Trump Echoes Bush's Mideast Blunders

Join MS Now Live in Texas for our biggest event yet with Rachel Maddo, Chen Saki, Michael Steele, and more. MS Now Live Together, September 26th. Get tickets today at MS. dot now slash together. Thanks to everyone at home for joining us on the beat. I'm Ari Melburgh. I'm back as a cool mention after a couple days off. Glad to be with you tonight. We're covering Trump's struggle to contain the fallout from the war he started in Iran. And later, Andrew Weissman joins us. And I want to tell you, By the end of this hour, we have something very special with author, a New York art legend, Fab Five, Freddie. You can see him there back in the glory days. That's by the end of the hour. So I invite you to stick with us for all of that. We begin, though, with this investigative reporting, which undercuts Trump's war claims. Iran's nuclear timeline is about the same as before the war. I'm going to walk through that reporting, but just think about this context and how it's bad for Trump. He broke his vow to avoid those so-called forever wars, which had saddled other Republican presidents. And Trump launched this war in the same region, the Middle East, picking a fight that immediately proved more complex than the initial hawkish claims. In that sense, history has that echo. It's not exactly the same. This is not a ground war as of today. And there weren't exactly false claims about WMDs inside the country, but there are still lies. That's the context, as I mentioned for this reporting tonight, because the lies include lies about an adversary's weapons, what they are, what they have, their ability to do harm. That is as serious as it comes when you're dealing with leadership and statecraft. And, of course, brave men and women in our armed forces their lives on the line. So Trump does find himself as we begin tonight far closer to George W. Bush's mid-east problems than two months ago. And whatever the many criticisms that are of Donald Trump, and I'll show you some of the polling later in the hour, this is a new bad problem he created that is worse for him and, of course, the country than two months ago. It includes a credibility crisis because Reuters is reporting the time that Iran needs. to build a nuclear weapon has not changed since last summer. I'm leaving that up on the screen for a second because you may have heard about this or seen an alert on your phone. Of course, it's been discussed on our air today. This is the core of it. We'd always tell you go read the whole article. Go read as much as you can if you want to be informed. But I'm telling you that if you don't read the whole article, this is the part you need to know. This detonates everything Trump and his team has been saying. because the time that Iran needs to build a nuclear weapon has not changed since last summer since this war began. That's the key finding. It shreds Donald Trump's main war defense, even as the gas prices have been surging and the war rationales have shifted. You might recall if you've been following all this, this is what they keep coming back to. Hey, even if gas is more expensive, which they sometimes kind of admit is a problem, and other times they minimize it. But even if that's the case, they claim... This costly war would be worth it because the U.S., quote, obliterated Iran's nuclear program. That's what they were claiming. And we live in a world of information and propaganda and viral memes and people hear that. And they go, well, if that's the case, then I guess that's at least the other side of the ledger, high gas prices, but we achieve something over there. But that's false. After two months of fighting, Reuters is drawing on the United States' own

