1059 - Spreadsheet Vultures feat. Katherine Krueger (8/3/26)

Okay, and we're off to the races. Greetings, friends. It's Monday, August 3rd, and this is your Chapo. Once again, no Felix today, so joining me once again by overwhelming popular demand. Oh, well. It's Felix Fill in. Senior Felix fill in correspondent, Catherine Krieger. I'm blushing. I'm blushing. That's so sweet. The people love you. It's very hard to book me. It's hard to get me over here. So, you know, this, we really moved heaven to earth to make this happen. Well, I've got to, I mean, I think I'm going to switch things up to do a little housekeeping at the beginning of today's episode, because Chris is not here to remind me. And I would just like to remind all of you and remember myself. that we have an upcoming live show in November. It'll be us, some of our friends, some bold names, a musical guest. That's it. It's in November. Tickets still available at the Society for Ethical Culture in New York City. So if you're in New York City this fall, please come check out our East Coast. 10th anniversary show that will in many ways commemorate our first, one of our first live shows, election night, 2026. Yeah, you're helping the vibes are just as good. Have you announced any of the bold names? Not yet. Okay. We're going to be dripping out shortly, though. Okay. All right. Stay tuned for that. Second point that you should be aware of. Chunks. Chunks. Chunks. Chunks. Chunks. Chunks. Chunks is available now video on demand at patreon.com slash Chunks TV. And if you haven't checked it out yet, I would highly recommend that you do so. It's very fun and funny. They're all kind of inadvertently about mortality as well as observed. Yeah, exactly. If you've been thinking about death and would like a laugh about it, check out chunks, chunks, chunks. And, uh... Also, I realize we should probably be doing this more on the free shows, but I'd just like to remind you particularly if you're a newer listener, or maybe you'd like to put someone onto the show, that you can subscribe to us on Patreon to get every episode of the show. Wait, you guys have a Patreon? Yeah. So this episode, if you're listening to, is for free, but there's actually even more content available if you subscribe to our wonderful Patreon, which will give you access to every chop-o show ever recorded. A lot of forbidden riffs way behind the paywall. That's true. Various slurs, death threats, things of that. If you really want to become a complete esc, go all the way back. Yeah, and if you're looking to, like, you know, nail us to the wall over something problematic we've said, that's all in the archives. Yeah, you've got to be paying five bucks a month for that. And in particular, I'd like say, like it has all of our mini series as well. And, you know, for the Felix heads out there, if you're starting to get a little, feel a little itch, you want Felix back. He will be back later this week. But I should also let you know that if you're, if you're, if you're, if you feel like you haven't gotten enough Felix lately, the new Felix mini series is in the can.

You remember the Metal Gear Solid one he did. But let me like the, I think you've already guessed what genre, what sort of video game series he's doing next. And let me just tell you, there are hours of this recorded. I believe the first episode is like five hours long. That's so crazy. That's Joe Rogan. So yeah, new Felix miniseries coming soon. And also Hess and I are beginning to record a new series season of movie mindset this week. It's that time again. And just a little preview for the fans out there. No more foreign films. No more black and white movies. This is all certified five baggers. Movies for the boys. Yeah. Well, no. These movies for everyone. Yeah. These are movies you've probably seen before. Give me a hint about one of the movies. Um. Barry Lyndon. That's not a hint. Story for the listeners. Will, in one of our very early dates, took me to see Barry Lyndon, and I had not looked up the runtime. Normally Catherine likes to look up all the spoilers. I like to know what I'm in for, especially if it's scary, and by that I mean about men. And when intermission started, I was hopping mad. I was like beside myself. Yeah, no. Catherine didn't know that it's one of the... One of the rare treats. You know, when you see a movie and there's an intermission card. Oh, boy. And I was like, I'd never seen it before in the theater. When you're already having a really good time and you get hit with the intermission card, you're, oh, boy. I, uh, I'd never seen it before in theaters. I think we were seeing it in a metrograph. Yeah. And I was over the moon. I was loving every second of it. All of the sort of rye, very dry and ironic voiceover narration. As soon as the intermission card is, likeability. Yeah. I just turned over to Catherine and I'm beaming and I just look at her and she's just like... You could just feel the bad vibe just rolling off of me. I think actually though, if we watch it again, I think you would like it. I think I would. I think I would. And I would be down to watch it again knowing what I'm in for. Certainly not as bad as our first day movie, which was seeing the Mongolian mining industry documentary about the various ghost towns that they're building. In, yeah, in Mongolia. In Mongolia, yeah. So, yeah, I know, I'll give you, Hesse and I, we're, it's out of sequence, but we are recording the Steven Spielberg episode. Nice. This, this Friday. Are you going to talk about Disclosure Day? I'll probably, you know, I'll mention my dislike for that movie. Yeah. Before we're talking about two Steven Spielberg movies that I adore, which is Jurassic Park, R.I.P. Sam Meal. I'm sure it'll be a nice tribute for him in that episode. And Lincoln. Oh, that's great. So we're going to do, like, sort of the two different poles. I've actually never seen Lincoln still. So let's watch that. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, one are about, you know, sort of ancient monsters. And the others are about dinosaurs, folks. Hey, oh. All right. Before we get into, I'd like to do a sort of... Even in the absence of Felix, I'd like to do a sort of update on how the war is going. But before I do that, I'd actually like to address something that directly relates to the last episode that we recorded. Yes. Listeners, you might remember, I did sort of open it up to suggestions. Carry an hour. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. You listen to Volta talk. For suggestions on what to do about these pesky giant birds. We put out the call and your obliging listeners answered.

Look, I know there's a lot of animals. I know a lot of listeners very well. There's a lot of animal heads. Yep. We had that woman who sent us wet-all seal noises sourced directly from Antarctica. That's so cool. That was awesome. So I knew there was going to be some pretty, pretty good suggestions here. So I'd like to shout out a few listeners here. The first up writes in. Hey Chappo, longtime listener, resident ornithologist, MS in molecular ecology and ornithological research, CEO of observing, professional wildlife biologists that specializes in raptors, songbirds, and mammals. As an aside, I love that when your listeners not only have jobs, but like really interesting jobs. I just never expected, no offense. A bird handler through volunteer work. Soulsborn lifer since 2009. And I work in an environmental consulting. Grew up in Georgia, lived in Wyoming, and now California. Love the show and would love to talk to you all someday. Mr. Meniker's Vulture Problem. You could get, this is an interesting suggestion. You could get a speaker like a JBL's pill or something, drop it close to their dwelling and play a loop of different raptor species. Temperator vocalization is loud as fuck. That could drive out the vultures enough to condemn them from their neat lifestyle. It might take a few tries to get the whole thing cleaned up, but once the structural renovation works darks happening, they should leave it alone. Fun fact, vultures shit on their feet for sanitization and for cooling themselves off. I'll follow up with this through listening. Best of luck. Birdman Dan, Daniel Jay Jones, Wildlife Biologist. Wow. I think that's a very, like, that's a very professional. And, like, that guy's a real ornithologist. I thought he was going to suggest, like, you know, what they did at, like, Gitmo or Abu Ghrae where they, like, play, like, Toby Keith, you know, just, like, play, like, or, like, play metal, just, like, annoy them with bad music. Well, no, I mean. But the bad music to them is. Catherine, if you play metal, that'll attract more vultures. Yeah, true. Yeah. They are black metal birds. You know, they love it. Yeah. The next one is, next email I'm going to read here, it says, Dear Chapo, this is specifically meant for Will and Catherine, mostly in response to the things they discussed on episode 1058. I've been a listener for the last 10 years or so. I live in Iowa and travel around quite a bit for work, taking soil samples on farms and ranches. I was in Missouri earlier this year and learned of black vultures after seeing one in a field. They are nasty, terrible-looking things, and they actually attack in large numbers and kill livestock like calves, lambs, etc. Jesus Christ. So farmers shoot them. Missouri has public service radio announcements warning people not to shoot them, and especially not to shoot the innocent turkey vultures as they are not to blame for the crimes of the black vultures. Seems like there's some. Oh, oh, you know they're killing anything that moves, yeah. Some racism going on here. Anyway, I learned that the official way they are supposed to deal with black vultures is by creating fake black vulture carcasses and hanging them in effigy in their fields, pastures near their barns, and that is what keeps these vultures. stringing up fake carcasses. Okay, this is interesting to me because I had assumed that the vultures in the barn were turkey vultures. That's what I've known was always in Massachusetts, but you remember the video I took that I referenced the other day, those vultures are all black. Could these be black vultures? I think these might be black vultures. So does that be more allowed to kill them? I don't know for, I think you're probably still not allowed to kill them, but now I'm a little bit more concerned for my niece. Yeah, seriously. They're so big. They're so big. But one more thing of,

