"In light of a credible threat, journalists and staffers were left in harm's way"

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Hi again, everybody. It's now 5 o'clock in the East. Donald Trump has always enjoyed attacking the press. He's always had a confrontational relationship with reporters. He's called members of the White House Press Corps fake news and the enemy of the people so many times we could spend the whole hour playing you a tape. We won't, but... You get the gist. American presidents have been known to have tense relationships with people who cover them. But Donald Trump's attacks on the media and the press in the First Amendment are a much more aggressive and whole of government affront to a right enumerated in the First Amendment. Now new extraordinary reporting, the Washington Post elevates Trump's contempt and disregard for the press that covers him to an entirely new level. The Washington Post reveals how When faced with an assassination threat from Iran, Donald Trump secretly flew back from the NATO summit last month in Turkey via an alternate aircraft, despite saying he was flying home in an alternate Air Force One, leaving the press corps and even some White House staff in the dark about where he actually was and leaving them in what appears to be very legitimate, credible danger. Washington Post reports this. In Ankara, Trump boarded the old Air Force One jumbo jet in view of television cameras. He was secretly shuttled minutes later to a smaller plane, an Air Force C-32A via an airport catering truck typically used to load meals and other supplies pre-flight, according to the U.S. official and corroborating material reviewed by the Washington Post. That made Air Force One a decoy. With media and some White House staff aboard, the official said. That's one thing to mock reporters, to call them names, to kick them out of the press pool. It's another thing entirely to put their lives in credible danger without telling them about it. Washington Post offers this perspective, quote, for decades, it has been rare for U.S. presidents to travel without members of the White House Press Corps accompanying them in their roles as proxies for the American public. Journalists have traveled into war zones with numerous presidents, including Trump, Joe Biden, Barack Obama, and George W. Bush. That's where we begin the hour with the reporter who broke this story wide open in the Washington Post. John Hudson is with us. Also joining us, staff writer at the Atlantic, Tom Nichols, and the former director of the CIA and senior national security and intelligence analysts, John Brennan's here. John Hudson, take us through the TikTok of what you reported and when you reported it and what the reaction has been. Yeah, well, this has been a pretty exceptional event, maybe the most extraordinary bait and switch in U.S. Secret Service history. You know, most important thing to remember here, you've laid it out quite well, is this wasn't just simply the president moving from one plane to another. This was a major deception campaign aimed at a foreign power in response to

evidence that the U.S. received of a threat to the president's life. But in trying to deceive the Iranians, they deceived the American press corps, they deceived White House staffers, and any number of people who were on Air Force One, who believed that they were traveling with the president, when in fact they were not traveling with the president. He was secretly smuggled into another plane via a Turkish catering truck. It was a very surprising move, a very unusual tactic. But they took off. And then they landed in Mildenhall. And afterwards, President Trump talked to reporters and suggested that everybody was on the same flight, saying, if I go down, you go down. And this is just the threat that we're all living under a wartime posture against Iran. Yeah, that theatrical, I think the quote is, if I go, you go. What do you think about the attempt to lie to the journalist faces who were just used as decoys? Is that, I mean, I'm not on the plane. I obviously am not covering the White House. I've been on the other side of that relationship a very long time ago, but that feels like a new low even for this strained relationship. Yeah, I mean, after we published this, I've talked to people that I've known, including a friend who was on the Air Force One that day, and she thought that she was traveling with the president. And there was just a level of shock and surprise. There's a number of White House reporters who felt that way. Just stunned a feeling of... being deceived by the White House. Obviously, you know, the White House and the press have it. It's important that they have a trusting relationship because the press, they are the proxies for the American people. We're here to inform people about the president's whereabouts, what he's doing on behalf of the country. And if you can't have that basic information, God forbid what happens in the moment of a crisis when the public needs to know if the president is actually under attack, they need to know that the press is giving accurate information about what their leader is doing. Do you think there'll be any boycott of traveling with the president? It's an interesting question. It's my understanding, and there are reports that the White House Corresponds Association is deliberating and is trying to figure out a way forward and seeking meetings with the White House. I don't have any indication into what direction that's going to go. But it is going to be interesting if this shakes the confidence that reporters have in their relation with the White House. I haven't seen any public statements from the White House. if they're going to work with the press differently, but it's a very, very valid question. Just take me through the TikTok. So he gives this NATO press conference. I think I was on the air and he says, I'm going to send the Qatari gifted airport, because it involves three airplanes now, which is what your reporting reveals for the first time. He says to this NATO press conference, and I think nobody believes them, right? He says, I'm going to send the Qatari jet to visit the troops. Just the plane is going.

