Widespread backlash as Trump cheers Kimmel suspension

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frankly, on Kimmel, or there's going to be additional work for the FCC ahead. A very reasonable, minimal step that can be taken. I mean, obviously, look, there's calls for Kim will be fired. I think, you know, you could certainly see a path forward for suspension over this. And again, you know, the FCC is going to have remedies that we could look at. Again, plain as day, right? We all just watched the same bit of tape. That is in fact renting Carr, the chair of the FCC. He is in fact threatening. He is in fact demanding the firing of Jimmy Kimmel or there will be action by the FCC. Nextar and Sinclair broadcasting the two biggest local TV operators in the country both agreed to pull Kimmel's show following that explicit threat from Carr. They both also happen to have billions of dollars in business in front of the FCC. In Nextar's case, it needs to get deregulatory approval. It needs the FCC to take a step to deregulate in its favor in order to purchase even more local affiliates. And in response to the pressure from the affiliates, ABC pulled Kimmel show nationwide. So the FCC Commissioner was back on TV this morning. We're in the midst of a massive shift in dynamics in the media ecosystem for lots of reasons, again, including the permission structure that President Trump's election has provided. And I would simply say we're not done yet with seeing the consequences of that shift. What does that mean when you say you're not done yet, then? I mean, will you only be pleased when none of these comedians have a show on broadcast television? No, again, it's not about any particular show or any particular person. It's just we're in the midst of a very disruptive moment right now. And I just frankly expect that we're going to continue to see changes in the media ecosystem. Now, you see what Carr was doing there, right? Like trying to sort of step back and be like, I'm just an observer. There's lots of tunnels. Just an observer. What's going on? The tumult in the media ecosystem. Because I think that maybe he recognized the explicit threat followed by the benching of Jimmy Kimmel was a little too much. But of course. Donald Trump never won for subtlety and never one for subtext, himself today was on Air Force One, making it extremely clear what this is all about. The changes in the media ecosystem, he is demanding. Look, that's something that you'd be talking about for licensing, too. When you have a network, then you have evening shows, and all they do is hit Trump. That's all they do. If you go back, I guess they haven't had a conservative one in years or something, somebody said, but when you go back and take a look, all they do is in Trump. They're a license. They're not allowed to do that. They're an arm of the Democrat Party. Now, to fact check them there, they are in fact allowed to do that.

Former President Barack Obama, who's generally been reluctant to weigh in on day-to-day political developments during his post-presidency, issued a statement condemning the move to Polkimmel show, quote, this is precisely the kind of government coercion of the first amount was designed to prevent, and media companies need to start standing up rather than capitulating to it. Today we heard from another late-night icon, David Letterman. I feel bad about this because we all see where this is going, correct? It's managed media. And it's no good. It's silly. It's ridiculous. And you can't go around firing somebody because you're fearful or trying to suck up to an authoritarian criminal administration in the Oval Office. That's just not how this works. We're also seeing some pushback from the often Trump-friendly podcast bro space. Comedians like Tim Dillon and Andrew Schultz, both made post condemning the benching of Kimmel on social media. Others spoke out directly on their shows. This was Trump and the FCC leaning on Disney, bullying them in the affiliate owners, and they capitulated to Trump. They're scared right now. And if Trump... And the extreme right in this idioter runs the FCC, they don't like somebody. They're going to bully them down. In terms of censorship, freedom of speech is more under attack now, honestly, than I think it has ever been. If you're a staunched Trump guy, I think you should really look at, oh, this guy said in the inauguration, I'm going to pass an executive order to ban government, to end government censorship and make speech free again, or whatever was it, he said. You said that in your inauguration. What happened? Also, in a welcome development, there have been lots of influential voices in the conservative movement in the last day or so that have been speaking out against this erosion of the First Amendment. Karl Rove? And the Wall Street Journal editorial board both published pieces this week condemning the crackdown on free speech in the wake of Kirk's murder. And Tucker Carlson and Mike Pence, two guys with very different perspectives on the MAGA movement, both seem to be somewhat on the same page about this. Even as Pence supported the decision to remove Kimmel, he expressed concern for the larger crackdown that the administration is openly planning. We've got to be careful about putting America on trial. whenever we see evil overtake the hearts of any individual. And in this case, absent additional facts, it was one person responsible for Charlie Kirk's assassination. He needs to be brought to justice, swift and certain. Can people in public life do better in the way that we speak with one another and about the issues facing the country? Of course. I think democracy depends on heavy doses of civility. You hope that Charlie Kirk's death won't be used by a group we now call bad actors to create a society that was the opposite of the one he worked to build. You hope that. You hope that a year from now.