intelligence. This is not some outside assessment. They are drawing on that. Their sources and methods reporting define that Iran's nuke capabilities are broadly unchanged with limited new damage to the nuclear program. And that unchanged timeline suggests that significantly impeding Tehran's nuclear program might require destroying or removing Iran's remaining stockpile of highly enriched uranium. So get ready to hear about that as the new goalpost. But remember, if that's the new goalpost over here, we've got to do this extra thing. Well, that means that Donald Trump was wrong, incompetent, or lying. One of the three, when he came out and told you the American people, and of course our soldiers fighting this war, that they'd obliterated and they'd already, quote, won the war. That's the condition of the program over there. Now, some of the regime's critics still say it could be helpful to have some kind of global alliance that stands up to Iran, that some steps earlier in this process could have been useful. Remember, Iran has a lot of opponents in the Muslim Middle East and its neighborhood and neighboring countries. But the fact that Trump is failing to do the thing he said was already done to impede the nuclear program in a substantial way does not cancel out that plenty of folks are against Iran and want to contain it. The facts are the facts, though. The war has not changed Iran's regime. We knew that because they replaced a hardliner with a younger hardliner. It hasn't changed the country's broad nuclear capacity, what it can do over time. What Trump has changed are the gas prices at home, the oil supply, the uncertainty abroad. U.S. ships have just faced coordinated threats from Iran's small boats, missiles, and drones, and a sustained barrage. The open-ended blockade means those risks continue, even though, thankfully for the U.S., that attack wasn't very successful. Trump officials were grilled on these problems today. The defense secretary says the ceasefire is basically holding his counterpart at state, Marco Rubio, meanwhile trying to spin how we count the war. Now, that's usually a bad sign. If a war is over, there's not a big debate about counting it. And if it's going well, achieving clear objectives over time, we've seen the American public in past wars, tends to have support, particularly in the initial phase, the first few months. This is different for some of the reasons you know and that I already mentioned. Trump went it alone, had shifting rationales, and the big core rationale that might even be justifiable with the high gas prices. It's not true. So this is now with the counting, a bid to stem the growing bipartisan opposition to this war. There are more and more congressional Republicans, at least eyeing using the 60-day limit in the war powers law. Keep that in mind as you listen to both men. Secretary Pete Hegseth, last 24 hours or so, Iran's fired at us, we fired at Iran. I'm just going to ask you more directly, is the ceasefire over? No, the ceasefire is not over. Ultimately, this is a separate and distinct project. And we expected there would be some churn at the beginning, which happened. And we said we would defend it and defend aggressively, and we absolutely have. The operation is over. Epic Fury is a president notified Congress. We're done with that stage of it. Okay, we're now on to this project of freedom. United States is not done.

At a time like this, it's sometimes our job, those of us who are doing the reporting, trying to look at the facts and the sources, show you what's being claimed, and then try to show you the evidence of what's true to just say it out loud. No, the U.S. is not done, obviously. The soldiers know that. They're over there facing these continued threats. And from what we can tell, the public knows it. The public knows this is an ongoing war. They know that their president, whatever his big claims and vows, has not effectively managed it, not for the goals abroad, not for the economy at home. The public knows they are facing rising energy prices that are hammering families and businesses alike, as the Times reports. Gas is about $4.5 per gallon. Americans know why. Trump's broken promise to bring down prices echoes like so many others. Back in the Trump 2024 campaign, they actually sold bumper stickers roasting Biden for gas prices. Joe Biden owes me gas money. That's a real bumper sticker. You can see them on real bumpers of real cars. Probably most of them affixed there in 2024. Well, that was back when gas was about $350 a gallon, the price everyone would swap compared. to a year ago, or obviously to Trump's current war tax price, which is about four and a half bucks. Americans are rejecting all this, which drives Trump to his worst numbers. Yeah, he was already on the way down. He was unpopular before starting this war, but now he's in a tough spot. He's lower than Biden's worst numbers before the then incumbent president dropped out. And the two have something else in common right now. They both face... American majorities that have concluded they no longer are mentally fit to be president. This is never a comfortable topic, not one that you leap towards. If you care about your country, you would rather have all of these things resolved peacefully and democratically and not with the talk that Trump faces now about whether he can actually competently finish this term. But according to the public, there's a concern that he can't. Trump's number there includes some conservatives and Republicans who've also come to the view that the president is unfit, that he lacks mental sharpness, that he neither mentally nor physically is up to the job, and there are two plus years left in this job constitutionally unless you have to resort to the never-used constitutional provision to remove someone who is completely unable to do the job. People have come to that view. Think about this. even with Donald Trump's sustained PR and government propaganda operations. In other words, we're not just watching some undistorted, perfectly clean filter of everything that happens. We're not just watching sort of Trump's C-SPAN, far from it. I have to remind you the context of the information we're getting because Trump is misusing government resources for promotion, misusing the social media accounts for what are obviously partisan and political matters, which again, served to try to inflate largely him and also sometimes his team. He's also abused government powers to demand more favorable independent press coverage.

