We Continue Our Drumbeat Coverage of the Violent Situation in Haiti

Thanks. From Pacifica Radio in San Francisco, this is FlashPoint. I'm Dennis Bernstein with Miguel Gavila Molina. Today on the show, we continue our drumbeat coverage of the violent situation in Haiti as a result of a U.S. destabilization policy that has been going on for decades, hundreds of thousands of Haitians on edge now, and on the run in the U.S. facing deportation by the Trump posse known as ICE. Also, Professor Ron Lopez Chicano and Latino Studies at Sonoma State University joins us to talk about the teaching students at risk for harassment and actual deportation. And we'll talk some retail politics with Roots Action co-founder Norm Solomon. Will Dems go left or right? Abdul El-Sayed? or Representative Heli Stevens tonight. All this and more coming up straight down on FlashPoint. Stay tuned.

And you're listening to FlashPoint on Pacific Radio. If you didn't get my rhyme there, I'm sure you know that major politics in Michigan, and we're going to be talking about that later on in the broadcast with Norm Solomon. I have been thinking lately as we've been doing tremendous amount of coverage on Haiti and Haitians in the United States. I'm remembering... One of the high points of my life was walking through the streets of Port-au-Prince with President D'Aristide, Jean-Berchant Aristide, and seeing the extraordinary love. He didn't need a protection team. He didn't need a security team. We were out in the streets by the thousands in Port-au-Prince, a beloved leader. One more example. of the United States government destabilizing a peoples who had fought everything for years, for decades, to have their own say, their own democracy, their own free speech structure of a country. But the United States couldn't stand it. And now the suffering and the situation has gotten much worse, and we're going to keep talking about it. We're not going to let you forget. Joining us is co-founder of Haiti Action Committee here in Berkeley and the Bay Area, and we're happy to have Robert Roth with us again doing some extraordinary work to keep us posted. Robert, it's good to have you back. Maybe you can... you know, go over the situation as it stands now. Some people know, and we've been reporting, but I think it's important for people to understand what the situation is now and how bad this can get. Right. Well, thank you, Dennis, and thanks for the drumbeat coverage of Haiti that you've done for years now. And, you know, we are. We're in one of those critical moments where education and activism are more important than ever. And so to be able to continue to, you know, to focus on Haiti, you know, which is representative of a lot of other struggles in the world as well is really important. In terms of updating the situation, starting on July 27th, 350,000 Haitians who've been here on temporary protected status, TPS, lost their work permits as a prelude to what we believe will be mass deportations of Haitians and 6,100 Syrians who also lost their work permits. And in terms of Haitians, many of these folks have been here for close to 30 years, having come in the wake. of the horrific earthquake in 2010 that killed over 300,000 people and left over 2 million without shelter. And others have come more recently in the wake of hurricanes, another earthquake, and the escalating violence in the society committed by paramilitary death squads, as well as the Haitian government.

And these 350,000 Haitians, there are neighbors, there are home health care providers, there are our friends, our families, they own small businesses, and they've brought economic revival to one community after another. And now they're in the crosshairs of ice, and we know what that means. Like it means a violent hunt for Haitians throughout the country. And over the next months, we'll see that, you know, and we're, of course, going to, like, build resistance to that. And it's one more evidence that the administration is committed to ethnic cleansing, which is really what this is, to getting rid of as many people of color as they can, as many black people as they can, as they try to make their white supremacist dreams a reality. And, you know, I wanted to just give you like two examples of how cruel and in humane this policy has been. And we know it will only get worse in the coming period in Springfield, Ohio, which, as you remember, was the target of Trump and JD Vance during the 2024 campaign when they vilified Haitians for supposedly eating the pets of their neighbors. And, you know, and since that time, Haitians have been threatened, you know, really been targeted in Ohio as well as other places, but in specific in Springfield. And Haitians have been defended by their neighbors, by their employers, by people who know and love them in Springfield. So there's been a lot of resistance. in Springfield. And what we just found out is that Haitians who have been on TPS and also were here on Biden's so-called humanitarian parole program, they've been receiving calls to report to immigration offices in Ohio. And when they do, most of them have been fitted with ankle bracelets as they leave with no explanation. And so they're already fearful and threatened. Haitians have like been calling out this practice as like another cruel attempt to humiliate them, to terrorize them, and to criminalize them. And so we have to see that as part of an overall pattern of the Trump administration, criminalizing migrants, criminalizing refugees, criminalizing people of color in the society. And in another instance, a 56-year-old Haitian asylum seeker died in March from severe throat and chest infections. which were caused by complications from listen, an untreated tooth infection, while he was in U.S. immigration and customs enforcement custody in Arizona. And he and his family had been pleading for weeks for medical care, and he never received it. And yesterday, we know that a Salvadoran refugee, who's 41 years old, Edwin Lopez Cornell,

