APEX Express – 8.06.26 – Obbligato – In Conversation with Composer Reena Esmail

Express, Asian Pacific Expression. Community and cultural coverage. Music and calendar. New visions and voices. Coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It's time to get on board on board the Apex Express. You're listening to Apex Express on KPFA 94.1 FM. I'm Isabel Lee here for a new edition of Obligato, which explores the AAPI community in the classical music world. Today we're featuring the Indian American composer Rina Esmail and her unique compositions that blend Hindustani music with Western classical styles and how she writes music about religion, spirituality, and even environmentalism. Welcome, Brena, to Apex Express. Hey, it's so great to be here. My first question for you is one that's probably a little bit loaded, but how do you identify and what's your story? I don't know. it's interesting because I work in many different situations and I think I always identify as the thing that isn't whatever the dominant situation is that I work in right so it's like when I'm in America I identify as an Indian American when I'm in India identify as an American when I'm working in Western classical music I'm the person who knows stuff about Hindustani music when I'm working in Hindustani music I'm the person who knows stuff about Western music so really actually I think of identity not as a fixed thing, but as how you delineate yourself, how you're unique in the situation you're in. You know, it's interesting because especially in the case of Asian Americans, Asia is such a broad thing, right? There are so many more East Asians in Western classical music than there are South Asians. Certainly in my generation, you know, I was surrounded by Chinese, Korean, some Japanese people who were always, you know, playing the piano when I was playing the piano. And there really was not many other Indian people. And, you know, I'll actually say that even within Indian You know, if you look at me in America, I'm just Indian. If you look at me in India, I have a very unusual lineage, which is that my dad is from the region of Gujarat and his family is Muslim. My mom is from the region of Goa and her family is Catholic. And because of that, when I was expressing interest in music, my mom was the one who had more of kind of a musical knowledge in her family, even though there's no professional musicians in her family. So because Goa was colonized by Portugal, there is this element of Western classical music in Goan culture. And so because of that, my mom was like, oh, let's give her guitar lessons. Let's give her piano lessons. And so that's how I landed up in Western classical music as opposed to doing Indian classical music.

I kind of went through the Western classical scene. I was very interested in being a pianist. And, you know, I'm glad that I'm a failed pianist in all honesty because I see what my colleagues who are real, you know, professional pianists have to go through. And I just don't think I have what it takes to do that. It's really an intense job. But when I was in high school, one of my theory teachers kind of said, hey, you know, you might be a composer. It seems like you think like a composer thinks. Why don't you... try composing and why don't you try writing things down? And one thing led to another and basically a year and a half to two years after studying, I got one of very few spots in the undergrad program in composition at Juilliard. And that was a point where my parents kind of said, okay, you know, we don't know a lot about the music world, but it seems like if she got it at Juilliard, she's probably like somewhat good at this. Maybe we should kind of see how this goes. And, you know, from there on, I pursued composition. Gotcha. And when and why did you start to study Indian classical music, which is a big element in your compositions now? Yeah, absolutely. So I think it's interesting because in every generation, I've seen so much change in how the diaspora views itself. And certainly when I was growing up, you know, I know this is hard to believe, but there were not, if you were an Indian going to school, you were kind of the only one. If you were an Indian music, you were kind of the only one. So there was this element where when I went to Juilliard, there were, to my knowledge, two Indians in the entire school, me and an actress who had actually come from Calcutta. And so people were trying to make conversation with me and they'd be like, well, you know, do you do stuff with Indian classical music. And I would just be like, no, I'm trying so hard to even write music for orchestra and string quartet and all the things that my peers are trying to do. Like, is that not enough because I'm Indian? I also have to be doing all this other stuff. And so I resisted it for a long time because I was just trying so hard to do one thing well. But then, you know, I think what. what made me kind of unique is that you know I stood out I was Indian and then you know when I was young that felt really cool the older I got the more I thought well you know I know I'm from this culture that has incredible music and I know it when I hear it I know nothing about it and maybe I should actually pursue it and so I really separately kind of started meeting Indian musicians who lived in New York and I would just ask them questions and I got to know them and I realized that while we did share a type of music, we did share a culture. And we did share a love of music because it is interesting that the culture of Indian classical music is actually quite similar to the culture of Western classical music. You know, you study with a teacher over a really long period of time, you're practicing for hours a day, the kind of personality that would love Western classical music would also love Indian classical music. And so I just made friends with some of these Indian classical musicians. And of course, being a composer, I thought, why don't I put them in my music? You know, how do I do that? And so it was really just curiosity that led me down that path.

