8/10/26 Panel

Ladies and Jens, this is the moment you've put her for. You've been searching in the dark your sweat soaking through the floor. And buried in your bones, there's an ache that you can't ignore. Taking your breath, stealing your mind, and all it was real is left behind. Don't fight it, it's coming for you're running. It's only this moment Don't can't walk together Yeah, fever dream Can't you see you getting closer Just surrender because you feel the feeling taking over It's fire Good morning. Welcome to the Roundtable for this Monday, the 10th of August. It's very nice to have you with us. It is the 10th of August, 2006. It's 9-11 in the morning. I hope you had a beautiful weekend. It could be rainy, but it could also be sunny. It could be very hot. It could be very humid, but then it could also have a lovely breeze. So hopefully you experienced all of those and enjoyed them in some quarters. Hopefully you all had a good, lovely, good weekend if you got time to enjoy it. Let me, we'll get to all the news of the day. I want to... introduce our terrific panel. We have a good one, and then we'll just jump right into the stories that we have and try to make a sense of all of that, which is our job to do. Let me welcome Bob Brigham, Professor of History and International Relations on the Shirley Eckers Bosque is the... Shirley Eckers-Boski Chair at Vassar College and a specialist on the history of U.S. foreign policy. Good morning. Bob, how are you? Good morning, Joe. I'm fine. Hope you are, too. Yes, very much so. Yeah. Good to have you here. Former mayor of the City of Albany, Kathy Sheehan. Good morning. Good morning. I'd just like to say that on paper, I had a perfect weekend. On paper, it was supposed to include taking my granddaughter to a little swimming hole and then going to Tanglewood for one of their morning concerts that they do with children, a wail of a tail. And having a lovely time, it really involved going to urgent care. dealing with an ear infection. But that's okay. Of your granddaughter's ear infection? Oh, goodness gracious. That's no fun. So we'll have to.

retry another time. Yeah, it was perfect on paper. It was a lovely weekend. A do-over, yes. No, see, we were sort of the opposite. Ours looked dismal on paper. And then we pulled out a pretty good weekend. We went over to the, went over to the Berkshires for, I had an event on Saturday night, the historian David Nassau. was there and was talking about his book, The Wounded Generation, and we did that at the New Marlboro Meeting House. And I don't know if any of you have been there, but that is a lovely, lovely... place, but more importantly, a lovely series that they have of conversations. There was a gallery. There were people on the green. It was just perfect. A man by the name of Barry Josh Shapiro runs that, and my goodness, was it just well planned and well executed, and it was a lovely day. David Nassau, who I believe him lives, has a part-time place in Columbia County. came down and my god we had fun we just had a really good really good discussion yeah it's good good stuff it was really fascinating fascinating and so that was great and we went to chesterwood the daniel chester french home in stockbridge and i had i had been there a long time ago but i haven't been there since they did all the renovation and work on it And it's stunning. Absolutely stunning. Views from that porch are breathtaking. Right. Breathtaking. The studio is beautiful. The house is beautiful. And then they have a barn where they have exhibits. And you just get a sense of the enormity of all that. And it was a really special day. We found a great barbecue place. We found a great ice cream place. You're really rubbing it in. I'm sorry. I sat in a car during a thunderstorm at the swimming hole. And then I got strep throat. You started out with low expectations. That's all. You've taught me that. That's right. I should start out with low expectations. Well, it was very fun. Mike Spain is former Times Union Associate Editor. Good morning, Mike. How are you? I'm great. I spent my Saturday and Sunday driving from the very southern end of North Carolina, but it was a great week at the beach. Oh, good. Yeah, what part of the North Carolina Beach? It was called North Topsel Island, and it's kind of near Wilmington. Oh, all right. You're down. Downways, downways, not the outer banks. Okay. But it had pretty good weather. The whole family was there were all the kids, grandkids and spouses and everything. Oh, that's lovely. That was great. Wonderful. Well, Pushy Prasad is going to be with us as well. Got into a little bit of traffic, and we'll be here in due course. So we'll... Was it the Central Avenue traffic? Because there's quite a bit out there. Well...

I don't, I hate getting into these things because, you know, what happens is you say something, and then the next thing you know, you're getting calls from the mayor's office. But I know they're doing good stuff. It's just, I thought they had already finished. Yeah, not yeah. It was, it was. It has not been, well, I'm not going to be pretty either. But I feel as though, it has not been well communicated. But it was like, it for. those who are not in the region but like a place will be like a whole section of the avenue will be closed and then they'll move on to another section of the avenue and then you think oh well this section is done and then you come back and it's it's so yes so hopefully we'll see pushy by 10 Good. It'll be great. Good morning, all. Welcome. We have a lot to talk about. We will do exactly that. We welcome your letters panel at wamc.org. Panel at wamc.org. And we will get to as many as we possibly can. All we do, all we like to ask you is to keep them short and to the point, and we will get to as many as possible. Let us start with... Iran holding firm and what we know about this situation, which is sort of where we were, but now there's this. Oh, here's pushy. Excellent. Hold on. This is a real radio, folks. I'm going to get the door for her. This is like the old Fiver McGee and Molly days. There you go. Hi, Pushy. How are you? Two accidents on 87 sounds. Out of my control, sorry. Suddenly, I feel like we can do sound effects in Furriggy's closet. All right. By the way, I'm only 58, and I'm still making... How do you really know? You know why, Mike? Because I grew up on public radio, and they played those old radio shows on W, HY, Y, Y, and Philadelphia. All right. Well, anyway, Pushing Good Morning. How are you? I'm sorry you were... You were... held up, but I'm glad you're here. I'm glad to be here, too. It's been a very hectic few days, actually, because my beloved cat, you know how beloved, in my present, leaped over a seven-foot fence and got lost. Oh, dear. And then the whole neighborhood, he was missing for two and a half days. I don't want to make this all about the cat, but the frantic anxiety was huge. Yeah, sure. And... He returned and what so impressed me was the amazing neighborhood, the friends, the supports from Colorado to California. And I just couldn't help thinking, you know, we're talking about all the divisiveness and the hate.

This is the America I really have grown to love, and nothing that Trump can do is changing that. No. So I want to start on that. Well, I think there's two reasons for that. One is they love you, but they also, people care about pets. Some of them don't even know me. And little children were doing, you know, search, little search projects and rattling his. Oh, that's really sweet. It was adorable. Now, did the cat sort of give you an attitude when he came back? No, he was so grateful. He doesn't want to go out. Oh, our. All right, okay. Well, tell them that to jump out. Sometimes you have to learn things the hard way. It looked like a good idea. That's right. I'm paper. I'm paper. It was a good idea. Pushy is the Arthur Zankel chair in management for liberal arts at Skidmore College, where she teaches international affairs and business management, and we're thrilled she is with us this morning. All right. So. The Strait of Hormuz is Iran's best leverage to get Washington to release Iran's frozen assets, lift economic sanctions, and end its naval blockade. The demands from Iran for reopening the Strait of Hormuz is laid out in a statement on Saturday are largely what President Trump had already agreed to in the memorandum of understanding that was signed on June 17th and quickly fell apart. But Iran sees control over the strait. as its best chance of getting Trump to deliver on those promises and is not willing to give them up just yet. For Iran, analysts suggest denying Mr. Trump the ability to claim victory over the strait is the most efficient lever to persuade him to recommit to those agreements and to implement them. Keeping the strait largely closed keeps energy prices high and is also a way to ensure the Persian Gulf states, which depend on the strait for exports, will also encourage Washington to return to the memorandum. The level of mistrust between Iran and the United States is so high that Tehran wants to ensure it gets the economic relief it has been promised to enable reconstruction before it gives up even partial control over the strait. This, according to the founder of the Boris M. Bazaar Foundation, a think tank focused on economic diplomacy. So we go back to that June memorandum of understanding. On Sunday, Mr. Trump told Axios that he believes that Iran will eventually come around because of economic distress and inflation. He did not threaten new military action against Iran, saying we are low-keying it. Iran's demands were listed on Saturday by the Secretary of Iran's Supreme National Security Council. He called for the U.S. to lift its naval blockade and sanctions on Iran's oil and petrochemical exports, withdraw the U.S. military from Iran, pay war reparations, and release frozen Iranian assets as well.

