to know? I think you can have these common cycles where you can either demand for change or you can be afraid of change. And I think those cycles are kind of common through any big transformation. And I think what I'd give a ton of credit to DPP for is I think DPP has been willing to make the hard decision of saying, we need to change and driving that change. I think naturally these transformations, it can be months, if not years before that change is felt and the impact is received. And oftentimes, people drive that change don't even become the benefactors to the change given the cycles. But I think this is a case where... you know, constituents should feel really proud of their city for taking some significant action and investing behind technology, investing behind faster processes, and starting to see those outcomes. And so I would say that I really appreciate the work the DPB is doing. And then I also appreciate the constituents of Haldolulu for providing all that feedback and really advocating for change so that they can get the better outcomes for their permits too. Cyrus, thank you for your time today. Amazing. Thank you so much. Appreciate it. That was Cyrus Simoom, CEO of Clarity Software. He spoke with HBO's Maddie Bender about Sibchek, an AI-powered tool that Honolulu is using to streamline the permitting process. As a reminder, starting next month, Sivchek will become mandatory for residential permits.

For today's Manu Minute, we've got the call of the Pueu. Hawaii's only native owl. Collectively, it has one of the most extensive ranges in the avian world. Here's University of Hawaii at Hila Professor Patrick Hart with your Monument. A Pueo, or Hawaiian shored owl, is our only native owl and is important in Hawaiian culture as an almakua. Pueo are active mainly during the day, unlike the more common barn owl, which is mostly seen at night and has a striking white face. Pueo spend a majority of their time soaring over open grassy areas hunting for small mammals such as mice and rats. They're doing well on most of the Hawaiian islands, but it's becoming more difficult to hear the call of the Pueo on Oahu, where they're considered an endangered subspecies. For Hawaii Public Radio, I'm Patrick Hart from the biology department at UH Hilo. Support for Manu Minute comes from the Hawaii Audubon Society's Welcome Home Kolea Festival, September 19th at Alamawana Beach, open to all in the community. Learn more at hiaudabon.org.

Hawaii Skies is back this month with sights to see, exciting astronomical discoveries, and free public events for the astronomically curious. H. F. F. S. S. Kevin Allen spoke with Roy Gal. Outreach coordinator at the University of Hawaii Institute for Astronomy. So, Roy Gallo, what's going on this month in our night skies? Well, this month, and actually in the coming days, we've got the Perseid's meteor shower, which is possibly the best meteor shower of the year. The peak is likely to be on the 12th or 13th of this month. The meteors are going to look like they're coming out of the constellation Perseus, and the time when that's the best to see is after midnight and to the early, early morning hours. At the peak, you're going to see something like a meteor per minute if you're in a nice dark site away from the city lights. And you mentioned a nice dark site away from the city lights. I know that's kind of a hard thing for some people to think about if they're over here in Honolulu. Is there a specific place that you would recommend? Actually, for Honolulu, I like going over to the sandy beach side. You get the protection from the mountains there and the skies are nice and open. It may be a little windy, but you don't need a telescope or anything, just your eyes. Take out a hot chocolate and enjoy. And is there any star parties going on that's going to be hosting any viewing events? If you're on Maui, the Institute for Astronomies, Maui offices in upcountry Pukalani are going to have stargazing on August 15th, starting at 7 p.m. There's still likely to be a couple of meteors that night, even though it's not the peak. And you can come. Maybe catch some meteors, hang out with other people interested in the night sky, and we'll have telescopes set up to see deeper sky objects too. A meteor shower with friends just sounds like a fantastic way to spend a night. But there is another big celestial event that is coming up, and it does have a Huiti connection. What's that all about? Okay, well, there is a total solar eclipse happening this Wednesday, August 12th, and that totality is not visible here. It's crossing over Greenland, Iceland, northern Russia, and northern Spain. And even though it's not happening here, Hawaii's famous Solar Wind Sherpas headed by my colleague Shadia Habal are on the ground in Spain to study this eclipse. What are the Sherpas? So Shadia has been leading a team of astronomers who build specialized telescopes to study the sun during eclipses. when they can see the outer solar corona, which is what causes space weather here on Earth. And so they get two to eight minutes of totality every total solar eclipse, if the weather's clear, to do these observations. So they got to build their telescopes, take their trips, and they go all over the world to do their science in these few minutes about once a year. And our very own Maddie Bender actually just had a story about solar telescopes and some recent discoveries there. That's right. She was talking with the folks who used the Daniel K. Nui Solar Telescope right here on Haleakala to study the surface of the sun in detail. Shadia's team is looking at this very far-flung outer layers of gas, which is the material that when we have solar storms, hits Earth and creates the beautiful auroras, but can also knock out electrical grids, knock-out satellites, and things like that. So we want to understand how we can predict those and maybe keep our systems safe here.