And for many years, that path was very separate. Because again, I know it's very hard to believe now, but there was a time where people really did not want these cultures to be combined. And people just really look down on cultures that were not, you know, the dominant Western European classical culture. And so I kept them really separate. And even when I started combining them, people were like, oh, that's sweet. She does stuff with Indian music, you know. And it was really not taken seriously. It's only really in the last decade. that people have been embracing other musical cultures and, I mean, how glad I am that that's happening. But it was very, very hard-fought and very separate at first. And on that note, how do you navigate the unique challenges of composing with both these cultures in mind, but also being situated in the United States where it will come from all different backgrounds? And how do you as a composer approach that in this context? I mean, I think it's interesting because, first of all, I am musically bilingual now. So I can, I went to India. I studied Indian classical music seriously. I still work with Indian classical musicians very closely. And so, you know, I can be working on a piece that has Indian classical musicians in it. And I can turn to them and immediately speak in their language and their musical language. And then I can turn to the Western musicians and speak in their musical language. So every single. piece i write especially the ones that involve indian classical musicians there is a way through those pieces both through the Western lens and through the Indian lens. And so I think I'm working in a position where I actually do know how to speak both those languages. And when you do speak both those languages, you know, just the way that if you speak any two, you know, verbal languages, you would know that there are sounds that are cognates. And so you're like, oh, I say that sounds so maybe. And it means one thing in one culture and one thing in another culture, but you know that that sound is the same. And so. With musical language, you can actually use those musical cognates to connect across cultures by saying, just listen for this thing. And when you listen for this thing, interpret it through the lens of your own culture. So that's certainly how I work. But, you know, I mean, again, I want to say that's not the only way to work. I don't think that you have to be, you know, again, there's probably most people who are listening to this probably have one musical culture and then maybe they know much less about the other musical culture. That is also fine. You know, you don't need to. to be an expert in order to want to explore and love a thing. That's just, you know, where I am because it's the center of my musical practice. Well, let's hear a selection from Brina S. Males oratorio, this love between us. This is the second movement titled Seekism. David Hill conducts Juilliard 415 with the Yale Scholar Kuntorum.

conductor david hill with the julyard four fifteen ensemble and yale scola cantorum that was sikism the second movement from the oratorio this love between us by rina esmail who is here in conversation with me to-day on k pf a ninety four point one f m for apex express something that i really found interesting especially your work, and I'm sure this has been asked many times, but this love between us prepares for unity, this oratorio that you wrote, beautiful work where you use words from the seven major religions of India, and each movement of the choral work is also named after a different religion. In what ways did you adhere to or challenge norms of spiritual music because religion and music are so deeply tied together? How did you challenge those norms or how did you express those norms when you wrote this work? You know, I think it's interesting because my own spiritual background is very kind of multi-spiritual, multi-faith. Like I said, my father side of the family is Muslim. My mom's side of the family is Catholic. My husband is Hindu. And, you know, all of them grew up in a very singular practice in each of their religions. But for me, I grew up, you know, around my mom and my dad. And then, you know, my husband later. There's a part of me that takes in the essence of each of these spiritual traditions. And, you know, I'm trying to kind of find what feels true to me in each of those places. And so to me, you know, this love between us is a place where I'm trying to essentially say, yes, we express things differently through... whatever cultural history that language or that religion emerged through. And yet, we're all trying to get at that same numinous thing. And, you know, I mean, I'm not saying, oh, all religions are the same. Definitely not. You know, there's, there's many different ways to practice things. And, you know, your unique way into your spirituality is your own. And that's, that's amazing. But also. we all kind of our cultures form religions for a certain reason and it's because we want to try to understand things that are beyond ourselves. And so that's essentially what the piece is saying. So I know, I'm sure there are purists who are like, you shouldn't be combining these things, but you know, there's always going to be purists who do that. And there's a role for that, but that's not really my role. So, I mean, I picked the pieces and I picked the religion specifically because of the numbers of people who practice that religion currently within India. And so it is like the largest populations, you know.

like Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, all of those things. And then there's one little tiny religion, Zoroastrianism. And while they are not, there's not many of them within India, they are the ones who are practicing Western classical music in India. So people like Zuban Mehta and all, they are Parsis that are Zoroastrian. So I thought, you know, it's important to include them too because it's a piece that involves a lot of Western classical musicians. I'm wondering now as a composer who's working with music of different languages and religions and origins, and also evoking a lot of these spiritual truths that are pretty universal in nature, what is your view on the function of music? There's the platitude that music is a universal language. Do you, how, to what extent do you agree with that? You know, Yeah, it's hard to think of music as a universal language, but I think sometimes we, how can I say this? It's such a broad question. When we are working in a form that isn't completely narrative, it gives us a little more chance to get at things that don't have to follow logically after one another. They're just feelings that we're able to feel. And I like working, even when there are words, you know, there's certainly words in all of these, these, pieces and this love between us but i feel like um sometimes we just feel something within us and you know i i experience this a lot when i um have a piece performed people will come up to me and say like oh this made me feel like this and then the next person will come up to me and say oh this made me feel exactly the opposite thing and i I really love that we can have those experiences. And recently, it's been really interesting because people have been asking these questions, like interviewers, you know, before performances will be like, well, what do you want the audience to feel? And I'm like, oh, I don't want to answer that question. I want you to feel whatever you feel. There's nothing right to feel. And often, I mean, I'm not the one to ask. I'm so close to the music because when I'm listening, I'm thinking like, okay, was that C sharp in tune? Okay. You know, that's what I'm feeling. And I certainly don't want them to feel that. So I don't know. I think it's just exciting to see how when we get out of these, what we should do this and this is the right thing to do and this is the only way to do it. How do we behave? And there are so few spaces left where if we don't say exactly the right words at the right time to the right people, you know, if we don't have exactly the right. right opinions that everyone around us has, we are so condemned. And music might be one of the last places that we're allowed to feel whatever's inside of us. That's really interesting to think about. I think art in general is very beautiful because it allows people to interpret it in many different ways. I think for your music, you really draw on cultural specificity in terms of Hindustani music. What advice would you give to other young composers or also maybe artists of different mediums in putting that balance between specificity and universality? Yeah, I think the thing is that

The way into a deep practice is specificity. You know, I know people have asked me like, oh, you've done stuff with Indian music. Are you going to do stuff with other music? And I'm like, gosh, there's still so much to explore. I could have like three lifetimes and still not explore everything I want to explore just in the relationship between Indian and Western classical music. I mean, goodness knows, I have four degrees in Western classical music. And I still am barely scratching the surface of it. Right. So I kind of feel like specificity is important because it allows you to access depth. And yet, you know, when you are specific about a certain thing, like for instance, like a scholar who only speaks Italian, I mean, they're going to know more than someone who maybe speaks five words of each language, right? So they can transfer over at a higher level and make more sophisticated points and understand the world with a more universal lens if they've gone really deep on one thing. So I would say, you know, to young composers, to young musicians, pick one practice and know it really. really well and deeply become go as far as you possibly can. And then, you know, try to see if you can find relations between your primary practice and a different practice. And I mean, some people, you know, I know in this generation that's coming up that's like teen in their teens and 20s, there are South Asian kids who are here whose parents have come from India that are learning Indian and Western classical music side by side. And I think that's great. I mean, that's awesome. But I would also say make sure you don't just learn halfway both of those things. you know if you're going to learn them if at least with one thing try to go as absolutely far as you can let's hear another example of rena esmail's bilingual musicality with her work maulhar a requiem for water which was recorded fairly recently the vocalist is grace and gardner with the choir conducted by amy fogerson

