"What ICE shows us about the heart of Minneapolis”

Lyons also refused to apologize for the comments that the Trump administration made about Alex Predey and Renee Good after they were killed. Watch that. Mr. Lyons, will you apologize to the family of Renee Good for being called a domestic terrorist by the president and his leadership? No, sir. Why not? Sir, I welcome the opportunity to speak to the family of private, but I'm not going to comment on any active investigation. Is she a domestic terrorist? Sir, I'm not a comment on the investigation. Will you apologize to the family of Alex Preddy for also being called the domestic terrorist? Sir, again, I'm not going to speak to any ongoing investigation. That is being done in all of our names as Americans. That is where we are. Right now, with the world watching, that is who we are. It's also where we start the hour. I want to bring in former top ICE and DHS official, Jason Hauser. Also joining us, Puck News, senior political columnist, National Affairs analyst, John Howeman, is here. It is hard when it falls to you, Jason, to be the person that has to go on Capitol Hill and fill these questions. But I wonder what your thoughts were watching this today. Yeah, thanks to call. I watched, I watched all in here. You know, I thought it was very challenging to hear some of the answers. You know, it was, was looking here, you know, Congressman, Republican Congressman McCall literally saying out loud that the officers that were on the ground in Minnesota weren't trained to carry out those operations and calling out Chief Avino. You know, it's also, I think some of the, some of the questions could have been more, more direct. You know, we have a situation here where we're debating ice training, you know, and whether an ICE officer started last week or 15 years ago, they're not trained to protect Americans or protect themselves in these sort of operations that are being directed on them. And I think that's what a lot of the Congress members not do today, which is sort of who is putting them in these positions. But the two biggest things that I took away from the hearing was one. You know, acting director lines numbers were just, we're all over the place. You know, he was stating that there was 470,000 removals and 379,000 arrests by ICE in 2025. But if you look at a lot of the data, then only 14% of those were criminals.

It's incredible. I mean, Jason, what is the most productive space in which to have a conversation about, I mean, what's clear to me is that? communities are being terrorized. And I don't think that's a political statement and that's not an opinion, right? Like that's what's on the news. It is also clear to me that it is not in the interest of ICE or DHS to have, I think their approval rating among all Americans is down in the 20s to have, you know, upward of 78% of Americans disapprove of the job they're doing. What could change immediately if anyone, and we can debate whether or not there's will to change anything? But is the biggest problem, the quota, or is the biggest problem that there is no limit to the brutality they'll deploy against asylum seekers, immigrants, and American citizens alike? The issue is the quotas, and it's the tactics. I mean, we literally are living in a situation where one out of five federal law enforcement officers have been taken off going after criminals and have been turned on civil immigration enforcement. When there's been no net increase in arrests of criminals that have final orders of removal. We have a situation where in 2024, the Biden administration arrested 88,000 people, ICE arrested 88,000 that had criminal histories. This administration is on about the same Glycores when they've been given also $140 billion and they've been carrying out tactics that don't meet their objectives or their goals for the punitive sort of. optics of it in the news. But now we have a situation where Americans are being killed. And must I also say there has been an exponential increase of migrants in ICE detention also dying in custody. So we're not just seeing deaths on the streets, but we're seeing deaths in custody. And you have that when you lose focus on priorities to protect public safety. And you lose focus on creating an immigration system that works for the American people. John Heilman, it is an incredible number that Joe Biden and Donald Trump have basically the same number of... deporting violent criminals. Like that for all of the trauma, for all of the cannibalizing Donald Trump's political capital, right? He went from somewhere in the 40s to now, I think he was at about 46% when he was inaugurated. He's now down to 36 to 37% in just about every opinion poll, including Fox News. That all that and no difference in the numbers of the kinds of people he said he was going to deport, the quote, worst to the worst, he adjudicated criminals.

