Team Trump ensured Tom Homan skipped normal background check amid bribery probe

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Good evening from Los Angeles. I'm Jason Johnson and for Chris Hayes. Throughout the year, Donald Trump's idea of law and order has been to prosecute his perceived political enemies on dubious corruption charges while using armed mass federal agents to abduct migrants from American streets. But the administration's point man for that mass deportation campaign, Bordersar Tom Homan, is caught up in an alleged corruption scandal of his own. whose existence was first reported by MS Now. And tonight, we have more exclusive reporting that during Donald Trump's transition to power, some of his people knew Holman was accused of serious political corruption, and they hired him anyway. Back in September, MS Now was the first to report Holman's alleged involvement in a million dollar scheme to award contracts to cronies in exchange for kickbacks. As part of an FBI sting investigation into that scheme, federal agents were courted Holman accepting $50,000 in cash and a paper bag from an undercover agent last year. Shortly before Trump's election, according to sources and documents reviewed by MS Now. A sort of briefed on the sting told MS. Now, the money for Holman, quote, was placed in a bright yellow bag from Kava, the fast casual chain specializing at Mediterranean Fair. And one of the undercover agents remarked to Tom Homan as he made the handoff, we both know there's no Kava in that bag. But it was still something spicy. How could a guy who was a subject of an open federal bribery investigation even passed the background check to work in a sensitive government field like Homeland Security? Well, according to exclusive reporting today by MS Now reporters Carol Lennox and Kandan, none of the usual checks applied to Tom Homan and his nomination by Trump, as borders are. They report that just days before Trump was sworn in, quote, a Justice Department lawyer passed an envelope across a wide desk to a top Trump transition official. That official was Emia Bovi, a lawyer who had defended Trump in his criminal trial in New York, and who currently serves as a federal appeals court judge, thanks to a nomination from Trump. And the envelope that Bovie received was a one-page summary of the ongoing bribery investigation against Holman. As he read the contents of the envelope, Bovi closed his eyes and grimaced, according to two people briefed on the meeting. Giving Bovi that memo was an unprecedented move, but, quote, a small group of career lawyers at the Justice Department felt an urgency to share this sensitive information with the president-elect's team as soon as possible. Because, quote, Justice officials felt sure Holman would not be able to obtain a security clearance based on the evidence gathered in the corruption probe. But the Trump team didn't quietly cut Tom Homan loose. It's not even clear what Bovey did with the information DOJ had given him about Tom Homan. What we do know is that Tom Homan did get the job and the security clearance it required somehow.

And Trump's FBI director, Kash Patel, closed the Bureau's criminal bribery probe into Holman, even though he never really denied taking that paper bag full of cash, even when given the chance by right-wing media. They said that you took $50,000 in cash in a bag from an undercover FBI agent to help them win government contracts in Trump's second term. The DOJ said they concluded there was no criminal wrongdoing, but nevertheless that story is out there, and I imagine you want to respond to that. Oh, I'm sorry. Look, I did nothing criminal. I did nothing illegal. And it's hit piece after hit piece after hit piece. Yeah, that's not the same thing as saying, I did not take that money full of cash and a cababack. Even though the federal government's top law enforcement official, Trump's handpicked Attorney General, Pam Bondi, understands the assignment when it comes to running interference for alleged corruption like Tom Homan's. What became of the $50,000 in cash? that the FBI delivered, evidently in a paper bag, to Mr. Tom Homan. Senator, I'd look at your facts. There's a tape, right, with Mr. Tom Homan? I mean, first of all, is there a tape that has audio and video of the transfer of the $50,000? You would have to talk to Director Kash Patel about that. No, I'm talking to you. I don't know the answer, Senator. You do know the answer to that. Don't call me a liar. Carol Lennox is a Pulitzer Prize winning MS now senior investigative reporter who produced that exclusive. She is also the co-author of the new book, Injustice, How Politics and Fear Vanquished America's Justice Department. And she joins me now. Carol, thank you so much for this. We've been following the story for a while. I find it fascinating. For the audience to understand, what is the usual vetting process for someone at a position as high as Tom Homan's? What are the kinds of things that a functional government usually checks for someone like that before they get their position? You know, Jason, I'm really glad you framed the question that way because everything about this was different than other presidential administrations. The normal way is somebody wins the presidency. In November, every four years, there's an election. That person who wins the presidency has a list of names that they and their top aides have considered as prospective appointees and they submit them to the FBI for background checks. It was very public knowledge. on the campaign trail in 2024 that president, I'm sorry, then candidate and former President Trump wanted Tom Homan to serve in some form in his immigration and ultimately his deportation strategy. So that was not a surprise. But Donald Trump balked at the notion that all other presidents had followed before him of submitting names for these FBI background checks. If the