Composer Rina Esmail used Indian classical instruments in that work titled Malhar, a requiem for water. The vocalist was Grayson Gardner, with the choir conducted by Amy Vogerson. The percussionist was Rohid Panchachshari. I'm Isabel Lee, in conversation with composer Rina Esmail on this edition of Apex Express here on KPFA 94.1. So when you integrate Hindustani classical or Hindustani music, Indian classical music, and those instruments into your scores, did you have to develop a way to translate the notation of those notes in Western classical music notation or vice versa? Yeah, it begs the greater question of what is notation for? Right? Because notation is essentially a way for Western musicians who read notation to look at a thing and be able to associate sounds with that thing. And so when I'm notating for Western classical musicians, I'm saying, okay, what is a cellist typically seeing and what are they doing based on what they're seeing? And then how can I take that language that they know really well, that they play in Bach Suites, that they play in Elgar cello concerto, whatever it is, how can I take that language and just move it, you know, couple degrees outward so that they're able to express different things, right? And so it's very much a psychological thing. You know, it's not a science the way that we think of it as and we learned it as this, oh, you know, eights and 16th and they divide this way. There's a lot you can do just to make someone feel a certain way with notation. On the other hand, if I'm writing for a sitar or a tabla, the question is, what is the role of the notation? Because the role of the notation for a Thubla player who has only Hindustani training and doesn't read music, it's certainly not for the Thubla player that I'm doing the notation. Usually what I'll do is sit down with the Thubla player in a more Hindustani style and say, hey, this is what I want. I want you to have like six Avarathans of Thinthal. It should be at this tempo, blah, blah, blah. And they're like, oh, got it. I see what you want me to do. Right. And so all you need to figure out is the alignment points with. the Western classical musicians. And so then the notation I put in the score is not really for them. It's for a conductor for the Western musicians to be able to understand what they are doing and to be able to cue them in and help them kind of be in dialogue to one another. So it's interesting because I mean, these days now I'm finding that there are Thubla players who are both Indian and Western classical trained and they want a part. But parts are not a thing. When I first wrote this love between us, there were no parts for the tabla and sitar player, I actually had a cue sheet that I would actually point to as they were going so that they knew, you know, what the different cues were because a part, you know, counting rests and steps as it was not going to help them at all. So I think it's mostly trying to understand how is someone perceiving something and how can you give them the information they need in the most seamless way possible so that you can express what you want to express. I love how technical that entire rundown was. I also wanted to talk a bit about your work Terra Infirma, which is pretty recent. I had the honor of attending the premiere of Terra Inferma, harp concerto that you composed based on your experiences with the Los Angeles Fires in the January of 2025. It was such a wonderful work. I personally really loved hearing, while you musically, depicted the progression of a wildfire from despair to hope.

It's also not the first environment-based piece that you've written. You've written, for example, Earth Speaks in 2015. How do you approach composing works that are so rooted in environmentalism and, of course, have the undertones of speaking to the larger climate crisis at hand? The thing that is interesting is, you know, someone was asking me about that piece, you know, you're asking how do you kind of deal with activism in your work? And I was saying, like, you know, I don't. really think of myself as an activist because I think these issues are so fundamental to all of us, right? It's like you turn on your tap and you're just afraid that there's only going to be so long before water stops coming up. That's not, um, It doesn't feel like activism. It just feels like, you know, fear. And it feels like we're tapping into these human emotions where people are so worried about what's going to happen. We don't really know what to do. And I think, you know, with anything, most people who have fear about things, you're going to just clam up if you feel that it's too. too much to deal with. And it is, I mean, the environmental crisis is so huge that I think most people are just clamming up. And I guess, you know, what is our role as musicians? I think it's maybe to have some moments where we're not just like on our phone seeing pictures of things burned down and freaking out where we can actually take some time to just reflect and be with one another. Because if we're going to solve this, it's going to be together and we need to come to some kind of like calm understanding of what is happening. And so a lot of my pieces are not accusation. They're not, you know, pointing a finger. They're not supposed to rile people up. They're supposed to actually depict that experience of what it feels like to really sit with a hard thing for a long time and come to terms with it and then figure out how to move forward. And that's certainly the case with Tara and Fermat. And certainly the case with my Requiem, certainly the case with curiosity, like you were saying it's from Earth Speaks, which is many years ago. And that piece actually talks about the Pasadena institutions. It was actually for an organization called Pasadena Master Corral. They commissioned the work many years ago. And what's so funny is I now like live in Pasadena, I live in Altadine up in the hills. So I wasn't living here at the time, but it is, you know, a place where many scientific institutions like the US Geological Survey, you know, JPS. Caltech, all these places that are really exploring the environment in important ways are based. And so the piece kind of honors that and honors how we can interact positively with our environment. We can get data. We can find ways to do things that are, I mean, beyond my understanding, you have to ask a scientist. But I just love that we're in this place that sees the environment as something to understand more deeply instead of something that's just going to turn on us at a certain point. Certainly. And I'm really curious because Terra and Ferma is also a work that was paired with multimedia animation and performance. Was there anything in your compositional process that differed when you're collaborating across these different mediums?