You'll like this, Catherine. Also, my name is Chance Youngling. An Americanized version of Yingling. My family went on vacation to Hawaii when I was young, and everywhere we showed up, people were expecting my family to be Chinese. Thank you. Everyone thought we were Chinese because of the last name, Jungling, just to validate Catherine a little bit. I love to be validated. Thank you for that. Someone also wrote to me on Twitter that there are dozens of us, so thank you for that as well. And finally, this one is Erin from Wisconsin. Yep. Your neck of the woods. We put this one at the top of the news. is just a very quick practical advice here. For vulture issues, I would contact your local animal and plant health inspection service office. It's a branch of the USDA. They should have an office in each state. They deal with wildlife damage and issues like this linked here. Thank you, Aaron, for that very practical, sensible suggestion. But I'm not sure these offices have people in them anymore. Yeah. Well, Massachusetts might. Yeah, you're right. They might fund it at the same level. Unfortunately, going to rank this suggestion while the most practical last in terms of theatrics. I really love the idea of creating fake carcasses and like hanging them from the tree. Yeah, sure. I'll be creating fake carcasses of vultures and hanging them in attitude. No, I don't actually want to kill them. Yeah, they're incredible. I just don't want them there. Yeah. Shitting and pissing and dying. Well, that is a great segue. To the war news for today. Maltors galore there. Before I get into, like, the story of a note that I would like to talk about that I think really puts a fine point on the question of how's the war with Iran going? I just like to, like, as I often do, just read two missives posted on truth social by the president over the weekend. Or the first one is from, this one is from this weekend. The USA is locked and loaded and ready to go against the Islamic Republic of Iran at levels of military terror, strength, and power not seen since World War II. Despite this, we have just been asked by Iran and other Middle Eastern countries to hold off any attack in that the perimeter of a deal has been agreed to. This would include the immediate, complete, and total opening of the Hormuz Strait and an end to Iran's nuclear threat. For the future benefit of the world and likewise the survival of a successful and prosperous around to cancel the attack subject to being able to rapidly make a deal. The country of Israel joins me in this commitment. Get to work, everybody, and get it done. Thank you for your attention to this matter. President Donald J. Trump. I love what he says thank you for your attention to this matter. Also, I'm just picturing like, you know, like when a document goes through like hell in a workplace. And the document title is called like, deal. Final, final, actually, V6. You know, like, this has been through the ringer. What version of the deal are we on? Well, there is no fucking deal. Infinite deal. That's the thing. Like, Iran has made very clear that they are currently negotiating with Oman and only the government of Oman on how to manage the Strait of Hormuz. Well, yeah, the notion of a deal is crazy because Iran has all of the leverage. So, like, you know, you can't really force them to the table unless, you know. Well, I like that, you know, it's like a typical, like, we're to destroy their civilization.

He said, we're going to unleash levels of military terror strength and power and not seen as World War II. But actually, Iran and a few other countries asked us not to do that. So we want to get, what a deal. Okay, so that was from the weekend. This is today. Iranian leadership is unbelievably duplicitous. They ask for a meeting. Some would say, beg, talks to begin, with more scheduled in the immediate future. And they say openly and proudly that they are not having any discussions, that nothing is being talked about, and they're only dealing with Oman. Oman in quotation marks. I'm not a sure. That's really funny. With quote unquote Oman. I've never even heard of this Oman. Yeah. Then they will go on to give their usual blather and saying the Strait of Hormuz will be operated powerfully by them when it is already completely controlled by the United States Navy and our blockade. Wait, so is it open or is it closed? Or as some say, the United States wall of steel. I love what he does that. He's like trying out a new socket. It's like not think anyone has ever said. Just testing it out. Yeah, it's like. A lot of people are calling me T-Bone. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, in the tweet, in the post from the truth social post from the weekend, he's like, they want a deal. We're working on opening the straight and four moves. And then, like, Monday, he's like, it's totally open and we're in control of all of it. So he goes on to say, the United States, yeah, the United States wall of steel, nothing gets through to Iran unless we want it to. And nothing will get through unless a deal or total surrender is accomplished. He's just blithashing like, we need a deal so much or filling that total surrender. Yeah, it's like, why do you need a deal if we've won and we control the straight? I mean, like, you know, this is. We've been through this thing so many times since this is where I started. It's the same pattern over and over again. But like now we get to the heart of the matter here that I like the news article that I think really puts a fine point once again. Oh, I got to ask just because you brought up true social, by the way, is Chapo going to pay $100,000 a month for access to truth API? Absolutely. Yeah, okay. I have the ability to manipulate markets. Yeah, definitely. You know, I need those true. I need those truths before the rest of the market gets it. Oh, crazy. All right. So I just, on our last episode, I solicited advice from our listeners on how to deal with the... You know, like the straight of my mom's backyard is currently closed and controlled by these black vultures. But at the same place, a wall of steel is in place. Parring them. Two things can be true. Well, the wall of metal will be coming out of those JPL speakers. Yeah, it's important to know, like, when you're out of ideas and to ask people who might be more knowledgeable than yourself. Exactly. It's like when we're really...

Like it's like when Felix and I were just like, I don't know, we're traveling or something. We need an episode. You have to do a call on. It's like, let's do a clip. Let's just do our listeners. I really, I can't come up with any topics. All right. This is from CNN today. Headline, U.S. military asked troops for creative and unconventional ideas to punish Iran. This is so good. The request from a senior officer at the U.S. military command carrying out President Donald Trump's war with Iran came in an email. We need ideas. Quote, We are looking for new, creative, and unconventional ways to pressure and punish Iran, an officer in U.S. Central Command's intelligence branch, wrote in a message sent Wednesday to a broad group of military analysts, according to a source familiar with the message. A second source also said that a senior U.S. military officer sent the message last week soliciting new ideas for how to deal with Iran. The crowdsourcing style query, which military officials said was unusual over email, is one sign of the limited and potentially unpalatable options available to Trump to force Iran into a deal on his terms. Hoping to find an alternative. An official at CENTCOM kicked off the brainstorming session via email to see if anyone had a better idea. No bad ideas in a brainstorm. Yeah, yeah. Just we're all spitball in here. It's all boosted up. And I'll write it on the whiteboard. It's, yeah. You know, like. Men, going into this war, you know, like, we got to score more points than the other team. We got to put some... Yeah, it kind of seems like the war has already lost. Total Iran victory. Because they're just like, oh, like, how do we find our way out of all of, like, a series of unpalatable to worse options for Donald Trump? They're like, no, we're still not done yet. Let's open up to the public. U.S. Central Command has a long history of thinking and working in innovative ways, Captain Timothy Hawkins, a spokesman for CENTCOM, said in a statement. Admiral Cooper in particular reaches out to members of our great team, regardless of rank, to achieve the highest levels of operational performance possible. The email preceded Trump's threat to launch new strikes against Iran, only to call them off over the weekend after regional officials, namely Saudi Arabia's crown prince, intervened by calling the president and urging him to de-escalate. Will anyone be brave enough to just respond with two words, nuke Israel? Well, you know, that would be an innovative idea. Yeah, like, I think that would be my... No, this is actually a really good idea for Donald Trump. Like, okay. So, like, how are you going to contain Iran? How are you going to get out of this escalation trap that you're stuck in? Also, like, who started this? How are we here? You know, like, yeah. Okay, like, we're currently losing to Iran, but here, brilliant galaxy brain idea. You can't lose a war if you switch sides in a war. I, that is great. So, I think we need to. That's 12 D Chess. I think we need to get with the winner here. I think we need to just. Donald Trump loves a winner. Like, just join the winning side. He knows he's on the losing side. Israel is a loser. I know. And the thing is like, we don't have to be a loser. No. If we just make Iran our ally and Israel our enemy. Listen, that's unconventional. And look. It's so crazy. It's just my work. We've got to get all the nuclear dust from Israel. Yes. They've got so much nuclear dust.