as then to tax on Iran's allies in the region, including in Lebanon, and threats against the country. So a lot of demands there. That reporting from the New York Times, Bob Brigham. What does it mean to be, quote, low-keying it? It's just another Trump term meaning nothing. You know, which always has surprised me about the Trump administration's approach to Iran is there are a few areas in the world where there is more expertise in Washington than in Iran on Iran. The Council on Foreign Relations has excellent people on Iran. The Washington Institute for Near East has excellent people on Iran. They're blocks from the White House. And yet none of them have been consulted. And this June memorandum and the ongoing Trump administration diplomacy on Iran shows the lack of expertise. And in countervailing that, almost everybody in the Iranian government was a shadow minister for decades. And they have a 50-year portfolio on the United States. So I think when they say they want to play the long game, they know what the long game looks like. And when Trump says he wants to low. he has no idea what that looks like. I also think that Iran's internal discussions must include this idea that the straight is now their new nuclear weapon. It's much more valuable than their nuclear program ever was or ever could be. And I don't think the Trump administration has caught up to that reality. The I want to hear from the other panelists, of course, but just a quick question because I sort of have and had a I won't say epiphany because that makes it sound like it's bigger than it is because I think probably most people had this a long time ago. I was just dumb enough to have it late. But this idea of that we're not doing what we're, oh, if we don't get this by then we're going to bomb the hell out of them. If we don't get this, we're going to destroy them if we don't get this. And then you also hear the story about the munitions. and the fact that we don't have the munitions. And that obviously plays into it, right? I mean, it has to. It has to, even this administration, because I know that the leaders of Lockheed Martin and of Raytheon are telling them, interceptors at the earliest to get anywhere near 20% reserve built back up is going to take to 2029. And the force structure just isn't there to support anything else, if anything else happens. And so. That has to be weighing on Iran's long-term calculations. That and that's how much Trump can bleed before November. They're dialed in. We are not.

You know, I actually really take issue with the use of the terminology in that, and it wasn't a quote, it was the reporter's reporting of saying giving Trump the ability for declaring victory over the street. I think it is not a victory before. Trump, without the support of his allies or working internally to build any consensus around attacking Iran, attacked Iran. Until he did that, the Strait of Hormuz was open. And so this is not a victory. This is trying to just get back. to the status quo before you literally started blowing things up. And I think that the other thing for me is that, you know, there were a lot of people who held their nose and voted for Trump, and I heard them say things like, yeah, he lies, but he doesn't really mean it. Yeah, he brags about stuff that he didn't really do, but he doesn't really mean it. Yeah, he takes pot shots at, you know, people who are experts and the insiders in Washington. Well, we are seeing played out with lives lost. thousands of lives lost in Iran, including children, exactly what happens when you elect someone with those characteristics to be the leader of the free world. He overestimates what he thinks he knows. He does not listen to experts. He politicizes it. And he lies. And so now we're in a position where, understandably, negotiating to any sort of agreement with Iran seems fraught. because they don't believe him because they shouldn't believe him, because he has demonstrated time and time again that he is not trustworthy. And that is who is in charge of our nation, of the next steps for resolving this conflict. And I have no, to me... No one's coming in. I haven't seen someone pop up as like maybe the Calvary, right? Like the voice of reason who can come in and talk this guy off the ledge. And so we are back again. If I go back and look at my notes, I take notes every time I'm on the roundtable. The number of times we've talked about the Strait of Hormuz I think is almost every time since this whole thing started. Well, that's right. And you know, the other thing too, that's right, because we keep going back. I was curious that I thought it was interesting that the Anderson Cooper on CNN ran an entire segment of each time the president said that it was, we're doing great, we're done, we're great, and then we're going to bomb the hell out of them and just kept on playing those back and forth. And there were like. 45 of them, just back and forth, back and forth. Now, that makes for really boring television. But it made the point, which I thought was obviously the point, to just see of how much back and forth there had been with, as you say, with no cavalry, with no real advancement of anything other than words.

If anything, I think we're losing ground, not just in Iran, because the international system that was constructed through Bretton Woods and Dumbart and Oaks and everything else at the end of World War II has collapsed. The relationship with NATO is strained. But now what we're also seeing is other allies in the region making associations with each other that this war has forced them into because they can no longer count on the United States as a predictable and stable actor in the international system. Pushing. First of all, I don't think many people really fully understand the extent of Iran's capacity to withstand punishment. Because this is historically been a country, and I'm not even talking even though the 21st or 20th century, even before that, ever since the days of Anglo-Russian rivalry, has been kind of a battleground for imperial powers. And, you know, One can't go into details on that, but it is kind of amazing to me in some ways that this country, which I think takes its source of pride from the idea of the Persian glory and the Persian Empire, is with all kinds of different administrations, able to, as I said, withstand unbelievable amounts of punishment. And so for them to wait out... Only till November. Yeah, right. So that's one of the points I kind of wanted to make. They also... Clearly, and I think our panel talked about this last week, become masters of unconventional war. And so that is something that I think there's a mindset in not only in the Trump administration, but I have to say even in earlier administrations, which I would have gladly voted for, who don't quite grasp, I think, the potency. of contemporary unconventional warfare, the cybersecurity possibilities, attacks on water, for instance. So really, I think. That's kind of amazing. If you are still on this topic, I would like to just remind our listeners what an epic disaster this has been. I mean, I know we've been talking about this forever, but first of all, it is a war that violated international law. I mean, that's kind of obvious. 1,700 Iranian civilians have been killed. 307 of them are actually children. Widespread damage to civilian infrastructure in Iran, of course. And has deepened regional turmoil, which I think Bob was talking about. And there have been attacks on apparently 600 U.S. bases in the area. 600. First of all, I had no idea until this war. But I learned something. It's just how many bases there are. And not to mention, of course, the energy disruption. So.

The idea that the U.S. and Americans have been made safer by this one, not only question. It's clearly almost absurd. Mike Spain. Yeah, I have to. I agree with all my colleagues here. You know, Trump says he believes Iran will eventually come around because of economic distress and inflation. But, you know, as you say, pushy, they're used to the long game and the idea that Trump and the U.S. In general, looks at the long game is absurd. We go election to election primary to primary poll to poll. We just seem fixated on the next couple of months and then move on. And Iran... You know, I go back, I mean, you go back centuries and pushy, but I go back to 1980 or 1979. I mean, they just stuck it out because they knew it would win when they had the hostages until Jimmy Carter was knocked out of the White House. That was a big factor in his own popularity and Ronald Reagan's victory. And he may, Reagan may have won anyway, but boy, it certainly made it impossible for Carter to succeed. And they know they have Trump over a barrel. And Kathy, you disagreed with the notion of Trump Trump claiming victory. Pardon my mispronunciation. But. I think the reporter is acknowledging that Trump will claim victory. It will not be a victory. It will put us not even better than it was before he did this. I mean, he needs to show safe face. He wants to go on TV and said, you know, we have victory here. And if we do stick to that memorandum of understanding from June, Iran stands to gain access to the world oil markets, and that's going to shoot up their economy. You know, it's very bad economy. It's going to help. And if we do release the assets that are frozen as part of that deal, we said we would do that. That's going to... be Iran's, you know, claim that we're doing rebuilding. And, you know, to them, that's what it is. It's reparations. And the fact that we're paying reparations to this enemy that we had to attack and we no longer have control and probably won't ever have control of the streets of Hormuz. It's going to become a toll booth for Oman and Iran. I mean, it, it.

