The Great Salt Lake 'Deal,' Tradwife Debate, Family Obstacle Course

M Today on CityCast Salt Lake, what lengths should our state go to to save the Great Salt Lake? Something murky is on the table. We discuss it. Plus, it is time to put the word tradwife to rest, says Nara Smith and some picks for your weekend. And then we've got a special segment just for our members. We share some of the coolest science research coming out of Utah these days. I'm host to Allie Byer, I'm here with CityCast Salt Lake contributor, Cassie Bingham. Hello, Allie. It's good to have you back. It's been a minute. Yeah, thank you. And CityCast Salt Lake contributor, Chandler Rosenberg is here. Hi, what's up, guys? Good to see you. All right, let's get into it. This headline from the Salt Lake Tribune, Utah wants help saving the Great Salt Lake in exchange for hosting a federal nuclear hub. Before we get into the nuclear of it all, because I feel like there are some things to like be explained here. If you moved to Utah yesterday, one just quickly to say, our governor really, really wants our state to be a leader in nuclear energy. We can talk more about that. The second is our namesake, the Great Salt Lake, is shrinking. And this is very concerning for a number of reasons. One, ecosystem collapse. Two, the lake bed is toxic because it's a terminal lake. Water goes in. It doesn't come out. Recent polling found that almost 70% of Salt Lake County residents are concerned about the lake. So the lake has had a good publicist in you, Chandler Rosenberg, four years now. But Chan, I mean, you are the managing director of Great Salt Lake Rising. The lake is how we came to know you on this show. I remember one of of our earliest episodes we brought you on and said, explain this crisis to us. Yeah. What do you make of this headline? I mean, it really, I think the headline is way overblows what's happening here. If you read the article, like there's nothing in any of this agreement, the discussion around nuclear that's actually related to support for the Great Salt Lake beyond a statement from the governor's office. Thank you. Because that was also, I read this article with Cassie, maybe you had a similar experience. I read this article and was like, I'm control effing Great Salt Lake. Yeah.

No, there's nothing. I went through the MOU. I did a broader Google search. That's just a talking point that they have glommed on to. And again, I'm not going to say, I know the state is working to get some federal support for Great Salt Lake. We could talk more about that if you want. But yeah, in my mind, I'm like, oh, sexy talking point. These two are actually totally unrelated. The state's going after nuclear, no matter what, they just realized people like the Great Salt Lake and that's going to soften the blow. 100%. I feel like from a social science perspective, just like reading that article looking at the headlines, it felt like some version of like lesser evilism, right? Where they're like trying to almost create this. frame that is actually a fallacy that in order to get help for the lake, you have to be okay with this. And whether it's like founded in reality or not, it's going to frame the way people feel and what behaviors they engage in to advocate regardless. Right. And so I think my conspiratorial brain makes me think like they're trying to almost manipulate people to feel like they can take a step back from advocacy if this is instead the exchange. This seems like it's entirely manufactured at the state level to seem like a tradeoff. I don't get the impression the federal government is thinking about the lake as part of this at all. They just put out this RFP. Do you want to store nuclear waste for us? And a dozen states said, yes, please. And five were selected in Utah was one of them. This is just like a crafty idea from the Utah Office of Energy Development. to tie it to the lake, but I think has nothing to do with the actual negotiations. Not to say they couldn't like bring it up later or while they're talking to the federal government about this, you know, they could say the words Great Salt Lake, but like. Formally, nothing. I mean, are there asks on the table of the federal government right now in the like activist and nonprofit circles and also political circles that are working to save the lake? Yes. So my bosses just got back from D.C. with some state officials and legislators and they talked to the Utah delegation who all have different ideas about. how much money they want to ask for, what they want that to look like. So that's concerning. It's just like, okay, they need to start talking to each other in D.C. and getting clear on a federal ask. But I mean, long story short, we're not getting a billion in one year. It will be a series of allocations, you know, over over a year, over decades. A billion dollars, that is, not acre fee. Yeah, whether it's. new appropriations, whether it's reallocating budgets from programs that exist already, we're not quite sure yet. It seems like politically everybody wants to look like they're saving the lake, but that the job of being tasked with saving the lake is the job no one actually wants.

