“Fatal flaw”

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everyone. It's four o'clock in New York. Impunity for me, prosecution for the multiple developments today underscoring just how divorced the Trump Justice Department is from justice and facts and reality as it pursues retribution for anyone Donald Trump believes has ever wronged him or sought to hold him accountable and seeks to protect anyone seen as a political ally to Donald Trump, even if they are violent and may represent a threat to public safety. Two federal prosecutors have been put on leave after they filed a sentencing memo seeking 27 months of prison time for Taylor Taranto. He is a pardoned January 6th insurrectionist who brought illegal guns to President Barack Obama's home back in 2003. In their sentencing memo, the prosecutors wrote this about the capital insurrection and Toronto's role in it. Quote, on January 6, 2021, thousands of people. comprising a mob of rioters attacked the U.S. Capitol while a joint session of Congress met to certify the results of the 2020 presidential election. Toronto was accused of participating in the riot in Washington, D.C. by entering the U.S. Capitol building. After the riot, Taranto returned to his home in the state of Washington, where he promoted conspiracy theories about the events of January 6, 2021. We saw those events with our own eyes and those descriptions about this individual are simply the facts, planned and simple. Prosecutors said that Taranto showed up outside President Barack Obama's home shortly after Donald Trump posted his address with a cash of illegal guns and ammunition saying, quote, got to get the shot, stop at nothing to get the shot, end quote. Again. Those are the words. Those are the facts. He was then found guilty, based on those words and those facts, in a bench trial back in May. But if the facts are inconvenient for Donald Trump and his Justice Department, any punishable offense for those who dare to work off the facts. In some of their cases, in some cases, in other cases, the facts may actually be the beginning of the end and lead to Trump's undoing. Brand new reporting from Politico reveals what could be a, quote, fatal flaw in the case brought by Trump appointed U.S. Attorney Lindsey Halligan against New York Attorney General Letitia James. From that reporting, quote, The politically charged mortgage fraud indictment against New York Attorney General Letitia James accuses her of lying to lenders in order to get a favorable loan rate on a second home. She then rented the property, the indictment alleges, in violation of the terms of the loan she obtained. But there's a glaring issue with that accusation. The mortgage contract, James signed, does not prohibit renting out the house. According to Politico's new review of the contract and legal and real estate experts, in fact, the key language in the contract expressly allows renting under certain conditions.

Collision of facts in Donald Trump is where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. New York Times Justice Department reporter Glenn Thrush is back. Also joining us, senior editor for Slate, host of the Amicus podcast. Dahlia Lithwick is here. And with me at the table, former DHS chief of staff during Donald Trump's first term, Miles Taylor's here. He's also the co-founder of defiance.org, which we'll talk about in a minute. Glenn Thrush, I start with you. And the first story we shared with our viewers, tell me what you and your colleagues are reporting about this case. Well, it's basically exactly as you articulated it with one addition that we've also determined, which is Janine Piro's office, and we should tell people that the U.S. attorney for Washington, D.C., who ostensibly ordered this was Jeanine Piro, late of Fox News, a friend of the presidents, also makes some cameo appearances on Saturday Night Live, I believe. their impersonator does, essentially saying that that language was an error. Now, I will refer you to the great work of our colleagues, you know, Ryan Riley with NBC and MSNBC, Alan Fourier with us, who covered these January 6th riot cases exhaustively. And needless to say, that is what happened that day. The original description of this was accurate in the document. And the only thing, the comp that this really harkens back to is the infamous case of Erez Rubini, as you recall, who... The Justice Department immigration lawyer who had the temerity to state in court that the charges against Kilmar Abrago Garcia, rather the deportation to El Salvador of Abrago Garcia, was a mistake, was a paperwork error. And for that, Ruvani, who was pretty well regarded inside the department and was not seen as somebody who was antithetical to Trump's getting. talk on immigration agenda, he was fired, and before he was fired, he was bullied by the department. So basically, what seems to have happened, and I can't impute this, or reporting doesn't show this, but in the past what has happened is the notion that a line attorney, a career person, would contradict the larger agenda and messaging of the White House tends to get punished, and that appears what happened. in this instance. Glenn, let me just push you, though. Are they being asked to lie in sentencing memos now? Because he seems that if that's where we are, he had to either lie in a sentencing memo to a judge or, I mean, where are we? Are they not supposed to tell the truth in a sentencing memo or are the prosecution supposed to be dropped before they get there?