into a place which has been turned into a hell on earth. And that's because Haitians are different than American citizens. I mean, Trump said that Haitians here are poisoning the blood supply of the U.S., right? And this again, you know, we have to see this. This is the kind of language that the Nazis use. And we're in a situation where that kind of mentality is driving policy. towards Haitians and towards so many other refugees. So we're in a serious crisis and we have to respond. That is so... Extraordinary. We're speaking with Robert Roth. We're a Haiti action here in the Bay Area. Robert, maybe I want to talk more about, get more into what's happening on the ground in Haiti as well. But there is an action and there's going to be an interfaith public memorial. tomorrow in the context of Haiti. You want to tell us just a little bit about that? Maybe people want to be a part of that. That's for people in the Bay Area. Yeah, please. Yes, yes. Well, it's going to be tomorrow at 11 a.m. There is a memorial at the ICE headquarters on 630, Sandsham Street, San Francisco. It's going to be a vigil. And then there's a planned procession to 333 Bush Street, which is the headquarters for both Senators Alex Padilla and Senator Schiff, to really continue the pressure on them to raise their voices as the situation worsens. to take a very public stand in support of Haitian refugees, Syrian refugees, and all refugees who are in the targets of ICE. And, you know, over the last number of weeks, like Senator Perdilla signed on to support a bill in the Senate that has, you know, that it would extend TPS for three years, but Schiff had not. And after hundreds of calls came to his office, we heard today that he's also signed on for that bill, which is just, you know, like to really emphasize that the pressure that we can exert on the grassroots level is key in this situation, whether it's to get senators to sign on to a bill to extend TPS, whether it's to really push as deportations rev up. to push for resistance, both obviously at the grassroots level but also in Congress and in other government agencies locally here in the Bay Area. So we have that kind of power if we use it and if we see this time as critical for us to exercise it.

Again, we're speaking with Robert Roth of Haiti action. Bob, I want to talk to you about the situation on the ground in Haiti. I mentioned in the opening that I had a chance to walk the streets with President Arista. He didn't need protection. It was an extraordinary moment in which it looked like the Haitian people were finally going to have their right to self-determination. That was a beautiful time. Do you remember that time? And how does that compare to what it... is like now on the ground in Haiti. Well, you know, I do remember that time. And, you know, I was in Haiti, along with Pierre Levosier. and a number of other internationals were in Haiti when President Aristide and his wife and colleague, Mildred Aristide, returned from their forced exile in South Africa in 2011. And we experienced the exact same thing that you're talking about, Dennis. Thousands and thousands of people following their car as it went from the airport. to where they were living, the compound in which they're in which they're now living. And when we got there, thousands of people climbed over the walls of the compound, stayed in the courtyard for hours and hours and hours. And rather than it be threatening, you know, because there were literally thousands of people, including people on the roofs, right? I was scared. Chanting for hours and hours, like it was welcomed by the Aristides because these were supporters. And the situation in Haiti right now is a direct result of the 2004 coup against the Aristide government, which was the most progressive in Haiti's history, right? Taxing the rich, building more schools than it ever been built in the entire history of the country. devoting massive funds to health care, leading an initiative to educate folks about AIDS, you know, like just, you know, beginning to like really help foster domestic agriculture. You know, the beginnings of a fundamental change in Haitian society that was welcomed by the overwhelming majority of Haiti's people. And yes, it's over 20 years later, but those kind of events have a deep, deep impact on a society. And Haiti's never recovered. The paramilitaries that are now, the paramilitary death squads that are now operating in Haiti were empowered. by the series of illegitimate governments that were put in charge of Haiti by the U.S. following that coup in 2004. And these governments, one after the other, empowered a series of gangs, using them to terrorize opposition neighborhoods, protect their business interests, and facilitate drug trafficking. And now these death squads have ballooned and have turned life into a living hell in Haiti.