That includes going at stations. The government may have leverage over the rolling scandal we've seen recently with ABC, as well as the approval of the government's involvement and overseeing a merger that will, if completed, put CNN in the hands of a close Trump MAGA ally. I mentioned that because those filters, along with the Internet and Fox News, are how a lot of people have heard about Trump. And they still have come to the conclusion a majority that he's unfit. And there hasn't even been a big live event like the now infamous Biden debate, which updated the concerns Americans already had by showing their president unfiltered, like I'm mentioning, for over an hour in real time. Just imagine if you had that kind of national audience, 100 million people watching what have become Trump's now routine, rambling, off-topic diversions. Here he was discussing for a while the renovation of a reflecting pool during what was supposed to be unaddressed to small business owners just this week. I'll give you just one little anecdote. We have a beautiful, potentially beautiful, built in 1922, it's a long time ago, reflecting pond. And I said, you know, I built all these swimming pools, and they're phenomenal. We sandblasted it. We pebble blasted, you know, pebble blasting. That's a serious sandblast. A great, beautiful blue color, American flag blue, as opposed to gray. Yes, as opposed to gray. That was seven minutes. Now, you could say imagine if Joe Biden did that for seven minutes at a debate or his version of that. We know that Trump has his version of sounding like this and other people who struggled with aging and cognition have their version. But people watching say it looks like he's not up to the job anymore as he fails on the job in ways that are both. ideological, you say, well, you're going to go in and start that war, that's a choice, but also relate to competence and planning and discipline and the ability to process conflicting information and make good decisions, which is the essence of leadership. John Stewart, speaking of reflecting pools, he was doing his own reflecting on what may be the low bar at the White House these days. These are the machinations of genius. He'll tell you himself as he did this weekend. I'm the only president to take a cognitive test. You know, the first question is very easy. It's a lion, a giraffe, a bear, and a shark. They say, which one is the bear?

the only president to take the cognitive test. Let me ask you a question. Why do you think that is? Why do you think that is? It's a little funny. We laugh our way through a lot of things until you think about the seriousness of it. And we know we live in a very partisan, amped up environment. So we know there are people who sounded now, they sounded about Biden the way others sound now about Trump. that if you use a partisan filter, you're looking for the best on your side. Some people said, well, give Biden a chance, and here's why he was good in the past, et cetera, and so on. But ultimately, what was really interesting for reasons both of reality and perhaps campaign planning, the entire leadership of the Democratic Party, backed by similar numbers that I just showed you, the concern about Trump at the time was about Biden. And people said, over time through a process, this cannot stand. And they made a change. very rare change in history. If you expect the Republican Party to do any of that kind of soul searching in this moment, but we're not done. And we have to see how the war goes and how the gas goes and how the midterms go and how these rambling presentations by the president go. Anyone who cares about this country is not rooting for things to get to the worst case scenario. But this is reality we're living through. We have no guarantees about what's going to happen, only the civic systems that we use, even and especially when things are getting untenable. Mike Barnacle and Molly Jong-Fast are my special guests on this. They return with us in 90 seconds.