Well, look, under Piro, we have seen some extraordinary developments. We're also seeing them in Chicago in terms of these ICE protests of cases being brought against individuals by sitting U.S. attorneys that are then rejected by grand juries. I can't tell you how unusual that is. When I was talking to attorneys in D.C., they estimated to me that... in like one of every two or three thousand cases that might happen. It was just something, it was like a once in a career thing. That is now happening with startling regularity. So what is going on right now is the backstop of the judiciary, at least in places like the District of Columbia and Chicago, you're having judges and juries making these determinations and either throwing out cases or going back to the Justice Department and chiding them for giving misinformation. But like, I don't care what you put in the four lines of a legal document, the Justice Department. You know, the riot at the Capitol took place. So this larger attempt by the White House and the Justice Department enabling it to rewrite the history of January 6th. I don't think it's going to work. And I think it's just intended to please the audience of one or perhaps the audience of two if you throw Stephen Miller onto the pile. And Glenn, Is the fact of this individual bringing illegal guns to former President Barack Obama's house a feature of this story or a bug? Well, I think it is, I think it's neither. I think it's just the facts on the ground, but I will say that it points to another thing that you suggested, Nicole, and that is there does appear to be an entirely different standard depending on who the perceived victim of an action is. I will give you a perfect example of this. A couple of weeks ago, Harmeet Dillon, the head of the Civil Rights Division, I believe issued two tweets, three tweets and one video calling out the brief detention of a far-right journalist during the Portland ICE protests. The details on the ground are still fuzzy. There appeared to have been an altercation. Some people claim this guy threw a punch. Other people claim he was jumped in any event. The head of the Civil Rights Division took it upon herself to say she was going to investigate that. And then you see this instance where the documents are revised in this particular cases. You know, I haven't done a systematic analysis. I can't draw a great deal of conclusions. But prima facie, you are seeing, in another example, would be Pam Bondi's call for maximum penalties against people who vandalized Tesla dealerships back when Elon Musk was doing Doge. So I think that is very much an important question. I think warrants more exploration. Miles, let me just read to you what Justice Sotomayor worried would be ushered in if immunity, absolute immunity was granted to Donald Trump.

She wrote this, quote, looking beyond the fate of this particular prosecution, the long-term consequences of today's decision are stark. The court effectively creates a law-free zone around the president, upsetting the status quo that has existed since the founding. This new official acts immunity now, quote, lies about like a loaded weapon for any president that wishes to place his own interests, his own political survival. or his own financial gain above the interests of the nation. The President of the United States is the most powerful person in the country and possibly the world. When he uses his official powers in any way, under the majority's reasoning, he now will be insulated from criminal prosecution. Orders the Navy SEAL Team 6 to assassinate a political rival immune. Organizes a military coup to hold on to power, immune. It takes a bribe in exchange for a pardon, immune, immune, immune. You know, that loaded weapon that Justice Sotomayor references has already been fired by this president again and again and again. And they're reloading. for a much more serious operation. And we can flash forward to 2026 and 28. The president's not joking when he says he wants to stay president of the United States. And scenarios like the justice laid out there are very credible. If past his prologue, we know Donald Trump is willing to abrogate the Constitution to hold on to power. But just look at the immediate. I mean, with these two cases... we come away with a very obvious picture. Donald Trump is coddling assassins because he can. What do I mean by that? If they're reducing pressure on people who tried to kill a U.S. president and forgiving that, it's now become part of a pattern just last week. The president had pardoned someone who tried to assassinate the top Democrat in Congress, a January 6th rioter. They are coddling these assassins because they don't worry about any implications of giving a pass to these people. You know, I saw this coming in the First Trump administration, Nicole. I remember when I was helping draft the president's counterterrorism strategy, pushing that White House. to focus on domestic terror because the FBI and our agents at DHS were telling us there was a spike in domestic violent extremism and primarily it was coming from the right. Now, these analysts don't decide where they want to look at the threats. They don't look at the party registration of these people. They just base it on the case numbers. They base it on cases of people who want to kill their fellow Americans. And they told us and they told the White House, there is a growing right-wing extremist movement. And you know what the response was? We're not going to talk about that in the National Counterterrorism Strategy. They didn't want to talk about it unless it was coming from the left. And can you imagine for a moment if the person who assassinated Charlie Kirk had been someone who had been pardoned by Barack Obama?