And so the conditions that Haitians being deported to Haiti will face, like include that in the last year alone, approximately 8,100 people have been killed in Haiti. And this is in a country of only 11 to 12 million. Armed groups are operating with near total impunity, wreaking havoc on civil society. There have been one massacre after another in late March, the Grand Grief Death Squad, which is part of a coordination of death squads called Vivant Somme. massacred over 80 people in the Art of a Neat region, which is the breadbasket of Haiti, and has long been Haiti's agricultural center. Roads throughout the country, you can't travel in Haiti safely. You know, people are being kidnapped, you know, demanding, like being taxed on the roads by these paramilitaries. They can't access markets, and close to about 1.5 million people have become internal refugees. And even in early July, and this is in the midst of the Trump administration pushing. for the deportation of all of these TPS holders. In early July, another Vivantam massacre took place in the Kentskopf area, which is in the hills above quarter prints, where well over 60 people were killed and thousands of people had to flee their homes. And, you know, one of the other, like, I want to just give two other things about the conditions there. Please go right ahead. Like, and this is like according to UN statistics, some 5.7 million Haitians are facing what they call high levels of food insecurity, meaning close to starvation. And that includes 1.2 million children under the age of five. And again, this is in a country of 11 to 12 million people. 1.2 million, 1.2 million out of 12 million people. That's right. 1.2 million children. Children, that's what I'm sorry. Out of 12 million people, yes, I'm sorry. 5.7 million Haitians are considered food insecure. Okay. And the other thing that is rampant in Haiti is sexual violence. And these paramilitary death squads, when they enter a community or when they enter the shelters where internal refugees are staying, inevitably they commit.

acts of gender-based violence. And between April and June, there have been reported more than 3,000 incidents of gender-based violence. And that brings the total to 5,500 in the first half of the year, and nearly 70% of the cases in the last six months involved rape. So, you know, these are statistics, they're numbers, but imagine, imagine what the situation is, and imagine the depravity of this government here, to be like, you know, sending Haitians back into this situation, a situation that they've caused. You know, what we say is that they burn the building. And now, you know, and now they're sending people back into the burning buildings that they, you know, that they destroy. So this is, you know, this is the situation. It's why we consider this to be like a massive human rights crisis and something that no matter what other work we're doing. you know, whether it's around immigration, you know, whether it's around fighting to end the prison system here, whatever it is that we're doing, whether it's Cuba solidarity, which is so needed right now because of what's going on throughout the Caribbean, we all have to as well connect with the struggle for Haitians. There's one other point I want you to make. Now, Haitians are facing a brutal situation with ICE. The deportations, we, as we said earlier, we were going to be reporting on another death in an ice jail on the East Coast. Haitian, I believe. Not sure. We're confirming that. Haiti, we purged the country, we empowered the death squads in Haiti, we undermine this beautiful vision of President Aristide, and we forced by the thousands and tens of thousands, we forced Haitians out of their own country, and many ended up in the United States. What kind of people? Were they here? What kinds of contributions did Haitians make in the United States that they're now being punished for by being deported? Haitians really played a role in this culture, huh? Well, absolutely. And just like even to talk about Ohio, for example, which has been in the Trump administration's crosshairs, right? The governor of Ohio, who's a Republican. has come out against the ending of TPS because of the impact that Haitians have had on the economy in Ohio, where like, for example, in Springfield, Ohio, they're part of the revival of the economy running small businesses, and they're the backbone of the home health care industry, not just in Ohio, but around the country.