The turmoil we're seeing in the aftermath of his murder won't be leveraged to bring hate speech laws to this country. And trust me, if it is, if that does happen, there is never a more justified moment for civil disobedience than that ever, and there never will be. What we're seeing from this administration is a frontal assault, unapologetic. on one of the most cherished freedoms we have, the one that we celebrate arguably the most, the freedom to speak out and criticize the very government we elect to represent us without fear of being crushed or bullied or threatened. Governor Tim Walz is a Democrat of Minnesota, formerly kicking off his reelection campaign with a rally tomorrow to be third term governor. He's also, of course, Kamala Harris is running mate in the 2024 election, and he joins me. Now, Governor, it's great to see you. How serious do you take these developments of the last 24 hours? Oh, hi, Chris. Good to see you. This is it. If you ever wondered how democracy dies, you're witnessing it. And I know people are watching a football game tonight and we're kind of sleepwalk through this thing. Don't remind them. We got him here. Governor. The most outrageous affronts. Right. That's one of the most outrageous affronts on this. This is North Korea-style stuff. And it's being done because this is a weak, thin-skinned man who's failing as a president. All of the things he promised are not happening. And this is exactly what dictators do. It's a... It's our most cherished freedom to point out very clearly this is a terrible president and a terrible human being who is doing nothing to improve the lives of Minnesotans and who continues to have this double standard because I just want to be very clear. There is no place for political violence and we condemn it. But I would like to see the notice of how this is being approached and how my dear friend Melissa Hortman's murder in a political attack was handled. And the attacks we see, we see a Fox News host. on air talk about killing homeless people. And this week we saw eight homeless people shot in Minneapolis. And so the consistency around this certainly isn't there. But none of this surprises me with Donald Trump. But Chris, I think the thing I am concerned about is... This is not overreacting. This is our responsibility now. Getting a democracy back after it's gone is a lot harder to defending it now. And so I would just tell people this. And it's good to see, good to see some of those conservative voices standing up and saying that because this one's not even close. This is outrageous. And Jimmy Kimmel's point, and look, we can all speak, you know.

inarticulately, we can make mistakes, we can step back, but the idea that they're going to chill speech just because it's critical, because look, this isn't about any other type of speech other than what Donald Trump's views as anti-Trump. He said it. This isn't even about what was spoken about Charlie Kirk's murder. This is about, he said it, you're against Trump. You're against Trump, and that's what it's all about. So look, out here in Minnesota, we're firewalling against this. I'm running again to make sure we protect those freedoms. Make sure I'm out there to protect the folks who dislike me, and they have every right to broadcast that and talk about why they dislike me. That is a God-given right. It is our constitutional right. We're going to protect it out here, but... we should all be deeply concerned about what we saw happen here. I want to just be real clear about the awful tragedy you mentioned in Minnesota, the shooting of eight homeless individuals that, and following those comments from Brian Kilmeade on Brock News, there was no connection between those two as far as we know, just to be super clear about the facts here because we were in treacherous times and I want to just be clear on that. No. No, but what I'm saying is that people start to see this, Chris, and that they're able to say this. He should think about that because, look, these things, no, no connection that we see right now. But the connections start to happen when we said it separate this speech that they're giving from what Donald Trump is very clearly making sure it's speech against him. All of this is unacceptable. Any type of political violence is unacceptable. So hold everybody to the same standard. But this is very different. If Jimmy Kimmel speaks out, and he's a comedian, these are broadcasters on TV, are elected officials. So muddying the water on this, they know exactly what they're doing. And look, as far as the FCC and Carr, this is the guy was one of the authors of... Project 2025, they know exactly what they're doing. This is part of the broader plan of stifling and collapsing the democracy to make sure that Donald Trump does what he wants to do. And we're not going to do it in Minnesota. We're going to stand up. We're going to make sure that those protections are there and focus on the things that he should be focusing on. What are you doing about the farm crisis? We're going to have farm aid out here this week, and we have a farm crisis that is bad as it's been since the 1980s. And I don't hear one damn word out of Donald Trump. It's constantly this kind of stuff. So he needs to buckle down, do his job, and help Americans in the ways that they wanted him to. Yeah, I actually want to follow up on that in a second, but I want to first ask you about, I don't know if you saw this, but the president has now, you know, once again, Elon Musk Omar, who, of course, is a member of the Minnesota congressional delegation has been. one of his sort of most compulsive and obsessive targets for vitriol and bile. And I don't even actually want to read what he said because it's really disgusting, but he's calling her scum that she shouldn't be in our country. And, you know, she should basically go back to her home country. Somalia, she is, of course, an American citizen serving proudly in the Congress. And it just seems to me that, again, in this context,