Awesome. Well, thanks so much for joining us in the studio today, Roy, to talk to us about what's going on in our night skies. Always something fabulous. Time now to take the answer to our backward quiz out of the deep friar. Earlier we told you about the history of the Malasadas, an iconic local treat. Plantation workers from Madeira and the Azores brought the recipes in tradition of these fried donuts rolled in sugar to Hawaii. Today, the Malasada is a beloved island comfort food, sold everywhere from Lennards to Punaloo Bakery and the Punahoe Carnival. However, back in the day, they were a special treat made by nuns once a year. It sought the tradition of making malasadas originated as a way to use up sugar and lard in one's pantry before a Christian holiday known for placing limits on these indulgences. We wanted to know what day of the year was Malasada Day. The answer, Fat Tuesday, the day before Ash Wednesday and the start of Lent. And congrats to our winner, Calvin from Pololo, you got it right. That's our quiz for today. Have one you'd like to share right to talk back at HawaiiPublicradio.org.

We were able to be on campus at Puneho Schools yesterday to mark the first day of class for the 2026-27 academic year. A new facility welcomed the school community, the Mary Kavana Pukui Learning Commons, named after a beloved teacher and Hawaiian scholar. She's best known for collecting Hawaiian Proverbs, or Olelo Noelle. President Mike Latham welcomed students who arrived at the center earlier in the morning, and by midday, it was bustling with energy. Thank you. We sat down in the building with Latham yesterday to mark its opening and a new chapter in the school's long history. So it's the 185th school year at Puneho, as we were founded in 1841. And it's always an exciting moment. Kids coming back to campus, seeing their friends, seeing their teachers. There's always this enthusiasm and energy for the year ahead. And it's... It's something we all look forward to. We had a bright, beautiful warning today, and it's fun to see kids in the classrooms, spending time out on our athletic fields, and feeling at home, which is what we want. We want every student to feel at home here at Puna Ho. And they are making themselves at home in this new facility. So talk about this new building. Yeah. So what we're sitting in is a 53,000 square foot academy learning commons in the heart of our high school setting. And it's a full renovation of a library that was originally finished in 1965, and that was the Cook Library. As you might imagine, the way that we store information, the way we teach and learn, and libraries themselves have changed a lot since 1965. And so over the past 60 years, we've seen all kinds of transformations, especially in the digital revolution in the way that we think about and acquire knowledge. And so we wanted a space that would facilitate a lot of this more collaborative learning, students working in teams, applying what they learn to authentic real world challenges and problems. And we wanted a space that really would support that kind of teaching and that kind of student growth. And then I was able to just do a quick walkthrough, but you've got... quiet spaces and open areas as well. Yeah, exactly. You know, there's certainly a space for and a need for a quiet individual study. Lots of our kids are involved in athletics or they're involved in theater or music or dance. And so they lead really full lives. And so when they have a break during the day, they need to use that time. They need to use that time to study, to work on a paper, to focus on something individually. But the heart of the project is really built around creating space for students to work together on different projects in a technology-rich environment. And so, you know, throughout the building, we have individual study rooms where small groups of students can collaborate together. We have this beautiful in eye space going all the way around the building, which is in the shade. Students are equipped with power. They can work from their laptops. They can collaborate on projects.

And it's the more sort of informal kind of discussion space that is really perfect for that kind of work. And our faculty are close by as well. More and more of our teachers are beginning to hold office hours in this space as well. So students can informally find them outside of class. Get support for a project, talk about an upcoming exam, have an informal conversation about the movie they saw last weekend. And, you know, the more that we have teachers getting to know students, the more of their curiosity. the student curiosity begins to build, the more they establish those relationships with people who really are supporting their education, the more learning happens. And so we wanted to promote that. And this building is named for a teacher. It is, which is really exciting. So Marika Venipakoui was a teacher at Punahou in the late 1930s until 1941, until World War II began. And, you know, she's a fascinating figure, a person who was born in 1895 in the Ka'u district of the Big Island, the southern part of the Big Island, and reflects the kind of shared cultural origins that Punahoe itself does. Her mother was Pahana Kanaka-Ole from a long line of Kahuna and medicinal experts. And her father was Henry Nathaniel Wigan from Salem, Massachusetts, who worked for a sugar plantation. And on her father's side, she's actually a descendant of the famous Puritan poet Anne Bradstreet. And so from the time that she was a child, she was really immersed in both cultures and both languages. And she was raised by her maternal grandmother and grandparents. And eventually, I think, became just very curious, really committed to capturing, commemorating, and recovering as much Hawaiian knowledge. language, culture, chant, song, and dance as she could. The family moved to Oahu when she was quite young as a teenager. And by that time, she was walking around carrying a notebook in her hands in which she would write down Hawaiian Proverbs, songs, chants, and commit them to memory. And already, even as a child, was beginning to preserve this culture that surrounded her. So, I mean, a remarkable person, really kind of a shining example of the kind of creativity and curiosity we want to promote in our own students. And then, of course, she taught at Kunho in the 1930s, went on to teach at Kamehamehamehamehs schools, and had a very long and distinguished career at the Bishop Museum, where she was a collaborator with historians, anthropologists, linguists, choreographers, a wide array of people who are all interested in learning more about Hawaiian culture. But really, I think she became the preeminent scholar of Hawaiian culture of the 20th century. And for us to be able to recognize a person of that caliber, a scholar of that stature, who also taught at Punahal, is really special, something that we're really excited about. We've had a number of commemorative events for the project.