We made a big mess out of that. Bob? Yeah, the agreement actually separates the lifting of sanctions on assets and reparations. And the sticking point is going to be the reparations because the Trump administration at no time has ever said it will pay reparations. And the Iranian government is completely divided over the likelihood of paying reparations. The newer hardliners who are harder than the old hardliners want reparations and really think that they can get them. And this this harks back to a lot of conflicts where, you know, the aggrieved want these reparations to help to help rebuild. So I think that that's going to be a real sticking point. Yeah, but I mean, if we, how much is being, how much money is frozen of Iranian money that they can't have access to right now? Billions and billions. Billions and billions, but that's different. I know it is different, but to them, it'll give them the money they need to repair. Except that, I mean. I mean, really, I want to say two things about that. A, I do think it's super important for the media to get this right because we all know that many, many Americans, it was a stunning number of Americans believed that we went to a war in Iraq, not just because of weapons of mass destruction, but because Al Qaeda was there and they were not. Okay? And so, you know, I do not want to give this president and the people around him any opportunity to reframe what is happening. potential peaceful solution to this as anything other than getting his ass out of the fire because he screwed this up in the first place. But that's just me. But the second thing is this. This is a guy who I remember the very first season of The Apprentice. And he is doing a walk and talk and he's taking all these young apprentices and he's putting them in a limo and they're going to fly on a private jet. And he says, this is what everybody wants. And I remember thinking, it really isn't. This is not what everyone wants, but he believes that. He thinks money will solve. Everybody has a price. And that's what he believes. And that belies his complete and total misunderstanding of so many places on this earth, but certainly a deep misunderstanding of Iran. Yeah, I agree. And I think that one of the reasons the reparation is going to be a sticking point is Marco Rubio is the only person in the room who really does understand that when you sign on to pay reparations, it's a war guilt clause. And they'll never do that. And so it's going to be, you know, the no-nothings versus the hardliners. And that debate is going to stretch this thing out way past November, I think.

I was just kind of looking at this also from this whole idea that the midterms are key and that he's going to kind of do something with Iran. But I saw an interview. I don't even remember who was interviewing the president, and they were discussing the unpopularity of the Iran war. But he was actually talking mostly about the unpopularity of the Republicans. And he very clearly stated that People don't like the Republicans. They still like me. I don't. Did anybody else watch us? Yeah, yeah. That was out there. That sounds on brand. I'm a business professor. I understand this branding business. But so his claim that, you know, that he is somehow, even in this particular instance, kind of pure as driven snow, plus he mentioned that he's not up for election. And so in some way, not in the midterms, right? So therefore, therefore, it's kind of water off his back. And so I just wonder, how is that going to shape the decision making? This whole idea that, you know, it's really a not my problem, is the party's problem, and I'm not even on the ballot. So does it really matter to him? It'll be interesting to see what happens in these next three weeks during recess when the senators especially go home. That would be good. And then they have to, you know, if they're burning up the homes. Guess what? We have to answer back in our districts. Right. But, I mean, it's it's ludicrous for him. I mean, of course he can say it. But every president is on the ballot at the midterm. Yeah. Every president is. And if they're popular, then the Congress folks want them. campaigning with them, and if they're not, they want to keep them at arm's length. But he has weighed in on every Republican primary. He is focused on getting his hardcore loyalists to win those primaries and to be on the ballot in November. So he is on the ballot in November. I know, but I wonder if he sees it that way. No, of course he doesn't. We all agree with that. And therefore, it doesn't seem to make. That's the part that intrigue me. It does not seem to matter to him because he's there for another two years regardless of what happens in November. And if a Democratic Congress, if it flips in both the House and the Senate, he'll just do unilateral things that'll go to court and he'll just bluster his way through the final two years. And if he doesn't lose... congressional support. I mean, if the Republicans hold on to one or two of the houses, it'll even be more complicated. And if that happens, he will certainly declare victory. Absolutely. Because he likes to do that. Right. Yes. But you also understand the of what, well, let me rephrase that. I don't understand why the Republicans seem to be so in the pocket, as it were, when it does not seem to be politically, not to say that you would go against it, but also...

you wouldn't think there would be the full-throated support that you so often see. Yeah, I think they were, you know, Washington is its own little special dome. I think they were locked down on, you know, Todd Blanche on these other issues. And I think this recess, when they go home, they're going to hear it. And I think that that's when you're going to see the rubber hit the road. with some of these Republicans. But I think there was a very interesting article about Mitch McConnell in the Atlantic. And, I mean, talk about, you know, there will be no profiles in courage with respect to him, I think, as far as how history looks at him. But it's all about the money, right? So Mitch McConnell worked very hard to push through to the Supreme Court and be successful. in saying that money is speech and it's protected by the First Amendment. And so these elected officials are looking at where the donors are going, where the money is coming from, and it is having a huge impact on what they are willing to say and whether they're willing to speak up. This is about following the money. But it's been demonstrated in the primary last week in Michigan with El-Sayed. He had $60 million going against him in that campaign, and he still won because he could communicate to people in a very, you know. profound way what the issues really were. And, I mean, a primary is different than a general election. I realize that. And that could be a different situation. But money, you know, just as we're finding out in Iran that military might and bombs is not enough and that there's other ways of warfare, I think politicians are finding that just throwing $60 million at a campaign is no longer a guarantee that it's going to produce results. Understood. But it buys, I think it. has bought silence in many, many people. For elected officials who need campaign contributions. One of the first people, the major donors to withdraw, I don't know, this was breaking news last night, is the Estée Lauder. A billionaire. Oh, Ron Lauder? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Who has said. Not giving any more money to the Republicans. Ron Lauder said that? I didn't even hear that. That's very late at night. That's significant. He's historically been a major New York Republican benefactor. And he's about 85 years old and apparently the sons are not so inclined either. So I just thought, whoa, well, if money really talks. The dinner conversation there, right? Yeah. Yeah. Let's take a break. When we come back, we'll continue. We'll get a couple letters on this subject and then we'll move on to other things. We welcome you, panel at wamc.org. Panel at wamc.org. We'll be back right after this. 76 trombones led the big parade with 110 cornets close at hand.