That, you know, it's unnerving to hear him speak that way, especially as he's trying to like shut down dissent. Yeah, you see, you. I would, here's what I would hope, Chris, that the libertarians out there, the folks that find the Gadsden flag, they would be appalled by this. You don't have to agree with Ilhan Omar. She's representing her people. She's voted in. She's a citizen. She's doing good work. She didn't do anything on this to Donald Trump other than she disagrees with his horrific policies, just like I do. But we all know why he's going after her because she's a Muslim woman, and that's just what he does. And he tries to stir up hate. And look. Donald really runs this stuff up when I still want to know where the Epstein list is for President Trump. I still want to know what you're going to do about prices out here. I want you to make sure you get some contracts for soybeans with China, which are at zero and have a chance of destroying farm economy across middle America. So look, this is all part of the plan, but it's horrific. And you can be certain when Donald Trump puts that out. Congresswoman Omar and her family are put at risk. So we're talking about this political violence thing. We have got to get back to the decency. We have got to get back of seeing the humanity in each and every one of us. I'm not going to hold my breath that Donald Trump can do that, but I am holding out hope that Americans can do that. And I think that's the whole juxt of what's happening here. And instead, we're banning comedians from being on TV. And then you put out garbage like that. I would hope that Americans would see beyond this. And it is encouraging me, Chris, some of the clips you played of the conservative comedians and some of the conservative voices like Karl Rove, they get it, that this is North Korea-style stuff. It has no place in America. And people need to make sure that if he gets away with this, man, Katie Bar the door, it's all open. Every one of those rights is then at risk. Good, I want to have you back soon to talk about the farm crisis, something I've been spending a lot of time reading about and talking to people about, which is really, I feel flown under the radar. We're going to cover it. And if you would be willing to come back, I'd love to talk about it because it is very, very, very bad out there right now between interest rates and soybean contracts and the squeeze that's being put on farmers. So please come back, Minnesota Governor Tim Walz. Thank you. I'd be honored. Coming up, how Trump's free speech crackdown is going over with the podcasters who helped elect him. That's next. Instagram teen accounts, automatic protections for teens. Instagram teen accounts have built-in content settings and limits for who can contact teens. Plus, teens under 16 can't change these default safety settings without parental approval. so parents can help teens connect safely. Instagram teen accounts, automatic protections for who can contact teens and the content they can see. Learn more at Instagram.com slash teen accounts. Here's what happened when one journalist reported on DEI programs.

I decided to just focus on the University of Michigan. I obtained internal documents that showed that the school had spent about a quarter of a billion dollars on DEI programs. I spent two weeks in Ann Arbor talking to everybody I could find. The unintended consequences of these programs, they had sort of left everybody dissatisfied. And this expensive machinery the school had built just imploded. If you're a journalist, you are not on anyone's team. All you're trying to do is figure out as many of the facts as you can gather. The facts are going to guide you to where the story lands. You're not taking sides. I'm Nick Confessori. I'm an investigations reporter for the New York Times. Journalists like Nick follow the facts wherever they lead. They go where news breaks, get answers firsthand, and publish what they find. That's fact-based reporting. Seek it out if you don't already. Everyone's talking about protein lately, but how do you actually get enough of it? Muscle milk. Muscle milk has a great-tasting new formula with no artificial sweeteners, flavors, or added colors. It's high-quality, complete protein designed to support healthy muscles with fewer ingredients than the previous formula and 26 to 42 grams of protein. For when you're stuck in meetings or need a post-work recovery, available in chocolate, vanilla cream, cookies and cream, and strawberries and cream. Try the new great-tasting muscle milk today. Available in stores nationwide. Muscle milk, protein for all. In response to yesterday's news, ABC will be preempting Jimmy Kimmel indefinitely. We're seeing a little bit of a rebellion of swords from any of the Trump-friendly podcasters who are condemning the decision. I think we've been pretty staunchly in favor of free speech, and it is funny to watch right-wing people just become left-wing people. I mean, as far as what Jimmy said, I think it's untrue, or at least unfair. I don't agree with what he said. I don't like what he said. We should also say that. I don't agree with what he said. I don't like what he said. He should be allowed to say it. Freedom of speech, I've seen it truly under attack in India, where it's like you can go to jail. This is closer to that than... I think what the left was doing. This is Brendan Carr, the head of the FCC, flat out saying the FCC does not police speech in the name of public interest and that the government should not censor speech at all. Now, we fast forward to yesterday. After Nextstar threatened to preempt Jimmy Kimmel with their 28 local stations and essentially forced the suspension of Jimmy Kimmel, Brendan Carr comes out and says, I'd like to thank Nextstar for doing the right thing. They have an obligation to serve the public interest. That is about as blatantly hypocritical as it gets. Brandy Zadrosi is a senior enterprise reporter at MSNBC. She covers the far right extremist movements online. She's tracked the sort of MAGA world of affiliated podcasts for years, and she joins me now. It does strike me. It's been interesting to see these reactions because it does strike me that a huge, there was a huge part of the animating vigor of the movement of folks that weren't necessarily like diehard MAGA people, but that sort of adjacent lane that had Trump on their podcast and endorsed him.