What the reaction would be from the political right, it would be extraordinary. But they don't care that they're giving these people a pass. They don't care because the Supreme Court bubble-wrapped Donald Trump in immunity, and he is very well aware of it. And we have only just seen the beginning of him deploying what he thinks is that invisibility cloak to the law. Talia, you were one of the people on our air when this decision came down. I think I read that dissent to you. when it was released, when it became public. But it is as much of a gut punch as it was at the time, it is all the more chilling and haunting now. The new official acts immunity lies about like a loaded weapon, she wrote, for any president that wishes to place his own interests, his own political survival, or his own financial gains ahead of the interests of the nation. What do you think about this moment? I think that that decision was written and I remember we talked about it at the time as this entirely academic. thought experiment about executive power. Imagine a normal president in a normal presidency and imagine sort of the maximalist read of what kind of power we would want him to have so that we didn't chill him. We want him to make, you know, fast, good decisions. And in some sense, it was presented that way. And we all looked at each other and we said, but this isn't an ordinary president, and this isn't an academic exercise. This is a person who is time and time and time again. led with the proposition that he could shoot someone and get away with it. And so for the court to say, yeah, yeah, his lawyers went into court and said he could send someone from CL-Tin-6 into assassinate a political rival, and that's plausible. And now we are living with it. And you're quite right about two things. One is this immunity decision keeps popping up time and time and time again, right? It's being invoked now as the basis for dismissing the criminal charges. against Trump in New York. It was invoked as some basis for why Trump wanted to go after the Justice Department and shake them down for investigating him. And we are going to see immunity, immunity, immunity, as Justice Sotomayor said. pulled out time and time again. And let's recall a part of that decision really bubble wrapped him in consultation with his attorney general, right? That becomes also something that the courts can't look at or second guess. And so when President Trump says to Pam Bondi inadvertently tells the whole world thinking he's communicating with her privately.

that she needs to do a better job going after his political rivals. All of that is because he's emboldened because the court handed him that on a silver Graham Platner. And I think the other piece of that is so important, and this just goes to where Glenn started, is it's not just Justice Department lawyers who don't know what to do about this. It's judges themselves around the country who have to grapple with the fact that Donald Trump was handed a loaded gun by the Supreme Court. court and he's waving it around all over the country in case after case. And judges now have to figure out what do I do because my hands are tied by this broad maximalist decision that was presented as a fait accompli. I mean, Dahlia, one of the things that I think people sort of reflexively Point to is the personnel. And the personnel is an important part of the Trump story, right? There's nobody like Jim Mattis or Mark Millie or John Kelly or Miles Taylor around Donald Trump. And that was that had sort of a... I don't know if restraining is the right word, but it at least held up a mirror to that, which was illegal or impeachable. I think people underway the impact of potential criminal consequences as a reigning in impact on Donald Trump. And the entire body of reporting from Glenn and his colleagues and what Miles has written about in books and articles of his fears of Mueller. And his rage about impeachment and his rage about January 6th was because of fear of being criminally exposed. But the immunity decision has done more to unleash the lawlessness of this administration than any personnel decision. And I wonder if you think there's anyone on the court that sees the connective tissue between what they did and Donald Trump's own vindictive and dangerous rhetoric about the judiciary itself. You know, I would have said a year ago that there were justices at the center of the court, you know, the so-called moderate conservatives, Amy Coney Barrett, Brett Kavanaugh, occasionally Chief Justice John Roberts, who are very, very aware of what you are describing of the dynamic that is, if you give him an inch, he will take 100,000 miles. And yet they wrote this decision in the most capacious way to allow for much more, much more sweeping immunity than was necessary. And so I think now the real question is we have seen time and time and time again the court giving Trump leeway in almost every case with the exception of flying folks to Seacott prison with no due process. The court has blessed him. time and time again. And so I think that the notion that there is a center at this court that is really, really nervous about what they unleashed has not been proven out.