They were followed by rows and rows of the finest virtuals, the cream of every famous band. 76 trombones called the morning sun with 110 cornets right behind. There were more than a thousand reeds springing up like the weeds. There were horns of every shape and kind. Well, we're listening to Hugh Jackman, and he is a famous actor, a famous singer, and he will be at Tanglewood tomorrow night at 7 o'clock to perform with Keith Lockhart in the Boston Pops. You can go to the BSO.org or BSO.org, not the BSO.org for more information, and it'll, I'm sure, be an incredible evening of song. On paper, I am supposed to be there. Oh, on paper, you're supposed to be there. Well, good luck. No ear infections. Good luck, yes. It's 7 o'clock, and again, BSO.org or tangowood.org, and you can find out more information. Our playlist posted online at wamc.org slash roundtable. All right, let's go and see what letters we have. for today and on this particular topic before we move on to other topics, which will be incredibly some more. Okay, Vladimir Putin thought the world. Take two. Vladimir Putin thought he would collapse Ukraine in three days. Trump thought he would collapse Iran in three days. Neither of these bumbling madmen considered for a moment the humanity, the intelligence and skill of their opponent. Warfare is being reduced and redefined before our eyes. Being a superpower isn't what it used to be. That's from Jeff. I don't think it ever was, actually. You know, history books are filled with asymmetrical warfare, unthought of victories, and of the great powers never being able to translate their overwhelming military force into any kind of political corollary. I mean, that's what history is made out of. So I'm not, we shouldn't be surprised that this is. this is where we are and this is a familiar playbook. I have two responses. First of all, I completely agree with you. And I actually was thinking of Napoleon and the Spanish campaign where, you know, it was entirely won by the Spanish guerrillas. And so that was one thing. But the things have also changed technologically. And that kind of gives it almost an added flip to the old drone warfare. So unconventional warfers. possibly not even putting human bodies out always to the extent that it used to be in guerrilla warfare. I mean, in this conflict, you know, Iran's a very efficient producer of drones, manufacture, and do the technology themselves. But it's been low-tech contact mines that have run this thing that are very cheap to manufacture. And that, too, is part of the history of asymmetrical warfare.

All right, let's go to other letters. We go to this from Bob. Yes, Trump's war with Iran is illegal and stupid. It is not new for recent administrations. Iraq invasion during the Bush. administration which gave Iran a foothold to influence Iraq, Obama's wars in Libya and Syria, which gave the world an ungoverned Libya and ISIS in charge of Syria. All three of these administrations should be brought before the Hague for crimes against humanity that from Bob in Albany. Then we go to... David, who says, it's positively laughable that this country, just celebrating its 250th birthday, and this bumbling administration thinks that a 5,000-year-old civilization is just going to fold like a cheap suit, the damage done is staggering and will take years or more to rectify, if ever. Trump and his cohorts are, simply put, a complete clown show. I think buried in that is a really interesting supposition, which is that it is going to take decades and decades to rebuild the capacity in Washington to function in foreign policy circles. I mean, the State Department has been so hollowed out, the dismantling and destruction of USAID. This is going to take decades to rebuild. Irene writes to us and says Trump uses repetitive statements even if they are blatant lies and completely absurd to justify his behavior and convince his followers what he is doing is right and they are right for believing him. That from... Irene. Then we got a nifty letter from Lance who says, at the risk of stating the obvious, Trump's recklessness and unreliability is clear to all players on the world stage. In addition to turning on allies and betraying his own promises, such as keeping America out of forever wars, we're all subjected to the daily yo-yo spin regarding ceasefires and negotiations. We see the oil market fluctuating in response. Crude is up, it's down, it's up, it's down, it's up, it's down. So, will there come a time when the market completely shrugs off the daily absurdity streaming from truth social? Clearly, it's not a reliable indicator of U.S. actions or policy, and what happens when the market stops taking the temperature in the Oval Office? At that point, the U.S. will have lost yet one more hand at the helm, and it will gladly be seized by another. That seems to me such a good point. Well, and I think that the issue with the stock market and the stock market is not the economy and that, you know, endless sort of argument is this. And when Trump says this is the best economy ever.

He believes that. And the reason he believes that is because he is surrounded by the people who are benefiting from this very particular economy. He is surrounded by multimillionaires and billionaires and trillionaires. He is hearing from them how great they're doing. He's seeing them buy their new super yacht. He's seeing them buy their new private jet. All of his friends are doing great and probably have never done better. But that's because they are capturing more and more and more of the nation's wealth at the expense of everyone else. And so his inability to see that is like... the Bush comment about seeing a UPC scanner at a grocery store like, wow, this is cool, demonstrated how out of touch he was with the average American. But this president, that is the one thing that I believe when he says it, that he 100% believes it's true. Because. We've never had such wealth inequality in this country. And it is the people that he is surrounded by who are the ones who are doing well. And he does not, he does not understand, nor do I think he has the emotional capacity to sit down with a single mother with two kids and head start and understand. what her day is like. He would despise her. He would think it's all the fall. She's just kind of faking victimhood. But, you know, I do want to say he did learn a lot of lessons from someone called Roy Kohn, right? And so to that extent, I'm wondering, does he really not see fact from fiction? Or has he so learned as a matter of what sociologists call habitus to actually... not see it. It's sort of a complicated kind of argument. Well, the result is the same, though. The result is the same. Absolutely right. Whether he truly does believe the economy is really booming the way he says it. But the thing, Kathy, is the people who are suffering from whom the wealth is being stolen right now are the people who put him in office. That's the tragic iron. And I think that's where anyone who's running for office today needs to speak to them very directly and talk about what would be different and how this economy is stacked against them. And that when you look at the tax cuts that this Congress passed for billionaires and trillionaires, we can track the money. It's not hard. We know where your money went that was putting food on your table. We know where your money went that was allowing you to have just the decency of health care. And, you know, I will say, you know, I walked into a urgent care and I didn't have my granddaughter's insurance card. And they don't have a system that allows you to look it up. So I paid $175 for that visit. Now I have $175.

But if I didn't have $175, I would have had to turn around and bring a screaming child back home who was clearly suffering and in pain. And so... That's where we need to ensure that we are electing people who can live that and understand that lived experience of people and then communicate it back to them. And we didn't do that the last time around. The Democrats certainly didn't. Sorry. I'm sorry. That's why, though, that people like Zohran Mamdani and Abdul El-Sayed and Michigan are so effective. They are pointing that out and it's ringing through to people. But if I could go back to the market argument, which I think the writer is very interestingly alluding to, the markets work only if there's a high level of symmetry in them and equity. The market right now, the stock market in particular, is really, I wouldn't use the word rigged necessarily, though it's borderline rigged. It's really lopsided in favor of certain... high-level investors. So that doesn't have to be a single firm, though it often can be some of the private equity firms, but even the institutional investors. So this is not as if the market is sort of responding to it in an Adam Smith way, which is, you know, we're all in a little commune. It's like the farmer's market. It's nothing like that. And there's so much information asymmetry as well as asymmetry of actual amounts of investment and what kind of manipulations. People are making money on this market by manipulating it. But that's allowed. And so it's legal. John writes to us and says former mayor Sheen is wrong. Trump is not the leader of the free world. He's the leader of the far right white supremacist world. That's from John. But I think we should hold out hope that we will be seen as leaders in the free world at some point in time, which is why I continue to use that terminology. Because. You know, I think my fellow panelists have said it is going to take decades to rebuild the trust that has been lost, but I think it is something we should aspire to. Meanwhile, Susan writes, as much as I enjoy the perspectives of all of your panels, all of your panel members, Kathy Sheehan stands out with her ability to comprehensively articulate the issues of today. She pairs them down concisely, and she's a joy to listen to that from Susan. Thank you, Susan. Your checks in the mail. That is nice bookends. Here's a question that you probably don't want to ask three minutes before a break, but I'm going to do it anyway. Rick says, so why is there no discussion regarding the terrible pain and suffering that Trump's oil embargo was causing Cuba? If I was Cuba, I'd...

be nervous because, you know, the bait and switch is going to come at some point, right? Probably in October surprise if history repeats. So I would be nervous if I was Cuba. Clearly, they're in the crosshairs. Yeah, we're identifying who we want to lead Cuba, and it's, you know, they wanted Venezuela, if that's a verb. Thank you again. Cuba has shown amazing capacity to withstand all kinds of punishment as well. Although, of course, in the Cold War days, it had the Soviet Union, which it doesn't anymore. But, yeah, I think we should be talking more about Cuba. Maybe another panel discussion. Sounds good. I bet we'll have another one of those. We're going to take a break. When we come back, we will continue. We'll move on to other topics, and we will get your letters panel at wamc.org. Gone on high.