And it's been especially exciting to see Mary Kavanaipakoui's descendants, her family, join us for these events. In fact, we had a wonderful celebration here this past Saturday morning where a large cohort of her family came and they all performed. They all danced together. Kids as young as five years old, up to Tutu. And, you know, it was just really, really meaningful and quite beautiful. And so we're really humbled and honored that we're... able to be a part of that process in that recovery of her work. Well, you know, many people know her as the keeper of the proverbs, right? Al-Lano'iao. And I think of Onipa, you know, steadfastness just because of what it stands for and the whole Oni-paa celebrations that I've covered over the years. But I don't know, do you have a favorite proverb? You know, I think my favorite one has to do with this idea that all knowledge is not taught in the same school. And I actually invoked it at our commencement ceremony because we have to recognize that many people learn in lots of different ways and that lived experience can be a great teacher. And all of us, I think, have to be open to the possibility that our lived experience. will allow us to continue to grow and to mature. And that's an essential part of what we're aiming for at Punahal. It's not a proverb itself, but late in her life, Mary Kavana Pekui talked about the power of being able to speak both her fathers and her mother's languages and what that opened up for her. Because she could speak her mother's language, she conversed with other Polynesians, talked about their similarities and their differences. Because she could speak her father's language, English, she was able to engage with this broader scholarly community and to reflect on what had been preserved, what had been lost, and what remained. And then she closed that statement with this really powerful sentence. She said, knowledge to me is life. And that saying is one that just really stands out that I find really inspiring. You know, in addition to all of her accomplishments and achievements, I think what we see is a person with a very profound sense of purpose. That from the time she was very young, she was deeply committed to preserving and sharing Hawaiian culture as broadly as she could. At another point, she reflected and she said that, you know, what would Hawaii be without Hawaiian culture? What would make us distinctive? What would happen if we didn't do everything we could to preserve it? And that too was a very inspiring statement. You know, so we sometimes we think about the very gentle Mary Kavana Pekui who gathers children together and teaches third graders, as she did here at Puneho. But when I think about this other side of her, this deep commitment to preservation, there's some steel in that statement. You know, there's some very firm commitment. This is a person who... really had a very clear idea of what she wanted to accomplish and why. And I think that shaped her life. It shaped her career. It really shapes the kind of example we want our students to have. We want them to be thinking, what can I do with these talents and capacities I have? What broader cause could I be a part of? We've been hearing from Mike Latham, President of Puneho Schools on the first day of classes in the new Mary Kavanaikoui Learning Commons. We'll have more from our chat after a break.

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Let's get back to our conversation with Mike Latham, president of Puneho School. We sat down with him yesterday afternoon. It was the first day back in classes for the students and a chance to ask how the private school was tackling the challenges of staying ahead of the AI advances and other technology. We were sitting in the newest building on campus, named for a Puneho School teacher and Hawaiian scholar Mary Kavanaipuku. In a nod to the past, it features images. pulled from the school archives and white space architects included a design of the original footprint of the first structure. And this structure, I mean, I know you have the footprint of, I think, the first building here. But because we are at a turning point really with knowledge and artificial intelligence, I don't know. How are you looking at where the school goes when we, it's a razor's edge, you know? Absolutely. You know, that's such a fascinating question. And I think there are several ways to answer it. You know, I think we have to be. really thoughtful about things like artificial intelligence. You know, I think those technologies hold incredible promise, especially for personalized learning. So I can give you a quick example. You can imagine a teacher of Mandarin Chinese and lots of our kids at Punahote, Chinese. She would love to have a conversation with every one of her students every day for 15 or 20 minutes. But that's just not possible. There's just not enough time, not enough hours in the day to do that. But her students can interact through an AI-driven platform with an avatar who looks really lifelike, who is fluent in Mandarin Chinese. The conversation produces a transcript, which then tracks all of the vocabulary words that students are using, all of the sentence structures, places where they may misuse a verb tense, And the teacher can read all of that and then identify the progress the students are making. She could then look at the transcripts of her entire class and identify whether or not there's a systemic area. Oh, gee, my students need more work in this area. My students have an opportunity to grow here. This is enormously powerful. This kind of personalized learning is really a tremendous asset. And we have parallel examples in math and science education, which is really exciting. At the same time, there are some things that we never want AI to substitute for. And the best example I can think of is writing. You know, as I'm sure Catherine in your work, you know, we have all kinds of ideas. But we don't really know if they're any good until we often write them down. You know, we have to see them on the page. We have to go through that process. We have to work to communicate them to somebody else. If we were to simply say that, you know, AI can write so we don't need to teach writing anymore, that would be a terrible mistake. Yes, it would be. It'd be a terrible mistake because writing, I think, is inseparable from critical thinking.