President-elect had done that the way normal people do, he would have gotten the alert and the benefit of the FBI's research and known that the guy he was considering for a very senior law enforcement post was indeed under criminal investigation for potentially soliciting bribes and had been recorded accepting $50,000 in cash in the bag you described so well. Yeah, the irony of this being a Kava bag, which is Middle Eastern and Mediterranean food, given the aggressive, sometimes racist nature of this DOJ is not lost on me. I want to add something else to this, and this is pretty fascinating. There was no regular check. I'm going to read this quote here. Presidents elects normally submit to the FBI a lengthy list of employees soon after winning election in November. Trump's transition team did not strike an agreement with the FBI to submit a list of appointees until December 3rd, and then only a partial list. It's interesting to me that they couldn't even strike a deal. And so what does that usually look like? Does it mean that the incoming administration is like, hey, look, this young lady, you know, she had an issue with drugs in the 80s, but she's clean now, like what kind of deal making usually happens? Or is it just a matter of most candidates come in, they submit their finances, they submit their criminal record, and then they're cleared? There's usually no dealmaking. Here's our list. We want to know everything about them and we want them to be clean and we don't want to be embarrassed or compromised if this person turns out to have a problem we don't know about. It's almost like a service that the FBI provides. And for Donald Trump, very suspicious of the FBI, he didn't want their service. He didn't need their help and their assessment of the cleanliness or, you know, moral rectitude of various candidates he had in mind. Jason, there's another answer to your question, too, about how irregular this all was. You know, DOJ career lawyers who are involved in public integrity investigations are in the fall of 2024 champing at the bit to tell somebody in Trump's team about what's going on with Holman because they're nervous. Hey, they need to know. We don't want the president incoming elect to be caught off guard, but they cannot get the name of a Trump transition official who's been, you know, approved and cleared to get this kind of sensitive information. And so it is not until. January, mid-January, days before the inauguration that they sit across the desk from this appointed transition official Emil Bovey and are able to tell him this is a pretty awful news. Sorry to let you know that the guy, Donald Trump, has publicly named as his borders are in November, I think November 10th, is actually somebody that we've had as part of an undercover sting. Carol, let's step back 5,000 feet from this. What are the consequences of having someone like this who is so clearly compromised in this position? Because I think what people need to understand in most federal jobs, I mean, if your debt ratio is out of rack, your security clearance can be snatched from you, right? If you owe too much money here or there, you can't. So what does it mean for the functioning of our government that we could potentially have someone in office?

who is highly susceptible to bribes, both domestic and potentially international. Well, it's particularly dangerous for taxpayers, and that's why a person like Tom Homan in this situation, this is why DOJ officials believed there was no way he was going to get a security clearance and that he would be suitable for such a job. How could he have access to some of the government's most important secrets and sensitive information? if he was a person who might be willing to take money in exchange for things of value. Could a foreign adversary approach him and say, let me give you $100,000 in a Chipotle bag? You know, this is the worry that the government has. I'll give you a comparison for this, Jason, which is in Donald Trump's first term, security officials in the career service. highly recommended that Jared Kushner, Donald Trump's son-in-law, not receive a top secret security clearance. Donald Trump, then the president in his first term, overruled them. Their decision was based on the fact that he had made a lot of outreach to foreign sovereign wealth funds for financing because he was in dire financial straits and sideways in very much in the red on a very large mortgage in a property. And so the worry as described by those security officials was that he was, very manipulable. That was their word, manipulable. And in this instance, DOJ officials believed that Holman had already illustrated he was willing to take cash in appearing to promise to steer contracts. What else might he be willing to do? And that, unfortunately, is not just reflective of Tom Homan, but this administration as a whole. Carol Lennon, thank you so much for joining us this evening and all in. My pleasure. Joining me now is Congresswoman La Monica McIver, Democrat of New Jersey. She is currently fighting criminal charges brought by the Trump DOJ after her congressional visit to an ICE facility back in May. Congresswoman, thank you so much for joining us this evening. So I just want to start with this. For the audience, and I'm sure everyone still remembers this, please explain again to people why the DOJ is coming after you. Explain that you were doing your job and congressional oversight and how you have been targeted, just so that everyone's clear. And so thank you so much, Jason, for having me on. It's good to see you. So I showed up at a detention center here in my district to have an oversight visit of a detention center that's being ran by GEO group, a very close ally to the Trump administration. And I was basically charged after that visit.