Good morning. Welcome back to the Roundtable. Hugh Jackman, as who we're listening to, is going to be at the Boston Pops, at Tanglewood tomorrow night, with Boston Pops. 7 o'clock performance. You can find out more tanglewood.org. Tanglewood.org. Okay. Let's move on to other topics. And so... Let's see. I want to talk a little bit about Benjamin Netanyahu rejecting the Trump-backed Gaza plan for Hamas disarmament. And the Israeli withdrawal, Israel does not accept the 15-point document. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said the U.S. President has touted the Board of Peace Plan as a step toward a lasting settlement. Now what do we do? Benjamin Netanyahu at the start of a government meeting said that Israel does not accept the document. Hamas in a statement reaffirmed its own commitment to the plan. It agreed on with the Board of Peace, which was created by Trump and called on parties to help ensure its implementation. The White House, when asked for comment on Benjamin Netanyahu's remarks, referred the Washington Post to the Board of Peace, which did not immediately respond.

You know, anyone who knows anything about the history of negotiations knows that Hamas is not serious about this, nor is the Board of Peace a serious diplomatic endeavor. Disarmament never comes first. never, ever comes first in an agreement. All the political details have to be worked out in an agreement. This is true of the North Ireland, true in South Africa, elections. You have to bring people who are out in the cold back into political life. And they have to have guarantees. There have to be mutually reinforcing mechanisms that make this thing work. So I don't think anyone. who knows anything about negotiations, ever thought that this agreement actually was going to hold. And of course, Benjamin Netanyahu's got an election to worry about. And he can't get elected supporting that Board of Peace Agreement. So to your point, this reporting from the Washington Post and Bill in July 30th, the Gaza plan from the Board of Peace gave Hamas and Israel two weeks to agree on a timetable and process for implementing the disarmament of Hamas and the withdrawal of Israeli forces from Gaza. However, the militant group and Israel disagree as to which should come first. Your point. Hamas says Israel must end its military campaign in Gaza as a first step, and Israel has called for complete disarmament of Hamas and removal of weapons from Gaza as a prerequisite for with... for withdrawing. Trump, in announcing the plan late last month, was saying on truth social that the Board of Peace, a group that was set up in the aftermath of the 2025 deal to release the remaining hostages that Hamas seized during the October 7th attack on Israel reached a historic Shadiqqq agreement for the Shadiqq complete disarmament of Hamas and all other groups in Gaza. He called it a monumental... quote, a monumental step toward lasting peace, shoddy caps, and security, shoddy caps. You know, one of the things that strikes me about just our... current state of play. And some people would say, well, this brings about more transparency. But it's that we're watching these negotiations and seeing their terms in real times, in real time. And so we're seeing what the demands are of Iran or what the demands are of Hamas and what the demands are of Israel in real time. And to me, it doesn't provide the space and place for the parties to get in a room and create a meeting of the minds.

And if there's not a meeting of the minds, then there's no contract. So when we've looked at these latest MOUs or the outlines of peace, they really, it's been clear from just the wording of them that there are huge areas where the parties still very much vehemently disagree. And so for them to be sold to us as peace agreements or as a pathway to peace, is really, you know, I mean, that's what Trump does, right? You know, sell stuff that, right? It's a fraud, really, because there's no meeting of the minds. And, you know, I know from my corporate days, you know, there would be times when my CEO would be like, just don't ask another question. to me, you know, because he was worried I was going to blow up the deal. But I was asking questions so I could make sure that we had a meeting of the minds, right? You want to buy X. We want to sell X. You want to pay Y. We're willing to take Y. But there are a lot of things in between that you need to make sure you have a meeting of the minds about in order for a deal to really work and to go through. And I don't want to, I mean, that's grossly oversimplifying it. But what we're seeing to me, and I'd love to hear from the other panelists who know a lot more about this than I do, of Is this how you do peace negotiations? No, of course not. There's always linkage. And in this case, the linkage. Good setup. Yeah, the linkage should be between Israeli withdrawal and disarmament. I mean, if we look at one of the most successful peace negotiations ever, the Agreement, Good Friday Agreement in the North of Ireland, there was complete linkage, a release of political prisoners, participation fully in the Stormont government, and disarmament. It still took eight years. After everybody agreed on everything, it took eight years for disarmament to actually be certified. These things don't happen in two weeks. It's just not how negotiations... They also don't happen as if it's reality TV, and that seems to be the kind of preferred structure here. So, I mean, even something like Camp David, even if they didn't work, the Palestinian agreement, they were all conduct. You heard about it after it was done, not, you know, on and off throughout the whole. And I was kind of struck actually yesterday. I watched the speech that Benjamin Netanyahu gave. And he said the usual expected things. And, you know, we all know the elections and Israel are putting a lot of pressure on him. He made it very clear that as long as he was in charge, and this is clearly an election ploy, there would be no free Gaza and there would be no free West Bank. And there would never be a two-state solution. So he's at the same time committing to this higher goal. And I'm just wondering, how does all that plane... to the peace. What is the peace? Board of peace. Board of peace. Board of peace. Think about that. Have they kind of wrestled with that? I mean, so wild. Well, what about the political implications of the President of the United States putting out word just a few weeks ago that we have an agreement for the disarmament of Hamas and it's historic and it's going to bring peace?

And then the leader of Israel, one of our absolutely closest allies, comes out and says, no way, man. I mean, to the American public, it's confusing. Now, wait, our president negotiated a deal. Why don't you want it? But, Bob, you explained it quite well. It wasn't a deal. It was a... A headline. A headline. Exactly. That's exactly what it was and only a headline. But it has to at least cause confusion and somehow diminish U.S. electorate's support of Israel, which is the exact opposite of probably what Trump is trying to achieve. And I think that this is one of the reasons that we're seeing such an erosion in support for Israel, because you have people, even those who are, who believe that Israel has a right to exist, who are saying, just like some people are looking at the United States, look at this person that is leading your nation. And the words that he is saying to say there will be no Palestine, there will be no two-state solution, I think for most people, that's a non-starter, even those who support Israel. I think if you did a poll in this country, they want to see a two-state solution. They want to see the human rights abuses that are happening in Gaza and in the West Bank end. They want to see a solution to settlements. They want... for there to be justice in Israel and be it just Israel. And yet, right now we're seeing it highly likely that Benjamin Netanyahu is going to be reelected. So he is falling behind, isn't he, a little bit in the polls? I don't know by how much. And I don't think we get sufficient coverage of internal Israeli politics, because that would also help many of us to understand what is going on. Because there's been such interesting demographic changes in Israel. In the last two years, the exodus, literally, I mean, I don't mean this. I just use the word. But huge exodus of Israelis. last year alone it was 450,000 who quit, quit the country and not going back. I know personally people who are doing that. It's kind of taking Israel in a strange path because the people who can leave Israel are almost entirely somewhat privileged, much more close to European, certainly Western European, even Eastern European ancestry and therefore white really. And the people who are staying back now ultra-orthodox so that's going to be kind of changing even the pressure on the leadership and the elections is kind of where I'm going with this I don't know if anybody else had thoughts there's a lot of talk now of Israel