I just feel like we've watched so many legislators be like, the lake is my bag, the lake is my bag, and then like inevitably back away from it. Or, I mean. Well, as soon as you actually get into the bag, you're like, oh, this is actually really complicated and hard to understand and slow moving. And it's hard to like continue with these sexy talking points. We're going to do it. It's like, well, how? And to explain that is just very complicated. So, yeah. I think that's what I mean by like this. like the messaging creating a certain frame, right, to make it feel like we're making sacrifices or make it feel like we're striking deals. But in reality, like the approach to saving the Great Salt Lake has to be systemic. It has to be structural. And there are extreme nuances across multiple sectors that have to be dealt with to be able to engage in this. And so any type of frame that is like, well, we'll exchange X for Y. is like overly simplistic for an issue like this. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, and on the note of messaging, I mean, this is fundamentally a headline about nuclear energy. I'm curious, I mean, we all know someone who knows someone who's related to a downwinder, who's probably still collecting Rika money from like our state and the southwest legacy of everything from mining uranium to nuclear reactors. Like, How do you feel about the state going full steam ahead on this nuclear notion? Yeah. I feel skeptical more from like a... social, like, demographical protection, like, area. Like, I don't know enough about nuclear energy. And I feel like the messaging is mixed where you'll hear, you know, that it's just, like, waiting for, like, the biggest crisis to happen. Or no, it's like, this is our saving grace. Like, this is how we get away from, you know, worse fossil fuels and everything. So I feel like that's hard for me always to understand those nuances. But I don't think Utah has a great track record when it comes to environmental racism. And we can see that, I mean, many of the downwinders in southern Utah are Navajo Nation people, right? And in terms of like uranium mining and all of that. And so my question is like whether we're talking about class and like lower classes, whether we're talking about race, color, ethnicity, right? Like I wonder what are the actual protections in place for Utahans when it comes to like the regulations and policy around us? being a state where inevitably we're going to be trafficking like radioactive hazard if we do this. That's right. Yeah. We should just say, by the way, nuclear energy, here's how it works, the dumb down version, is that the nuclear plants split uranium atoms. And so that process is fission. And basically, it releases heat. The heat boils water into steam. The steam spins a turbine. Turbine spits a generator. We get electricity. It's kind of the same as coal, except there's no combustion, right? So it's fission versus combustion. And that's what makes it.

quote-unquote green energy. But yeah, I mean, I think it's interesting that you bring up Cassie, like the... the messaging piece of all of this, because even when we talk about nuclear in our state, it's almost entirely messaging at this point. We've yet to have a small modular reactor ready to work in a Utah community. It could be a farce. We don't know yet. We don't have it, right? Maybe in 10 years. We're making deals based on something that doesn't even exist yet. We're opening up bears ears to mineral leasing, uranium leasing, when we don't have these reactors yet. is going to invest more than a million dollars in a PR campaign to convince Utahans that nuclear is now safe. Already have. Have you guys seen the billboards? It's happening. The candles. Yeah. So we're warming up for something that doesn't exist yet, which feels like that's also what we're doing by trying to make this about the lake. I mean, it's also ties back to the Stratos project and the other data center proposals in Utah that are. proposing to use like almost double the energy that we have in the state. And so I think it's this whole game where it's like, okay, we'll be the first to do these nuclear reactors, which will enable us to be the first to house these giant data centers. Like I think the jewel in Millard County is the jewel data center would be from what they claim. using more energy 11 gigawatts than any data center in the world, which I don't think they could actually do. But still, it's just these kind of pipe dreams that. Yeah. Yeah, I'm skeptical. These are big ideas. They don't exist yet. What does exist right now is a shrinking grades all week. That's the only part of this story that exists already. Facts. Facts.