with the claims that I allegedly assaulted ICE agents there. And I tried to stop a arrest of one of my mayors here in my district. That is why I'm being charged and facing 17 years in prison for doing my job. So I want to play some sound from Tom Homan, who, of course, is... not under investigation anymore, but our reporting is sort of exposed his sort of connection to being paid off. I want to play some of the sound and get your thoughts on the other side about how someone in this position can be in charge of going after you. You put a hand on an ICE officer. If you interfere with an ICE officer, you'll get a set of handcuffs, and you're going to go to jail, and you're going to be federally prosecuted. I wish the heapo reddit from congressmen, mayors, and governors will stop because I set it back to March. There's going to be bloodshed. Unfortunately, there has been bloodshed. I don't want more bloodshed. But unless they stop doing what they're doing, there will be more. Congresswoman, does that sound like a threat to you? Because it certainly sounds like a threat to me, and I'm not even in your position. I mean, absolutely. I mean, this is what has been from day one with this administration. It's about intimidation, about bullying, about trying to stop Congress from doing their job, from having oversight and holding this administration and the executive accountable. And that is why I'm being charged to be made an example out of so that members of Congress will be scared to do their job and won't do their job when it comes to making sure that this administration and anyone in the presidency is being held accountable for their action. I mean, I find it absurd that this, you know, man is talking about me doing my job and literally taking $50,000. I will tell you one thing, Jason, if either me or you did that, we would be facing charges for bribery and plus more if we were in that same situation. Let alone if we took it out of a kava bag. Yes, Congressman, I also want to add there are dangers here. Tom Homan is sort of running this sort of ice agency for the regime, but there are dangers in these ice facilities. We have over 30 people die in ice facilities. How important is it that members of Congress are allowed to have access to these facilities in order to prevent some of these human rights violations? I mean, it's more important now than ever. I mean, that's the reason why I went to Delaney Hall in my district because we were getting reports of detainees not getting food, not getting access to their lawyers, to their family. I also had a Haitian detainee died there. Literally, after being there for less than 24 hours, Jason, he died, a healthy 41-year-old man. So that is why I've returned there just a week ago to have oversight. But it's so important because there are so many.

things happening in these facilities. Cruelty, corruption. I mean, it's all about money as well. Geo Group has a billion dollar contract, a billion dollar plus more contract with DHS to run this facility. I mean, it's all about money. When I was at the detention center, I spoke to people who told me that they had orders already to be detained, but have been trafficking all over the country to different detention centers and still not deported because it's about money. It's about money, cruelty. and, you know, cruelty and crookedness with this administration to say the least. Quick question before we go to break. Congresswoman, I have talked to Ken Martin about this, head of the DNC. Heading into 2026, given the kind of abuses that you've seen, given what you've suffered under DOJ, do you think it be wise for the Democrats to sort of stand up and say, look, we're running against ice this year? We're running as a Congress that will rain ice in. That may have been politically unfeasible four years ago, but do you think that's a smart strategy heading into 2026? I mean, I think we should definitely focus on these issues that are happening that many Americans do not like, right? I know in the district that I represent, you know, ICE in these private detention centers is something that in my district, they do not want to see. But at the same time, despite all of this too, Jason, Americans cannot afford to live. And I think focusing on affordability and the things that are impacting Americans every day is extremely important for us. But all of these issues are important and we should be focusing on them altogether. I mean, there's a list of them. right, that this administration has been doing since January of this year. And it continues on. And we haven't even closed out one year yet, Jason, it's going to get worse with this administration. You can bet on it for sure. Congresswoman La Monica McIver, thank you so much for your service. Thanks, Jason. Ahead. In the face of continued misinformation from Donald Trump and Republicans, Democrats will hold a new January 6th hearing five years after the original Capitol Riot. Stick around. We'll talk about it. We get back. Instagram teen accounts, automatic protections for teens. Instagram teen accounts have built-in content settings and limits for who can contact teens. Plus, teens under 16 can't change these default safety settings without parental approval. So parents can help teens connect safely. Instagram teen accounts, automatic protections for who can contact teens and the content they can see. Learn more at Instagram.com slash teen accounts. Hey, everybody, it's Rob Lo here. If you haven't heard, I have a podcast that's called Literally with Roblo. And basically, it's conversations I've had that really make you feel like you're pulling up a chair at an intimate dinner between myself and people that I admire, like Aaron Sorkin or Tiffany Haddish, Demi Moore, Chris Pratt, Michael J. Fox.