Yeah, so it's interesting because, so the, there was, there were projections that were happening. And also in addition to that, it was a harp concerto, but a harp concerto where the harpist was also playing percussion. And so there were some elements that were so different than what would be typically, like if harpist was like, I want a concerto, you would just be like, okay, you know, she sits there, she plays these notes. They're in that one position. That's all fine. There was so much more. You're right with this piece than. with my normal pieces. And to me, it's both, how can I say this? There's such a different way I have to think about it, but I think that way starts with collaboration. So Yolanda Kantanous is the incredible heart player and Camilla Tasi, who was the projection designer. These are people I know well and I've had multi-year relationships with. And so when you're thinking about how to build something, you're totally aware of what their work is. Like I knew kind of the, not even what Camilla's projections were going to look like, but the way that they interact with things. We've done projects together before. And so I pretty much had the sense of how she was going to respond. And I knew what she needed to know in order for her to do her work and make things kind of match up with one another. And then also with Yolanda, a lot of the stuff I put in that was like harp and percussion. together it wasn't something that i was making her do right it were things that we came up with together we've spent so long workshopping things in percussion studios and um you know we've met in all these different cities and we're basically like banging things against a harp and doing you know just so much experimentation so for every technique you see in the concerto you um you basically uh there's like 10 things that we didn't do that didn't put in. So you're really only seeing the best of all the kind of crazy stuff that we tried. So I do think the thing is that when you're trying to invent something new and you're trying to invent new styles and new techniques, I mean, you can think of anything, but you're trying to find the things that A, practically work and B, allow the performers and the artists to really express themselves. So I found that I was actually choreographing the piece before I was composing it, that I had to figure out, okay, where are these percussion setups going to be? What are the instruments that I want? Okay, are these chimes going to be like over her head? Or she's going to have to reach really far to get them? Are they going to be near the low end of the harp? Things like that that seems so practical. But the difference between having to reach out far and slowly versus having to like quickly swat something near your ear, right? It makes a different choreography. And so I thought that way first, and then I kind of put the notes and rhythms and, you know, melodies and stuff in. Let's now hear a selection from Rina Esmail's Terra in Ferma. This is the fourth movement titled Roaming the Ghost Forest. Yelana Khananasis is the harpist with the interlocking center for the arts orchestra.

the harpist was yolanda condanasis with the interlock and center for the arts orchestra playing the fourth movement of terra infirma by composer rena esmail i am isabali and in this episode of apex express i am joined by rena esmail the composer in conversation about her music and her approach to making art Something else that I really was fascinated with on your Instagram account, you actually made a post a while back that I found to be very powerful. It's pinned as the letter to the young artists, immigrants, parents. It's such an empathetic message that I also really relate to as a daughter of immigrants in the arts. And you kind of argue that... that these children's pursuit of the arts is a tribute to their parents' immigrant struggles. What motivated you to write this letter? You know, I'm so glad you asked about that because so much has changed since I wrote that letter in a really good way. You know, first of all, I will say that when I wrote that letter, if you weren't a child of, you know, like Asian immigrant parents, you and actually, I think this is true for most immigrant parents who, you know, have kind of given up everything to... move to America so that their kids can explore all these opportunities they wouldn't get in their country of origin. When I first wrote this letter, it was really just, I felt like I was saying something really new. And now I think what's really interesting is that we have both parents who understand this and kind of a almost this parody way of seeing what Asian parents are like, right? For me, one thing that I, that just makes my heart sing is the comedy of Zarna Garg. I don't know if you know who she is, but she is like an Indian American comic. And she plays this role of being like this very typical Indian parent. And I will say, my parents weren't really like this because again, they were two different religions and married one another. So they were already quite open minded. But like 99% of Indian parents and even my parents sometimes they they have this thing of like oh why are you going into this like you should make money you should do this stuff and and i feel like um since zarnagarg's comedy came into the world it's such an easy way to just point a finger at that and say hey this is what we're really dealing with as indian immigrants and you know we all just laugh at it and i find that you know sometimes my friends who are just you know white americans who have been in this family has been in this country for many generations they don't get it but like anyone who's a child of immigrants is like, oh, yes, I completely understand what she's saying. So we have that. And I think that's really healthy and awesome. And she's very talented. And on the other hand, I found that when I was first going into music, and I mean, I, you know, when I was 18 and I was going to go to Juilliard, my parents were certainly supportive and curious and wanted me to do whatever they thought. I might be good at enough to make a living and didn't want to optimize for, oh, you need to earn the most money or you need to, et cetera. But most other Indians around us were like, oh my God, she's so smart. Why is she like wasting her life doing music? You know, that was kind of the dominant narrative. And so I had to become very good at explaining why. And imagine my.