And I think actually Tom Nichols was with me that day and we all said, okay. Very quickly, your news all in and others report that it was a security threat. Very quickly after that, there's subpoenas for some Times journalists. And it's weeks until you broke the story last night. Just take me through the reporting arc for all those events that are public facing. That's right. So, you know, the president was seen visibly boarding the old Air Force one. And everyone presumed when that plane took off, the president was on it. Of course, he wasn't. He was on a smaller C-32 aircraft. The type of aircraft, the Secretary of State, the vice president flies on, both of those planes landed. And then... Subsequently, there was reporting in the New York Times that the reason that the president didn't use this luxury Boeing jet was because it didn't have the type of anti-aircraft defensive mechanisms that would be necessary in a heightened threat environment. After that happened, the Trump administration subpoenaed every Times reporter that was on the byline of that story, really setting a chilling effect on all. reporting related to this. Certainly the Washington Post was mindful of the tactics that the Trump administration has taken to have a chilling impact on reporting, but it was the Post's belief that this information believed deserved to be in the public space, and it was the public's right to know about these extraordinary tactics to conceal the president's movements. Do you expect to be subpoenaed? You know, it's something that we think about a lot. I certainly hope that that is not the case because it does have a chilling impact on reporting and just the way that reporters like myself, like Dan Lamoth, other reporters on the byline, that we operate, which is living in a country where journalists are allowed to seek information about the government without the fear of being in legal jeopardy. And to be clear to view. viewers and listeners, this would be an effort to try to get at our confidential sources and force us to give that up. We do have a sacred oath to protect those sources, and so that's something that we would fight rigorously. Do you have confidence that the Washington Post up to its owners would defend you? I have great confidence in our leadership and they have been very strong throughout this process and really encouraged us to get to the truth and then ultimately publish the truth. Let me ask you one more question about what might seem like a small detail that it stuck out at me like a glaring red flashing light.

And the pool report that comes out, reporters were asked to keep their shades down. Do you know why? Yeah, I mean, that would have been a potential tactic to prevent the reporters from seeing. what was going on, the use of that Turkish catering truck. And that really set off some concerns about reporters about something going on that they weren't aware of. And that's why they asked the president about what was going on. But the president indicated that the only reason for that would have been a danger, not the sleight of the hand that was in process. Director Brennan, let me bring you in on that point. I'm aware of people being asked to close their shades when landing in the corkscrew to land in Iraq, but not parked on a tarmac in Turkey. Your thoughts on everything that John's reported. Yes, well, it certainly seems that the reason for asking them to close the shades was not to protect maybe the plane from sunlight, but also to prevent the reportism seeing something. But it's clear that, you know, there are many in the Iranian leadership that would like nothing better than to kill Donald Trump in retaliation for the death of so many Iranian leaders. Secondly, it's quite apparent that the Secret Service deem this threat very credible. We still don't know a lot about that threat, whether it was a long-range missile from Iran or something from the ground of Turkey or even a bomb placed aboard the plane. But it is rather curious as to why they weren't able to mitigate that threat sufficiently that would allow the plane to take off. But clearly, that report sufficiently frightened Trump. that he agreed to be secreted off the plane in this catering cart that was attached then to the plane. And so, you know, clearly it looks as though he was hiding and trying to get away. But I think the real question is why was he only focused on himself and did not insist that the threat be mitigated to the point where the other White House staff and journalists would not be in harm's way? No president I ever worked for would have allowed this to happen. I mean, they could have brought him out on the C-32 separately and said that the Air Force one was delayed and, you know, waited until he was, you know, back in the States or in Europe or somewhere out of harm's way where they could have announced that he, in fact, left on his own. But again, this is, you know, extraordinary reporting. But I do hope that the thread is going to be pulled by John and others to find out more about exactly what happened. Whose idea was it? to have him leave through this catering cart. And again, how the decision was made that the threat could not be mitigated sufficiently with the two Air Force ones that they have on the ground there. John, do you know how he received the information that he was going to need to climb into a catering truck and hide?