And you know what that means, home health care. Home health care, like for many of us, we've had either parents or friends, right, who have needed that especially late stage of life kind of care. And the care is difficult. It means cleaning bedpans. It means helping people with their mobility. It means being there for the elderly in many, many different situations. Haitians, one third of the 350,000 Haitians who were being faced with now with deportation have been involved in some way or another in the health industry. So these are folks who have built lives here in the States. Many of them came decades ago and have children who have never been to Haiti. And now they're being faced with the choice of when they're deported, do they bring their children with them or do they leave them here? You know, so this is cruelty on steroids. This is one of the, you know, like in my experience of working around Haiti for well over 30 years, this is one of the most difficult moments that we've ever faced in terms of solidarity with Haiti. And, you know, the only solution, obviously the people who are here deserve to stay here, they deserve a path to citizenship, as do all of these folks who are now on TPS and being threatened with, you know, with deportation. And the only way to resolve these issues is for Haiti to be a place that people can live in. not a place dominated by the United States, you know, and a small elite which has robbed from the Haitian people for centuries, basically, you know, there has to be the kind of thing that you're talking about of what you experienced in Haiti with President Aristide, with the Lavalas movement, with the changes that were in the works there. That's going to be what resolves this. and what allows Haitians instead of having to flee from a country that they love to be able to stay in a country that they love. You know, I can't ever forget that fact re the U.S. kidnapping of President Aristide in 2004. And I believe the troops occupied and then stayed in the hospital. And the hospital that the arisdeeds created was destroyed. Well, they took it over. I mean, they took it or they kicked out the medical students and they took it over as a military staging area. I was there on June 30th when the UN, you know, when the UN occupation formally began. And, you know, there were soldiers like wearing blue helmets, like thousands of them enforcing the coup. you know, like making sure, you know, attacking opposition neighborhoods, committing massacres, making it impossible for people to demonstrate in the streets. You know, their love for their, for the president that had been taken away from them and their determination to continue having a just society. So this has been going on for a long time. What the U.S. is now doing,

is they're preparing for another more substantial foreign occupation than the one that's even taking place. They envision thousands and thousands of foreign troops under their control, although not sending U.S. ground troops because they're busy in many other places in the world, as we know, but orchestrating another expanded foreign occupation of Haiti. that will ensure that fake elections can be held and that a more permanent right-wing government can take control and basically stabilize in their terms a U.S. neocolony, you know, with sweatshops, with control over the land. with, you know, being a military base for possible, you know, attacks against Cuba. All of those things is what they want out of Haiti. And their strategy is well underway. You know, now one of the things we know about Haiti is that there is always resistance. And that's taking place as we speak, whether it's community self-defense, whether it's women organizers who are... who are supporting the thousands of victims of gang rape, you know, with both medical services and psychological help. And we know that, you know, like we look at what the Aristides had built since their back, which is a teaching hospital and a university that is serving thousands of Haitian students in spite of the conditions that exist now. So we can see in all of that. a microcosm of what could be a new and vital and just Haitian society. But in order for that to happen, the U.S. has got to get out of the way. It has got to stop, you know, controlling Haiti like it's attempting to control all of the Caribbean. And Haiti is a warning signal of what they want to happen in Cuba, of what they're trying to do in Venezuela, and what they're trying to do throughout the Caribbean. So we think that solidarity with Haiti is critical to solidarity within the Caribbean as a whole. Beautiful. Okay, we're going to have to leave it right there, Robert Roth, Haiti Action. If people want to know more about the organization, if they want to get involved, what's the best way to reach out? Okay, there are two ways. Well, one is for Haiti Action Committee, www.hati solidarity.net, and to contribute to, like, to contribute or to help support the refugees who are now being forced to leave or the internal refugees within Haiti, please contact us at Haiti Emergency Relief Fund, which is www. Haiti Emergency Relief.org. And there is no paid staff for that. All of the funds go straight to grassroots activists in Haiti. Thank you. Thank you, Robert. We'll talk to you soon. Thank you, Dennis. Appreciate the information. You're welcome. Thank you so much, Dennis.