my complete disbelief when I would go to conservatory and meet people whose parents had encouraged them to do music. I was like, what is happening? Like, we're like, there'd be four siblings and all of them would be in the arts. And I was like, oh, wait, you're not the black sheep of your family? Like, I mean, half of my family I don't think really knows what I do still, right? And so to me, it was so important to provide some kind of context. And like you said, it's like to come to this country and be an immigrant, and to come with a lot of skills, but to have to just work in silence for so many years with no congratulations, with no one just constantly propping you up. That is what being an artist is. And, you know, it's only maybe the past 10 years of my career that I've even been visible to people. Before that, it was just me doing my thing, and like, no one cared about it. It was not glamorous at all. And for me, that's what built the kind of strength in me to be able to sustain the career that I have now. And so I think if it had been a little too easy, I don't know that I would be able to handle what I have now. So I think what's great though is that the Indian parents of kids who are teenagers and in their 20s nowadays are not coming to me being like, oh my God, what do I do with this kid wants to be a musician? I've failed as a parent, which again, for those of you who are not Asian, this is totally a true thing out there. They will come to me and say, hey, look, my child doesn't, wants to be a musician. I want to help them. I can't tell like, are they good at this? Where should they be? Can you help me understand things? And that is really what my parents did. I will, you know, kind of go further to say, PBS did a special on me a number of years ago. And I insisted on putting my parents in this special because I wanted people to see what it looked like to have really encouraging Indian parents who, again, they weren't going in blind. They would go to my teachers and be like, well, I mean, is she good? Can she do this? We don't know what these answers are. Can you help us understand? And they really relied on the right people to be able to help me get to places that they couldn't get. But they also weren't just. immediately dismissive of it. And that's what allowed me to kind of have a massive advantage because I didn't have to also go back to school and do a medical degree or like most of my peers of my age actually did. So I wanted to put them on that special to actually show that that is possible. And I'm seeing more and more that it is there are many more parents like that now. And oh my goodness, I love every one of them. That's wonderful. When you look back at your compositional career and how everything has changed since then, how do you think your work has evolved? Oh, so you mean since I began being a composer? Yeah, or maybe in the past 10 years even. Yeah, it's interesting because I think one of the big inflection points in my work was when I did my full right in India. So before that, I really didn't know very much about Indian classical music. And then the year before that, I really started to get deeper and started to integrate my Indian and Western classical worlds with one another. And then, you know, from 2011 to 2012, I went to India. And what was so different was actually seeing the music in its culture and actually getting to participate.

as an Indian in India studying Indian classical music, right? Because there's no filter. You're not going through a Western filter. You're just there in this culture. And I know that many of my Indian teachers, they kind of had this attitude of like, look, we don't know what kind of music you were doing before, but we're so glad you're here and studying your own music. And this is great. And so there wasn't this sense of having to go through another culture to get to their music. And to me, that really changed things because I don't see myself as writing music that's one through the conduit of the other. I just see it as two streams that are equally incredible and equally independent, and they just meet each other in these interesting places. Yeah, and looking ahead into the future, is there an ensemble or an artist who you haven't worked with before that you'd love to work with? Ooh. It's interesting because like almost everyone who comes to mind is not a musician. I've worked with so many, I mean, truly, I've been so lucky to work with, you know, musicians like Gillen Orly Shaham, Yolanda Kondonazas, I'm writing a piece for Hillary Hahn and Matthias Gunna right now. It's, I mean, just like literally anyone who I could ever ask to work with, I have. And, um, I don't know. I mean, to me, it's like, gosh, someone like, Misty Copeland would be amazing. Like, you know, there are so many actors, like the world of Indian South Asians in comedy and in drama and stuff like that is just incredible. People like Mindy Kaling who have done incredible things. To me, people like that are just going outside of just music would be fascinating to me. Absolutely. And I will put a link to your website as well as the links to the music that will also be aired in this episode on KPFA.org so our listeners can learn more about you and your wonderful work. Well, Rina, thank you so much for your time and thank you for talking to me today. Absolutely. Once again, that was composer Rina S-Mail here on Apex Express tonight. Please check our website, KPFA.org, to find out more about her and her music. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world. Your voices are important. Apex Express is produced by Miko Lee, Jalina Keen Lee, Preeti Mungala Shekker, Manu Javier, Suati Ryasam, and Cheryl Trong. Tonight's show was produced by me, Isabelle Lee. Thank you to the team at KPFA for their support. Have a great evening. Thank you.

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