We don't have a window into that. We're obviously very curious about that. We're definitely pressing for more details about that, whether this was the Secret Service that urged the president to do this or the sort of idea came from somebody else. We don't have any more clarity on that. Tom Nichols, the Iranian... propaganda and information around Pete Hegseth. There's a Lego series that they do around Pete Hegseth, incredible social media content. And the memes just generated in this country since this story broke last night are extraordinary. If Donald Trump had any hope of being perceived around the world as strong, it's over forever. There are pictures of him all over the internet. in like a little snack cart on the airplane. That is obviously not what the reporting says. He hid in was a larger sort of the thing that the smaller carts could be carried into. But that is the image of Donald Trump around the world. It's on the heels of knowledge that is more sharply communicated around the world than even in our own country where Trump's base sort of clouds a lot of it, that America has lost the war and certainly never had the upper hand with Iran. Your thoughts on how this reporting fits into or amplifies all of that. Yeah, well, the first thing I think we all agree on and should say, the safety, the commander-in-chief is the most important thing, period. And, you know, however they, the Secret Service and his security detail, you know, we're going to keep him safe. I'm not going to second guess that. I don't think any of us want to do that. The problem comes that the president and the people around him still think of the American media as the enemy, as people who have to be lied to and kept from the truth. And that means that when the story does come out, it comes out this way. having the media with him as other presidents might have done. And, you know, given the greatest story to some reporters who would then talk about the clever, brave, funny thing that the Americans did to thwart this Iranian assassination plot, you know, instead they went this way and let it, you know, they couldn't control the story. So now, as you say, You know, to think that we're losing a meme war to a Muslim theocracy in the Middle East is kind of amazing. But now it looks like what it looks like that Donald Trump was scared. He did this kind of, you know, Keystone cops jump in, jump out kind of thing. Nobody wanted to tell anybody anything. And it does reinforce, I think it reinforces the idea that we've lost. that we're not that the president is not even safe in the territory of a NATO ally and that, you know, Air Force One isn't safe enough for the president so that he had to sneak back home. One of the thing I should say is, you know, part of what complicates this story is this stupid Qatari

gift should never have been accepted. This complicates everything. President should never set foot on that airplane. You don't take a 747 gifted by a foreign government, no matter how cordial, and then play this game of, you know, which plane is safer. There is an Air Force One. It's outfitted to do this. And as Director Brennan was just saying, they may have had other ways to play this game to say, well, we have... We have a delay. There's a mechanical failure. Something's wrong. And then get the president out of there. And instead, they did it the most damaging way possible so that when the story comes out, you know, everybody looks kind of silly. The president looks scared. And the Iranians look like they're, you know, running a big part of the show in this region of the world, unfortunately. All right, no one's going anywhere. I'll show you the moment where Trump participates in the charade and comes back and tells the press that has just been used as a decoy, quote, if I go, you go. Also ahead in this hour, another case of the Trump administration. declassifying documents to try to prove a point, but only unwittingly proving a different point altogether and one that is not good for them. The latest example goes back to Trump's first term. It sheds new light on the FBI's remarkable decision to open a counterintelligence investigation into a sitting president. We learned for the first time what happened next. The reporter who broke that story will join us. Plus, doctors are pushing back aggressively today against Donald Trump's extraordinary revamping of the childhood vaccine. schedule, something doctors say will hurt public health and make us all less safe. We'll get to that reporting later in the hour as well. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