CityCast Sally contributor Cassie Bingham and Citigast Sally contributor Chandler Rosenberg. I'm excited to talk to you both about this Nara Smith headline where in case you missed it, she went on call her daddy the podcast, the podcast the TV show, and basically said, I'm not a trad wife. Stop calling me a trad wife. And kind of went point by point all the reasons that she believed she's not a trad wife. And it really struck a chord per reporting, really good reporting in the griot. I'm wondering if this struck a chord with either of you. You both grew up in the LDS church. Does this land? Do we need to put the word tradwife to rest? I'll say it. It actually did land for me. I saw a clip online of her being like, I'm not a tradwife. And she goes through the definition and kind of refutes each point and is like, I'm working. Who else is making food in this couture, you know, couture gown? I was kind of moved by her like the emotion of it all, like her defensiveness. I think the the tradwife debate. often painted against the girl boss. You know, you've got the girl bosses versus the trad wives. Like, do we need to be these career hustlers or should you be staying in the home? I think it presents us with the false choice that really kind of hides like the systemic failures beneath it. And so I'm ready to put it to bed and maybe talk about what's really going on, which is it's expensive to live in America. It's expensive to raise children in America. And we are just being very critical of the choices women make to try and afford to do that if they want to do that. I feel like. Yes, and like I feel like obviously this is a gender discussion where you have like sociological labels that get it. assigned to men that do get talked about to an extent like in cell or something. There's a lot of talk about it, but it's not necessarily like criticize, hyper-criticized and pitted against other like archetypes the way that something like Trad Wife and Girl Boss are. I agree with that. On the other hand, I think there's like one of the bigger conversations, which is maybe a reason not to put the term to bed because I think Trad Wife is. Having that term and having the aesthetic of Tradwife kind of emerge into the mainstream consciousness, I think has like surfaced conversations that needed, right? That like needed to be surfaced. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting. Gender, about women's roles, quote unquote, right? And I think that's really valuable. I think anytime something comes into like the lexicon of the mainstream, there's like a good thing there. Yeah, you're totally right. I think the word like aesthetics too. To me, this kind of, you could zoom out and it's like a conversation because I think what people are so upset by is the performance of tradwifery where it's like you're pretending to be the stay at home wife that's cooking from scratch and whatever, but really you have all this money and you're not actually doing the work. And it's like, okay, well, let's talk about performance in general on social media and like the damage of that and the damage of people just following influencers in general. Like I think that's kind of the.

the deeper layer here too. Well, and I love talking about this on a Salt Lake City podcast because here in Utah, we're like the microcosm of this phenomenon, right? Like we have Mormon women who come from a like a religious, I think I could speak to this, you know, from having been Mormon myself. Like we come from a religious heritage that teaches like very stark and rigid gender roles and then also teaches things on top of those like. modesty, not just in, you know, dress, but also in like behavior demeanor, um, talking about how it's good to be like nurturing, tender, soft as a woman and also how you're supposed to kind of like, uh, reject worldliness, right? And reject these things yet Utah is like one of. if not the number one behind like L.A. County, I think, for like Botox and, you know, breast augmentation. Are we above? Yeah. Yeah. So it's like I'm not positive. It's very similar to what you were just describing, right? But it's like the religious archetype versus like what the religious women in Utah actually do. Like what Mormon identified women actually do versus what they're kind of like the aesthetic they're supposed to show. And there's like obviously friction between that. I'm curious, like, if Nara Smith was not married to someone who grew up LDS in Utah, I actually don't know if she and her husband are still practicing in the church. I think that he's more active than she is, but I think they're like loose, looser than, you know, your average. If they weren't Mormon, if they were not considered members of this church or connected to the church, would she be considered a tradwife? Or would she be considered, like, an ingenious influencer cook. Like I don't, I guess like I haven't followed her very closely, but every time I see a reel, to me, she just looked, it looks like I'm in the. the test kitchen. It looks like I'm in the... Like what if another runway model, a Kendall Jenner, a Haley Bieber starts cooking, are we going to call them a Tradwife too? She doesn't have an apron on, does she? I think sometimes. Part of the discourse I heard was that her early content that got her big, she was like adopting the aesthetic of Tradwife more often. She was wearing an apron. She spoke in like a very... A lot of the discourse I saw was about her voice change. Right? She's spoken like a very soft voice versus how she spoke, which made me think of like a lot of Utahans, Mormon or otherwise will probably recognize like the Relief Society voice, right? And like there's a lot of... There's an incredibly successful, like, visible women in Utah who are LDS, right? And, like, I would say you probably see a difference in, like, how they almost code switch, right? Between, and so I think there's some things like that where people, and this is such a, like, internet.