by at least the first sort of half year of Donald Trump's term. And there's a theory, and I don't know how much state to put in it, that the court doesn't want to have a constitutional crisis. And so they're appeasing, appeasing, appeasing, and saving their powder for whatever the big ticket case is, where they can tell him no. But we know how appeasement works historically. Every time Donald Trump is appeased by the Supreme Court majority, he takes more. So it's hard. to know where that centrist bubble at the middle of the court is going to draw a line. And I've seen almost no evidence that they live in the world that you and I live in, where they realize that they created this and now they have to rein it in before it's too late. Your point about appeasement is amazing. There isn't a single example in human history. And if that's too abstract for their big brains, they could just call Kevin McCarthy. It does not work. Glenn Thrush and Dahlia Lithwick, thank you for starting us off today. Miles sticks around when we come back, protecting those individuals who have become a target of Donald Trump's sweeping retribution efforts. We'll talk with Miles. is one of those targets about what he is doing to engage more Americans in the fight in helping to stand up for people who speak out. How to defy the lawlessness of the Trump administration is our next story. Also ahead, signs of splintering among Republicans as Donald Trump digs in on some of his most unpopular policies hurting the very Americans who voted for him. And later in the broadcast, from intimidation at the polls to pressuring states to rig their congressional maps, Feels like the groundwork is already being laid to throw future elections into chaos. We'll look at what's being done to protect them. And more when Deadland White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere. There's a pill version of those in pink. Hello, I'm Ozempic. And I'm other GLP-1s, kind of like him. Hey, did I hear there's a pill version of Ozempic? Yep, you sure did. Ask your doctor about which FDA approved uses of the OZempic pen or pill may be right for you. Call 1833 Ozemp or visit OZempic.com to view the medication guide and learn more about OZempic somaglite tablets 9 milligrams and OZempic somaglite injection, two milligrams. There's a pill version of OZMPIC. Here's what happened when one journalist reported on DEI programs. I decided to just focus on the University of Michigan. I obtained internal documents that showed that the school had spent about a quarter of a billion dollars on DEI programs. I spent two weeks in Ann Arbor talking to everybody I could find. The unintended consequences of these programs, they had sort of left everybody dissatisfied. And this expensive machinery the school had built just imploded. If you're a journalist, you are not on anyone's team. All you're trying to do is figure out as many of the facts as you can gather. The facts are going to guide you to where the story lands. You're not taking sides. I'm Nick Confessori. I'm an investigations reporter for the New York Times. Journalists like Nick follow the facts wherever they lead. They go where news breaks, get answers firsthand, and publish what they find. That's fact-based reporting. Seek it out if you don't already.

Burlington knows you cannot forget Mother's Day. And be real, texting your sibling to add your name to their card isn't enough. Instead, head to your newly refreshed Burlington, where it's easier to shop for deals that'll make Mom proud. Find fragrances from perfume to candles or opt for a brand name bag. Plus, your store had a glow up, so it's more fun to shop for those special women in your life. Mom is Wow upside down after all. Burlington, deals, brands, wow. As Donald Trump continues with his sweeping obsession of retaliation and retribution and mounting daily threats against anyone who dares to dissent or anyone who dared to try to hold him accountable, Americans have made it clear that they will not accept doing nothing about it. Millions of Americans turned out in a massive and peaceful way this month in thousands of cities and small towns for one of the largest single-day protests ever in American history. But there's still that feeling. I'm sure all of you ask it and talk about it in your daily lives. I hear it every day. What else can we do about it to defy what we're seeing, to defy what feels wrong and defy the lawlessness of what we see playing out? Starting today, there's an answer. There's a new way to find some of those answers. And this is brand new, an exclusive announcement right here about the launch of an effort called defiance.org. It is a coalition of national security veterans, whistleblowers, and pro-democracy leaders, providing monthly updates and simplified direction on how you might choose to push back peacefully, lawfully, and defiantly against presidential abuses of power. Already, the first wave of former government officials have signed onto their new Declaration of Defiance and nationwide mutual aid pact to defend any group targeted by Donald Trump's retribution. Joining us now to talk about it, the head of one of the organizations partnering to launch defiance.org, the CEO of Represent Us, Maria McFarlane Sanchez Moreno, and the group's co-founder, Miles Taylor, is still here with us. So why did you do this? Look, after, as you know, Nicole, I got attacked by the president in April, I had a lot of wonderful people coming out of the woodwork to say, how can we help you? And I'm lucky. My family got taken care of. We've got the best legal team in America. We've got great supporters. But my concern was there was not the infrastructure to go protect other people and organizations as the Trump revenge campaign ramped up. And there's a lot of good ways to get involved. The protests. other nonprofit groups, but people feel adrift because this administration is flooding the zone with actions. And there is no one organization that can fix it. And so I keep getting asked, what can I do? And I got frustrated that there wasn't just one place people could go that's constantly giving new recommendations. And so we launched defiance.org. And that word means a lot to me, because literally that word. really turned things in my and my wife's head when we were thinking about fighting back. A lot of people told us to lay low. Lawyers, friends, family said, do not punch back because the risks of retaliation will go up.