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Well, yeah, because you're probably on a danger of sweating because of the sleeves bags that we have to deal. So if Iran was possibly, I'm talking about it. Well, if they asked you in close, if they didn't have closed it, if they didn't have done it. These are sick people. So I could see something like that. I didn't know they did that, but I could see something like that. I want to ask you, Director Brennan, about the intricacy of the story he's telling. I mean, if they asked you to close your windows, probably they feel that they didn't ask me to close mine. He wasn't on the plane. He was the person that they were asked to close the windows, so they wouldn't see him in the catering truck. Trump goes on, if they did ask me to close my window, I would have done it. These are sick people, so I could see something like that. I didn't know they did that, but I could see something like that. Were you aware of any credible threat by Iran? I hear the threat all the time. I'm number one on their list before you, but if I go, you go. Perhaps someday you want to change professions. The press aren't the only people on Air Force One. The White House staff, a lot of White House staff was left on Air Force One. And then the crew, the people that take care of you when you have the privilege of riding on Air Force One. queer military, and they cook and they make a president and his staff and the press as comfortable as possible. And in old times, you could imagine someone being responsible for finding out if they knew, or if this was all done in secret and really as a decoy with press, staff, and military in the dark. Yeah, Trump certainly could have handled that press gaggle much more deftly. But the man loves to lie. I mean, even when he doesn't have to, he could have answered the questions in ways that we're not going to be just flat out lies. But that's what his inclination is. But again, leaving all those people on the plane, when again, there was still what was deemed at the time a very credible threat. as if those people, those journalists and White House staff and crew and others were expendable, that's what's just so unconscionable. You know, in the past, the Secret Service certainly has used decoy vehicles, for example, armored vehicles as a way to, you know, get the president from point A to point B without, you know, going down a sort of a pre-designated route. But that's Secret Service agents that are driving it. You know, they're the ones that are, you know, whose lives are on the line to protect the life of a president. But here, you know, you're talking about, you know, scores of people that would have went down on the plane. And again, not understanding exactly the nature of the threat. And as Tom was saying, you know, Air Force One in particular was supposed to be able to handle these types of threats. Why it wasn't able to do that in a NATO country is just mind-boggling. I don't know what it was. But it's clear, you know, Donald Trump again decided to protect himself.

And basically to say to hell with the others, you know, get me out of here. And again, the image it sends, you know, to folks, not just about the President of the United States, but about the United States. But the Iranians really are calling the shots now and can get the President of the United States to cower in a catering truck in order to get out of a fellow needle country. It's just, you know, unfortunately, it's just such sends a bad signal to people around the globe, including in this country. Yeah, I mean, Tom, I agree with your point about the security of the president reigning supreme. Yes, yes, yes, yes, and another yes. And it has also always included in those situations. I was a White House Communications Director after 9-11, and there wasn't a time when the press was sent up in the air as a decoy. And the idea that that happened and... Not that business is sort of humming along, but I wonder what else you think it reveals. But it's not really clear that anything will change in this relationship between Donald Trump and the press that travels with him. No, it reveals a lot of paranoia, for one thing. And an inability to trust, you know, other Americans, other, loyal. and intelligent Americans with this kind of information. You know, earlier today, John Kirby was on your network saying he's confided in reporters about those kinds of security issues all the time when he was in uniform and out of uniform. And it never bit him and never burned him. This whole thing, you know, as Director Brennan was talking about what it says about America, this whole thing struck me as like, the kind of thing Vladimir Putin would do. You know, like, yeah, send up a bunch of reporter. Go on the flight path and send up the plane and let's see if anybody takes it out. I won't be there, of course. And it raises another question. What if something had happened to Air Force One? And what? The president is going to come out and say, yeah, I knew they were in danger. That's why I didn't get on the plane. You know, it sucks to be them. It's really just an incredible. kind of callousness. And it also, I am not a professional security person. I don't work for the Secret Service. But I have to think there had to be some way of dealing with this threat that didn't involve this whole, you know, cartoonish business of sneaking the president around in a food cart or a food container while leaving a bunch of staff and reporters on a jet that apparently was still under threat. I mean, again, you know, there was no. effort to do anything else, talk about mechanical problems or, you know, spirit the president out under the guise of some kind of, you know, other issue. And then once he's in Britain, say, oh, I'm here, you know. Instead, it was this really kind of paranoid little escapade that said, get the president out. And, you know, the hell with everybody else, we're not going to tell them anything. So that, as I said in the last segment, when the story finally did break, it looks as bad as it could possibly look to the rest of the world, not only about Donald Trump's kind of cowardly running around, but also just the way that the American government thinks about its fellow citizens by leaving them on a plane that they knew was a decoy.