Now you can watch Ali Valshi five nights a week in prime time on MS now as he takes command of the 11th hour. The breaking news in the last hour. The 11th hour with Ali Valshie, weeknights at 11 p.m. Eastern on MS now. I think there's been a significant decline. He's always been driven by narcissism, but I think the dementia and the cognitive decline are palpable, as do many experts, including many physicians. I don't think there's anybody outside of the United States who believes that Trump is sane. The Trump White House veterans sat in the alarm. We're joined now by Mike Barnacle, the journalist, MS now senior contributor, and Molly Jong Fass, who's a contributing writer for The Times and an analyst for us. And she's the author, How to Lose Your Mother, a daughter's memoir, which is out today in paperback. There you can Google that, get it in paperback, wherever books are sold. You want to hold it up? There. Mike, your thoughts on what is a rolling and in some ways familiar problem. The president, his status, his mental status, I think any professional psychiatrist who looked at his truth social pronouncements on a daily basis, or actually it's a nightly basis, some of the things posted at 245 in the morning, 3.15 in the morning would certainly call up and say, I'd like to see you immediately. And the Biden echo is tricky for the reasons I mentioned. And some people remember standing by him and we have all the partisanship in this country. What I'm suggesting, I guess, as a journalist, but also as a person who lives here, is that these are better dealt with absent partisanship. And people say, oh, Republicans are with them, they're with them. Well, they're with them until they're not. Well, the Biden aspect of it and the Obama aspect of it, to me, And to an average person, I would think you'd say to yourself, why is he doing this? He is what he is. He got what he wanted. He's president of the United States. Why didn't that make him happy? Why hasn't it made him more successful as successful as a voter wanted him to be? Right. Why did none of this happen? Why are we at war? Yeah. I think the problem is this governing by wishcasting, right? When we saw this Marco Rubio press conference today, there was so much. And we saw it this morning, too, with Pete Hegseth, you know, we're in a ceasefire, it's over. We saw all this reporting yesterday that contradicted that. And again, even if you want peace, even if you're convinced that we have peace, it's still not going to make the straits any safer. And maybe it's safer for a little while. And that's certainly the goal. But. gas prices are not going to go down right away, even if you were to reopen the streets tomorrow. And I think that wishcasting this to be okay when it's not, when we see these sky high prices for gas and for diesel, it's not, it doesn't make it so. You know, the.

Marco Rubio Press Conference, you have to give him his due. He knew far more about the situation and explained it far better than the President of the United States has thus far. But he refuses, this administration refuses the fact that we are at war. We were at war. They were afraid to say it. They must know it. Pete Hegseth, they have to know it. We're at war in the Gulf. We took out three fastboats, Iranian fastboats the other day. And what they failed to recognize, that in every war that has ever happened in history, the enemy has a vote. And Iran hasn't voted no war. They just haven't. They're there. And they're quite a contentious opponent. Yeah. And you're dealing with folks who are, they're so steeped in PR. You know, people use this word performative. They don't know anything other than that. And so it's this idea of, oh, well, they heard war is unpopular. So they will perform as if there is no war, which, again, has all the usual Orwellian echoes. It's failing in ways that other such, shall we say, BS moves have not failed as spectacularly. And the reasons are obvious because of the gas, because of the gravity of this, because of the places across the country, red, blue, purple. where you know people are in the military and you feel this is real. Megyn Kelly has been sounding off on this along with other critics. Take a listen. This has been a disaster for the Trump administration and for our country and for the world. Give the Iranians the deal they want. They seem to be willing to deal on the Strait of Hormuz, which of course is an absurd place to be. It was open before this war. If we just left them alone, we would never have this problem. He's used to bullying his way out of everything. And these guys cannot be bullied. He doesn't know what to do. He's great at... talking and he's really not great at winding up wars that he starts by choice. Fair, Mike? More than fair. Look, the facts are the facts. We have three carrier groups within the Mediterranean, close to Iran. Three carrier groups. I think a couple of them, they've been at sea for 10 or 11 months without surely, without being home in America for a break. That's a long time to be at sea. We have maybe 10,000 or more troops on the ground in the area in the region. The cost...