Absolutely welcome. You're listening to Flashpoints on Pacific Radio. This is why this radio station and this network is here to give a voice to those resisting, those facing the guns, oftentimes US guns. We're going to take a short break when we come back. We're going to have a conversation with Professor Ron Lopez. I think our own Miguel Governor Malina is also going to join it too. We're going to talk about... Well, more about ICE and about attacks and about fears of students who could end up, you know, on their way to class getting deported back to wherever, maybe wherever they've never been before. Anyway, we'll be back. And you're listening to FlashPoint on Pacific Radio. My name is Dennis Perensian. I'm now joined by our own Miguel Gavila Malina, and I believe if all goes well, Professor Ron Lopez, who is faculty staff for the Chicano Studies Sonoma State University. Ron Lopez, Professor Chicano and Latino Studies member of the faculty and staff. Sorry about that little stumble there. Good to have you with us. Ron Gavilan, welcome back. Professor Lopez, can I... Can I ask you to sort of just give us a sweeping view of somebody who's looking very closely at all the levels of the racism that's sort of part of the Trump regime, you know, the deportations, the attacks on brown people coast to coast. Just generally your thoughts and how maybe you're thinking about preparing. for next semester and how to deal with your students who are going to be facing these kinds of challenges. Yeah, well, that's a, it's a big question, and it's a big challenge for those of us who work, especially in environments with a lot of students of color. Sonoma State University is not one of the universities that has a large student of color population. But we do have, well, we do have something like 40% Latino. I'm thinking more of place to work in Oakland, and I had a much larger. a more diverse student body. Sonoma state tends to be white and then Latino in about equal numbers and then the remainder being the other. But I think this is a problem and the fear generally, I'm thinking largely of how this affects employment and how Latinos and people that present as Latinos will feel anxiety about being in public.

And in particular, because I was in thinking about this, I looked up some numbers. And so employment in agriculture, construction, the service sector, and hotel and tourism is all down, it's all been affected in terms of the impact on the immigrant population, which makes up, you know, in the case of agriculture broadly in California. 40% to 42% of all our cultural workers are undocumented. And then in the U.S. in California, about 32% are U.S. born. And only about 20% are legal, 26% are legally authorized immigrants. So that affects that, but also school attendance overall is down. And this we saw in places like. where there were surges, we would see a decline in school attendance, and that's primarily for K through 12, because people were fearful of taking their children to school. And also, and this is a surprising one that I thought that I looked up, and it turns out to be, I was right to look it up, church attendance is down among the Latino population. And so there's actually some churches are suing ICE for violating religious freedom. because ICE has actually gone into churches and on the church grounds to round people up. And in some of the churches that have sought to present themselves as sanctuary churches, some of us remember the sanctuary movement of the 1980s. And one of the things then was that churches were considered off limits to immigration enforcement. But that's not the case right now. So there have been cases where... immigration officers have gone in and you know pick people up so we're seeing this very widespread retreat of people that present as immigrants or who believe they might be detained and harassed retreating from public life retreating from employment and this is actually having an impact on various economic sectors, declines. If you pay attention to the internet and pay attention to social media, there's been a lot of images and of people, for example, raids on construction sites. One that went around was roofers. There's been several cases where roofers were stopped and detained. We also have the case of Lorenzo Salgado, Rao, who was killed in Houston in early July while he was driving to a work site. And this is just something that, you know, for those people that want to protect their, you know, protect their lives, it's a very fearful time. And I believe people are right to be.

fearful and to feel cautious. And at the same time, people have to feed their families. People have to pay their rent. So how this is going to affect the culture broadly, the broader American culture. Because if you have, for example, child care, it's likely that the child care are immigrants. If you have elder care in the Bay Area, a lot of elder care professionals are Canadian and Asian, as well as Latino and members of other races. So there's real concerns about the impacts on the broader economy. But that also means that people, our neighbors and our friends and our family members are feeling a lot of fear and anxiety about, you know, are we safe living in our own community? Listening to flashpoints on Pacific Radio, I'm going to bring in Miguel Gavala Malina in one moment, but I just, Ron, would it be, would you be surprised stories about, you know, the work crew takes lunch, but they never make it back to work because they're intercepted by ICE and they end up in the twilight zone? Is this a problem now? This is at least there are people talking about this. The question is how widespread is it and how well documented it is. So it's sort of like the war in Iran. Right now, the U.S. government is reporting that a handful of U.S. soldiers have been killed and maybe 100 have been wounded, whereas other reports, international reports, are saying over 1,000 U.S. military deaths. The U.S. government right now may not be especially interested in reporting all these things accurately. So, you know, we get smattering, we get internet reports. There have been several studies coming out of colleges and universities and institutions. Forbes has done something. Brookings has done something. And they're all basically saying that there's an impact. on the economy because that's what you know those types of institutions are are focused on so no it wouldn't it does not surprise me the question is how do we obtain accurate information that's one thing to say well you know that we heard this But in the absence of numbers, challenging to say this is happening at this rate or... Right. Absolutely. Well, that research is in demand. Dennis Burrinsstein here also joining us is Miguel Gavala Malina. Gavilan, join us. Say a little to Ron, the professor. Absolutely. Thank you, Professor Ron Lopez, for joining us. Thank you for having me. One question that I have, Ron, and that is that...