that was really upset with what they felt with censorship, liberal censoriousness, cancel culture, all this stuff, who do seem to be having a bit of an awakening right now. Yeah, I think that there's two lanes. You know, these were fellow travelers for a moment. And this was a real moment of that divided them, you know, from Bari Weiss to Matt Tybee to, you know, these sort of folks that were sort of at the forefront of crying, you know, Biden-era censorship and all of that have now said, whoa, whoa, whoa, that is a little bit of a bridge too far. And I think it's a really important moment, you know, like if you believe in freedom of speech generally, which, you know, we do, then I think that's great to have fellow travelers wherever they may come from. But it's just a really interesting time. It's unclear, like, how long this will persist, if this was just a blip, if this continues to get worse, I think that we're going to hear them more out. And for the record, like, those people aren't. like Charlie Kirk, right? These people are not far, right, organizers, political. They're podcasters. These are people who do this for a living. So one, it makes really good content to have something to push back on. It makes you look like a crusader. That's always good. I mean, this is just a good move for them in the media world. I also think it speaks to their, I think it's, In a lot of ways, it's genuine. I think it speaks to where their audience is at. And I think it speaks to a broader phenomenon I've been thinking about a lot because I think Epstein is a sort of similar story here, that there was a story that Donald Trump was able to tell in the 2024 election in which he was the kind of like anti-establishment figure against the kind of like hegemonic world of this. corrupt bargain between the social media companies and the libs in Hollywood and the Joe Biden administration. And it's hard to run as an insurgent or anti-establishment figure if you're an incumbent or the VP. Now you've got the situation where like, he is the President of the States. He's the one with power. And all of that energy around sort of insurgency, anti-establishment, low trust, skepticism, whether it's Epstein or free speech, is harder to keep in the tent when you're the one in power. 100%. I mean, you can't be the victim when you are the head of everything. I mean, they try, though. They very much try. The recommendation is a big tent pull of the movement, and I get that. But yeah, it's just a really hard situation. They're going to find themselves in, that they're finding themselves in. And it seems like you've got to back up a little bit or totally lean into it. I don't know how it's going to play out. There's also this interesting part of this where, you know, you've seen one of the things that I think people really had a problem with in this sort of segment of online influencers was like the getting people fired for things they said. Now, that's not state action. So I'm sort of putting in a different category because I think the car thing is just like really on its own. It's like it's on its own level. Like I've never seen anything like it, right? You can point to examples where liberals or people on the left found something that someone said and complained to the boss and they got fired. And that was a thing that really infuriated these folks. And now you're seeing that campaign as well completely being run.

by the right. Yeah, I mean, that was the origin story for so many. So many. I mean, there was something in Semaphore today where it talked about the origin story of one person in the Trump White House being that he was kicked off the Gawker comments. Yes, I saw that. And Gawker, you know, it just was like it was a really big part of it. One of the biggest brains for the far right right right right. His name's Mike Benz and his whole thing started because he was kicked off of YouTube in 2018, 2019 for being a, you know, far right sort of agitator. racist flogger. And so, like, this is the origin story of so many of these people. And so I don't think that we can, I think we have to absolutely talk about it is retribution for them. It is not the idea of like, well, be careful what happens when they are in power. No, it's not hypocrisy. It's retribution. Exactly. That's right. And they remember what they think happened to them when the other people were in power. And now they're getting their just desserts and it's tasty. Brandy's Adrosny. Thank you very much. Thank you. Stillhead, it sure looks like the Trump administration is trying to gin up mortgage fraud cases against perceived political enemies. Tonight, new evidence that might be backfiring. This one is wild. Stick around. So today, the Trump administration asked the Supreme Court for permission to immediately fire the only black woman serving on the Federal Reserve's Board of Governors, a woman who's appointed by Joe Biden. Now, this is part of Donald Trump's unprecedented attempt to just get control of the Federal Reserve Board so he can personally dictate the country's monetary policy in violation of the entire structure of the independent central bank that we've had for over 100 years. Trump claims that he legally can fire that governor, Lisa Cook, for cause. The cause, he says, is alleged mortgage fraud. The White House says that in 2021, Cook took out a mortgage on a condo in Atlanta, this is before she even joined the Fed, and she told the lender it would be her primary residence when she already had a primary home in Michigan. Now, if those allegations weirdly sound familiar, well, it's because Cook isn't alone. She is just the latest perceived political enemy of the president to face mortgage fraud accusations. NBC News reported this same month that Pam Bondi had appointed former interim U.S. Attorney Ed Martin to serve as a special attorney to investigate similar allegations against California Senator Adam Schiff and New York State Attorney General Letitia James. Okay, so allegations against Lisa Cook and California Senator Adam Schiff, New York Attorney General Letitia James. It does seem more than a little odd that three people Trump has it out for just all happen to commit the same infraction, doesn't it? Like, where are all these allegations of specifically mortgage fraud coming from? Well, from one man, it turns out. This guy, his name is Bill Pulte. He is the heir to a construction empire, and he's a big Trump donor who regularly blasts out pro-Maga messages to his 3 million Twitter followers. And Bill Pulte was handpicked by Trump to run the Federal Housing Finance Authority. It's a big job. Jobs basically to oversee U.S. mortgage markets, which is an important job, to jumpstart home sales, improve housing affordability.