Well, right, Nicole. And look, you know, you have to start with the reality, which is that, you know, the one thing Donald Trump has done, and I'm not, I think the entire immigration policy, the entire deployment of ice, the ice surge is all of it, as you know, because I've been saying this from day one, I think it's all been an unmitigated disaster. So let's just say that. The numbers. You have to acknowledge that one of the things Trump has done in the first year was he sealed the border. And that's something that Joe Biden didn't do. And because of the fact that there was such a large influx of immigrants over the course of the four years of undocumented immigrants over the course of Biden's four years, it's a little hard to parse out what you're not comparing apples and oranges exactly, but, you know, Trump is dealing with a much more static population here. And so the fact that there are fewer violent criminals being deported despite all the initial effort, both points to the futility of the policy, but also the fact that the policy is not just futile but unnecessary. I mean, the reality is that Trump should be taken a victory lap right now. He would be his numbers on immigration if he had done the one thing that he has done that the American people totally approve of, which is to. cut off illegal immigrants coming across the border. He's done that very effectively. His numbers would be higher than they were on election day if he'd just stop there. The problem is, as Jason was saying, is that you've got these issues related to tactics, to strategy, and then the rot that starts at the top. And it's part of why I found certain aspects of this hearing frustrating in the sense that I don't think You made a comment about how it's difficult when you go up on Capitol Hill and have to answer for other people. It's particularly difficult when you go up on Capitol Hill. And again, I don't have any particular sympathy for this witness. But when you're having to answer for Donald Trump and Kristi Noem, those are the people who owe America, but certainly who owe Michael Pretty and Michelle Good, or Renee Good. Those are the people who owe apologies. The apologies should be given by the people who made the outrageous, completely baseless, and deeply, deeply disturbing and denigrating comments about these people, who they were, were they domestic terrorists, all of the things that were done to denigrate these two people who were shot dead in the street by ice. Those apologies should be coming from the people who made those comments and the people who run these programs at the very top. And those people are Donald Trump and Kristi Noem. I frankly don't care that much whether the head of CPP or DHS gives an apology or not because it would be an empty apology. And asking that person to apologize for things he didn't say, I think. you know, whatever. The bigger issue here is how do we stop it? And what do we learn from this hearing today that helps us understand what the most effective things that could be done and that Democrats could win on in this showdown, the standoff that we're seeing right now on DHS funding? What can they get done of that 10 things they've demanded, their list of 10? How many of those things can they get in this negotiation?

And are they the important things on that list that would bring the worst aspects of this nightmare to an end? On that note, I want to bring into our conversation, Democratic Congressman Jason Crow of Colorado. He's a member of the Armed Services and Intelligence Committees. Congressman, thank you for being here. I want to pull you into this conversation. with a story that my colleague, Rachel Maddow, has spent a lot of time on. And I'm going to read you some reporting in the New York Times about the effort to build warehouses and detention centers around the country. Quote, even as Trump has received Republican support for his deportation crackdown, the opposition illustrated the often contradictory politics of the immigration debate. While many voters in the United States support curbing illegal immigration, a majority have also come to disapprove of ICE. In Chester, New York, the site of a planned detention center, several hundred protesters in puffer jackets gathered next to a wooded area in the dark parking lot of the senior center. Maniland Tarado 66 lives in Greenwood Lake, New York, and showed up poisting a metal folding chair to sit out for a long night. Quote, I don't want to see American citizens jailed or have possible confrontations with law enforcement, Mr. Tarado said. What guarantees that they won't pick up local Chester residents? Minneapolis has changed, I think, people's experience of Donald Trump and his, you know, I guess much Ballyhooed mass deportation promises. They understand that until the program changes, until the quotas are no longer guiding the actions until the tactics are not everything that you can think of to brutalize. a person here seeking asylum or a person here illegally or an American citizen standing in the way, that until everyone is safe, nobody is safe. And I wonder how important you think this effort is to block the detention centers. Well, Nicole, Minneapolis changed a lot of Americans' view of this rogue, lawless agency that has become ICE about the Trump administration's approach to immigration enforcement. They have seen, in real time, in glaring video in detail, a murder of innocent Americans, abuses of senior citizens, of protesters, and many others. So it's changed a lot of people's view. What it hasn't done. has changed the Trump administration's approach to this. I'm going to disabuse everybody of the notion that the Trump administration is going to do anything different, right? That Tom Homan is somehow better, is more reformed than the CPBP head. No, they are going to double down and triple down, and I know that because they are signing the contracts. with contractors. They are retrofitting these warehouses. They are building, continuing to build the infrastructure to do what they have wanted to do along, and that is terrorized communities, mass deportation, ripped families apart, and gut our communities. And I'm going to do everything possible to stop it.