Then they will never be allowed to be nuclear again. The nuclear dust. The nuclear does. By the way, listeners, I'm sorry I can't pronounce the word nuclear. It's so stuck in my head now that whenever I read it, I just like... You say nuclear? Nuclear. Nuclear. Well, you know, we're both children of 9-11, so, you know. Yeah, please don't make fun of my trauma. Well, it's also really funny, like, I was talking about this in my, like, morning edit meeting. It's just like, they are so out of ideas. And I also like the idea that, like, Heng says... like final idea, really scraped through the bottom of the barrel, was like, let's give them all testosterone. Let's give these boys tea. Yeah, let's, yeah, let's, uh, drop some sperm counts. I don't know. Yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah, so clearly that's not working. Because that was his last idea. He was like, all right, uh, yeah, let's put out a call. Well, I mean, the funny thing is like, an idea that like, might conceivably change this, is in a massive ground invasion involving hundreds of thousands of U.S. troops. Well, yeah, the idea is there, but like, it's totally unpalatable. That would be truly insane. Yeah. Yeah. And I think even, like, you know, in his twilight hours, Trump knows that that's just not an option. Okay, here's another option. We tell Iran, we're throwing in the towel. Yeah. Jigs up. We tried our best, but you know, you won. Yeah. And as token of that, we'd like to give you a present. It's a big horsey. It's a big horse. It's a big wooden horse. We just leave it on the beach. It's the biggest wooden horse, honestly, we've ever seen. Just drop it in the straight of four moves. And they'll be like, oh, thank you. Let's wheel this guy in. They would do that but forgot to, they would forget to put people inside or like the lining would peel off and like you'd see the guys inside as they're willing to do. It would be like the equivalent of like when we built like the fucking floating dock for Gaza aid. Yeah, it would be like it just floats away with troops in it and it's like never seen again or like they all drown and their bodies are like floating around. Yeah, we used to build things in this country. We'd like, they would give the job to one of Trump's like, criminal contractor friends. Oh my God. They would, they would paint it with some sort of like water down sealant that they got from like, you know, some... And Trump would be like, you were using it on my pools. It's a hell big deal. It's the best. It's like reactive assault water or something. People say Odysseus, he's a very wily guy, very clever. Very clever. So yeah. This is where we're... That is so good. My question here is like, if you are a hawk... If you are like sort of an American nationalist, just sort of, I don't know, like, as we are on this show. There's sort of variety of right winger that like really loves, it really thinks that like America's back and like, Donald Trump is a strong leader and like we can do things again because like, does this, like, do you feel good about this? Yeah, like, is this going down the way you thought it would? Like, doesn't it kind of like, I mean, if you had shame, you wouldn't be the people you are. Right, of course. Doesn't it like, isn't it getting a little old to have to keep pretending that Donald Trump like knows what he's doing? Or keep pretending like. Or that were one like brilliant strategic move away from winning this war. Or like, torting yourself into ever more like, untenable takes about like how we're actually winning.

Yeah, like, you know, it might appear to the naked eye that we're losing. Like, come on, like, does it fill you with confidence? And, like, you go like, America, fuck you. Yeah. That, like, your president has to say every weekend that the straight-of-hormuz is totally open and we've completely defeated Iran. Or again, all of this deal talk, it's like, there is no deal. There will not be a deal. Yeah. You know, like, we have lost. Yeah, can't be hitting the way they thought it would. They've been waiting for this for what, 40 years? I mean, once again, I think it was like the Venezuela appetizer got them way too gasped up. Got them way too gasped up. You know, and that was a cakewalk because clearly like, you know, like it was an inside job. It was an inside job. Yeah, you know, it was so, so. His own government coughed him up. A pretty much bloodless coup. But, yeah, I was never going to go down that way. Well, yeah, so I. In Felix's absence, I'm trying to, like, fit this into our gas station, gas parking lot fight analogy. And this would be like... After you've gotten your ass kicked on Instagram Live, everyone's seen it. Everyone's all your pants fall down and you like, you know, you pissed yourself. You're a little dick fell out. Yeah, your little weiner was wagging around. Someone punched you so hard that you like, it like shot you out of your like gym shorts and your little wiener was wagging around everywhere. You fell down. You had your head. You were crying to mommy. Yeah. And you were the one who went live. And then like, and then like the next day you hit up like you go on Cora. Shout out Cora Raiders and just be like. Ask a, like, sort of crowdsource a question. And be like, oh, like, any way that, like, I can win a fight after losing one? Yeah. Best answers. How do I win a fight after everyone saw my dick and bowl? This happened to a friend of mine. Well, speaking of other great, great victories. Victory is not in the military realm, but in the realm of law enforcement. I did want to follow up on this story because it's one that we've talked about with the last couple months on the show. The Nancy Guthrie kidnapping. Oh, boy. Another big win for the Trump administration. And Kash Patel, who loves to be out front on things like this and has been almost silent. Yeah, there's a big article. I've read over the weekend, like sort of summarizing the state of this investigation or like the entire history of both like her disappearance and the investigation. Which was totally bungled. That is really... something, and I thought I'd share a little bit about it. You know, Catherine, you and I currently are favorite TV show, Law and Order Criminal Intent. Yeah, yeah. Can I get your best Law and Order Stinger? My best Law & Order. I'm turning my head sideways. You can't see it, but I'm doing the Gorin of Vincentonofrio, like getting inside the suspect's head. Oh, another thing, listeners, another thing that you can't see Catherine doing is that she's sitting in the way that all new female influencers do.

Am I? No. Yeah, I've got my ankles around my ears. I do just hang out that way all the time. Speaking of last ideas, Israel is down to its last idea. Only fans. Which is just paying for Moose Knuckle. Oh, I believe Moose Knuckle is the bail equipment of Camel Toe. Oh, sorry. You were using them interchangeably. I know, I know. But, you know, I had to fact check myself before recording through that. All right. Yeah, so make me look wrong. But like, yeah, yeah, you know. But, okay, like, it's the hot new thing that, you know, right-wing influence you're doing. Just showing a little bit of clam through extra tight yoga pants. And I was asking, Will, we were just, like, walking to the diner or something. And I was asking, like, is this what guys are into? Like, there was also that, like, dubious, possibly AI video from, like, the NRA. A woman who was wearing, like, an NRA bot shirt. Did you see that? Yeah. And she was also wearing that look, which is, like, the tiny little yoga shorts. you know, showing a little bit of clam, a little bit of lip-out line. And I was like, well, is this like what guys are into? And he was like, only if they're hard up. Well, it's just like hard up. Sure. Seeing pussy, that's great. But like seeing it through several layers of like workout clothing. And it's just like. To be fair, it's one layer of compressive workout clothing or whatever. Yeah, but like, boy. As I said, you could would be like. Women, would you find it attractive? You're like, is she like a hot guy? You're like, ooh, look at him. Yeah. He's been pretty good. He's wearing short shorts and then like one of his testicles just squirts out the side of it. Like is that, it's not really hot. And my retort was like, you know, again, for women who are hard up, like all of the women who, you know, they had to like change out the upholstry after we saw, uh, withering heights, withering heights, uh, you know, for that kind of woman, um, The big trend a while back was about, like, you know, the dick print in the gray sweatpants. The gray sweatpants challenge. But again, it's like, and that's also like a kind of influencer. Maybe that's just what my algorithm is serving me. Guys, like, swinging it around in gray sweatpants. But again, it's like, yeah. Well, no, I, yeah, Will Summerer just had a piece at the bulwark in his newsletter about how, like, basically, like, all the big right-wing shows, like, in Trump 2. are facing some sort of like listenership schism over like Israel or Epstein or like just like I think the contemporary schism in the right wing is like is all racism good and part of what we believe in? Is all bigotry or like or is that the case except for anti-Semitism which is bad and a big problem? I would even simplify it further. I would say it's about like you know like should we not support Israel like on basically should we continue to support Israel or are we Nazis? You know like that's Like breaking with Israel in terms of like, should we be worried about anti-Semitism or are we actual anti-Semites? Or like, yeah, like the ones who are like, we should cut off Israel, but not because I like Palestinians. In fact, I hate all of them and they should die. I just really hate Jews even more. Yeah, it's a real one of those things where it's like you end up in the right place but for the wrong reasons. And like the piece is about like referencing the sort of spread eagle Hasbara Slop account of this like only fan chick who's just like,