But he also has access to mortgage documents from millions of American homeowners. And boy, it sure seems that he has been searching them for the dirt that administration could use against its adversaries. In fact, he is the one that referred Schiff and James the DOJ for prosecution. And in the case of Lisa Cook, ginned up a pretext for her illegal firing. I've never seen people support crime like this. This is insane. Alleged crime. Let's call it that. What she did was wrong. The fact that she hasn't come out and said, hey, these aren't my documents or some rational explanation for this alleged crime. Why is she not doing it? It doesn't make any sense. I think what they're saying is it seems unusual. You're not. I don't think your primary role at what you're doing now is to seek out and find mortgage fraud. That's completely false. That's completely false, Joe. That's completely false. My job, and I swore an oath before the Senate and otherwise that I would root out mortgage fraud and that I would ensure that there's safety and soundness in the mortgage market. I'm going to root out mortgage fraud. And I'm going to start with, uh, huh, the Fed governor, the president wants to fire. This is so far beyond the pale, the political head of an agency digging through government files for dirt on political opponents that even the conservative editorial board of the Wall Street Journal blasted Bill Pulte's work as government weaponization, saying it was an ominous turn in political lawfare. This is nasty business. But Bill Pulte's accusations against Cook are not just government outreach. They are also bunk. Last week, NBC News reviewed financial documents that contradict Bill Pulte and the Trump administration's claims. They show that Cook has consistently declared that that Atlanta second condo is a second home. The paperwork Bill Pulte cited for his claims was likely an oversight that brought Cook no special benefits. Remember, you've bought a home before maybe, and there's a ton of paperwork. So now senior law enforcement officials tell NBC News the mortgage fraud investigation into Letitia James is also at a standstill. Wait for it, because federal agents and prosecutors don't believe they have enough evidence to get a conviction if the case were go to trial. Like Cook, James said the allegations stem from one document that erroneously lists a second home as for primary residence. And as with Cook, the rest of the loan documents accurately say the home would not be James' primary residence. Okay, so Bill Pulte's accusations that this is a crime have turned out to be wildly overblown, so overblown that even Republicans are sowering on him and his allegations. In fact, according to Politico at a private dinner in Washington last week, Bill Pulte got into a shouting match with Secretary of the Treasury of Scott Bessent over rumors that Bill Pulte was trashing Scott Bessent to the president. Scott Bessent reportedly told Bill Pulte, and I quote him here, I'm going to punch you in your effing face. Neither poll to your Scott Bessent commented on the incident when political assing about it. Well, guess what? Just yesterday, Bloomberg reported that mortgage documents show, wait for it, Scott Bessent once made contradictory declarations on his mortgage document declaration just like Lisa Cook did. But experts tell Bloomberg that, as with Cook's mortgage, there's no sign of wrongdoing on Scott Bessent's part. Rather, his case demonstrates that an incongruity in home loan filings isn't necessarily proof or fraud. Yes, who to thunk?