There are new episodes out every Thursday. So subscribe, please, and listen wherever you get your podcasts. Watch Disclosure Day at Home Now with exclusive bonus features. If you found out we weren't alone, if someone showed you, proved it to you? Would that frighten you? Well, now the truth belongs to 7 billion people in an original event film directed by Steven Spielberg from a screenplay by David Kep starring Emily Blunt, Josh O'Connor, Colin Firth, Eve Hewson, and Coleman Domingo. Find Disclosure Day on major digital platforms now with no subscription required, also in theaters. We are now exactly one week away from the fifth, the fifth anniversary, January 6th. That day in 2021 when a mob of Donald Trump supporters violently attacked the Capitol in attempt to overturn the results of a free and fair election. In fact, Donald Trump was indicted on four felony charges related to January 6th and the attacks on the Capitol, charges that were later dismissed following his reelection. Now, with Donald Trump back in power, his Department of Justice is going after the people who investigated and prosecuted both Trump and the attempted coup. So, to commemorate the fifth anniversary, Democrats in Congress are holding special hearings on January 6th to revisit what happened on that day. It will be led by members of the January 6th Select Committee that held public hearings on the Capitol riots.

Congressman Eric Swalwell is a Democrat of California. He served as an impeachment manager for Trump's second impeachment surrounding January 6th, and he joins me now. Congressman, it is great to see you. You look incredibly warm tonight. I'll start with this. You know, you're not going to be on the special Democratic hearings. You serve a different role, and we'll get to that in a second. What do you expect? the Democrats to do in this special hearing? Will it sort of be bringing the old band back together? Will it be sort of additional information that has been gleaned? Will it be about consequences? What can we expect from this hearing? Most importantly, it's to make sure that that day and who was responsible is not erased. And Donald Trump has sought to erase his own responsibility for that day, you know, since he has come back into office. You know, he has released the most violent people who committed violence against police officers that day on his behalf, and he's tried to put into the jailhouse all of his political enemies. Also, he's turned the heroes of that day, people like Sergeant Ginell, Mike Fanon, you know, Harry Dunn, and Danny Hodges. He's tried to make them villains, and he's tried to make the monsters who attack police officers, the heroes. And so first and foremost, we're not going to let them erase the heroism of the police officers that day and to clean the hands of Donald Trump who sent them up to the Capitol. So, Congressman, this is something that is a real concern by a lot of Democratic voters, a lot of independent voters, a lot of Americans in general, which is the Democrats engage in sort of performative pushback, strongly worded letters, right? But it doesn't lead to anything. So what is something that could actually come from this hearing? Because, look, anyone who cares about American democracy is not going to forget January 6th. You're not going to forget it. I'm not going to forget it. We all watch it on television. But can something come out of this? Can something tangible be a result of this hearing? That's exactly right. On January 6th, what Republicans fail to acknowledge is that we saw it with our own eyes. Just like September 11, we watched who was responsible and you can never make us unsee that. So... What comes out of it? Well, right now, in court, police officers are demanding that a judge enacts the requirement that a monument to these officers be placed in the Capitol is passed into law signed by the President. Donald Trump refuses to do that. I have a lawsuit against Donald Trump that has moved along in the courts. We've gone all the way up to the Supreme Court. He's lost at every single step along the way. It's me and the January 6 officers to make sure that civilly he is brought. to account. But what people are looking for right now is who can stand up to this president and show not tell? Our governor in California, Gavin Newsom, he is a show not tell guy. When Texas tried to take five seats from Democrats through their rigged districting process, he went to the voters within about 90 days and got five seats back in California. That's the leadership that it takes in this moment right now. Are you willing, you know, to be unflinching?