John Hudson, congratulations on the scoop. We'll continue to voraciously consume your reporting on this story. Tom Nichols, thank you for joining us today. Director Brennan stays with me when we come back. There's brand new reporting in the New York Times today that sheds a light on why a counterintelligence investigation into Donald Trump's ties with Russia was essentially derailed before it ever got started. We'll have that story for you next. Hi, it's Sierra Miller. I can't wait for you to check out my new collection of shoes and accessories at Designer Shoe Warehouse. If you love shoes as much as I do, then trust me, I got you. From cute sneak arenas to the perfect flip-flops to stunning heels. These shoes are all style, no drama. It's a girls' girl's summer, and DSW has just the shoes. Shop the Sierra Miller collection right now at your DSW store or DSW.com. The Beauty Rest Labor Day sales event is here because after getting the most out of an exquisite summer, you deserve your beauty rest. Save up to $1,000 off select Beauty Rest black mattresses and adjustable base sets featuring pocketed coil technology for our most advanced motion separation. Limited time offer. Visit beautyrest.com to find a retailer near you. People at their best get their beauty rest. Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co-founder of Angie. And one thing I've learned is that you buy a house, but you make it a home. Because with every fix, update, and renovation, it becomes a little more your own. So you need all your jobs done well. For nearly 30 years, Angie has helped millions of homeowners hire skilled pros for the projects that matter. From plumbing to electrical, roof repair to deck upgrades. So leave it to the pros who will get your jobs done well. Angie, the one you trust to find the ones you trust. Find a pro for your project at Angie. All I can acknowledge is what the intelligence shows, right? I only know. The intelligence committee has zero evidence that someone has flipped, that a foreign power flipped a vote in 2020, 22, or 24. And so the 2020 election was in fact the results as we, the American public. I'm still researching. So let me, let me, this is the first. But there's no intelligence. You got to go. There is no intelligence at the election would have said that Donald Trump was present. The president said that tonight.

It is the narrative version of the Titanic hitting the iceberg. It's Donald Trump's own election conspiracy guy, John Solomon, who can't even pretend that his investigation into the 2020 election turned up the claims of election fraud that Donald Trump said they did, that he was desperately seeking. That was the night of his national address. It is part of a pattern now. an embarrassing pattern of incompetence from the Trump administration to find something that they try to market as a gotcha, a bombshell, declassified memo, that either wittingly or unwittingly proves something else, usually the opposite. The latest example of that pattern goes back to the very beginning of Trump's first year in office the first time and his push still now, 10 years later, to rewrite the history of the Russia investigation into his campaign. The New York Times reports this. Quote, in recent weeks, the White House has released a trove of previously classified FBI memos that it says back up Trump's claims that a so-called deep state was out to get him, in which there is, quote, little new of substance in the documents and nothing that fundamentally undercuts the FBI's rationale for pursuing the Russian investigation. But the Times reveals that the material does do something else. It sheds new light and how an entire half of the FBI's original investigation, the part that was supposed to go back and look into Trump's ties to Russia, was effectively killed from the start by then Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein. From that reporting, quote, Rosenstein did not ask Special Counsel Robert Mueller to conduct the counterintelligence investigation into Donald Trump. and made clear to Mueller that he did not want him conducting an open-ended years-long investigation. Quote, although Rosenstein did not authorize Mueller to conduct the counterintelligence investigation, responsibility for overseeing it was transferred to the FBI agents working on Mueller's team, according to the memos released by the White House. But since the special counsel's mandate was to focus on crimes, the counterintelligence focus fell by the wayside and was... limited to activities within the scope of the special counsel's jurisdiction, according to one of the memos. I want to bring in the reporter behind that story, New York Times investigative journalist Mike Schmidt. Director Brandon is still with us. Mike, just first, what did the Trump White House think the memos were going to show and then explain how this falls through the cracks, how they end up releasing something that really points at one of the things Donald Trump has been running from for a decade? It seems like they wanted the memos to back up the notion that the deep state was out to get Donald Trump and to further the idea that the Russia, you know, what happened around Russia was a hoax and it was a conspiracy against Trump. And it's one that they believe so much in that there's a criminal investigation going on in Florida into it. This can easily get very confusing. So let me try and make it as basic as possible. In May of 2017, the FBI after the James Comey firing was so concerned that Donald Trump was potentially acting at the behest of Russia.