chronic online argument that I don't necessarily agree with, but saying like, oh, you used this identity to get big. So now you're trying to shed it as soon as it like is no longer serving you. Some people said the rise of yesteryear is the reason why she no longer wants to be associated with the term. I think back to Nara's tone, I'm thinking about like the performance of ease, like something that always annoyed me about her content, was that she's like, Lucky asked for a roast beef sandwich at 11 p.m. So I stayed up all night making this sourdough from scratch. Like she walks through how she's making everything from scratch at like three in the morning. And it's just like, that's not practical. That's like you must have nothing to do tomorrow. But just I think the tone is this, yeah, performance of ease. Like this is, you know, anyone can do this if you have your life together. And we've obviously talked about the problems there. Yeah. Well, and I think that right there kind of shows also this like almost dichotomy that's emerged in how people understand Tradwife. There's Tradwife that kind of harkens back to this like pioneer like old frontier age, right? Where it's like that's almost verging on like Mennonite or like Amish. And then you have like contemporary trad wife that I think is more about class and gender, traditional gender roles, but not necessarily about old-timey things, which is like the man should be providing monetarily. And the woman should be living a life of ease outside of homemaking. Right? And that's not necessarily mean you have to be like a pioneer. You can still be dressed in like. contemporary clothing and stuff. But your husband takes care of the finances. You are over the home and you should be like living a life of ease because of his, you know, monetary production. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting to hear her in this interview be defensive about the role that her husband plays in their household. Like I thought it was interesting when she specifically said he does most of the cleaning. And that, reading that, I was like, I don't care. Like, I just, there is a level at which I'm like, if you present something to me online, I just assume that what I'm getting is produced, filtered, acted, hyped up. Like, we are, we are barreling towards a world where my avatar interacts with other avatars online. And there's actually very little of me present in that interaction. And so I'm just like, I, you do not owe me an explanation of how much your husband is cleaning in your home. It's like, I don't, but I guess that I also understand how because she's become emblematic, because she's, you know, people see online figures as almost mentors that maybe. We've demanded this, but I don't, it's the same way that I kind of feel about how I don't care about our elected officials' personal lives. Like, if you can govern well, keep doing it. Like, I don't care about your divorce, not one bit, you know. So.

There is something uncomfortable also about watching her have to explain her husband's behavior because I also just think that women shouldn't have to explain their husbands to people. Like everyone should be responsible. Nobody's asking Joe Rogan to explain what his wife does at home. Or just that we have to explain anything to anybody online. I mean, I think that's the question is like when you say. You know, you don't care about politicians, personal lives as long as they can govern well. Like, what's the parallel for Nara Smith? Like, what is she supposed to be doing well? You know? And I think it's just like, what is an influencer? What is social media? And what are we looking to them for and expecting of them? What do they owe us? What do you want from her? And should you seek it elsewhere? And if you're mad at her for something, maybe think about. the systemic issue underneath that and get mad at the government. Or hit unfollow. Or go outside. Get some steps. That's the vicious feedback loop, right? Yeah.

CityCast Saltly contributor Cassie Bingham and Chandler Rosenberg. Let's do Pick of the Week. It's our proverbial Friday here at Citicast because we've got a special episode for you tomorrow. But normally we do Pick of the Week on Friday. Cassie, you lead us out. What's your pick of the week? My pick of the week is Clubhouse, SLC, specifically Clubhouse's figure drawing. I've been going with my friend CJ on Monday nights. Clubhouse is just like a beautiful venue. It's like I think over 100 years old. So it's just like a romantic place to be. You can sit at like a drawing horse or they have like stools, they have tables, all sorts of stuff. There's nude models who are paid to be there. And they do like segments of like one minute or three minutes or five minutes or 20 minutes. And then between poses, you can get up and look at everybody else's drawings. And it doesn't feel like. weird or condescending or like exclusive at all. There's people of like all ranges and everybody's like being so appreciative of each other's expression. Yeah, it's really, really fun. Oh, I love that. Is it BYO pencil and paper? Yeah. BYU drawing kit. But you can bring anything. Some people paint. Some people do pastel. Some people draw. Beautiful. Cool. Chandler, what's your pick of the week? All right. So it's cooled down. But in the summer heat, I'm watching TV sometimes in the middle of the day on the weekend and came across the Elizabeth Smart documentary on Netflix. I think it's called Kidnapped. It came out in January, but I hadn't seen it or heard about it. And I'm a huge Elizabeth smart head. Just I feel like it's a collective trauma that those of us who grew up here went through and we like haven't collectively addressed. You have to briefly explain who she is because we might have listeners who. Oh, okay. So Elizabeth Smart was a child. I actually think she was a teenager when she was kidnapped from Federal Heights neighborhood in Salt Lake City out of her bedroom and taken basically up into the mountains near her house and was kind of camped out there, abused for a year. She was 14. Let's see. She was kidnapped. Yeah, it was less than a year. I think it was like June to March. And it was just hugely publicized across the world, really. But she was found safe in March of, I forget what year this is, but I know it's like March 12th or 13th. Because I think we should have a holiday Liberation Day. Yeah. Anyways, she's a local hero. They made like a Hallmark movie style movie about the whole story that I saw when I was a kid and it terrified me. I had to go back to sleeping with my parents. But this documentary, she's in a lot of it. I'm glad this was a universal experience. I slept on my parents' floor for like a year. Yes. No, we need to talk about it. It like really affected my childhood. But the documentary, she's in a large part of it and she is so cool. Like she is. Such a badass, so strong. I mean, she doesn't talk about this in the dock, but she's since become a bodybuilder. That's right. There's an Elizabeth Smart Foundation that supports, I think, victims of domestic abuse, domestic violence. And she just, like, her attitude about the whole thing is just like, yep, that's horrific, but I'm going to, you know, power through, help people. Like, she doesn't have the, I don't know, I was just really inspired by her. And so I think everyone should watch the documentary. Yeah, that's a great idea. I like that. It's great.