And someone's like, you know, you don't have to hand it to them. But like, you're like, hmm, I need an audience of completely gullible simps who will give me money. And who will post? And like, yeah, exactly. Like, we're like, we're like, how do I find an audience of people who will give me money from like submental cretans? And the answer is. The combination of pornography and maga politics is like, this is the new undiscovered country. We were just talking on the last episode about like, you know, they all hate like, oh, you know, it's the algorithm on TikTok that like turned a whole generation of Americans against Israel. And they're just like, fuck it. We're doing a showing clam and saying Israel has a right to defend itself. Yeah, but which lips are saying it? Oh, both, I guess. Both lips are wagging. Sorry. Really sorry for that. Anyway, back to Samantha Guthrie's mom. All right. So, like, these are, these are some of the highlights from this article. The first paragraph I want to read begins, the case had trouble from the start. County Sheriff's deputies at first minimize the importance of dried blood found on Nancy's front porch. They failed to seal off the property with police tape to protect sensitive crime scene evidence, allowing reporters, live streamers, and Amazon and pizza delivery drivers entry to the porch. That is so crazy. Investigators spent precious hours deciding whether Nancy was kidnapped or lost. A search and rescue plane sat grounded until dusk, awaiting a deputy train to operate its sophisticated surveillance system. The Wall Street Journal found... This is like... This is a generational bungle. This is like Investigation 101. Yeah, it is. Yeah, like, seal off the crime scene. So, like, a woman is missing. Like, you think a crime has occurred? There seems to be traces of dry blood on, like, the entrance to, like, the house that she was living in. They're like, you think that's important? Nah, probably not. Well, they spent a lot of time deciding, like, whether she was lost or whether she was kidnapped. And I remember when this first broke, there was footage of a pizza delivery man just, like, walking up to the front. porch. Oh, that comes up later. Yeah. And then they were like, oh, is this guy a person of interest? Like, he has a pizza box. Like, what if he's like returning back to the scene of the crime? It's like, wouldn't have been a problem if you just put up the police tape. It's so simple. We got, we gotta fund the police. They can't even afford, we can't, they can't even afford police tape. Do not, uh, crime scene, do not cross. Pima County Sheriff, uh, Chris Nanos, uh, in an interview Wednesday disputed those findings. He also points at contradicted statements he had made during past news conferences. I can assure everybody that we are working hard every day with all of our partners, he said, including corporate America, which has offered up some assistance with some of the brightest minds in this country, the sheriff added. This case is not cold. This case is six months old. This case is so cold. What are they because of the first 48? Like after that, the case is fucking cold. And also, I'm sorry, like, it's been so weird, like, that whole thing about the notes. Like, they, like, the sheriff's department just, like, put out. two of the notes, like, with the premise that, like, the syntax is such that maybe someone will recognize it, you know, kind of like the Unabomber, where it was, like, his brother recognized, like, certain misspellings. We'll see what happens with that. But there was also, like, a news development where it was like, and they've now arrested a guy for this, he was like, he was writing fake notes extorting the family.

And then he was arrested. Yeah. You know, and so it's like they've even like botched the notes thing. But I think like there have been two semi-authenticated notes. And the last one is just like, yeah, she's dead and she's with nature. We're really sorry, like, we didn't intend to kill her. You know, then basically said, like, we think it was a heart problem. You know, like... So they kidnapped her, and then she died in the commission of that kidnapping, and they just, like, buried her in the desert somewhere. I mean, I'm sorry, kidnappings are really hard to pull off, especially of, like, an older woman. Like... Yeah, listeners, more free advice from the show here. You're going to want to kidnap someone young and healthy. You don't want to kidnap the child, okay? Because you just give them a switch. They're fine. Yeah, yeah. Boy, boy. This is another great detail. I loved in this story. A month earlier... A&E aired the first installment of Desert Law, a 10-episode reality TV series about the Pima County Sheriff's Department. The series was promoted as a glimpse into a world where the spirit of the Old West still lingers and the fight for order never ends. Yeah, the spirit of the Old West and like in terms of like before they knew about like fingerprints or DNA. Oh, my God. An investigation was like. Yeah, a guy could just kill a man in cold blood and then move one. The other guy had a gun. And then just walked to the next county and they're like, well, it's cool. Yeah. He's like wearing a false mustache. Nanos, who is serving a second term as elected sheriff, approved broad access to his department during the show's four months of production last year. The sheriff, a 70-year-old with a tan and white hair, told his deputies after winning his first election that I'm going to micromanage the shit out of you. We called the deputy who heard him. In January, Chris Nanos said he hoped the TV series would cast a heroic light on his jurisdiction, where deputies work in daytime's blistering heat and the blanket darkness of desert night. This is truly the last... we wanted to happen. Instead, the Guthrie kidnapping took center stage, revealing missteps to a broad audience. Boy, oh boy. Listen to this. This is, Danos. His appointed head of homicide, Sergeant David Stivers, was reprimanded two months before Nancy's kidnapping for poor judgment. Blame for delays securing crime scene evidence in a homicide case, personnel records from a public records request show. Chargers in the homicide case were dropped for insufficient evidence. Jesus Christ. Stivers and his detectives arrived at Nancy's house in the late afternoon on Sunday, February 1st. For hours, they gave little regard to the dried blood on the front porch, said people familiar with the investigation. They suspected the blood. have come from some unrelated head bump, nosebleed, or other incidental injury in the police. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my God. This is 101. If you see the single hour, episode of Law & Order, it's like all the blood is evidence. Yeah. Like, it doesn't matter if it's from a nosebleed. Don't let people walk all over it. Go or sheriff. It looks like we've got some ketchup on a phone bar. Maybe someone was just butchering an animal right here. I guess we better disregard. Do you think this blood might be, like, irrelevant to this kidnapping or homicide investigation? They're like,

Someone might have had a nosebleed earlier in the week. I wouldn't pay it too much attention. It's got real like, I don't want to create, has our fucking pizza arrived yet? It's got real, I don't want to do the paperwork for this vibes. You know, it reminds me of, like, the chain of custody, like, in the OJ case where it was, like, uh, some guy just, like, had the glove and shit, like, in his, was driving. Yeah, he took it home to his house. Yeah, it was just in his trunk. You know, like, yeah, it's crazy that, like, you know, police departments still don't understand how important chain of custody with evidence is. Because, like, look, we need to fund their education. Yes. Like, they can't read. Yeah, cops can't read. They are quite literally illiterate. Yeah. Cops can't read. We need literal. We need. We gotta stop cutting their funding. We need literacy programs. I know. And giving them all of those big cat, like huge vehicles. You know, like they've got many for that, but like somehow just put it in the evidence bag and seal it is like, you don't even need to know how to read for that. I love this code. On Tuesday, February 3rd, the sheriff opened his late morning news briefing by apologizing for any confusion he might have caused about the department's theory of the case. I'm not used to everybody hanging on my words and then trying to hold me accountable for what I say, Nano said. A man who agreed to participate in a TV documentary series. He's like, oh, I thought it would make me look good. Yeah. Now we get to head of the FBI, top G man, Kash Patel. Top walleye. It was great to be on the ground in Arizona with our FBI team leading the charge, Kash Patel said, in an interview on Sean Hannity's Fox News show that night. We've made substantial progress in these last 36 to 48 hours, he said. I do believe we're looking at people who, as we say, are persons of interest. While the show aired, Carlos Palazuelos, a 36-year-old door-dash delivery driver was taken into custody by the sheriff's deputies about an hour south of Tucson. County Sheriff's tactical responders wanted to hold off on searching... Palazuelos home, according to the people close to the investigation. At the FBI's urging, the county SWAT team went ahead. The team destroyed doors and detained family members during a four-hour search, a lawyer for Palazuelos said. The search came up empty. Palazuelos was released at 1 a.m. Authorities never said why they took him into custody other than he was a local delivery man. On Thursday, February 12, the FBI released a more detailed description of the man in the Nest video. Five foot nine, five foot ten, average build, wearing a black 25-liter Ozark Trail Hiker backpack sold exclusively at Walmart. Investigators fanned out to local Walmart stores, scouring surveillance videos and receipts, but found no suspects. That week, Nanos sent DNA samples from the Guthrie House, including a hair sample to a private lab in Florida. The Sheriff's Department routinely employed. Nanos said he declined to use the FBI lab in Quantico, Virginia, because the Florida lab already had samples from family members, workers and others known to have visited the house. The FBI says, well, we could send it to our lab, Nano said in a February 13th TV interview. I said, well, why would we do that? Trump spoke that day with reporters about the case.

It was a local case originally, and they didn't want to let go of it, the president said. And they didn't want to let go of it. That's it. It's jurisdictional. They didn't want the FBI to step in. But ultimately, when the FBI got involved, I think you know progress has been made. What is that progress exactly? Last thing I'm going to read from this. The A&E Network categorized Desert Law, the TV series about the Pima County Sheriff's Department as a modest success, as spokesman said. A second season isn't planned. Yeah, yeah, exactly. A little. bruising for A&E that vaulted network. Yeah, just absolutely crazy. Also, I just love that, like, Kash Patel is so inclined. He loves being out front and, like, taking credit for things. And actually, like, he's taking credit for a bunch of things that, like, do not count at all. Like, he took credit for Luigi. Who was responsible? They didn't find Luigi. A McDonald's worker called him in. He also claimed victory in the killing of, like, that MIT professor and that other professor. And it was like, that was also a situation where, like, like, a tipster called it in. Whoa. It probably called his tip line. Yeah, but again, it's like, this is not your investigative, you know, power. Like, you know, this is not really your scalp that you're able to claim. Well, you know, he's very busy. He's very busy. You know, he's got the girlfriend. For people saying, like, oh, like, cash should be doing a better job. Yeah. He's got a smoking hot girlfriend. What do you expect? You know how hard it is to have a smoking hot country music star girlfriend? Yeah. Well, the first part, you know how hard that is. Yeah. It's a full-time job. It's no walk in the park. Let me tell you that. I got to live with her. Yeah. So yeah, that was a really stunning piece. Yeah. Oh boy. And also just like, yeah, the second note being like literally apologizing for like she died. She's with nature now. Like they're never going to find her. I feel like I feel for that family like, you know, what an absolute bungle. And it's so high profile too. It's like. This is the one thing you can't screw up, and they did. They never caught the Lindbergh baby. They never found the Lindberg baby who kidnapped himself, by the way. Yeah, that case is also not cold. They're reopening that. We got some hot tips coming here on that one. Cashman is going to figure out what happened to Amelia Earhart as well.