You know, we've seen ICE in the last year and a half, particularly in Southern California, actually go to daycare centers, actually go to, like, you know, great schools. And there's big confrontations between, you know, the principals, the teachers, and ICE. Have you heard anything? Has that happened at the, you know, college level, at the university level where ICE, you know, is coming on the properties? Or is there a certain... you know off limits you know because we've seen what the administration is done it's attacked universities it's attacked its you know administrations it's presidents Has that happened up at Sonoma State University? Or have you heard that? It hasn't happened. It has not happened yet at Sonoma. University, you know, people affiliated with universities and schools I know have been affected off campus. But I haven't heard any specific information. So I don't want to, you know. say that something's happened that we don't have evidence of. But again, it's like we have to, I think the public as a whole, we all need to work together, to gather information, share information, because one thing that we're seeing right now is a failure of the government to produce accurate data. And at the same time, you know, we can, we can easily extrapolate from, you know, Instagram and TikTok posting that things are happening more often than they are. The question is, you know, let's, and I was just started to look. into this, how much information do we have? We do know, for example, that at Delaney Hall in New Jersey and at other detention centers, we're hearing a lot of reports about... detainees not being given their medications either consistently or at all, people being denied. 41-year-old Edwin Lopez-Conejo died a few days ago in New Jersey because he was denied his medication. He had, you know, numerous health issues. And, you know, if we're going to, if we take just for the moment, the position that to detain someone who is not legally in the country and with the idea of enforcing a law that they, you know, if we just, just for the moment, take that as an acceptable principle.

Should the government or the organization, the company who's responsible for detaining that person, not also be responsible for keeping that person alive and healthy? And what we're seeing is an absolute lack of commitment to maintaining the health of detainees. And I think... If I could just... I'm sorry to interrupt again, but let me just jump in. As you're talking about New Jersey, there is a protest ongoing because there was a nice killing. I believe it was yesterday or last night. We're going to have a special report on that tomorrow. Sorry to interrupt. Also, there was... There were protests in Maine because of the killing of... of what was his name uh johan sebastian guerrero he was he was killed and also there was a man named juan hydo coronia duran who was 28 years old a mexican who was here in the united states on a tourist visa and he was so fearful when he was approached by ice he ran into the street and was struck by a truck This is a man who was legally in the country who had formal U.S. government permission to be here, but was, you know, basically frightened into a roadway because he's being chased or pursued. by masked men who don't identify themselves. And this is another dimension of this, is that the current administration has created this army, this, you know, paramilitary force that is going around detaining people and putting people, you know, putting people into detention. But they're not identifying themselves. They're not using proper warrants. It's just they're sweeping people up. And this violates at least the principle that was part of the founding of this country that people should not be detained without proper procedure. You know, they went during the colonial era, you know, part of the reason for the revolution or part of the justifications of the revolution was that the British military would detain people or seize houses or seize property without any process. And this is why, you know, part of the reason why the Constitution implements due process rules, that there has to be a reason why someone is detained. And we're seeing all of that being swept away. And that's a real problem. Let me jump in here because we're running out of time for the segment. I'm sorry it wasn't long enough, but Ron, what about...