But if we don't fight back, the risks of retaliation against other people are much higher. So we've launched Defiance to be that place. We call it a club for courageous Americans, and we use it to highlight the great groups out there people can get involved in and specific actions they can take to push back against the president's unprecedented revenge campaign in this country. So what, give me both ends of it. How does someone who feels like either being at an ICE protest or doing something to help someone in their community has them targeted or followed or they got a weird letter from the IRS, how do they receive services and how do people who want to support these people who stand up to the Trump administration plug in and help? So I think that's more of a question for you, Miles, with defiance, but represent us, the organization that I'm leading, is organizing people to focus on Congress. So we are taking one piece of the puzzle in a highly targeted way, right? It's not like go do a million things. We need to build power. We need to focus people's energy on the branch of government that is actually supposed to hold the executive branch to account. that has the authority to make decisions about tariffs, about war, about whether what's happening at the DOJ is okay, right? They could be asking much tougher questions. They could be doing so much more, and constituents have power over them. I know that it seems like... Congress is in many ways hopeless right now. They've been rubber stamping everything the executive branch does. But we have seen some cracks in the armor. Like even today, you saw Rand Paul and several other senators support a resolution to rescind the tariffs on Brazil. That's huge. We haven't seen that kind of independence with respect to something that is a priority for the president before. And we need to widen those cracks. We need to talk to the people who vote for these members of Congress and help them have the information, the tools at their disposal to then put pressure effectively on their member of Congress so that we actually recover some of our checks and balances, some of our constitutional structure. And ideally that would in turn protect. some of the people who are now being targeted, including Miles. You know, Nicole, I think I've told you this before, and if I haven't, I will never forget a meeting I had with Stephen Miller. Before I quit the Trump administration, we're in his little tiny second floor West Wing office, and he points to a drawer. And he said, you know what's in there, Miles? He said, what's in there? He said, there's a stack of executive orders that I'm going to issue in a second Trump administration. I'm going to issue, by the way. You read into that what you want. And he said, it's going to be a shock and awe blitz against the American people. He used the language of the airstrikes.