It's really a foundational skill which allows you to think critically to reflect, to do the kind of cognitive labor that's essential for growth. And so we never want to substitute for that. We always want to have lots of face-to-face discussion. We want to have close reading. We want to have strong writing. So we have to be really thoughtful about the way in which you use these tools. There's lots of important ethical questions as well. which we always have to be cognizant of. And I think we have to be really wide-eyed and very thoughtful about the fact that the... Tools themselves are being created in a market which is almost entirely unregulated. And many of their creators are not out to save the world. They're out to make a very large sum of money. So we have to really be very thoughtful and careful about this, balancing the tremendous opportunity with the need to remain faithful to what it is that allows us to deliver the best education. Yes, and our young minds need gargrapers. Absolutely. You know, I worry a bit about, for example, the student who... maybe is a little shy and introverted and starts to become a lot more comfortable talking to an AI partner than doing the real work of building human friendships. That to me is very chilling. Or people turning to AI sources for psychological and therapeutic advice when they really need to sit face to face with an expert. So these are some of the things that we have to be really very careful and really thoughtful about. Talking about devices, I know the public schools just rolled out a new cell phone policy for their lower middle and high school. And I know the private schools have had discussions about this. So what's the policy here? Yeah, so kindergarten through eighth grade, cell phones are not permitted at all. And so if you were to bring one to campus, let's say in middle school, you would have to put it in your backpack or your locker and leave it there for the entire school day. from the moment you set foot on campus until when you leave. In the high school, we do not allow them in any academic space. So no classroom, no laboratory, not in this library in which we're sitting, this learning commons. We do allow students to use them outside on breaks. But even then, we're seeing more and more students and faculty actually beginning to really regulate that use on their own terms. And that's a subject that we'll continue to be talking about as well. You know, one of the challenges, too, I think, is really the parent education side of this. We have to be realistic and recognize that parents are purchasing the devices. They're buying the data plans. And so we want to be strong partners with parents in helping them understand the need to be safe and the need to establish clear frameworks. At Punahoe, we don't believe any student should be using social media before the age of 15 years old. We think that's really just a mistake. And so we're continuing to really pay attention to a lot of the data which shows adverse impacts on psychological health, on academic performance, on sleep, on other things that are crucial to children's growth.

Yeah, so we can sit here and say, what would Mary do? Yes. Yeah, I think Mary would tell our kids to put their phones away, and you better learn the lyrics of this song. You know, it was fascinating. We had an event here about a week ago, and this elderly woman came up, and she grabbed my arm, and she said, you need to know that Mary Kavanape Kui's daughter, Auntie Pat, was my Kumuhula. And before we could dance, She made us learn the lyrics of every song, and we actually took written tests about the meaning of every word in the song. So I was fascinated by that, just the intentionality that dancing is not just an art of movement or sort of movement to music, but it has to reflect the deeper understanding and knowledge of the dancer itself. And I thought, wow, what a beautiful way. to think about the deeper meaning of art. And it made me imagine, too, this tremendous impact that somebody like Mary Kavana Pekui has, a master teacher who teaches a generation of students, who then go on to teach their students, and that long legacy, you know, which we're so fortunate now to, in a humble way, to be a part of. Well, thank you for inviting me to spend some time here in this building where no cell phones are about, right? Yeah, it's exciting. And, you know, I think, you know, getting back to your question in the era of artificial intelligence, I think things like performing arts, live theater, music, dance, the things that make us genuinely human become more important than ever before. And that's sort of, I think, a North Star for us, too. Well, Mike Lytton, thank you so much. Thank you, Catherine. My pleasure. Thank you. We've been hearing from Mike Latham, President of Puneho School.

We do have to go now, but up tomorrow, we plan to get to know the new head of an organization with the mission to prevent child sex trafficking. How a passion for women's advocacy inspired her to pivot from the world of high fashion. Got some feedback for us. Call or talkback line 808-792-827 or email talkback at hawaiipublicradio.org. Listen to our archive shows online by searching for the conversation or as a podcast on Spotify or Apple. I'm Catherine Cruz. Join us tomorrow for more of the conversation.