against this corruption, against this cruelty from this president. That's how I approach this guy. I stay on offense every single time in Congress as the next governor of California. That's the only language they understand. It's the language of strength. So, Congressman, you jumped ahead to the question I was going to ask you. What would you do if you are able to be elected as governor of California? Yes, we've seen over just not just one year of this new regime that it's the states that tend to be the strongest pushback. It's the governors of Illinois. It's the governors of Michigan, governor of Virginia, Maryland, everything else like that. What will you bring to the table? Because California, just by size and GDP alone. is sort of the tip of the spear, what would you bring to the table as a governor of California? You have immense powers as governor of California, and your responsibility is to protect the most vulnerable in the state. So if the president is going to send ICE agents to chase immigrants through the fields where they work, what I'm going to do is make sure that they take off their masks and show their faces, that they show their identification. And if they commit crimes, that they're going to be charged with crimes. falsely imprisoning people, if it's kidnapping, if assault, battery, they're going to be held accountable. I also think if the governor has the ability to issue driver's licenses to people in California, if you're going to wear a mask and not identify yourself, you're not going to be eligible to drive a vehicle in California. There's a lot you can do, but most importantly, you have to go on offense. Otherwise, the most vulnerable in our community will always be on defense. Congressman Eric Swalwell, thank you so much for joining us this evening on All-N. My pleasure. Thanks, Jason. Coming up, MAGA politicians hit reality face first as their policies begin to strike close to home. More on that. We're back on all end. Donald Trump thinks the economy is going really, really great. I do want to talk about the economy, sir, here at home. And I wonder what grade you would give. A plus. A plus. A plus. A plus, plus. Yeah, as a college professor, that wouldn't be my grade. In the real world, more than two-thirds of Americans, 68 percent, say economic conditions are getting worse in America. And after tomorrow, about 20 million Americans will see their health insurance costs spike when Affordable Care Act subsidies expire. That includes Trump supporters and former leaders of his coalition. In a new interview out this week, Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene, the former MAGA firebrand, told the New York Times about one moment that inspired her to break with Trump. It was when, quote, her two adult daughters informed her that their health insurance premiums would double. The president needs to be aware that he's a billionaire. President of the United States, and you can't gaslight people and tell them that their bills are affordable. And you can't tell them that the economy is an A plus plus. You just can't do that.

Charlie Dent is a former Republican Congressman of Pennsylvania, Tara Setmeyer, worked as a GOP spokesperson on Capitol Hill, and as now the co-founder and CEO of the Seneca Project. They join me now. Thank you all so much. Congressman, we'll start with you. So here's the thing. I've always believed, and I've posited this theory for years, that you get the best indicator about the economy after the holidays, right? You find out who came home for Thanksgiving. how many gifts were under the tree at Christmas, who couldn't come home because they couldn't afford it this year. That's really where you get a sense of where the American economy is. And it seems like this year, people were tightening their belts. Do the Republicans only take their clues from Donald Trump, who's nowhere near regular Americans? Or do you think they're out in the country, in the nation, hearing people say, yeah, this year, I couldn't get a new PS5 from my kid because we had to tighten our belts because we don't know what our finances are going to be like. No, I actually think that most Republican members of Congress understand it. Americans are struggling with a high cost of housing, high cost of groceries, high cost of electricity, you know, high cost of, you know, Christmas presents. Yeah, I think they get it. You know, the question is, you know, what do you do about it? And I think that's where the problem has been. You know, I think there should have been more pushback on issues like tariffs that have raised prices, that have raised costs for a lot of Americans. That's something Congress could do, but they haven't done anything. So, yeah, but I think they totally understand. understand the dynamic that many Americans are facing. And I think right now they're at a loss too, particularly on health care, you know, they're stuck. They can't come to consensus about how to address health care costs other than the handful that signed the discharge petition who want to allow the premium subsidies to be extended. Tara, you know, I'm a political scientist and a bit of a historian. It seems like there are a number of Republican presidents who sort of stepped in this sort of economic blindness mess, right? We've got the George Bush, whether or not he could understand the price of bread or how the cash register worked. He just seemed like he wasn't connected to regular people. It was almost 30 years ago. Then you had Mitt Romney saying, hey, you know, $10,000 bet, right, when people were having difficulty with their mortgages. What does it do to the Republican brand? that you have a president who's putting $300 million extensions on the White House that we pay for, and at the same time pretending that people aren't struggling in the America that he is supposedly making better. Well, I would say that Donald Trump has destroyed the Republican brand through and through and corrupted it in ways that have made it unrecognizable. I think a lot of us would long for the days when George H.W. Bush didn't know the price of milk. I mean, my gosh, what the pearl clutching was like then compared to this now. I mean, Donald Trump has never... cared about the average American. He doesn't give a damn about anyone but himself. And his second term in his presidency has been one betrayal after the other for not only average everyday Americans, but his people, the people that voted for him. He betrayed farmers. He's betrayed military and veterans family, military families and veterans. He's betrayed small business owners and blue collar workers. And all while enriching himself and completely abusing the American taxpayer's money.