tilting towards being a failed state and very responsible scholars are saying that. Yeah, I mean, you know, I have a good friend who lived both in the U.S. and in Israel for years. And when I visited Israel with a group of other mayors, one of the things that we remarked about was how Israel has a growing population at that time. This was in 2019. The economy was booming. It seemed like some of that... financial benefit was certainly spilling over to the West Bank, not as much Gaza, and that there was a lot of hope for what the future could look like. But my friend who lived in Israel said, well, you have to look at how the population is growing. So even then in 2019, it's the ultra-Orthodox families who have lots and lots of children, and they also have a political agenda. And so, and that political agenda is not aligned with, I think, many of the people who we now see who are leaving, who did support a two-state solution and did want to see the economic prosperity in Israel also benefit everyone, including the Palestinians. Anybody have anything else in that? All right. Let's go to other topics, and we move on. And we welcome you for your thoughts. Panel at wamc.org. Panel at wamc.org. So. We talked about this on Friday just a little bit, but now we're seeing more, getting more information and some more reaction from the story about U.S. hiring slumps, which is a worrying sign for the economy. So let's talk about the economy. Employers shed 23,000 jobs in July and gains in previous months were revised down sharply. downbeat report that suggests the labor market is weaker than previously believed this from the New York Times. The labor market posted a modest lost in July as businesses shed jobs in the face of renewed tariffs and higher costs driven by a war in the Middle East. Employers cut 23,000 positions on a seasonally adjusted basis last month. The Labor Department reported this on Friday, and the unemployment rate dropped slightly to 4.1% as hundreds of thousands of people left the workforce. Speaking to reporters, Kevin Hassett, the director of the National Economic Council, tried to make the case that the economy remains strong despite the poor jobs report that was released, citing a burst in factory construction and the jobs that would... that would help create, Kevin Hassett said the administration remains, quote, very bullish even when there's numbers like today, which he described as, quote, unquote, temporary. So this report is clearly disappointing or should be disappointing to a responsible leadership. So it's kind of interesting that we are in the spin area as well.

Yeah, the economy lost 23,000. It was expected to actually gain 80,000 jobs. So when you kind of compare it with the expectations, it's even worse. There's a lot of talk right now about the unemployment being fairly low, which is at 4.1% at least in certain circles. But the reality is that the participation rate went down. The participation rate is the... proportion of able-bodied workers in the economy of a particular age who are either in employment or actively looking for employment. And that actually has fallen to 62 percent, which is kind of not... a great number. So there are all kinds of worrying signals all over. The only sector which did really well in adding jobs is predictably the health sector, because the aging population and so on. Though there's some worry that cuts to Medicare, Medicaid can kind of even trim that particular sector. I could not help. looking at our neighbors to the north, especially since many people here know I'm a Canadian. By contrast, the Canadian economy actually did very well in the same three-month period, performed much better despite the burden of US tariffs. Now, I have not looked very carefully into why that was so, but it was kind of an interesting. So this whole idea that the whole world is suffering equally because even if they are, is not actually quite true. If you look at these numbers, admittedly, I'm the first person to say these numbers are always tricky. The stock market, despite everything, responded happily very well, partly because the expectation now is that because it was not If not grim, it was a little disappointing that the Fed would actually lower interest rates, which is exactly what the stock market wants. So this is where I'm saying, you know, I've come back to an earlier point in media. The idea that the market can predict things accurately is frankly quite ridiculous. I'm sorry to be so opinionated on that. So on the one hand, you have the stock market saying, yay, because not because people are not having employment, but because it's now that the Fed will lower the rate. On the other hand, the Fed is still stuck with inflation. Can it really? So it's kind of the economy is moving in two different directions, and those two different directions are really worrying to most responsible economists. And that is one is towards inflation. The other direction is towards stagnancy. You bring them together. You have something called stagflation. That is something. 1970s, you're calling. 76. Yeah, when Paul Walker kind of raised and rescued the whole thing, but he took several.

And I think that this is where the lack of any focus on how we grow the economy in a healthy way in the estimation of most Americans is such a challenge because, you know, during the Biden years, we did have very high inflation, but we also had very intentional bets that were being made. by the government, by policymakers about the future. And those bets included the the Chips and Science Act. It included a lot of investment in green energy to try to spur the green energy sector and create new jobs and new opportunities. There was an intentionality. And what we see now is... Trump waking up on the wrong side of the bed and using tariffs here and tariffs there. And then when you pile on it, the fact that he very misguidedly entered into this war, which, as you said, this isn't that there's so much demand that it's pushing up prices. This is happening because of external factors. And so now what we're hearing is that this is a government that wants us to build more data centers and more gas-powered plants, old economy, and I think even those in the business sector understand that the future is investing in the future. And when you look at what other countries, especially China is doing, investing in these technologies, we are falling further and further behind. So I think you layer on top of... inflation and these horrible jobs numbers, the fact that we don't have a vision, at least it's not being communicated to us, in Washington that I think is really inspiring investment in particular sectors where the U.S. feels like we can really win here. I think also we need to keep in mind that part of the low participation, the employment participation rate is because for younger workers in particular, educated ones, they're not able to find jobs that meet their qualifications. And so that is becoming an increasing problem, and to be fair, not only in the U.S., but all over the world, actually. And here, you know, some of this AI is definitely partly responsible for that. My own students who graduated in May this year, some of them really, really wonderful, brilliant students with degrees, majors, and business and management are still not finding jobs. So... Pushy, when you, we just have about two minutes before break, but when you look at, one of the things that struck me about this report is we've discussed it is that it was the words they kept by and use as surprising or unexpected. So what can we expect for next month? I don't think it's going to be much better because the structural problems are not fixed.

And you still have a lot of layoffs coming from the big tech companies, and yet we seem to have a lot of faith in them. I mean, that is also kind of paradoxical. I mean, that respect, I tend to be a little old-fashioned and kind of favoring a more manufacturing or some level of a manufacturing and agricultural economy. But there is a real world there, you know, and, you know, ultimately we need real material things, even more than we need. some program to tell us who we should be dating. And jobs and information technology are way down. in this report. That too, that's paradoxically, yes, because of, partly because employers, it's not so much that AI has actually replaced people. That's what I'm finding. It's more the anticipation that companies will have to spend much more on AI and therefore they're letting people go in order to have the money to spend much more. Right. Like META just did this morning. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. We'll take a break. We'll continue and be back for the last part of our program right after this.

There's a bright golden haze on the middle. There's a bright golden haze on the middle. The corn is as high as an elephant's eye. And it looks like it's climbing clear up to the sky. Oh, what a beautiful moon. When's the last time you had that wonderful feeling that everything was going your way? I was just flashing back to my mom putting this album on, like, the big stereo thing, furniture, and we would all sing it together. Beautiful morning. Well, it is a beautiful morning. We have wonderful panelists here, and we're talking about the news of the day. That news maybe not as much. That's not a wonderful. No. Wonderful feeling? No. Here we go. We welcome your letters panel at wamc.org panel at wamc.org.org. Just a quick thing I'd like to mention that is coming up in the... Every once in a while, I just like to do a little bit of self-promotion. On Sunday, the amazing, incredible... Pulitzer Prize winning author Richard Russo will be at the Universal Preservation Hall on Sunday at 4 p.m. and he'll be in conversation with me. Rick and I have done these conversations over the years. We enjoy each other's company very much, and we do them a lot. And they're really fun. So whenever a new book comes out, we, we. find a place to do it. And so this is at the UPH, which I will argue is one of the greatest venues in this region. It's a fantastic, beautiful place. Every seat in the house is a good seat. It really is. It's fantastic. And having done many talks there in interviews, it's just a great place to see, and especially an event like this. Richard Russo has a brand new book out. It is called Under the Falls. And he will be with us on Sunday at 4 o'clock at the Universal Preservation Hall.