The daily cost has got to be phenomenal. It's got to be a minimum of a billion dollars a day. Imagine that. A billion dollars a day. And that's the one thing they don't talk about, the concept of a team there for a potential war. We are in a war and the cost of keeping them there. And, Molly, there's a reckoning here. I mean, Republicans are very clear in public that if the election were held today, they would lose badly. Yeah. that it's going to be very hard to change that dynamic, although things change. Here was Karl Rove, a Bush veteran on this. The Republicans are falling back to the problem that most White House parties fall into in a midterm election, which is to say, vote for me, I've done a good job, do you want more of the same, and they can't do that. They've got to show they have another act. Can't be given from the leadership, can't come from the president. Yeah, good luck with another act for Trump. I mean, we go back to Megyn Kelly, right? Megyn Kelly is not Walter Cronkite. She is putting her finger up and sees which way the wind is blowing. She is getting... emails and comments from her listeners, and she sees that this war is wildly unpopular. And we know this because Ben Shapiro, who has gone super pro war, has seen a huge fall off on his people. So Megyn Kelly is reflecting the views of her viewers. And she is saying her viewers don't like this war. And I think that that is, you see that. And I don't think that there's a way for Trump to reinvent himself, especially when you have really people voting on gas prices. Americans hate higher gas. Well, Mike, you look at it all together and you have a lot of folks in this country who voted for Trump one or more times. and they're done with it. I mean, they're really over it now. It's hard to see them coming back. And so what do you do with that in our broken times? Because we don't have a really good civil discourse going. I mean, it's interesting, Megan and these other folks, they're very angry about it. They're not, with the exception of Tucker Carlson's sort of little speech, very few of them sound repentant. They just sound like they are revving the anger to a new direction. You know, I think part of the Democrats' problem in confronting that very issue is they focus almost entirely every aspect of their argument on Donald Trump. Donald Trump's going to be gone in two years. He's not going to be able to run for reelections. And a lame duck sooner than that. That's exactly right. And instead of talking about Donald Trump, you could almost just steal a bit from Karl Rove, who's a very good guy and a smart guy, and I don't agree with him about half of his politics, but he's a solid human being. And he just had a little slogan that he used there about the American people. If you did a silent ad just showed grocery prices in a supermarket aisle and switched from the grocery prices in the super apartment just to a gasoline pump, the numbers going up, silent.

No words, no rhetoric. And the slogan is, had enough, you'd win. Yeah. Because you've got to go where people live. That's what the Democratic Party has not done yet successfully. Go where people live. Very interesting conversation. I want to thank you both. And Mike comes back by the end of the hour. You didn't tell me that. To get fly. Yeah, that's news to you. Well. Stick around. Coming up, the Trump DOJ found a Pam Bondi replacement that will do things even she wouldn't. We have Andrew Weissman here on that. Stay with us. Join MS Now Live in Texas for our biggest event yet with Rachel Maddo, Chenzaki, Michael Steele, and more. MS Now Live Together in Texas. September 26th. Get tickets today at MS. dot now slash together. If you're keeping track, the Trump DOJ has not convicted anyone it's gone after on its so-called enemies list, but it is still ratcheting up the charges, U.S. Attorney and Trump Allied, Gene Piro, officially not appealing the ruling that dealt them a big loss in the Fed case, but they're asking the judge to throw out the ruling and arguing and place limits on the executive branch's ability. to prosecute crimes. Piro also left the door open to basically going back on the entire agreement they struck with Congress that this was a baseless case so they would drop it. Now she's saying this. We continue to litigate the issue and we will litigate the issue. So it does not sound like you're committing to if the inspector general finds nothing, you won't move forward. It sounds like you're going to keep trying to find out more. No, it depends on what he finds. Depends on what he finds. So unclear if this is bluster and they continue to leave that case as it was, another setback in court that led to a failure to go after an opponent, or they try to double down, which we've also seen, especially over the past week. Because the DOJ wants to show Donald Trump that he can go after his enemies. We've shown you this list. We keep updating it. This is how we do it at the beat. If you only look at these cases in isolation, individually, some of them might look potentially reasonable. When you take them all together, you see they're all flailing. None have won a conviction. New York Times noting the newest effort in Georgia is to use the federal government to pursue false claims that his losing 2020 election was somehow stolen. And the revenge aspirations of the leadership, including Pam Bondi's currently temp replacement. We'll find out if the acting AG becomes the AG, but that has continued an exodus from DOJ. Some of the career prosecutors don't want to do this work. The probes.