Lawyers for Scott Bessent echoed the sentiment saying there was absolutely nothing improper about Mr. Scott Bessent's loan applications with which he was minimally involved. You see, a real kind of fraud in this realm would be if you owned homes in two states and you falsely claimed both as your primary residence and then, crucially, you took the tax break for residents on both homes. And that does happen. In fact, Bill Pulte's parents did it. According to records reviewed by Reuters, Mark and Julie Bill Pulte, the father and stepmother of Bill Pulte, since 2020, have claimed so-called homestead exemptions for residences in wealthy neighborhoods in both Michigan and Florida. In fact, when Reuters brought the issue to a Michigan tax official's attention, he told them, revised tax bills will be issued to the Pultes, including all applicable penalty and interest. Boy, thanks, son. So, Trump now wants the Supreme Court to fire the Fed board's only black woman for mortgage fraud. She does not appear to have committed. But that was alleged by a Trump appointee with access to everyone's mortgage records. A Trump appointee using his time in public service to hunt for evidence of misdeeds by Trump's political enemies as his own family benefited from the same kind of dubious housing claims. This entire fear is exactly as preposterously trumped up as you thought it was.

Last week on the Fox News Show Fox and Friends, one of their top stars, Brian Kilmeade, said something truly shocking. The hosts were discussing a horrific murder committed by a homeless person in North Carolina and the issue of mentally ill homeless people. And this is what he said. This is one case, but this is happening all across the country, and it's not a money issue. They have given billions of dollars to mental health and the homeless population. A lot of them don't want to take the programs. A lot of them don't want to get the help there as necessary. You can't give them a choice. Either you take the resources that we're going to give you, or you decide. That you're going to be locked up in jail. That's the way it has to be now. Or involuntary lethal injection or something. Just kill them. Brian, why did it have to get to this point? Right. I would say this. We're not voting for the right people. In North Carolina, wake up. You can't keep putting these people in power. Okay. If you're hearing this the first time, that's exactly what it sounded like. Mr. Kilming suggested, quote, involuntary lethal injection or something, just kill him. Did not appear to be a flubbed misbeak or slip of the tongue. And we've given you the full context of the remarks. You can listen to it again. This is one case, but this is happening all across the country, and it's not a money issue. They have given billions of dollars to mental health and the homeless population. A lot of them don't want to take the programs. A lot of them don't want to get the help there that is necessary. You can't give them a choice. Either you take the resources that we're going to give you, or you decide. That you're going to be locked up in jail. That's the way it has to be now. Or involuntary lethal injection or something. Just kill them. Brian, why did it have to get to this point? Right. I would say this. We're not voting for the right people. There was some reaction at the time, astonishment and outrage, but it was mostly lost in the tidal wave of news we've had over the last week. Over the weekend, four days after his statement, Brian Kilmeade, appeared on air and issued this apology. All right, Brian, you have something else that you like to say. Yeah, and it actually happened when we were together on Wednesday, Lawrence, in the morning we were discussing the murder of Arena Zerushka and Charlotte, North Carolina. How to stop these kinds of attacks? by homeless mentally ill assailants, including institutionalizing or jailing such people so they cannot attack again. Now, during that discussion, I wrongly said they should get lethal injections. I apologize for that extremely callous remark. I'm obviously aware that not all mentally ill homeless people act as the perpetrator did in North Carolina, and that so many homeless people deserve our empathy and compassion. Lawrence, back to you. Thanks, Brian. I see you tomorrow. I wrongly said they should get lethal injections, and I apologize. Fox News has made no public statement as far as we can tell that Brian Kilmeade will face any consequences for his speech. They've certainly not announced that he will be preempted indefinitely or anything like that. In fact, he was on the air earlier tonight weighing in on the Jimmy Kimmel story.