the way you teach. Does the political situation impact you or the way other teachers will teach, or people perhaps who are afraid, whose families might be in jeopardy? Does this affect the way you think about your job? I'm a U.S. born, and all my parents were U.S. born, and all my grandparents were U.S. born. So there's that. I have had people tell me, some of my colleagues tell me, I'm here on a work visa. I can't speak up about things that are happening. I can't say anything about that. And I've had people tell me, I'm glad that you're saying something about it because I cannot. say anything about it. But the truth is, even those of us who are U.S. born and who don't, quote, unquote, look like we're deportable, are still subject to harassment and doxing, and people have been suspended from their jobs. A professor from San Jose Sanghi Akil was actually fired and has been reinstated. She's now suing the university. But this, you know, the firings, dismissals, failure to promote, failure to rehire non-permanent faculty. This is an ongoing thing for people who are speaking out on any number of issues. And right now we're living in a period of a Neil McCarthyite. era of repression, and I think people have a very reasonable fear of persecution if they act out of turn or speak out of turn, because we are in fact living in a period of fascist repression. Absolutely. All right. Well, Gavilan and I always appreciate a visit from you, Ron. And we want to stay in touch. We want to know how the situation, the current environment, the kinds of fears people have, is impacting on teaching on the way young people are learning. You're a wonderful voice in that direction. And we will be back to bother you real soon. Thank you so much. You're absolutely welcome. You're listening to FlashPoints on Pacific Radio. Dennis is here with Miguel Gabelan Malina. We're going to take a short break, and we're going to come back and talk a little retail politics with Norman Solomon. There's something happening in Michigan. What it is ain't exactly clear. Stay close. We'll be right back.

I don't know. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Dennis Bernstein here with Miguel Gavala Molina. You're listening to FlashPoint on Pacifica Radio. We are delighted to welcome back to these airwaves, our good friend Norman Solomon, columnist, co-founder of many organizations. And Roots Action is one of them. Norman, welcome back to FlashPoint. I know you've been writing about... what's going on in the Middle East, and you've been confronting, let's just get right to it. Tell us about Section 219 and one that's got your attention. What is Section 219 of what? Well, it's of a National Defense Authorization Act, and one of the aspects of battle is whether, of course, to continue to send weapons to Israel billions of dollars worth for the continuing genocide that Israel is inflicting. And while there's been some progress in that way in Congress, the cutoff has not happened. But a lot of the pro-Israel lobby... is seeing that the tide is turning on Capitol Hill. So they, in consult with Benjamin Netanyahu, the Prime Minister of Israel, come up with what is now called Section 219 in the House and 1217 in the Senate, that basically says we're going to further integrate the Pentagon with the Israeli military so that even if weapons shipments per se are cut off, The plan is, hey, we're all working together anyway, and we'll become more and more part of the same military operation. It did pass the house. It has not passed the Senate and will be a battle in the next few weeks over whether that's going to happen. It's part of the broader context, which is that because of people's organizing, as always, this is never because people in power decide to make a good change from the top down. It's because people have been organizing and agitating from the grassroots. Listening to FlashPoint on Pacific Radio, we're speaking with Norman Solomon. Okay, there is a primary in Michigan tonight, representative Haley Stevens versus Abdul El-Sayed. Saad is clearly progressive and clearly represents really the future of what...