You've got people, billionaires in his cabinet. You have tens of billions of dollars being wasted on. bombing Venezuela or giving money to farmers in in Argentina when we have record numbers of farmers in America filing for bankruptcy on Donald Trump's watch. This has nothing to do with the previous administration. This has to do with what Donald Trump is doing now. The tariffs are taxes on the American people. And so he has done nothing but betray all of these people while his net worth has gone up, what, $3 billion plus? Same thing with his family and his friends around him. So the Republican brand now is a brand. of elites who are out of touch, who don't give a damn about the average person, who would much rather. continue to go along with what Donald Trump wants to do. And apparently it's not America First anymore. It's not about free markets. It's not about fiscal responsibility. It's this absolute chaos that Donald Trump has wreaked on the American people and our government and our daily lives. While people suffer, he's enriching himself and he's completely aloof. That's the Republican brand now, which is going to be very difficult for them in 2026 to justify. Congressman, with that in mind, I want to look at this sort of new story. More than half of the ACA marketplace enrollees in America live in Republican congressional districts, right? And with... Tons of people, 20 million Americans, subsidies in health care costs jumping in the next 48 hours or so. My question for you is, where are the answers going to come from? Because it doesn't seem like Speaker Johnson is going to put any effort into extending these subsidies. It's not like it's going to go anywhere in the Senate. So what is the answer? Is there any answer? that Republicans who are home right now in their districts are giving people? Are they just going to go duck for cover on January 1st when everybody in their local districts is running around with pitchforks? I think the smart Republicans understand that even if Republicans got what they wanted on health care, you know, association health plans, health savings accounts and other ideas that really are frankly about 20 years old now. If they got their way on that, let's assume they all got signed in the law, which are not. But they did. They would still have to extend. the current subsidies because it would take a long time to stand up those programs. So the smart ones understand they have to do something. And also, we should know, too, that in Red America, especially, many states did not expand Medicaid under AACA or under Obamacare. And those folks, you know, since the changes were made through the one big, so-called one big beautiful bill, many people have been moved off of Medicaid.

And they're not going to be able to go in. So they're going to go into the exchanges. So more people, there's more pressure on those red states on the exchanges. More people are in it because they never expanded Medicaid. So that's a big problem. And so they're going to feel it especially hard. So I do think at the end of the day, Republicans are going to be forced to extend the current subsidies, whether they like it or not. Tara, following up on this, Financial Times has a great story about how U.S. nonprofits are slashing jobs as government and donor funding dries up. Now, the bigger issue to this is that everything from Meals on Wheels to all sorts of programs that many states, red, blue, purple, depend on. are subsidized by federal government grants. The people who fall through the cracks of our health care system often receive assistance from nonprofits and the Carolinas and Arizona, everything else like that. Just speak quickly to how dangerous it is that this government has cut back this federal funding at this time of year, especially when people are going to be suffering very quickly. It's going to cost lives. And we're already seeing the impacts of this, not only domestically, but internationally. And you know who you can thank for that? You can thank Donald Trump for appointing Elon Musk coming in with Doge in the beginning of the year and taking a literal chainsaw to a lot of these programs unnecessarily, completely unnecessary. People are suffering. Americans are suffering right now because of decisions that Donald Trump made, policies that Donald Trump implemented. This is on. him. For the amount of money that they're spending, they have no problem spending $172 million on two brand new private jets for Kristi Noem to fly around the country and play Ice Barbie. They have no problem spending millions of dollars on armored BMWs, so Kash Patel can cosplay as tough guy FBI director. They have no problem spending money on Tomahawk missiles to blow up fishermen in Venezuela on some BS excuse for, you know, narco trafficking, which you all know is not. true. So this whole idea that it was about fiscal responsibility that the American people have to go through this pain is BS, and the American people are going to know that, and especially in 2026, because it will be a campaign issue. It did not have to be this way. Charlie Dent and Tara Setmeyer, thank you so much for joining us this evening on all end. Thank you. Next, the Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Center goes quiet for New Year's Eve as artists cancel on the new MAGA board. More on that when we're back on All-N. Hey, everybody, it's Roblo here. If you haven't heard, I have a podcast that's called Literally with Roblo. And basically it's conversations I've had that really make you feel like you're pulling up a chair at an intimate dinner between myself and people that I admire, like Aaron Sorkin or Tiffany Haddish, Demi Moore, Chris Pratt, Michael J. Fox. There are new episodes out every Thursday. So subscribe, please, and listen, wherever.