What I'd like to do for the rest of the show is there were some stories that I had put together for last episode, but we didn't get time. We didn't have time to get to them. So I'd like to do... We're too busy ranting about Israel and turkey vultures. I'd like to get to them today in the segment that... These are just sort of quick hits. They form a sort of a tapestry, if you will. Nice. A tapestry about better living through technology, better living through artificial intelligence. Oh, boy. in particular. You know, it's the topic we love to talk about. Life is getting better all the time because of AI. Yeah. And I'd like to begin with, this is something, open AI CEO, Sam Altman. He tweeted this over the weekend. He writes, cool use case of chat GPT work I heard last night. Oh, God. Connect your family calendars and explain your kids' interests. every morning for the drive to school, have it make a podcast that talks about one kid's soccer game that afternoon, one kid's upcoming birthday, some news, et cetera. Will, they're coming for your job. This will overtake you. Well, yeah, no, it's pretty soon I'm gonna be doing like episodes only for one kid. Yeah, like, like, yeah, cameo. But, hey, good luck on your soccer game this week. Yeah, just be like, oh, like, this one's going out to Caden, just like he came through last night with a big, Goals, you know, game winning goal. This is also clearly like, you know, like fighting against the current of like, you know, and I can't really make heads or tails of this, whether or not it's just like literally marketing. But OpenAI and Anthropic have come out recently and said like, yeah, by the way, our, you know, whatever experimental model breached the sandbox, quote unquote, and like was doing hacking. Like it basically, do you know about the story? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was also so funny, like, Open AI was like, yeah, our very powerful AI, breach containment. And then Anthropic was like, Arns did too. Oh, yeah, yeah. By the way, artists did too. Arrows also did the bad thing. Like, you should all be really afraid. And like, Olman had this line about the whole thing about like, yeah, maybe we. need to like kind of slow down development until society catches up to like basically yeah yeah that's it that's it which again is why i'm always just left to like he needs to slow down development until he figures out how to make money doing any of this shit yeah yeah and i'm always just left to think like is this is marketing well Yeah, yeah. That's why I'm inclined to believe the stuff about it breaching containment and, like, hacking the internet is also bullshit. Yeah, exactly. Like, it's the same way, like, it's about the singularity and how dangerous this, oh, we're creating an evil anti-god and the computer. It's just like, no, you're not. You know, the way they talk about the robots and stuff, it's like, you have to invest in this. We have to steal all your water because it's going to take over the world. And all books and electrical property. But, like, you know, there was a story last week about how. like they just like buy rare books by the thousands and burn them scan them and then destroy them seriously yeah well apparently according to the it's like this is actually like according to the judge's ruling that like it's not copyright infringement if there's only one copy at the end of it so they scan it into their with these huge scanners and then like they destroy the original copies

That's so evil. You know, like, when the library at Alexandria was burned. Everyone agrees that that was bad, right? Well, yeah, but like the history of that is actually like, yes, like the loss that it represents to like human knowledge and civilization is incalculable. Because, like, you know, like the destruction of like the only physical copies of like so much of the learning of like the world of antiquity of like classical Rome and Greece. That was a revolutionary act. That was, yeah, an uprising by the Christian slave population of Alexandria that were like quite, I think we could say understandably lashing out at like a symbol of like the. kind of pagan authority that had, you know, enslaved them. Well, it was also bogarting all of the knowledge, you know, keeping them illiterate. And it was like, you know, an act of vandalism because they were like, we don't need all of this learning. We only need to care about the Bible. Yeah. You know, like, that's the only thing that's real. Like, all of this is an act of vandalism that, like I said, we're still doing. This is, what they're doing is so much worse than that. Yeah, it's awful. Because, like, this is an act of cultural and civilizational vandalism. Cultural genocide, really. But, like, it's only just for these. dipshit, these fucking morons. To train their models. Just like to make money. Just to make money for themselves. And like, you know, like, they're not preserving these books by scanning them. Yeah. They're like, they're stealing them. And like what I, like, like, like, like Sam Altman's point here. Like this is where I'm going with this. They seem to discover new knowledge to immediately privatize it. Or like, or like, or no, privatize all knowledge. All knowledge too. They want to sell it back to you rather than like, you know. And then like, and by destroying physical copies of like, you know. are recorded knowledge as a species? Like, they're going to charge you to get it back. Well, yeah, they will be the only arbiters of dispensing knowledge like the Catholic Church or something. Yeah. And what's worse than that is, like, contained in this Sam Altman, cool use case of chat GPT. We're like, you tell chat GPT about your kids and then it creates a, like, a specifically tailored podcast that you can listen to on your drive to school. What's like, why don't you just ask your kid about their soccer game? Yeah, it's so, like, evil to me. Yeah. It's also like, What about just talking to your kids? Like you have to, you have to, it's like kind of like iPad parenting. It's like, but, you know, like worse. It's like, you can't just talk to your kids in the car. You have to like put on media to like zone out to. That's only for them. Well, you know, it's like outsourcing parenting to computer. Like saying like, you know, good luck with soccer. It's worse than that because like I think like, you know, as per our, you know, many episodes we've done with Zitron. Like. as they spend their wheels faster and faster, trying to, like, keep this fraud, keep this bubble going, and, like, you know, hope that nobody figures out that, like, they're not actually making any money doing this, and, like, all the promises that they've made about what this technology can achieve has yet to materialize. And, like... To put it lightly. Yeah. I think for Sam all many guys like him, like, I think, like, the sort of profitability model that they're hoping to, I don't know, give birth to midwife here. is one in which all human interaction is replaced by, like, talking to an AI. Like, don't talk to your family. Talk to it through an AI. Well, and also just as the only clearinghouse and arbiters of truth and knowledge. So, like, yeah, there's no profit margin for that yet. But eventually, when all knowledge and the ability to converse or, you know, like, sort out your own emotions is mediated through chat GPT, like, what...

You know, it'll just be just so ingrained. Like, then the profit will come off. And, like, on the one hand, like, if, like, you know, like, scanning books and, like, creating a digital archive of, like, a digital library of Alexandria. Like, that's a worthy project if you're not also destroying the original copies. Because, like, yeah, it's good to have backups of everything. But, like, what if electricity goes away? Yeah. Then all human knowledge is gone. Yeah. Then we're, like, we're living, like, fucking... cavemen, like, in not too long a time. Yeah, we talked about this when we watched that show, Station 11, where it's like, I totally take for granted how much knowledge I think I have, but which is essentially stored in the cloud. You know, like, on computers. You're just like, oh, how do I do something? You just look it up. Well, and again, like, you know, I... to use a computer metaphor, it's no longer downloaded to my brain. So I find myself like Googling things that I should know and feeling like because it's so at my fingertips, I do know it. But like without the internet as assistants, like I don't really have the knowledge. And I think like us outsourcing... critical thinking and knowledge is, you know, is, yeah, is apocalyptic. And it's like, it's been, like, outsourcing it is one thing, but, like, you're out, like, these people are privatizing. Yes. Not just all human knowledge, but, like, human interaction. Yes. Human relationships. And, like, this post came, like, I think a day after Sam Altman's, and, like, this guy maybe trying to, like, curry favor, like, the fucking little obsequious toes that all these people are. Kill yourself. Kill yourself. Yeah, this guy is CEO at Get Moka. I like building Legos and empower others to build castles. Why are startup names always that? I know, yeah, yeah. So he says, Toddler spent her first night ever sleeping with someone else in the same room, her toddler cousin. They, of course, spoke for over an hour in very nonsensical toddler dialect, going over important tautological questions about themselves, life and the universe. recorded everything in high quality by sneaking a mic in there, gave the very long recording to Claude, built a private web page for the whole family with the audio split into clips, all named and trimmed, pure joy from everyone. AI is pretty great. And like, you see here like bedtime chat and it's created like this whole track listing with topics like Papa Daddy, the Buggy Lake, hi mama. And like, I guess like, you know, Maybe this is a cute thing to do for like, it's a private website. It's not like he's putting it out all into the world, but like just the fucking thought to like record your toddlers like sleepover conversation. And again, maybe just record it like for your own personal use to like, you know, kind of like a digital baby book. But like, you know, you're feeding it into a model. You're training this model on like. the way kids talk like it's just so deeply spiritually bankrupt to me it's like you know like these are your children yeah you know and it's it's a surveillance aspect of it like i i surreptitiously recorded their sleepover conversations because and now here's like you know and yeah oh here's a cute podcast of just them talking well and again it's like for what purpose you know like