have created all of this tension because you've got people literally risking losing their law license if they carry out what may be illegal indictments. The DOJ has lost about a quarter of its lawyers over 8,000. Fired to quit in the last year, that is unusual to say the least. And the problem here is that even when the system is working, because some lawyers say, I won't do that or that's illegal, then they face the decision to potentially quit over it or face retribution, that might stop the one bad thing from happening, legally bad. But then others come in and still do it. And they're running a lot of temp lawyers. And the James Comey case has been revived. So we are at an inflection point again, even if we've heard that before. The guardrail's holding some of the time. while the DOJ has a new leader that wants to go even farther. Andrew Weissman is here on all of this. Next. We're back with Andrew Weissman, FBI General Counsel, former Mueller prosecutor. I'm going to show a headline that is odd for government. DOJ offers lawyers $25,000 signing bonus with recruitment lag. And this is to staff a particular office investigating youth transgender treatments, litigating Trump administration's immigration agenda, other things that seem potentially controversial amid what I explained earlier in the show and the setup to you, Andrew, that sometimes the guardrails are holding. They haven't convicted a single so-called enemy, but not without cost. I think it's really important for people to understand how unusual it is to see 8,000 people leaving the Department of Justice. It is unusual for any administration. In other words, don't look at this through a prism of Republican and Democrat. This is one that is just not happened before. And one of the things that you're alluding to is the idea that you have to give. a sign-in bonus, these are jobs that I just couldn't believe I was lucky enough to get the job, and there is a waiting list, and you have the pick of the litter when you were at the Department of Justice in terms of who is applying to take that job, and people generally are taking substantial cuts in pay from the private sector to do public service. So the idea that you now not only are losing that many people, but that you have to give a financial award. And reward for doing public service in this administration is a real sign of where things are. This never happened in Republican or Democratic administrations in which I've served. And I mentioned some people in government have drawn a line.

Some of them have become whistleblower. Some of them said, I won't do this. And that's your career day. And sometimes you back them off and you stay working because government officials aren't there to do only what they agree with. They're there to do the job under the Constitution's limits. Other times you're done. And five, ten years, government service now done. And we've seen how they treat those people. Can you speak to that context here? Because it's really... discouraging to see Todd Blanche go further than Pam Bondi, and yet I haven't read or seen a single serious examination of the James Comey case that suggests it could actually win because the system does have barriers. The system does have barriers, but the coming case, the most recent one, I think, is not remotely plausible in terms of going to trial and winning. It is just not a true threat, not subjectively, not objectively under the Supreme Court test. Another recent case, again, brought under the Todd Blanche, I'd say not really ready for prime time acting attorney general is the Southern Poverty Law Center case where he has made comments that he's had to backtrack on that are diametrically opposed to the theory of the case. You're saying, and I'll let you finish this. You're saying Todd Blanche can't even keep his lies or misleading claims straight. We have that so you can explain what we're watching on the other side. Here it is, Todd Blanche. Sure. There is no information that we have that suggests that the money that they were paying to these informants and these members of these organizations, they then turned around and shared what they learned with law enforcement. It is true that over the years, they have selectively shared information with law enforcement. That's well documented and there's no dispute there. They aren't charged with any of that conduct.