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Less than two weeks after the Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Center Board of Trustees voted to change its name, the newly minted Trump Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Center is struggling to hold on to headliners for its New Year's Eve concerts. Just this week, two different performance groups scheduled to take the stage tomorrow canceled their shows. One of those groups, a jazz ensemble called The Cookers, explained their decision in a statement, quote, jazz was born from struggle and from a relentless insistence on freedom, freedom of thought, of expression, and of the full human voice. We are not turning away from our audience and do want to make sure that when we do return to the bandstand, the room is able to celebrate the full presence of the music and everyone in it. This is the second round of holiday cancellations for the center after last week's annual Christmas Eve concert was also called off in response to Donald Trump slapping his name on the building. It's also just the latest example of the cultural backlash against Trump's agenda we've seen all year as more ordinary people find their own unique ways to tell this president no. Coming on to discuss, Philip Bump is a data journalist and creator of the How to Read This Chart newsletter. Barrie Williams is a technology attorney and startup advisor. She served as the lead counsel for META and is the author of Seen Yet Unseen. A Black Woman crashes the tech fraternity. They both join me now. Philip, I'll start with you. It's one thing to have people cancel at the last minute. It happens. Happens in television, happens in movies, happens in award shows. But it's something else entirely when bands and organizations that are often strapped for cash are saying, we will turn down the opportunity to be at the Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Center for these explicit political reasons. Talk about how significant that is for many of these organizations, many individuals to say, I won't show up at the Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Center monitors. I don't care what the circumstances are as long as Trump is involved. Yeah, I mean, I think you hit the nail on the head. It's very significant. You know, this is an opportunity for a lot of these places, a lot of these performers to be in a place that is seen as sort of the vanguard of American democracies as sort of a representation of the United States as a whole. And that, of course, is the entire problem. The Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Center has long stood for being a nonpartisan place where American culture is celebrated. And Donald Trump took it upon himself to change that, to politicize it. You know, we have seen this letter, for example, from Richard Ginell, who is.