in the Iraq war, shock and awe, blitz. They are doing what Steve Bannon said and flooding the zone. And we've got to be able to react to your question in real time and quickly and dynamically. Now at defiance.org, we are not going to run those efforts. We are going to be that facilitator to find all those different groups that are doing that great work and take our big community and aim it at that great work to supercharge it where it's needed. when it's needed, and how it's needed. And we need that yesterday. Because these guys have had nine months to flood the zone without that type of rapid response. How will you know if it's working? Look, I mean, I think we see examples of that right now. Is Donald Trump hates more than anything being a loser? It's his single deepest fear. And he's been losing in the courts. But that's in part because there are groups that have taken it on at extraordinary expense to go bring those lawsuits. We mentioned during the break our friend Norm Eisen, who runs something called the Democracy Defenders Fund. They've been at the center of some of the main lawsuits against this administration. That's one of our founding strategic partners is we want folks at the grassroots who join this club for courageous Americans to get to help groups like that in their lawsuits against the Trump administration. So we win in court. And so that Trump loses in court. That's how we can hold them accountable. That's how we'll know it's working. And that sort of ties together the first conversation we have in this one. You guys keep us posted as you are out there in the trenches. It's really important, really important work. Thank you both. Maria and Miles. Thank you for being here today. You can check out and learn more about defiance.org. at defiance.org. We'll also post that information on our social media accounts. Coming up next for us, a new low for Donald Trump in the polls as he digs in on some of his key campaign promises. We'll show you what that looks like after a quick break. There's only one OZempic. Hello, I'm OZempic, and I'm other GLP-1s, kind of like him. OZempic, you redid your jingle? Ah, thanks for noticing. Catchy, right? No. Okay, then. Well, ask your doctor about which FDA-approved uses of me, the OZempic pen may be right for you. Call 1833-OZempic or visit OZempic. To view the medication guide and learn more about OZempic. Simagliteite injection, two milligrams. Only Novo Nordisk makes FDA-approved OZempic. There's only one OZMPIC. I told you was catchy. Here's what happened when one journalist reported on DEI programs. I decided to just focus on the University of Michigan. I obtained internal documents that showed that the school had spent about a quarter of a billion dollars on DEI programs. I spent two weeks in Ann Arbor talking to everybody I could find. The unintended consequences of these programs, they had sort of left everybody dissatisfied. And this expensive machinery the school had built just imploded. If you're a journalist, you are not on anyone's team. All you're trying to do is figure out as many of the facts as you can gather. The facts are going to guide you to where the story lands. You're not taking sides. I'm Nick Confessori. I'm an investigations reporter for the New York Times. Journalists like Nick follow the facts wherever they lead. They go where news breaks, get answers firsthand, and publish what they find. That's fact-based reporting. Seek it out if you don't already.

Burlington knows you cannot forget Mother's Day. And be real, texting your sibling to add your name to their card isn't enough. Instead, head to your newly refreshed Burlington, where it's easier to shop for deals that'll make Mom proud. Find fragrances from perfume to candles or opt for a brand name bag. Plus, your store had a glow up, so it's more fun to shop for those special women in your life. Mom is Wow upside down after all. Burlington, deals, brands, wow. The political warning lights are flashing bright red for Donald Trump. Americans are becoming fed up with his presidency quickly, driven in large part by his disastrous handling of the economy. A new poll out today by the economist in UGov finds that Trump is at his lowest approval rating yet, which is 39% of Americans approving of his job as president. Among Americans under 29, just 20% of them approve of his job performance. That is a 30-point drop since February. 35% of Americans approve of his handling of jobs in the economy, and just 31% of Americans approve of his handling of inflation. Despite these indicators, Donald Trump has doubled and tripled down. on his gimmicks and vision for the economy, continuing the terrorists that have raised costs for all Americans, refusing to use emergency funds to extend SNAP, and insisting on bailing out Argentinian farmers of all humans at the expense of American farmers at the behest of his political... benefactors. And it might be costing him his previously lockstep loyalty from his own base. I want to bring into the conversation MSNBC senior contributing editor, Michelle Norris, also joining us, MSNBC columnist, author of the newsletter to the contrary, Charlie Sykes. Charlie, there are a lot of theories out there for them. One of them, and I don't have... a ton of evidence is the declining influence of Steve Bannon, who used to speak out on behalf of Magas, who he, in his telling, relied on food stamps, relied on Medicaid. And he would publicly, again, have no insight into the private interactions with him. I know John Carl reports that he weighed in on the minerals deal, but I'm not sure how many voters benefit from that. So I don't know if it's a lack of being in touch with the one person in his orbit who seemed to be in touch with the plight of the non-tech oligarch billionaire. But there seems to be either a lack of awareness or complete political indifference to their suffering. Oh, I think it's complete political indifference at this point. You know, you look at those numbers and they are horrific. But here's a question to ask yourself, who is going to tell Donald Trump? Who in his orbit right now is going to say, look, you've got a real problem with this. These things are not working because right now he is really sort of high on the arrogance, the narcissism, the sense that he can continue to bulldoze through all the institutions. I mean, he has CEOs bringing him golden apples.