So they are charged for that. The theory of the case is that the Southern Poverty Law Center was running a Ponzi scheme that they were telling their donors that they were trying to thwart hate groups. Well, in fact, they were privately propping up these hate groups. And so this was just their mechanism to try and defraud donors out of money. And the Southern Poverty Law Center... has been saying to the government in writing, wait a second, that's just not true. Look at the information that we gave you, the government, from us to fight these groups. Indeed, part of the indictment actually talks about an effort to thwart. these groups by the Southern Poverty Law Center. So to me, Todd Blanche's statement is so directly contrary to the very theory of this case. Again, I think this is one word, is shoot first, ask questions later. There's reporting that this case, the Southern Poverty Law Center case, was sort of rushed through. It feels that way. Todd Blanche's statements and then retracting statements suggest the same. Again, like the new combing case, I think this is a case that's not going to see the inside of a courtroom. And again, as you know, I don't usually predict these kinds of things because we usually don't know what the government has. But here, it seems so implausible like the James Comey case to have brought this. And it reeks of just trying to placate. the boss so that you can become the attorney general. Yeah, and with James Comey, as you say, we know more about what they have here because they have a case that failed completely against him and a year old Instagram photo of seashells, which it wasn't even that exciting of a post at the time, let alone a federal case. Andrew Weissman, thank you, sir. In a fit of break when we come back, a spotlight on inequality. Jeff Bezos from firing folks at the Washington Post to him and his wife hitting up the Met Gala. Next.

Yeah, I love time to doubt. It's time for a very special edition of Fallback. We got Mike Barnacle coming back up in The Business. He, of course, has written over 4,000 columns, Time, ESPN, the Daily Beast, Boston Herald. He's an MS now C... Boston Globe. Excuse me, Boston Globe. Let's get it right. As Biggie would say, spell my name right. My apologies. He is a Boston man through and through. We've seen him at Fenway Park over the years, sometimes with... Big political figures and Hollywood A-listers. We caught you out there, I believe, with Robert Redford. And, uh, yep, look at that. That's pretty cool. If you're into that kind of thing. And a groundbreaking artist, filmmaker, hip-hop pioneer Fab Five Freddy, often seen as a bridge between New York's art and rap scene from the 70s to the 80s. Debbie Harry, Rap Fab Five Freddy told me everybody's fly on the Blondie breakout hit Rapture, which changed so much. He discusses that a new book we'll get to. You also might remember him from Yo MTV Raps. Yep, yep, yeah. I'm back in Cali to have a crazy good time chilling out with NWA. I introduced him and a lot of people downtown to this new form called, well, rap music at the time and then became a part of hip-hop culture. It echoes sound where a lot of major West Coast artists record out here. You, pool, yo, yo, everybody be up in here. There he was with Tupac, RIP. The new memoir is Everybody's Fly, A Life of Art Music, and Changing the Culture, which I read when I was vacation last week. We'll get to that. Welcome. Thank you. It's good to be here, Ari. Great to have you both. Thanks so much for reading the book on your vacation. I appreciate that. It was a good reading. Be here with you, Mike. So we start as we do around here often with the politics. We'll get to the book. Mike, what's on your fallback list? I've got a couple on my fallback list. The first is the Met Gala the other evening. America should never again confuse wealth with wisdom, taking a peek at that. Deep. It's just, you know, this is not personal to anyone who appeared. It's not personal in terms of grading the dresses that they wore, the costumes that they wore. It's none of that. It's the fact that we live in a world in my lifetime. It has never been more separated by money than life is now. by a horrific number of billionaires, many of them I would submit without conscience, filled with just the enormous energy to make even more money, and the idea that all of that money was spent at the Met for, I guess, clothing pictures or something. All of that money spent to the Met, they could have gone further down Fifth Avenue and gone to the New York Public Library and done a night for American history. Whoa. They say, oh, this is sort of a charity and the Met's still a good thing. Right. You say that it's become basically something that kind of celebrates wealth above everything else. That's my vote, yes. Yeah. What's on your fallback list?