Northshire Bookstore in Saratoga is putting this all on, and it's a WAMC on the road event. And all you got to do is go to northshire.com. Northshire.com. And that'll actually send you to a UPS website, which will get you your ticket. But it's probably the easiest way to do it. Northshire.com. Richard Russo, Under the Falls, at Uph, 4 o'clock, and we'll have a good time. I will also say that this book is terrific. Really, really good. Different. Very different. Still, well, I say that. Still, there's that kind of rust belt look of these mill towns that are failing. but also and people coming back. But this has a good mystery to it. It's quite a propulsive thriller. So good stuff. Richard Russo, Under the Falls, 4 o'clock on Sunday. We'd love for you to be with us, Northshire.com. All right. Let's go to other stories making news on this Monday morning. We go to Todd Blanche. I don't think when we left on Friday, Todd Blanche was officially the Attorney General. And now he is. Todd Blanche, as AG, faces pressure from Trump, skeptical courts, and low staff morale. That is the headline from the Washington Post. With his bruising confirmation battle behind him, Todd Blanche will soon. be sworn in. He's been sworn in, though, I believe, right? Right, I think right away, yeah. Yeah, it was sworn it. The hardest part may be what comes next. Todd Blanche, President Donald Trump's former criminal defense lawyer will officially assume the title of attorney general and take command of an agency that he has led on an acting basis since April. But he will do so under competing pressures from a president intent on seeing his enemies put on trial, a federal judiciary increasingly skeptical of those efforts, and a Republican-led Congress, growing doubts about Todd Blanche's ability to say no to his boss. He got confirmed by one vote. The Justice Department's career staff has been ravaged by firings, departures, and low morale over the past year and a half as its traditional independence from the White House evaporated. And its to-do list has only grown longer, including stepped-up efforts to prosecute fraud, illegal immigration, and violent crime while pursuing the sweeping politically charged investigations of foes that the president has demanded from the department. Todd Blanche acknowledged those challenges and the difficulty of meeting Trump's expectations as he spoke to reporters ahead of his confirmation last week. It's not as if I remain blissfully unaware of what will happen if I am confirmed, he said. When President Trump talks about what he expects from the department to do to make this country safe, I don't think the American people should look at the same sort of threat to me or warning to me. He wants this country to be safe.

He wants to stay out of jail. I mean, you know, Todd Blanche. No, the president. The president. So, I mean, look, any thought that this president. All trying to stay out of jail. Thinks about our safety and the safety of Americans. I mean, just look at what happened in Minnesota, where American citizens died. He does not care about. average American safety. He just doesn't. If you look at his actions, they're wanton. But I think that this idea that independence evaporated, it didn't. evaporate. There was like a nuclear explosion. You have a, you have a justice department that sought out lawyers, staff lawyers, who were assigned January 6th cases. This is, this is somebody who had no control or say over what their portfolio looked like. Somebody two, three years out of law school. Here, go work on this. They hunted them down and summarily fired them. This is a, a Department of Justice that has made it very clear to anyone who is still there, what is expected of them and what they must do in order to keep their jobs. And to me, the fact that this individual was actually confirmed. as we talk time and time again, no profiles of courage in the Senate. This is an individual. They allowed two of their members, two Republicans to vote against it so they can possibly be reelected like Susan Collins. How did John Fetterman vote? I'm just curious. Does anybody know? How did what? John Fetterman. He voted with the Democrats. Oh, he did. Okay. It's a rare show of courage. It's probably just a matter of time. I mean, the article alludes to this, the pressure that Todd Blanche is going to be under to, you know. follow the letter of the law and his boss, I think he also should be worried about being disbarred. The list of Trump lawyers who've attained government positions have been disbarred is astronomical. So it's a real possibility, I think, for him. He's got to be weighing that as well as he, you know, wanders through this wilderness. Well, in this wilderness, I mean, I don't, I don't mean to be cynical. God knows I don't mean to be cynical. But we sort of know how this movie is going to answer. This is the revenge tour. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we've seen this enough to kind of get an idea of how this is going to be. He probably day one, handed the list.

of targets, and that's his job. You know, the irony is that yesterday was August 9th, the 52nd anniversary of Nixon's resignation. And it was when bipartisanship existed. It's when the special prosecutor, you know, was able to get the information and make it public, and that mattered. And, and. The enemies list, Bob, you refer to the enemies list. I think you're describing a new enemies list that Todd Blanche has been handed. But it was the enemies list that one of the biggest things that got Nixon in trouble. And now it's just expected. And that's the way it is. It's tragic when you think of how important. process, procedure, ethics, and law meant then and how little regard we have for it. Well, some have for it now. I apologize for going off a little bit here, but I was struck while seeing the letter, the resignation letter. And I know no other president has resigned. But Nixon's resignation at his library? Yes. That just says, dear Mr. Secretary, I hereby resign the office of the President of the United States. Richard Dixon. Not real wordy. But I guess it gets to the point. I was sort of surprised. I thought it would be a little more. Well, but his outgoing speech talking about and, you know, and talking about how his political base in Congress had evaporated and that's why he left. Yeah. Well, on that, you know, that faithful decision was made when Barry Goldwater and a handful of Republicans walked over to the White House and said the votes are there. Yeah. You got to give this up. Right. And that's when members of both parties had backbone. And stood together. You think about the lasting memories from those hearings. It's Howard Baker. It's the when and where. On the committees, yeah. So what is also kind of sad is the degree to which this has become a playbook for other leaders all over the world. You know, ranging from what's his name, Mili in Argentina to Narendra Modi in my original home country and Recep Tayyip Erdogan and other. I think Colombia is going to kind of follow in the same. But it's also almost like, wow, we always look up to America and now we continue doing that for very different reasons. And that's actually very sad. You know, it's interesting, but in some ways, I think our previous discussion about the jobs report and this, the travesty of the legal system, are interrelated completely because, you know, investors, markets, customers, they all want.

transparent, legal, right of return, all those kind of things that this country used to be a leader in. And it's sad, as Mike says, to see the bedrock of the legal foundation shook so deeply. Also, it was the anniversary of Gerald Ford saying our long national nightmare is over. For now. That round. It was. Yeah, maybe that moment. But can I just speak to this enemies list and what this really means? And we did talk about this a little bit when we were talking about Dr. Anthony Fauci last week, is that these are individuals who are many of them public servants, many of them were doing their jobs in good faith and got on the wrong side of the president. And there is a real cost to them. They have to hire lawyers. They have to go through the stress and the anxiety of being called before Congress or deposed by lawyers and asked ridiculous questions and have their lives, you know, opened up and peered into and then deal with on social media. The vitriol, death threats, all of these things that we're seeing happen to these individuals. So there's a real human cost to this. And it also, I think, to the point of my fellow colleagues here, reputationally, it really harms us internationally because we are seen as no different than some republics that we would describe as. in very demeaning. Ten bot turns. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Well, the other thing, too, and I agree with you entirely, Kathy, but you look at people like Anthony Fauci who are, I mean, obviously these were people in key positions and, you know, a certain amount of a back and forth as expected. What he's going through, obviously not, and it seems to be just so. I think unfair, but you look at somebody like the Olympian and the, I mean, or even James Comey with the seashells. I mean, it's like we're not even. It's just silly. The pettiness knows no bounds. No, it doesn't. It doesn't. Yeah, and speaking of the Olympian who was charged with slashing the bottom of the reflection pool at Lincoln Memorial, and then Jeannie Piro actually stepped up. I couldn't believe it. And now she's on the line. And now Todd Blanche even says, you know, I stand behind her. She's a good prosecutor. But if the president wants to fire, you know. I'll fire her. You know, that just tells you all. Well, and that story turned around over the weekend, too, where he's now on Truth Social was showing his proof that it was vandalism and so forth. Right. Yeah. Okay.