what the president of South Korea gave him a crown today. So Donald Trump is really wrapped in his own hubris right now. And the populist rhetoric was always just sort of eyewash. The question is, who is he actually listening to? Who's around him? What are the billionaires and the millionaires at Morrowago telling him to do? And that's what he's listening to right now. So, I mean, in Donald Trump's mind, and we talk about an alternative reality universe, you know, Donald Trump... has succeeded in creating an alternative reality for himself, where he thinks he has the wind at his back, that nobody can stop me, he'll get everything that he wants, when in fact those numbers would suggest, you know, massive cratering. You could also look at the support numbers of Hispanic voters who were crucial in 2025 and his collapse among them or the independent voters on issue after issue. And then the symbolism is breaking against, and we have this, you know, let them eat ballrooms moment at the moment when we're about to have these massive increases in health care premiums and the SNAP benefits being cut off. What are people talking about? They're talking about the fact that Donald Trump and his millionaire buddies are building a massive ballroom at the White House. So this is a moment where I think the hubris and the arrogance is kind of catching up with him a bit.

White House has said that building the ballroom is their top priority. It's Donald Trump's top priority was Ms. Levitt's quote. So again, one of the, I think, distinctions between the first term and a second term is that which is most unpopular is most front and center. And it gets to what Charlie's talking about, the hubris. John Fabro, who I just interviewed from my podcast, said he's sort of over trying to figure out why he's doing something. We should just talk about. the ramifications or the consequences. So I'm going to try to live that lesson. The ramifications of letting food stamps expire is that children will die. And again, some of them may be the children of people who voted for him. Some of them may, you know, experience hunger and food insecurity and be malnourished. But between Medicaid cuts and the expiration of food stamps. and the vaccine disinformation being pumped out by his, whatever we're calling it, the Robert F. Kennedy Jr.. runs, people's lives, people's families are less safe than they were one year ago. What do you see as sort of the level of or the lack of partisanship to sort of some of those realizations in this country? Well, I just want to marinate on what you said that the building the ballroom is the number one priority. Let's just sit with that for a minute. How is that possible that that is the number one priority with everything that is going on right now? One in five American children rely on SNAP benefits. One in five, that's a huge number. And while the administration tries to pretend that SNAP benefits gobble up a huge portion of the American budget, that's just simply not true. There are reserves that they could reach to. They could extend those benefits in November if they wanted to. They're just choosing not to. On the question of this being a partisan matter, I agree with Charlie. I think that we are at a hinge point right now. The pain... is going to be real for Americans very soon, not just abstract, it's going to be real. They're going to fill it in their health care prices. They're going to fill it in their food prices. They're going to see it in a very visible way. And, you know, you talked about the farmers and the ranchers. Beef prices are up right now. We're going into Thanksgiving. Turkey prices are up by almost 40%. And many of the people who, you know, I have, I have, great respect for the people who work the land in this country. And many of them supported Donald Trump, thinking that things would be different. And as much respect as I have for them, I'm surprised that they're surprised that he's... that he's not showing any respect for them, that he doesn't care for them. Because we've been here before. If you remember in the first administration, the farmers, they lost a large part of their market share to China because of tariffs. And in that case, Donald Trump, the Trump administration wound up bailing them out. But even with the bailout, the bulk of that money was some $81 billion, excuse me, $8.4 billion.