you know, a kind of vision of what many of us would love to see happen. But I, what I'm seeing here, Norman, is the rage. You know, they're referring to, he, I've heard him referred at least four times far, far left, the far left, you know, are, you know, they're going to try and in Thanksgiving again. These are, these are sort of the Democrats who were saying, we kind of. The most important thing we can do now, Norman, is like stay in the center, not alienate everybody and move forward. You've heard a lot of this, haven't you? Oh, it's overwhelming now in a lot of media outlets, and you could say that hell hath no fury like corporate militarist Democrats scorned. Who's scorning them? It's the voters. It's voters who, in New York City, elected three Democratic Socialists through the primary in Blue Districts. It happened in Colorado, Denver, just a few weeks ago. Another Democratic Socialist. on the way to congress in a deep blue district it looks like in hours the results will come in in michigan where Abdul El-Sayed is expected to win to defeat we say Haley Stevens really to defeat apak has put in dozens of dozens of millions of dollars to defeat Abdul El-Sayed in the democratic primary it looks like he's going to win and this is because again people have been organizing inside and outside the electoral arena Sometimes people make the mistake, oh, we're going to choose between grassroots progress, grassroots protest, and on the other hand, electoral work. That's like saying we're going to walk on one leg. These are organizing venues and fields of struggle that work together, and we're seeing the results in victories for socialist and other anti-war progressive candidates across this country within Democratic primaries. I mean, the Democrats here these days are the ones that lost to Trump twice. How could you lose to Trump once? Well, you can lose to Trump once and then twice because a failure exists to work with and validate and respond to even the polling from the grassroots, you know, just for one example. The polling was clear in August of 2024 that Democrats far more wanting to send weapons to Israel. Most Democrats wanted to cut off weapons to Israel, and yet Kamala Harris and Biden administration just had their fingers in their ears, so to speak. And this has happened again. That's how you lose when you diss the base. 6.8 million voters for Biden in 2020, did not vote for Harris in 2024. And that's a result of absolutely ignoring the views of people who...

you need for turnout and we hear it every time this is going to be a turnout election and it's true every time and when people choose not to vote for the democratic ticket that's how republicans win listening to flashpoints on pacific radio uh kabilan are you still with us okay i think we lost him uh okay um norman uh Could you talk a little bit more about sort of the relationship between Israel? U.S. politics, you know, who the Democrats are and who they have become based on their either silence or out-of-control support for a genocide. I mean, they can't fill enough boats and planes and whatever to get the equipment that they're still shipping over there to kill Palestinians. These are Democrats are part of this, you know. For decades, the Republican and Democratic parties have been wholly least, if not owned, subsidiaries of APAC and the pro-Israel lobby. And that has changed only in the last few years, again, not because of some light bulb going on on Capitol Hill, but because voters and activists have made their fervent opinions know that they're sick of U.S. support. for genocide and so just a couple of weeks ago when there was a vote on cutting off weapons to Israel in the House of Representatives, a grand total of one Republican voted for a cutoff and 103 Democrats voted for cutoff. And this is freaking out APEC and its allies. It's freaking out the Israeli government because this is not what they signed up for. This is not what they're accustomed to, but this is what grassroots organizing is creating. Wow. All right. Norman Solomon, appreciate the information, the analysis. And any recommendations in terms of what you think people should be doing now in terms of elections and affecting policy? Your thoughts on that? Yeah, very much. very much tuning into not only these primary races, but also what's happening in November, because there are going to be battles between very strong progresses and right-wing Republicans. And I do want to invite people, please go to root'saction.org. We have a million members signed up getting action alerts. You can be a million to one. That's root'saction.org. And in terms of background, my free book is at bluerode. info. It's the site for... how the Democrats allowed, enabled Trump to become president twice. It's called the Blue Road to Trump Hell. And again, that is at blue road.com. And it's free. Beautiful. Thanks, Norman. Thanks for the time. We appreciate it. Thank you, Dennis. All right. And you are listening to Flashpoints on Pacifica Radio. It's your daily investigative news magazine. And if all goes well, we will see you tomorrow at 5 Pacific. Stay tuned.

And that does it for another episode of FlashPoints. Our executive producer is Dennis Bernstein. Senior producers, Miguel Gavalon Malina and Kevin Pina. Technical producer, Rod Akil. Our theme music written and produced by Charlie Lang. For questions and comments, email Dennis Bernstein at Dennis at kpFA.org. Thank you for listening. The stakes are high as the U.S. speeds toward midterm elections. KPFA brings you the latest on election suppression. Insurgent and pro-Palestine candidates challenging the democratic establishment. Ballot measures to tax billionaires, regulate dark money, and more. Join KPFA's Election Watch program, The Stakes, airing every Thursday at 10 a.m. and online anytime at kpFA.org and wherever you get your podcasts. You can touch that dial if you miss being told what to think. This is 94.1, KPFA, 89.3, KPFB in Berkeley, 88.1 KFCF in Fresno, and online everywhere at KPFA.org.