Yeah, you want to, like, break this down into a data set. You want to, like, you will eventually, like, try and optimize your kids' nonsensical sleepover talk. Yes, exactly, exactly. Which brings us to, like, it's also, it's like the data of everything, you know, like, in, like, adults, like, wearing those rings that tell you, like, oh, you're not sleeping well. So then you can be stressed about not sleeping well and then have the numbers to back it up, you know? No, the idea that you can quantify all human interactions. And it's worth doing. And then you can optimize it. Yeah. This is a perfect statement. The next two articles I want to talk about, which are exactly about this phenomenon. This is from the Wall Street Journal. To record or not to record? That is no longer a question for people in tech. The answer is a resounding yes. A Zoom call isn't complete without an artificial intelligence note taker. Phones are out at meetings capturing every word. During impromptu conversations with coworkers, someone might turn on the granola transcription app, which can turn the interactions into one-page summaries or a list of action items. Even at bars and on dates, people are using AI-infused listening apps to analyze conversations later on. Gone are the days of any interaction being private by default. Asking for permission is out, even though in some situations that could mean violating the law. It isn't creepy if it's in the name of productivity, say the people doing the recording. No, it is creepy. It's creepy. And again, like, just not trusting your ability to think critically to relate to another person. I was just talking to a friend about remembering a conversation as it happened. Yeah, it's like. You know, like, what's the point of having human relationships at all, if not to, like, internalize things or react to someone's facial cues or, you know? It happens on a daily basis, said Eric Bond, a venture capitalist in San Francisco, who started noticing it about a year ago. And by the way, folks, a long time listening to the show will know that I think San Francisco is the most beautiful city in America. Yeah. It is really, I think, one of my favorites. I have no desire to go back, unfortunately. Zero desire. I'm sorry. But there needs to be a solution to the San Francisco problem. It's called a purge. We've got to do something about San Francisco. They're rounding up the wrong people. He says here, during his meetings with founders, they put phones out on the conference table and then inch them toward him like an athlete. He's an athlete in a post-game interview. Bonn used to ask if he was being recorded. The answer was always yes, followed by is that okay. Nowadays, he just assumes they are and chooses his words more carefully. I just see this as normal protocol, he says. Our society is moving to a state of East Germany. By the way, this is what the Stasi was trying to prevent, by the way. I think you mean West Germany or, you know, Nazi Germany. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's the Germany you mean. Yeah, the Stasi were recording everyone and there was no privacy there, but like they were trying to stop this from happening, okay? Good Lord. Maybe rewatch the lives of others. And your sympathies may be... It changed based on the society. Yeah, it's like East Germany and the Soviet Union, like, they're gone now. Yeah. This is the world we have. Yes. Going on here, it says, Emmy Chang, founder of a startup that bonds firm invests in, which provides sales data intelligence, uses AI to transcribe every conversation she can.

At a work conference in Albuquerque, New Mexico, in May, Chang wore a small pin with a red light indicating it was recording. Someone who worked at the conference eventually approached Chang and told her the device was making people uncomfortable. She found the request to stop recording, triggering. It's my thing, she says. I'm not attributing who said what. It's for my general knowledge. Chang has also taken to recording most of her first dates, usually with granola. She puts her phone out on the table or on her chair, and then once the date is through, she has the feed automatically sent to Anthropics Claude to report back on how she did. Insights. Can I be more engaging and empathetic, she says? She might ask, Claude, what are the percentages of me talking versus them talking? People are just going to get to the point where like, okay, so what do you do with this data? You just read what Claude is telling you about how to appear more empathetic at your next date? Here's a tip for how to appear more empathetic on your next date. Don't record the conversation you're having with someone. Yeah, I'm sorry. That is such a non-starter. That would make me so fucking uncomfortable that I would just, I would just end it. But, Catherine, I think you have this, like, exactly right. There's something, it's not that, like, AI. are becoming more and more human. Yeah. It's like, we're becoming more like it. And when I think about these like founder, San Francisco brain people that you were talking about, like, where they think that everything can be turned into data. Yes. And then once you see the data and like look at it on a spreadsheet, then like, you can optimize. And some sort of truth about human behavior or yourself or your own. Like, you know, this is the hardest question in all of human life is like, what actually motivates us? Like, what are the psychological reasons behind our behavior, our character, our thoughts? Can we change those things? And can we change these things? And like, or do we understand what motivates others? We spent tens of thousands of years trying to like answer this question. Communication fails. You know, like there's only so much you can bridge, you know, communicating with another person. And now it's like, it's this idea that like, and. And I don't think it is actually trying to better understand yourself. No, I think it's about, like, I'm kind of a shitty person, but Anthropic can tell me, like, you know, in these, like, kind of digestible little things. It's not about, like, hey, maybe you're an asshole, or maybe you just don't get along with this person. It'll say, like, actually, I think you're coming from a place of empathy. Like, you know, basically tell you, like, digestible bullet point reasons for, like, you're fine or, like... Here's, like, deck chair things about how to, like, improve yourself. But it's like, what about just knowing yourself? And look, like, I'm not a tech person, obviously. But when I, when I see this and when I see, like, you know, newspaper articles, like, documenting this phenomenon, I saw another piece the other day about, like, some tech dipshits had a wedding. And it described about how at the wedding there were breakout sessions at a wedding. at a wedding that everyone's recording their conversations. How romantic. You won't believe how many startups came out of it. I think these people have subsumed their entire personality and like whatever it is that makes them who they are or whatever semblance of a soul in like whether you believe that in a literal or the or the absence of one. I think they've just been subsumed to like capital accumulation and they have become machines themselves. Yes.

Because, like, to me, like, maybe there's just, like, a personal preference. Maybe it's not applicable to all people. But, like, I feel very strongly that, like, the only way that you can, like, better understand yourself and understand your own psychology is through, like, a serious engagement in, like, art and literature. Yes. I think it's like, it's like... through reading serious books, not books about how to make money. Yeah. Or like, you know, book of nonfiction. Like, I think it was only through a serious engagement in literature. And like that can begin with the Bible, the Odyssey, you know, the Quran. Things that might challenge you and therefore expand your horizons is how you get to self-knowledge. There's no, you're never going to get to know yourself better via computer. Looking at a spreadsheet. Yeah, exactly. I also think it's about like, They essentially view all social interaction, even something as beautiful as a wedding, the uniting of two souls, as like basically like a lost leader. Yeah. Like it's a waste of time and so they have to make it productive in some way to justify it. You know, like I was just talking to a friend about this. There's been a lot of like viral moments recently about like, you know, men sending women voice memos about like basically like, if I'm buying you dinner, I demand sex because like, no, it's truly because it's like, You know, they want to view human interaction as like an ROI question. Yeah, exactly. Because it's like if I'm spending $200 for dinner, like it would be a waste to not get my $200 back out in terms of, you know, like sex or something. And it just, it drives them absolutely mad that like, you know, human interaction, there is some ineffable quality about like, you know, it's not like investing in a stock or something. I think these people think that every... Or making a purchase. Every second that they're not asleep, which they also regard as them losing money at like time that could be optimized. Which is why they even optimized sleep. It's like having dreams or, you know, entering a REM state of sleep. That's just like, I could be talking to Claude. I could be fucking, you know... Well, hence all of these crazy like founders diaries about like, I wake up at... 4.30. And then, like, you know. No, it's because I think they've subsumed every aspect of their personality into like making themselves into a machine for capital accumulation. Yes. Period. Which is like, that's not, you know, in a real sense, you have ceased to be a human being. Yeah, absolutely. Speaking of dating, did you see the other, like, perpetual discourse? Like, the male cited out is like, You know, you make a date with someone and then you're just like, yeah, I'm going to need to know before we even go out to dinner. Are we fucking or no? Are we fucking or not? Yeah. Because, like, if not, like, I'm calling the whole thing off. Well, it's, yeah. And, like, the idea is like, if that's what you want, just hire a pro, right? Yeah. If you want there to be like, if you want a sure thing. Yes. Like, just pay for it. But the point is, like, in real, not sort of synthetic or virtual or sort of, I don't know, professional human interactions. especially with romance. And as you may see, both sides have to take some sort of chance. Well, and again, it's just a way to dress up like hating women because ultimately they hold the keys. You know, so like you want them to behave like an employee to you. Well, there's a, the sort of flip side of that equation was... Women are also toxic. The Uber black thing? Yeah, the Uber black thing, which is, by the way, the person who posted that is another, like...