My fallback list would have to be, well, two things, the first of which, and I was shocked when I heard this, Africa's gift to the world, coffee. Starbucks wants to sell for $9 a cup? Yeah. That ain't right. $9 is wild. That's so insane. There's no experience worth from a Starbucks worth that amount of money. They should be rolling the price back, and then they would increase their business by volumes. Hey, come on in and get a dollar or so off. Yeah, and we were talking about this. We were saying they're getting roasted for it. No pun intended. Think about it. And Freddie, it kind of speaks to like, can nothing just be? Like you come out of New York City where, you know, we could all just get on the subway, grab a cup of coffee. There are some shared experiences here. And the idea that you're going to price people out of that. That's crazy, man. Listen, it doesn't make sense. Oh, boy. Sorry to hear that. They should fix that because that's not cool. Like? My second one? Or you have a coffee view. You want to take a stance on this? I'm an ice coffee guy. Wow. And it has to be done exactly correct. And I get it early in the morning, 5 a.m. on the way in here. And it's done perfectly correct. And how much is it? Well, that's the problem. It's now nearly, it's five bucks, just about $5 for a venty ice coffee at Starbucks. And it shouldn't be too much more. That's a decent price. But it will be. Oh, boy. It will be. All right. We have another one here, which we're kind of sharing a fallback, which is some of the smartphones and the AI falling back. Yeah. Mike. Some schools now are going further in actually banning this and being more strict about it. How many phones you can have around with the kids. Foreign governments we've seen have a much more restricted approach than America, where they're actually making social media limited the way you limit alcohol and saying, no, the government's going to get involved and not just have anyone of any age being exposed to these sort of potentially distortive. very powerful tools. What do you think about what might be a tech backlash? Well, I don't know. I don't know what the iPhone or all these smartphones that kids have. Now, I'm not against the smartphone per se. Okay? I mean, they're certainly a convenience and we all have them. What my mind bothered by the fact that it reduces eye contact among people. Good point. And knocking on a door after a story or just talking to someone about your life and everything, eye contact. Yeah. It's reduced eye contact. Good point. And thus it reduces curiosity in very young kids. So instead of asking someone, what was that like? They look at their phone. And they don't get the human nature of it. They don't get the human aspect of it and the storytelling aspect of it. It's all on the phone. Yeah. Well, that's well put. I want to go to your book.

Yeah. Tell us about this era of New York that you were, you were such a part of it. It's got to be interesting to reflect. It was just fascinating. I wanted to write this book for a long time to really explain how and why everybody was flied at New York. That was a lot. Even though things were somewhat, you know, separated to a certain extent, in the downtown scene, the creative energy was incredible. It was almost like in anything goes. Let's look at some photos as you talk. Yes, and people were wide open to new ideas, different types of music. And so it was a blast to meet various people all coming up, trying to get their groove on and make things happen and have an impact on culture. That's what I wanted to do. And, you know, it was amazing that the things that came... together at that time. And they say necessity is the mother of invention. The way the vibe was, what you write about in the book, making art on a spray can because that's all you had, how did that actually burnish what you guys were doing? Well, I had seen that... The graffiti had developed into a point where people were making pictures and really telling stories. And at that point, I saw a connection between that and what pop artists had did. And I connected with Lee Cignonas, who was one of the masters and said, listen, I think we can transition from the trains and take this into galleries. And I met Jean-Michaubowski out along the way. He had the same ideas. Keith Herring, Futura. A whole bunch of us got busy at that time. And it was an audience also in their downtown. scene for new work. Let's keep running through the pictures. I love these pictures because these are photos in the book. Who did you know when you looked at Keith Herring or Baskat 20 seconds? You said, oh, they're definitely going to be iconic or you didn't know that? Well, we were all trying to make an impact, not just on the art of our time, but on art history. That's the real goal when you have a significant impact as an artist. And we were talking about that. And we had all looked at what Warhol and the abstract expressionists did who were hanging out in the same neighborhoods we were in the East Village, Rauschenberg. Rothko, Jackson Pollock. So we were aware of a lot of that history and the history of the pop art scene in the 60s. And we were trying to get our groove on in that same kind of, in that same way. And it happened rather quickly. Well, it comes through. I read the book this week. Congratulations. You've been on the beat before, but great to celebrate the book. Also, you've got to check my audio book. I'll put some extra special treats in there, interviews, music. There you go. All right, everyone. Google Fab Five, Freddie. Get your new books. Everybody's fly. We'll be right back. Thank you. Thank you.

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