Okay, very different. I've got a family-friendly suggestion. So I thought this was super cool. Brighton Resort does this thing called The Majestic Scramble. And it is coming up here on August 22nd. It starts at 9 a.m. But you can register now, which I think you should do because I'm guessing it fills up. This is a family-friendly. alpine obstacle. They call it an adventure because it's not timed. You can take as long as you want to do it. For kids and families, they recommend age seven and up. I think this is so cool. It only costs 30 bucks to enter. You take the majestic lift up, which where it will certainly be cool and beautiful right now. And then there's this whole alpine like obstacle course that the resort has created. So you're crawling, you're balancing, you're ducking, you're running, you're walking. And it's a 2K long course. And you can take the whole day if you want to get through it. You can allow your children to get as distracted as they please for a cool $30 and be up in the mountains. How fun. That sounds so fun. I want to do it. So fun. So yeah, if you go to Brighton Resort.com, you'll see their events tab. You'll see it listed there. It's the Majestic Scramble. And I would pull some kids together. Or you know what? If you want to be an absolute hero, call your friends or siblings and offer to bring their kids and give them a morning off and take the whole lot up to the majestic scramble. So nice. Okay. Now it is time for something very special. If you are in our membership program, we have a special segment just for you. We are talking about some of the coolest science coming out of our state right now because groundbreaking things are happening at our universities. And I think you will be surprised and delighted to hear many of them. This is a bonus topic. It's just for our paid members. And the reason that we're doing that is because we could not make this show every day without our membership program. So we want to offer the folks who support our work at $10 a month or $100 a year, something special. If you are not a member, if you're not interested in becoming a member, this is the end of the episode, which is okay. We've loved our time with you. If you are, you can go to membership.citycast.fm and sign up. Right now, we're sweetening the deal. So if you become a Citicast-Salt Lake neighbor, that's what we call our members, right now, you get to pick from a mug, a tote, or a pennon, all specially and thoughtfully designed by us. 10 bucks a month, that's what we're asking for, or $100 a year. Think about it. Membership.citycast.fm, we would love to have you and shower you in perks.

CityCast Salt Lake contributor Cassie Bingham and Citicast Salt Lake contributor Chandler Rosenberg. Thank you for your time. Thanks, Ali. See you guys. Listeners, we are taking tomorrow off for a little summer Friday, not going to lie, but we've got a special show for you from our friends at your city could be better. This is Citicast National podcast. And it is going to be an advice show, my favorite, about how to handle various city etiquette conundrums, featuring a few hosts of other Citicast shows. So enjoy that. It's going to be wonderful, especially if you're, you know, getting on the road this weekend. And that is all for us today here on CityCast Salt Lake. Our executive producers, Emily Means. Our producers are Ivana Martinez and Matild Ophalino. Our newsletter editor is Thetina Ria. Our audience development manager is Angie Treasure. I'm your host, Allie Vioreta. Music is by the local band, mitochondria, with additional music from all the kimonos, Arc de Soleil, Wendy Marceny, Sven Lindval, Bagel, and Measlo. See you on Monday morning. Have a great weekend.