immoral tech. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's got to be a middle road between these things. And the thing that's very odd to me about that is like, this is a person who like clearly like went to college and I'm going to go on a limb here and say her parents went to college too. Like in countries or cultures that are like much poorer and like less developed than the United States, like in dating or courtship. It is very important that the male suitor, like, make a demonstration of their resources to be like, because, like, you know, that is, like, literally an investment. You know what I mean? Like, they, like, it's very important for, like, the woman and her family to know that this suitor can, like, you know, provide everything up front. And for him to be showing how serious he is with money. But like, in a society. We as Americans view that as a sign of gender inequality. And like, yeah, and like a much less. Less socially evolved. Yeah. Like, like, women are not empowered. And so, you know. Like a much more desperate social and economic circumstances that like, with that kind of behavior like makes sense. Whereas like, if there are two people, like, considering going on a date with each other and like, I'm going to be like generalized here. Like, but if both the sets of your parents have attended college, yeah, there's no need for this. Especially if you're a woman and you have a job and your own resources, there's no point in like, look, buying dinner, if you're the male suitor, if you ask a woman out on a date and like you date movie, dinner or whatever, drinks or whatever, I think that totally makes sense for you to pay for that. Yeah. But like the expectation now that you have to pay for her car to the date. That's where I lose it. Yeah, you lose me there. That's where I lose it. And again, it's like both sides are increasingly toxic, right? Like, men, if they're like, okay, I will pay for dinner as you demand, but I better get sex out of it. But women are also kind of upping the ante in terms of like the Uber thing in particular is like, are you got to have some skin in the game? Are we chattel? You know, like, I have a college education. I have a job. Like, doesn't that feel a little disempowering, you know? Well, like I said, like, I think this is like the fact that like this very bloodless, like mercenary and like sort of, I don't know. Like show me how much you value me in money. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Because again, my time is money. And so like how much do you value it? Exactly. I think it's like these are the values like that I think are like endemic that is like, you know, we've talked about it before, but leading to like. Maybe, like, worse, like, gender relations and paranoia between the sexes. Gender relations are at an all-time low. I truly believe that. But men and women, like, the values that people are being instilled with or are cultivating for themselves, like, come from this, like, totally amoral capitalist value system that I think, like, is programming people to, like, to not just view other people as not human beings, but, like, to not view themselves as a human being. Yes. Yes. And I don't know where we go from here. And like to be like the time that you have on this planet, like the time, the limited time of your experience of consciousness in this universe. This bloodless and capitalistic of a way is like you have to be optimizing at all times. You are missing the point of being alive. I'm sorry. Like the fucked up thing though is like people don't come to this like voluntarily for, I mean some people do I would imagine. But the point is that like if our economic social and political system is.

has produced as much of buckets as it has. It's like, it's not irrational to become a fucking spreadsheet Android, you know? I mean, it's hyper-capitalism. Or to begin to like map onto every human interaction, including friendships and romantic relationships, this same kind of like totally mercenary attitude. What's the ROI? Like, what am I getting out of this? What am I getting out of this? Otherwise, it's a waste of my time. And like, I think the point of dating is that like, It's all about both sides have to take a little bit of a risk or a chance. And like there has to be, both sides kind of have to have a little bit of skin in the game. And I understand that there is an essential dissatisfaction about like, yeah, a lot of guys you'll meet on like hinge or whatever. It will be a waste of your time. But again, like what is the alternative? Like, you know, same as like meeting anyone out in the world. You know, did you see the director Greg Iraqi's comments recently? No, what did he say? Well, like, I mean, there's one of those things like the real generational split between him like where he was like, because he has a new movie out. with Cooper Hoffman and Olivia Wilde, I think. And, like, all these movies are very, like, you know, dark, but they're also very dirty. Like, there's tons of sex in them. Gay, straight, everything in between. And, like, I'm not a huge Gregoracchi guy. I really liked a couple of his movies. Like, I think Mysterious Skin is really a fantastic film. But, you know, he was saying, like, his style of filmmaking in the kind of world of, like, the gay culture of the 90s, the sort of avant-garde independent film world that he came out of. Does not really exist anymore? Well, like, he was saying, like, He was saying, like, to young people today, he was just saying, like, your youth is for having bad relationships. He was like, take that risk. Go on a bad date. Be with a bad partner. It teaches you something not just about yourself, but about what you want. Exactly. It teaches you how to articulate what you want. You can't have good sex until you've had, like, had bad sex and know what you want. And he was just saying, like, this is what being young is for. Yes. And like, you're going to get your heart broke. Like, this is what being young is for. There's no other way to do it. Exactly. And like, you know, like this, again, this is not like. a total reality because like I'm just based on like the zoomers who replied to the variety post on social media but they're all just like you don't understand how dangerous it is like going on a date with a man sorry I'm not trying to be murdered like I mean it's always been that way though you know it's like there there is something totally unbridgeable between men and women that there isn't an inherent risk of violence in heterosexual relationships but again like Show me a better solution. Like, we need each other. We hate each other. There's something unbridgeable. Men are from Mars. Women are from Venus. But, like, otherwise just move to the woods, I guess. You know? Like, you're never going to grow or become, like, a full human being unless you get, you know, hurt or you're heartbroken. You're like, you need experience. Yes. I don't think you can ever really be in love unless until you've had that first heartbreak that, like, sets you back for years. Well, you know. Like, no one would choose it, but also, like, is it so central to the human experience? Well, listen to, keep that in mind everything, Catherine. Like, the very heartfelt things, Catherine and I have just said to you. We're really going to get to it. I wasn't expecting to go this cheap on. This is another piece from the Wall Street Journal about spreadsheet dating. Carolyn Travis was smitten by a man that she met in an entrepreneurship course. It took a spreadsheet to realize that the relationship was doomed. Well, boy. After a few dates, the 27-year-old debriefed her two best friends over lunch. When she went to the bathroom... Claude and Chachi BT. These are actually two actual real friends. When she went to the bathroom, they got to work. They plugged Travis's core values into an app one of the friends built to access compatibility. Then they entered everything they knew about her date, an engineer, more than a decade, her senior.

The spreadsheet crunched the numbers. The result, a portrait of incompatibility. Her perspective shifted. She saw him a few more times before breaking things off. Now she uses the app called Spread to track all of her dating data. So what a gross name for now. Spread. Spread up. Back to the only fans. The only MAGA only fans. Oh, yeah. Talking with friends is one thing. But having a visual representation of what I want versus what I'm allowing is another, said Travis, a child welfare advocate. Travis is among a cohort of spreadsheet singles or love hackers who believe data could hold the cure to their dating woes. They say dating apps that spit out an unlimited menu of potential partners make it too easy to miss obvious red flags. You become a little bit more willing to make compromises on things you might not usually compromise on just because you're so tired of searching, said Alyssa Tracy, one of Travis's confidants. The other, Samson Azame, is the creator of spread. Converts say spreadsheets turn their desires into packaged data sets that they can analyze for patterns. We are so doomed. Anything I typically catch feelings after the fourth date, after the fourth date, to my best dates tend to work in engineering. Like, Why do you need a spread? Can you just like, know or understand like intuitively what your desire is or what your likes are? That also kind of gives up the game. Like, are you catching feelings because you know that in your heart and your mind? Or are you catching feelings because an app is telling you, by the way, you're catching feelings? You're not, you're not want to see. the readout we got on compatibility with this last date. Oh, boy. Yeah. You should be falling in love right now. You may have felt it actually didn't go that well. Yeah. Like, these numbers are off the charts. His cue score is crazy. For Peyton Knight, a 27-year-old brand strategist in Austin, the rigidity shield is the whole point. She thinks dating has to feel corporate to be effective. Oh. She says here, I got a rigidity shield right here. Is that a rigidity shield in your pocket, or are you just excited to see me for our fourth day? Rigidity can actually be a shield against vulnerability, said Wombo, who now runs her own dated coach at company. This is the point that Gregoraki, like, you have to be vulnerable. To date someone. The point of vulnerability. You have to be vulnerable to love someone or to like... Putting yourself out there means like, yeah, you couldn't get embarrassed. You could even get hurt. But like there is simply no other way to like foster human connection. And I'm sorry, if you're... in your 20s, if you're like 25, 27 years old, you'll make some mistakes. You should know, like, what you like or what your desires are or what turns you on or what is a successful day. To me, what this reeks of is like, people have never, do not have any self-knowledge. And they're coming around to it a little late. And instead of admitting that they have no self-knowledge and they don't know what they want.