Since the news broke about the indefinite suspension of Jimmy Kimmel's late night show, the left has been apopleeptic. What these Democrats should be doing is looking at how Kimmel's own actions got him into, I guess, the problems he's having right now. It's not fascism. It's not the Gestapo taking out a late night host for what he said. It's old-fashioned accountability. Hey, everybody, it's Rob Lo here. If you haven't heard. I have a podcast that's called Literally with Roblo. And basically it's conversations I've had that really make you feel like you're pulling up a chair at an intimate dinner between myself and people that I admire like Aaron Sorkin or Tiffany Haddish, Demi Moore, Chris Pratt, Michael J. Fox. There are new episodes out every Thursday. So subscribe, please, and listen wherever. You get your podcasts. I like things my way, my coffee, my schedule, and my treatment. So I talked to my doctor about self-injecting with the Vivgard-Hytrullo-pre-filled syringe, which contains F-Gar-Tegamide's QVC. It's injected under your skin subcutaneously. It means I can inject in my space on my time. It's my treatment, my way. Visit Vivgardmyway.com. That's V-Y-V-G-A-R-T-M-Way.com. And talk to your doctor about Vivgard Hytrullo, brought to you by Argenics. Summer means firing up the grill, getting together with friends, and making the most of the weekends. Total Wine and More is my first stop, whether it's seltzers and ready to serve cocktails with a cooler or a good bottle of bourbon. Everything I need is at Total Wine. With the lowest prices, it's easy to stock up for whatever the weekend brings. And I can get everything I need in one stop. Shop total wine and more and get ready for your next summer party. Spears are not sold in Virginia or North Carolina. Drink responsibly must be 21. Two of the largest owners of local ABC stations around the country, Neckstar and Sinclair announced they would stop airing Jimmy Kimmel's show yesterday. And then shortly after that, ABC announced it would preempt Kimmel indefinitely. But when you just scratch a little beneath the surface, you realize that both Nexstar and Sinclair have reasons to want to please the Trump administration. Sinclair, famously a conservative corporation, also owns 178 stations around the country, known for its conservative bend. It's in the process of buying and selling TV stations, which need approval from Trump's FCC. But Nexstar, that's the country's largest owner of local TAC stations, also needs Trump administration approval for a $6 billion deal to get even bigger. Under current rules, no one company can own stations that reach more than 39% of TV households. Next Star wants to acquire Tegna, creating a mega company that would broadcast to 80% of households. Ben Smith is editor-in-chief of Semaphore and hosts the podcast, Mick Signals, Jess McIntosh, a Democratic strategist and consultant, and they join me now. It's good to have you both here. Thanks. Just on this technical question, I do think it's sort of a fascinating wrinkle because everyone covered that the Paramount deal. And that's sort of a standard thing where, like, you have to get merger approval from the FCC, sometimes from the FTC, DOJ. This is actually one step beyond that in terms of what Next Star needs from the government.

Yeah, that's right. Paramount was basically within its rights to go through with this merger. Whereas Next Star, and again, in this... declining business of broadcast TV where it's all company who's never heard of with names like Next Star and Tegna, you know, and that's because this is a declining business owned by private equity guys who are sort of managing it into the ground and trying to roll it up in this kind of grim way. But they need, but there are old rules from back when broadcast was powerful that prevent you from consolidating the industry in the way that, um, that Next Star would like to in buying its biggest rival and building a huge chain. And so they are asking Brendan Carr, a friend at the FCC, to, you know, for a special exemption. A waiver, basically. Yeah, to change the rules. And, you know, honestly, in a normal world, I think there's a pretty reasonable argument that, like, the consolidation of broadcast TV isn't what it used to be. Right. Doesn't have the same meaning. Yeah. And I don't think that's crazy, but obviously, this is the regular, this is the guy who makes the decision. And he said, do this, and they're doing it. Yeah, like when Glenn Maxwell needed to be transferred to a prison legally, she couldn't be in. Someone had to sign a waiver of a Bureau of Prisons from the administration to say, like, no, she should go there. Yesterday was one of these moments, you know, I struggled with how to cover the Lisa Cook firing when it happened, because if you were in the world of Fed Watchers and people in the economy, they were like, this is such an enormous deal. I mean, seismic, both legally, the global financial evidence. It was very hard to communicate to people. like the stakes in import. Yesterday was one of these days where my phone was just blowing up from the people I know who were not like news junkies or nerds, but do follow the news being like, whoa, this is bad. Well, I think the concept of free speech is baked into American identity. Yes. Possibly more than anything else I could think of. And it's not. So everybody understands that freedom of speech is part of who we are. It's the way we do the things that we do. Most everybody believes in it very, very strongly. That's why you're seeing the guys on the right coming out against this. I think Trump has a problem in that he continually goes after the things that... people were motivated to support him in the first place. You know, the same guys that were criticizing him yesterday on the free speech crackdown and the censorship were the same people who were criticizing him on the Epstein files just a couple weeks ago. Now, all of those voices got tamped down very quickly on the right after a couple of days of people speaking out. I assume that that is what will happen here. But there's only so many times that you can... keep attacking the very principles that people supported you for before they're going to start noticing that you don't have any principles.