is the person that was tapped by Trump to lead the Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Center, complaining about one of the cancellations, suggesting that this was somehow an abdication of the performer's duty to serve the public. But it's Donald Trump who did this. It is Donald Trump who's very, very desperate for attention and recognition, who decided that he was going to put his name very awkwardly on the side of the building, the Donald J. Trump and the Jonathan Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Center, right? It doesn't make any sense. But he's the one who decided to do this to take this thing that was this apolitical organization representing him. American culture and try and infuse politics and put his own brand on it. And this is the result. And so yes, this is a big hit for these organizations, for these musical acts, but it is at the same time an opportunity for them to represent to themselves and to say to the world, this is who we are and this is what we stand for, which of course is a fundamental aspect of what art is about. Yeah, putting your name on a Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Center is sort of the equivalent of Pledge of Allegiance brought to you by Amazon. Like it's not supposed to be connected to anything financial one way or another. Bari, I want to ask you this. This is a presidency that had at its head, right, someone who was a cultural tastemaker. I mean, Donald Trump was on, he was in movies and he was on a reality TV show for 10 years. But he's been hostile to artists, not just from the standpoint of attacking people like Rob Reiner, but by promoting artificial intelligence, promoting AI, using AI gifts and memes to attack people and everything else like that. What has been sort of the impact of a president who's been so hostile to art and so supportive of basically language models to steal from artists at the same time? What is that doing to sort of the connection between the arts community and this White House? Well, you can see it just in the example of you have Sabrina Carpenter saying, take my music and in my image out of your memes. You have that with Theo, Theo, who was a huge, who was a part of the Manosphere and was a Trump supporter saying, hey, I don't want to be part of your ICE memes either. It's a proliferation of AI slop, right? And that's kind of what happens when you have someone who comes in who owns Twitter and you leave him in charge. He has an issue with Grock in July, and it started to praise him every time you ask Grock a question. Then it shifted, and it would give you anti-Semitic responses to your questions. So it's just a proliferation of horrible, horrible behavior. And it's, you know, when you tell kids that you want to emulate the adults that are in charge, I don't want my kids emulating this adult at all. But we see a lot of other grown adults walking in lockstep. Philip, you know, one of the things that you often see is a president will use their cultural cachet to sort of make themselves appear to be cool, make themselves appear to be connected. They want to show it with celebrities. They want to show it with professional athletes. But we've seen with this administration, the first one and this one now, People want to move away from Donald Trump. People don't want to be associated with him. People don't want to perform with him. You know, celebrities and entertainers like Nikki Minaj is like losing all sorts of clout because she's now been seen as praising Donald Trump. What does it say about the future of this administration if they have lost the cultural pulse? If being connected with them is poison to anyone's box office or sales as opposed to neutral or even beneficial?

Yeah, I mean, I do want to say, first of all, I think that it's probably not really true that a lot of presidents want to be cool. A lot of them want to be popular. But, you know, we had cool presence like Barack Obama was a cool. And his job, as he saw it, was to sort of bring the outskirts of American culture into the main stream to allow people to see sort of the things that he recognized as cool. Donald Trump, I think is very different. He really does want to be cool. He wants that attention. He wants that approval. And he's not getting it from a lot of cultural institutions from a lot of places. What we do see is we see a lot of artists. who are on the outskirts, either because they're not particularly good or they're sort of past their prime, you know, Rob Schneiders and Kid Rocks and so on and so forth, trying to get into the limelight that Donald Trump is sharing, and he's eager to have them come in because he feels as though that's as close to cool as he's going to get. But I really do think that, you know, when we have someone like Mickey Minaj, when we have people who are, you know, podcasters who have a very... And I don't mean this in a disparaging way. All of us are way too attuned to politics and, you know, God bless those more, but who may not be as attuned to politics and not recognizing the extent to which they're taking a political statement at this moment is fraught. I think we're going to see a lot more people come to recognize, oh, I didn't realize that I was making a statement in this way, you know, to the point about Theo Bond, that is essentially what he did. Like, I didn't get the full scope of what it was that I was endorsing here. And I think you're going to see. see more people saying, okay, I was sort of sympathetic to the idea that Donald Trump was this tough guy and I liked that. But now they're seeing, okay, there's a backlash to that because what Donald Trump's doing, the full picture of who he is and what he is, is actually very negative and toxic and not very popular at all. I could have this conversation all night, but we can't. Philip Bump and Bari Williams, thank you so much for joining us this evening on Allend. And a passing of note. Right before the show tonight, news broke that veteran actor Isaiah Whitlock, Jr., passed away peacefully in his home. Whitlock was a go-to actor for morally questionable politicians, from corrupt Senator Clay Davis on the wire to the unscrupulous Secretary of Defense, George Maddox on JD Vance, to the kind-hearted but compromised Mayor Figaro on your honor. At a time when the arts that criticize politicians are under attack, we'd be remiss if we didn't highlight the career of a man who showed us leaders in the best and sometimes worst light. With Lock was 71 years old. We'll be right back.

It has been a chaotic 2025, but it has been our honor to keep you informed all year long. We will see you in 2026 with more high quality reporting and analysis from the amazing team here at MS Now. That is all in on this Tuesday night. Hey, everybody, it's Rob Lowe here. If you haven't heard. I have a podcast that's called Literally with Roblo. And basically it's conversations I've had that really make you feel like you're pulling up a chair at an intimate dinner between myself and people that I admire like Aaron Sorkin or Tiffany Haddish, Demi Moore, Chris Pratt, Michael J. Fox. There are new episodes out every Thursday. So subscribe, please, and listen wherever. You get your podcasts.