But sure he did, wasn't that one? But he kept saying you're fired. Yes. No, it's like the crowd at his first inauguration, where he like literally just could not accept the fact that there were more people at Obama's inauguration than it his. And even in the face of truth, he just cannot let it go. I mean, there is a pathology here. that is difficult to watch, but going back to what we were saying about what's happening in Iran, what's happening in Israel, what's happening with our allies, it is undermining our ability to, I think, keep Americans safe, to protect our homeland and to be successful in ensuring that we are seen in the world as having a place at the table. So this is so much more harm is being done than just us sitting around laughing about it and people sending out memes. This is this impact everything that we are trying to accomplish. And there's a lot of hidden things that we don't even really realize right now. I mean, like this interceptor shortfall. I mean, Taiwan is on a razor's edge right now. Right. A lot of our allies who have relied on us historically have to doubt the wisdom of that decision. I have to say that for me, and I know the crowd size of the inauguration was like the beginning of it. But the one that, like, really said, oh, this is what we're up against was Sharpie Gate. Oh, yeah. Remember that with Hurricane Dorian where he had the map? And they said, well, you didn't include Alabama. Yes, they did include Alabama. So then he comes up with the map. This big bubble that comes out that includes Alabama. Well, we took care of that. Actually, my goodness. You know, for all of us who were in elected office, that was a little bit of moment of comic relief because, you know, my staff, I forget what they used a Sharpie on, but I'm at a staff meeting and we put up a poster. And they're like, and here's where the mayor outlined where this is really going to go. And we all laughed hilariously. Yeah, you laugh until you cry. But our long national nightmare is over. But Kathy, you said that we had a place at the table internationally. We were at the head of the table. Now we even wonder how serious a role we have at all. And Bob, you mentioned earlier, I mean, this is not the kind of thing that goes away if... A new president is elected. No, I mean, the infrastructure, like, for example, one of the reasons we had such great area expertise for the last 60 years was we had these Title VI grants that created centers of excellence at our Research One universities. This administration has cut them. Now, they're trying to play catch-up. They finally realized, oh, we have nobody with a Ph.D. in Arabic.

You know, we've got to do this. So they are allowing grants again. But it's going to take decades and decades and decades to bring up. Even if the will was there, the capacity isn't there. And the money isn't there. It was given away in a tax cut and then blown up in Iran. Final story in our last five minutes together comes to us from... Michigan and the I thought it was interesting I thought the story was interesting but I also thought the fact that it was so made made news was interesting too, but former President Barack Obama calling both Abdul El-Sayed and Representative Haley Stevens on Friday praising their efforts to unify Michigan Democrats after rusing primary and offering an early boost to Abdul El-Sayed's general election Senate campaign. Obama's call with Abdul El-Sayed is a signal of early support, according to a person familiar with the former president's thinking. The two spoke Friday and had a warm, encouraging discussion and look forward to working together to unite Democrats to Michigan in November. It's the last, excuse me, the latest sign that the campaign is bending fences after the bare-knuckled primary and Obama's calls follow similar ones from former Vice President Kamala Harris and other potential 28 Democratic presidential contenders, including. Pete Buttigieg, and Senator Mark Kelly. Obama also called Stevens on Friday following the primary, the former president, quote, appreciates her focus on uniting Democrats to win Michigan in November. I got to say, the historian in me thinks that this is just out of step. If the gap between Dr. Abdul El-Sayed and Haley Stevens is... minuscule compared to the gap, for example, between Hubert Humphrey and Strom Thurman, both Democrats in 1948, on the complete opposite side of the biggest issue facing America in the day race. This is going to be something I think that Dr. Al C. is very skilled at speaking directly to Michigan voters. I think this is a... basically a non-issue. The Democratic Party has always had huge divisions within it. It's what makes it the Democratic Party. And to me, this is not that. This is not the difference between a segregationist and somebody who wants to put the civil rights platform in the 1948 Democratic Party. I totally agree. Sorry, I totally agree. But I'm also finding that the real issue is some of these celebrities, like Bill Maher, for instance, or I guess a political celebrity, what's his name, the raging, Cajun, James Carver. Parable, yeah. Sort of coming out and declaring, I will no longer belong to this Democratic Party when you have these people. I mean...

But it's Democrats who elected them, right? So it's not like some outside alien came and elected them. But that seems to kind of stir up. And I do follow the mainstream media only because television media, only because I just like to keep. And they kind of play into this, actually, more than anything. At some level, as Bob is saying, it seems kind of straightforward, right? There are a bunch of people who voted for Haley Stevens. They're mostly registered Democrats, right? They're all registered Democrats. Well, they're going to vote for micro. But why are you even? Like, are they going to do that, really? But they also need independent voters to win an election in November. And they also need people to vote, period. What happens when... The other side will come in and say Abdul El-Sayed is some crazy, radical, radical wants to bring communism. I mean, that's the line. Communism and a Muslim man. Oh, that's true. They're using the gender issue. They have the two together and scare the hell out of people. But it will discourage people from going to the election and that makes a big difference. But I think that's why, you know, President Obama weighing in on this is, you know, I believe that he really was seen as someone who could bring together independence and bring along independence and certainly had to win independence in order to win the presidency. He wouldn't have been elected had he not. But, I mean, think about this. So, you know, and this is just one line from the article. But in his 2020 book, El-Sayed said that he criticized Obama and said, you know, he left inspiring intentions unfulfilled. Well, as somebody who served as mayor for 12 years, I certainly left inspiring intentions unfulfilled. That's just how this job goes. And for the president to say, I'm going to reach out to this person anyway, we can say things like that about one another and still find common ground. I do hope inspires people to... try to just shut out the noise and think about what is our goal. And to me, our goal needs to be electing a Congress that is going to serve as some sort of guard against a president who is a grifter, a liar, and has demonstrated he is clearly willing to put our... the men and women who serve our country in our military to put their lives on the line for reasons that, to me, I think, are related to the grift and not to the safety of this country. I do think that the Obama reaching out is also going to affect a certain segment of the Democratic vote in Michigan, which I believe was inclining more, and that was the older black vote. Not a younger wife. Right, right. And so in that sense, it's a very specific target that he can kind of pull over also. Well, I don't know about you all, but my fun meter is on full, so we'll call it a morning. Great panel, as always. My thanks to Kathy Sheehan, Bob Brigham. Mike Spain and Pushy Prasad, thank you so much for being with us.

Great conversation. I appreciate it. Good to be here, Joe. Thank you. We will continue and have another hour of this program right after the short break.