I think we're getting there. You don't think so. I mean, not for the diehards. I don't know. I mean, that seems like an optimistic take on reality. But I don't know. I mean, I think mostly people like to smash their enemies more than they care about the principle of free speech. Like, I think that's all of our experience for the last 10 years. Yeah, I think that's been it. Although I do think there's people, I do think that sort of anti-establishment thing matters for the sort of this like. Yeah. For the life of media voice, I just don't think there are that many people who have enemies they want to smash. Like, this is our little diseased brains. Yes, that's also true. That's also true. The average American doesn't want to own any libs. They don't want to own anybody. That's a good point. Like, they do care about free speech, though. Yes, that is our diseased minds rotting, rotting, rotting, yeah, pickling in the brine of online life. I mean, there's also the, to me, the thing that was so striking about it, too, like, aside from just... how much it resonated. You know, people pointed out, like, Vladimir Putin comes under power, and there's this show called puppets, which is like a late night satirical show with like the mupp, you know, with actual puppets. And it takes them two years, but he gets it off the air. Took them two years. And it's like, and it drove him crazy. It drove him crazy. And it's such a trope. And we had Basim Yusuf al-Laslan Knight who got arrested and charged by the Morsi government. Like, it is such a recognizable trope of what happens in a society that's no longer free. That is obviously true, but there's also something else specific happening here, right, which is that the Trump administration is full of people who are, who consider themselves sort of veterans of the Twitter wars, many of whom got tossed off Twitter, YouTube, and Facebook, and for whom that was like their most formative political experience and are, in some ways, taking revenge, in some ways think what's good for the goose is good for the gander, whatever it is. I think it is obviously... people trying to consolidate power, media is a big form of that. There is another specifically kind of American 2025 social media thing happening here that I think is actually different from a lot of the, from Egypt and Russia. I think that's true, but I also think that like there is a real, there's been a very consistent through line here. Like if you go back to Ramesa Aztark, the, the Tufts grad student, whose infraction was to. sign on to an open letter about Tufts university policy vis-a-vis Israel and Gaza getting nabbed off the street or Mahmoud Khalil. Like, there really is this sense that, like, the state will act against disfavored speech. This is the other pattern that we see in countries that are becoming no longer free. They start with... the average people, the people who don't have massive platforms, not Jimmy Kimmel. Or people who are here on visas, right? Like the most, the furthest out on the concentric circle. The weakest, the most marginalized, the easiest targets, and they work their way up. And the fact that we're nine months in and you're already on the late night talk show hosts means that literally nobody in the country is safe. And I think we're, you know, we're also seeing regular people getting fired for tweeting things in the wake of Charlie Kirk's death. And the regular people getting fired for saying stuff is an animating force of the right. Yes. They hate that. Yes. But that's where that, so that to me is what's important to distinguish here, to your point about like this like this crucible that they all went through, right? Which is that is a thing that has happened before. Like, and I have, we have all seen it. Regular people getting fired for things they said online. I generally think the bar for that's got to be super high. Like if you're a non-public person.

Like, there are some things that probably get you fired, but it's got to be pretty high bar. That's my own feeling. It's the state coercion to me that's so new here, but... it's also totally run together in the minds of the right on the people all right. They see no distinction. I think that's right. And I also think, you know, I think actually what you saw with Mahmood Khalil is that in some ways he is less vulnerable than Jimmy Kimmel. The people who are most vulnerable are the employees of big consolidated mega corporations who are about to get deported. Who are very exposed to regulatory action. And I think, you know, Bernie Sanders used to go around ranting about the corporate media. And honestly, as somebody who worked my career in corporate media, I never really got it. Like, I was not subject. to government pressure. And now I think a lot of the warnings that came from like the Kristi Noem Chomsky left. Yes, about this interaction. About being consolidated media companies being subject to pressure. And honestly, like at most of these companies, like at CBS news is like 4% of the business and 95% of the headaches for executives, there's just, it makes these broadcasters very vulnerable. Yeah. And that's a really good point. And also that there's been this, what's also wild too is like there's been a weapon sitting there the whole time. that no one's ever quite picked up and used in this way, right? Like, that's what's so striking about it. They're never going to wind up in court. This stuff doesn't wind up in court. It's regulatory flexes and threats and jawbones that has massive consequences. Government censorship is not a part of American politics historically. Well, it has been, but not at all in the way that we're seeing now. No one has picked up the weapon. I would argue that a lot of people didn't even notice that the weapon was there. The idea that the state would enforce what Americans are allowed to hear and allowed to say and allowed to read is just brand new and absolutely anathema to the way we live. Particularly if it's just specifically the disfavored criticism of the person in power as articulated by that person today, Jess McIntosh, Ben Smith. Thank you both. That does it for All In. You can catch us every weeknight at 8 o'clock on MSNBC. Don't forget to like us on Facebook. That's facebook.com slash all in with Chris. Hey, everybody, it's Rob Lo here. If you haven't heard, I have a podcast that's called Literally with Roblo. And basically, it's conversations I've had that really make you feel like you're pulling up a chair at an intimate dinner between myself and people that I admire, like Aaron Sorkin or Tiffany Haddish, Demi Moore, Chris Pratt, Michael J. Fox. There are new episodes out every Thursday. So subscribe, please, and listen wherever you get your podcasts.