that they took this extraordinary decision, a decision that I still find hard to get my head around. They opened an investigation into whether Trump was a counterintelligence threat, whether he was being used by the Russians. That in of itself is an extraordinary thing. For a range of things that happened behind the scenes, That investigation is never done in the way that the FBI thought it should be done when they opened it in May of 2017. And if you went back to 2017 or 2018 and you told the average American that Robert Mueller's investigation is not really looking at Trump's personal history in ties to Russia, it's exclusively focused on whether crimes were committed. I think people would be surprised that the Mueller investigation never took a true deep dive at Trump's own ties to Russia outside of the 2016 campaign. Do you think Trump is under the notion that this investigation to him is happening and that that's why he's such a lunatic about it 10 years later? I don't know. I mean, look, you have to remember, after Mueller is appointed in May or June or July of 17, I interviewed Trump in the Oval Office, and I or Maggie Haberman asked him whether Mueller would be crossing a red line if he looked at his finances. And he said, yes, he would be. And what the FBI wanted to do, one person once described to me at some point in the past decade was a Manhattan project style investigation into Trump's finances to understand where Trump had gotten his money from. Now, there are people on both ends of the political spectrum who will have varying different views of that. Some people, some strong article to people that would think that the executive branch can't do an investigation like that because the president sets what the national security threats are. So how can you investigate whether the president is a national security threat? So like the idea of the counterintelligence investigation is an extraordinary one and one that can be easily debated. But. At the end of the day, Trump did make clear that he didn't want his finances looked at. And that Manhattan Project-style financial investigation into Trump's ties to Russia, based on everything we know today a decade later, never happened. Director Brennan, you're gone, right, before this decision is made. This happens after Trump fires James Comey. But Trump is still intent on investigating you. That's what the Southern District of Florida is looking at for simply assessing that either wittingly or unwittingly, there were shared priorities, if you will.

looking at Hillary Clinton's emails and otherwise. What do you make of the fact that last week they dumped memos that show something very different than what they seem to think they show? Why this obsession? in your view? Well, I think once something gets into Donald Trump's head, he can't get rid of it, particularly when he is so insecure and is so sensitive about any type of perceived, you know, chink in his armor that the Russians have helped him get elected back in 2016. So it's unsurprising that it continues to pull at this, and also it's part of his way to retaliate against individuals that he thinks wronged him. But I must say, John Solomon, you know, he has raised buffoonery to a never-before-seen level in terms of what it is that he says and pushes out as far as these conspiracy theories are concerned. But like Mike, I do believe that there are a number of threads on the financial front and the counterintelligence front that were being pulled in the early part of 2017, but then stopped. And so I still don't think that we understand fully all of the potential connections. that people around Donald Trump or Donald Trump had to Russians. And as you pointed out, the Russians are a very sophisticated intelligence service, and they suborn and recruit people wittingly and unwittingly. And that was the concern I think the FBI had. was Donald Trump and the people around him, given that there were so many oddities in terms of the campaign, as well as then shortly after the election, the contacts that were taking place between Russians and those close to Donald Trump? I think the FBI had an obligation. They had a responsibility to make sure that they understood exactly what the Russians might be doing, even if it was unbeknownst to the individuals involved. Yeah, it seems like Trump's the only person who would take on winning is like some insult, personal insult. Amazing, amazing reporting. Mike Schmidt, John Brennan, thank you so much for joining us to talk about it. When we come back, Donald Trump's attempt to upend the vaccines we give to keep our kids safe and healthy. Doctors today are pushing back aggressively against Donald Trump's executive action and the lack of science behind it. That reporting is next.