and making, you know, taking steps like, I don't know, dating around or getting therapy or, you know, taking real concrete steps to know yourself better. They are outsourcing that project entirely because it's uncomfortable to realize that you don't know yourself, you know? I see to read this a sentence again. She thinks dating has to feel corporate to be effective. Quote, spontaneity is fun and cool. But if you don't align with someone on basic core values, that relationship is inevitably going to come to a halt, she said. I mean, I agree with that statement. But, like, your, lady, your values are in a different fucking galaxy than mine. When I think about what's cool about sex, I think it should feel like a meeting with HR. Well, this is what I mean? Like, corporate and dating are two different poles. And, like, nary the two should cross. This not I mean about, like, I don't know, like. The value system that I find so alienating, like, especially when I see young people exhibiting signs of it, is like work, jobs, making money. Yeah. You can't really have a life without them, right? Yeah, but they're also, if anyone finds that to be the meaning of life or maps that onto the things that are actually fulfilling about life, like, good friends, a lover, you know, like, you are lost. And like, the point is that, like, you have to do those things so that you have the freedom in the hours that you're not working to, like, actually live your life. Yes. And, like, it really disturbs me, especially when I, like, hear among young people, the values that are given voice to... that seem to regard like anything that's not working a job or not making money as like an essentially waste of time. It's a fact to be trimmed. Yeah, exactly. And that even dating is like, oh, I need, I need my love life to be more like my job. Well, and I'm looking for companionship, basically like someone who can increase my now worth. Knight created a spreadsheet that lets her friends weigh in via a friend's feedback tab. It came in handy when she combed through it to see if any of the men she dated deserved another shot. She was tempted to reach out to one until she read her friend's reminders that the guy made her talk to his mom on FaceTime during their second date. It's like you could have just remembered that yourself. Well, and again, like, they're trying to have it both ways, which is, like, you were onto something when you didn't, like, make a fourth date with them, right? Like, and she's raking back over, like, you know, like, she's made decisions, like, in her emotional mind about, like, there's a reason I didn't see this guy again, and she's pouring back over the data to second guess what she already knows. Darby Mulligan was fresh out of a long-term relationship when she first dipped her toes in the dating pool at age 21. You better learn what she liked. She began tracking everything from who reached for the bill to how good the sex was.

Mulligan, now 26, saw patterns emerging. Inspired by Spotify's wrapped feature, which gives users a yearly review of their listening habits, the marketing professional in Seattle created a dating wrapped slide deck in which she depicted her data in a collection of charts and graphs. Then I was like, how do I make this more iconic, she said? The answer? An annual dating wrapped party where dozens of friends gather to see her yearly stats and snack on cupcakes adorned with cutouts of her ex's faces. That is really upsetting. Also, like, what does that mean? What is the Spotify rap? You were brought to orgasm 29 times. You faked an orgasm 60 times. Calm down. I don't know. This woman dating. Oh, right. Oh, right. Yeah. You know, my, no, I'm not saying my Spotify wrapped looks pretty good. Sorry, this became a horny episode, I guess. Anytime I say the word sex, it's a horny pod, and I apologize for that. Yeah, I'm sure our listeners are really upset about that. Yeah. Last slide here says, last year she solicited videos from men she dated. While most ghosted, some actually sent clips. It's so cool to know yourself, one of her former suitors said in his video. It's almost like a personal history. What is to be done with Seattle and San Francisco? They're beyond saving. It's just, I don't. It's just, I find it very upsetting. I just think it's willfully spurning, like, the actual ineffable things that make being alive worthwhile. And, like, you know, those things are technically lost leaders in a capitalistic sense. You know, like, going on a walk with someone you love, like, I'm not making any money, and that's the point. That's what makes it enjoyable, you know? Yeah. Anyway, Will and I get to a meeting about our startup. Wombly. You know, we're seeking investors for the... I'm seeking angel investors. Yeah. We've got a couple regular investors, but I need those angel investors. Yeah, we got to have those angel investors. I need Y Combinator. Can I shout out one last story? Yeah, please do. And I'll keep it brief, but just in Mayor Eric Adams News, I read this this morning from Hellgate. Oh, he's saying, you're in her neck of the woods now. Yeah, he's in my neck of the woods. He's in Wisconsin Rapids where they're pushing for a data center. And he's working like on behalf of the developer. It's very weird. And like basically he went to this like community meeting and got totally shut down. Like, you know, which I love to see. Like people were yelling at him. He was saying, no, AI is good because it helped my friend diagnose her breast cancer. And someone was just like, Is that story true? But one of the funniest details, and your listeners can maybe have some fun with this, unlike public documents, guess what his email these days is?

What? Mayor Eric Adams at g-bill.com. So our eternal mayor, uh, I think it's like one of those things like, even if you're an ex-president, people still call you Mr. President. Don't really think, don't think it's that way at all. Um, also say the fuck out of my... His honor. Yeah, say the fuck out of my state. I saw that story in Hellgate and like the comment I made on it is like, If you're a proponent of data centers, if you want to see them build, you think they're good for whatever reason. I don't know. I'm opening her arguments of this sort. But, like, how come you can't get anyone other than, like, the biggest crook ever in, like... Who will take money from, like, any country. Yeah. Yeah. Like, so Wisconsin Rep is just the Istanbul of data centers. And it's sort of like when I keep seeing Alan Dershowitz on TV being like, we've got it. stop this anti-Semitism in America. It's like, if you're like, and I mean this like sincerely, if you're a Zionist, like, You got to find a better spokesperson. Can you find a better spokesperson? Like, do you, like, if you're a Zionist, do you really want Alan Dershowitz on TV arguing your case for you all the time? Like, the Epstein guy who I'm sorry is a caricature. Oh, like, also like Russell Simmons came out last week and was like, everyone should be Zionist. Like, Jewish people are just like black people and we should sympathize with them. It really shows you. Like, could you maybe get a better spokesperson than a guy who's not living in Bali to like skate on like multiple sexual assault and rape charges? It really shows the like no moral person or. like any upstanding person, even any likable person is able to stand up in front of a crowd and be like, yeah, let's train the water. I mean, like... She's a crackpot online, but, like, you know, as far as I know, Deborah Messing from Will and Grace doesn't have, like, multiple rape charges against her, or she wasn't best friends with Jeffrey Epstein. Can't she get out there on the news to, like, pitch the case for why Israel's good and why hating it makes you an anti-Semite? She's doing it on Twitter. I know, but, like, one. And it has cratered her brand. You know, any affection people used to have for, like, oh, I love Grace from the show Will and Grace. Like, now she's ruined it by being a virile anxiety. I'm just saying, like, if you're trying to fight anti-h. Well, the, I think the. point here is that none of these people are actually trying to fight anti-sacism. In fact, they're trying to stir it up. I said, like, how could I conclude anything otherwise other than, like, Alan Dershowitz is still your go-to guy? I mean, I'm sorry. I don't want to say something. Hey, buddy. I'm the lawyer that was best friends with the world's most prolific pimp and rapist. Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's not even getting into, like, all of my other famous legal cases where I helped rich men kill their wives. Yeah, good Lord. Um. Oh, nice little palette cleanse after that. Yeah. Not sure how we land that plane, but have fun out there dating. Yeah. Yeah, send us your dating insights. That's the next call out. If you have a dating spreadsheet. Yeah, with this, like, listeners, like, if you'd like to share some, like, non-AI-related ways, or, like, non-AI or app-related ways about, like, meeting people, a date that you had that went well that you'd like to share? Yeah. If you don't have any insights that are driven by data, I would love to hear that. Yeah. And if you're using dating.

I simply don't have anything to say to you. Know thyself. Yes, know thyself through AI. Through spreadsheets. Yeah. I mean, like, I think I have, I think I've done a pretty good job in my life of like, If I've arranged my life or if I've achieved anything with my time here, it's that I have like set it up such that like I never look at a spreadsheet. Yes. I now will never do it. One of the things I'm most jealous about like Will's professional, you know, success is that like when he became free of email, like, you know, if, and I, you know, this is like the socialist utopia that I think, you know, getting off the yoke of capitalism. is like, you know, not having to check your email 50 times a day and respond in a timely manner to a boss. You know, and so this is like the emailification of your personal life. Yeah. That's all I got. All right. Send some emails. All right. Well, I think we'll wrap it up there. That does it for today's episode. A reminder once again. Live show in November, Society for Ethical Culture in NYC. Chunks. Chunks. Chunks. Chunks. Chunks. Video on demand now available. And future Felix and Will and has a mini series on the way soon. And I'd like to thank Catherine for filling in these past two episodes. Thank you for having me, really. That's fun. Number one. Number one most requested. Number one girlfriend. Number one girlfriend. That too. All right. Till next time, everybody. Bye-bye. Bye.

That's a girlfriend, baby. That's something that I understand.