$8.4 billion went to primarily the biggest farmers. And it's the smallest farmers that really suffer. And I think that there might possibly be in this very divided moment in America an opportunity for people who don't normally agree with each other to have some sort of solidarity around this pain point. And you don't want to actually talk about opportunistic moments in terms of politics. But there actually might be one for Democrats to start to message to people who are in real pain about looking for another path forward to return to some sort of stability and perhaps even sanity in this country. Yeah, or any Republicans. You see, this is a moment to break with Trump. I mean, he's as unpopular as he's ever been. I have to sneak in a quick break. I'll ask both of you if that could ever happen or if I should stop asking on the other side. We're back. Charlie Sykes, these are the rest of the numbers in that economist poll. The country's heading in the right direction, 30% wrong direction, 61%. The economy is getting better, 18%. It's getting worse, 57% of all Americans. Trump's handling of trade with Canada, 55% disapproved, 24% approved. Donald Trump demolishing the East Wing to build a ballroom for himself, 61% disapproved, 25% approved. Should government pay Donald Trump $230 million because he was investigated? 19% of Americans say yes, 63% say no. I mean, that last number, that's retribution. So you've got 19% of Americans who are for a taxpayer extortion scheme in service of retribution. But more troubling, as we've been discussing, for Donald Trump, is the right track number down to 30, wrong track at 61. Almost 60% of Americans feel right now their lived experiences that the economy is getting worse. Only 18% of Americans think that Donald Trump is making it better. Those are horrific numbers, you know, in any context whatsoever. And yet yesterday on Air Force One wasn't he saying that it was too bad he couldn't run again because his poll numbers have never been higher. So, yeah, these are warning signs all around. And I'm not sure that he has a strategy to pull out. Look, he's going to try to buy off the farmers. He's going to try to buy off, you know, the cattle industry like he's done in the past. But the reality is that I think that there is more skepticism. Now, you asked a loaded question earlier, like, when will Republicans start to break with him? And I don't want to be the Lucy with the football with this, again, because most Republicans, this is the dynamic we need to understand. They want to keep their jobs. They don't want to be defeated for reelection, but they're much more frightened of being defeated. in a primary if Donald Trump breaks bad of them, as long as they think that a Trump endorsement against them would be death. Because if they lose in the primary, they are exiled from the entire world, right? They are excommunicated. If they lose in a general election, there's still a hope for them, a future in a MAGA Republican Party. So at this point, you are seeing some cracks. You're seeing people like Rand Paul are willing to vote against them, but I would not expect a jail break, even if these numbers stay low.

Well, so then that leads you to the next potential political consequence, which is a whole lot of voters who may find themselves feeling culturally aligned with what they believe the Republican Party to be, feeling like they can't afford, you know, if the economy is getting worse, you're down to pool of 18% of voters who could afford to roll the dice again on the MAGA Republicans, Michelle. Well, you know, Donald Trump's poll numbers are down, but we should also remember that the poll numbers, the approval ratings for Congress have dropped also. They're now at 15%. And at some point, You know, you have to ask how much, well, an endorsement for Donald Trump really mean, or from Donald Trump really mean, going forward. And the moment that that starts to lose currency is perhaps the moment that you start to see people realize that the only way to remove the stank that is lingering around their shoulders right now is to start actually taking care of the people that. put them in office and distancing themselves from the person who only cares about himself and his billionaire buddies. And I don't know when that's going to happen. I fear that it won't happen anytime soon, but I just don't think that the people who are in Congress who are avoiding face-to-face, you know, confrontations or even engagement with their constituents because they know that they're going to be yelled at and screamed at and asked tough questions. You know, at some point, the people who voted them in office are going to start to look elsewhere. And they may look past someone who has aligned themselves with Donald Trump, someone who is aligned themselves with the MAGA movement, because they're just creating a situation that is untenable for the average American. And those poll numbers should suggest that these are things that are going to happen quickly. But we're living in, you know, it's almost like Alice in Wonderland. I mean, we should not be seduced by logic at this point because it just doesn't apply to this political moment. Earth one and Earth two, I guess. But the numbers are something. Charlie Sykes, Michelle Norris, thank you, Bill, for joining us today. Quick break, we'll be right back.

Donald Trump's massive East Wing demolition project and his plans to build even more massive and gaudy new ballroom in its place is not popular with Americans, as we've shown you already. But now we're learning there also won't be any of the usual oversight around that project with Donald Trump firing all six members of the Commission of Fine Arts. That is... the commission or agency that reviews construction plans and projects in Washington, D.C., including at the White House, including his big ballroom. A White House official who was not authorized to speak publicly said that a new... slate of members who are aligned with Mr. Trump's policies would be appointed to the commission. We'll follow that story and see what they think of his ballroom. Up next, how to stop the wave of chaos and confusion coming to future U.S. elections. The next hour of Deadland White House starts after a quick break.

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