If you want to protect your kids from those preventable diseases, vaccinate your kids, I've been very, very clear about that. I mean, you can ask president about the executive order, but I'll tell you what the focus of the president has been. You don't know about the executive order? I mean, I don't know exactly the executive order neither to use. So it's not, yeah. Well, it's interesting that you don't. Interesting is one word for it. It's scary as you know what, that the NIH director who. Says he trusts the science behind life-saving vaccines for children wouldn't know about an executive order to be expected from Donald Trump announcing his dangerous new vaccine policy, which he announced exactly 24 hours after he gave that interview. Yesterday at the White House, Donald Trump took the unprecedented step of signing an executive order dramatically reducing the number of universally recommended and scientifically backed childhood vaccines from 17 down to 11. Now recommending several vaccines for high-risk children only. As the New York Times reports, quote, on that list are vaccines that protect against several diseases that can be fatal for anyone. including hepatitis A, hepatitis B, and Meningoccal disease. I want to bring in Dr. Michael Anderson. He's a critical care physician and senior advisor at the Children's National Hospital in Washington, D.C. Let me just first ask you if doctors or pediatricians have changed their recommendations or if any of the science has changed for doctors or pediatricians behind the vaccine schedule that existed before Donald Trump's executive order. Great to be with you, Nicole. And no, nothing has changed. There's no new study. There's no recommendation that's come out from what's called ACIP. There's no expert panel that has come out and said that this is where the science is taking us. This is a really unfortunate time. And as you alluded to, the past 24 hours has really been incredible. So many groups of physicians, so many medical societies, the American Academy of Pediatric Stepping up and saying, This is not where the science is taking us. It's also at a really bad time. We have surpassed last year's measles numbers, and we're only into August. Fall is coming, but who knows what the flu season is going to be. So any distrust in vaccines with an executive order like this is really, quite frankly, dangerous. Explain to, I mean, I'm doing this again with a little one, and you don't need to be a full-out anti-vaxxer to fall behind on your schedule. You just need that little kernel of doubt planted in your mind to maybe skip a dose. Explain how vaccines work and how important the schedule that scientists and doctors still recommend really is. The schedule is so important. A vaccine in its simplest form is exposing the immune system to a very small part of the virus that isn't dangerous, but then boost the immune system. So when that child or that patient sees the real virus, that immune system is primed and ready. We have spent a lot of years thinking about the schedule, trying to make it as convenient as possible for families and protecting against really dangerous diseases. These are not run-of-the-mill.

diseases. These are things that can harm and kill. I think about meningococcal, which you mentioned, I have cured for many patients over the years in the intensive curing. That is a devastating disease. And the fact that we have a vaccine that can prevent that, it's just my name that we would not, that we would not recommend it. So what is your advice to parents who are now sort of on the spectrum between confused, angry, and sort of disheartened that they don't know where to turn for credible information? You've heard me talk about this theme in the past, and it is that relationship with your primary care provider, whether it's a pediatrician, a family medicine physician, a nurse practitioner. It's a time once again for more conversations. What do you make of this recommendation? What do you think I should do for my child? It's also for parents to really realize there are wonderful people that are advancing the science that make recommendations like the American Academy Pediatrics. It is a distressing time for families. Pediatricians understand that. But that relationship you have with your primary care doctor is really important to have these conversations. And in a word, what is this EO? Is it politics? Is it fantasy? Is it paranoia? Trump seemed to sleep through it so he, for one, didn't find it riveting. Where is this coming from? I don't know what the agenda is. And I once again want to go to where we find ourselves in 2026. Measles is a horrible disease. Measles can kill a patient, can kill a child. It can lead to lifelong immune deficits. So in the middle of this time, we should be doing the opposite. We should be talking about how can we vaccinate more kids. We should be talking about there is no, repeat, no link between autism and vaccines. And families need to hear these messages from every part of the private sector and from health care. We'll continue to have this conversation with you. Dr. Michael Anderson, that's great to see you. Thank you for spending some time with us today. My pleasure. Quick break for us. We'll be right back.

It can feel overwhelming to look at all the destruction that Donald Trump and his administration have wrought to our institutions, to the fabric of our democracy, to the actual White House. But what gives me hope is all the people who are fighting against the damage and the Trump administration day after day after day. It's one of the reasons Mark Elias is my guest on this week's episode of The Best People. Take a listen to the story he told me that inspires his work in protecting elections. I think about this every day. Like, here is this kid who's like 19 years old. He is being held literally by the Nazis. And he comes up with the idea that what he's going to do every day is to poke holes in food, including potatoes, till his fingers are bleeding. Because it's going to starve the Nazi war effort. And the Americans are going to win. And so what gives me hope is like, I don't think that I am going to solve the problems of democracy. But every single day, I am poking holes in the potatoes. Like every single day, whether I win in court, whether I lose in court, I'm just going to poke holes in the potato. And I'm going to take hope in that if we do that, it will be enough to save democracy. Now, I'm no more... When I'm in my realistic moments and my dark moments, I don't think that that's going to have any more success than the POW. But what else are we going to do, Nicole? Like, what else am I going to do other than Trot? It's a powerful conversation. You all know, Mark, but this was him, as I'd never heard him before. You don't want to miss the conversation. Just scan the QR code on your screen to listen now or download it wherever you get your podcast. One more break. We'll be right back.

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