Jason Hauser was just commenting about the number of people who died in detention. And obviously what's happening inside detention centers is a lot more opaque than what's happening outside. But there's been some incredible reporting in ProPublica about the plight of children, some of them infants, some of them as young as two, five, 12, 14, writing letters. In the first term, those stories were enough to get Trump to reverse the policy. How do you see that reporting impacting the policy, if at all? Well, we need as much reporting. We need as much citizen oversight as possible. I want to give just incredible, incredible credit to the thousands of Americans who are out on streets, who are protesting, who are taking pictures, who are photographing, at great personal peril to themselves, as we have seen. who are documenting the abuses and who are shedding light on all of this. The Trump administration is the most corrupt administration in U.S. history. And on top of that, they have stonewalled over and over again congressional oversight. They don't show up to a lot of hearings and briefings. They don't give information to Congress anymore. So what we need to do is we need to be innovative. We need to be creative. We need every American who is patriotic and is willing to stand up for their country and the community to be documenting these abuses, to shed light on them. so we can all come together and stop it. Let me, I mean, to that point, let me show you how they answered questions about their own tactics, the use of pepper spray that in this instance had a one-year-old was exposed to it. Let me play that moment for you. Is it proper procedure to aim pepper spray into the window of a moving vehicle? I'm not familiar. I don't have all the details on this. It's not going to answer your specific question. Is it proper procedure? We try to avoid that, no. You try to avoid it. Because you understand it's dangerous, right? Not just for the driver, but for pedestrians, for other people who could be hit by a car if a driver is blinded, right? Were any of your agents ever investigated or disciplined for this incident? I'll have to get back on this incident. I believe it's still an ongoing investigation, but we have at least... I'd like to show you another video. This one is from Minneapolis. You're terrified. I'm not bringing it. You're a...

So as you can see, the agent sprayed pepper spray at close range directly into the face of an individual who had already been pinned to the ground by three other agents. This is not the intended use of this weapon, correct? The intended use is to try to avoid escalating. It's to de-escalate the situation. Well, he was already pinned to the ground by three other agents. I think he had been de-escalated. Congressman, to your point about the act of bravery that's involved in catching these moments, there's no defense and there's no explanation of de-escalation when someone's pinned down by three people. No, there isn't. I'm sickened by these images of these people dressed in combat uniforms. You know, I was an Army Ranger, a paratrooper. I did three combat deployments to Afghanistan, and that was tough work with tough people doing tough missions. You have these folks here basically... doing Commando cosplay, dressed in the same stuff that I was dressed in in Iraq and Afghanistan, trying to beat up protesters and innocent civilians. It's sick. It's sick. And everybody should be upset about it, right? This is a feature, not a bug, of the system they have designed. They have spent the last year putting videos out. Have you seen these videos that Kristi Noem has been put out, these recruiting videos? And they are hiring thousands of these agents that are looking at these gross videos saying, yeah, that's what I want to do with my life. That's what I want to do for a living. We are going to have to radically reform this and actually refocus law enforcement on restoring trust, going after violent criminals, which is what America deserves, not this craziness that the Trump administration has released on our streets. You have been speaking out on all of these issues, but one of them landed you in five of their lawmakers in some hot water. And last time you were here, we asked you if there was any update on the video that you and five other lawmakers made urging members of the military not to follow any orders that are illegal. Is there any update to the efforts to harass or investigate you or your fellow lawmakers? I joined my colleagues in that video last year, Nicole, because it is the right thing to do. It is not just a right for members of Congress to say follow the law and to speak up and to make sure that people are protected. It is actually our duty. It is what Congress exists to do. to make sure that the law is followed and people's constitutional rights are protected, and I'm never going to back down from that. Let's be honest what this is. The Trump administration is picking out leaders of the resistance and the opposition party to try to threaten us and intimidate us to send a message to the rest of America. But they have chosen the wrong people. We are not going to be intimidated and bullied.

Trump knows that fear is contagious. What I know is that courage is contagious. So it is time to stand up and speak up. And every American who is ready to defend their country now is our moment. Well, thank you for making sure that always includes doing shows like this one. Congressman Crowe, thank you for your time today. Jason and John stick around a little bit longer. We'll bring them back into this conversation on the other side of a short break. Also ahead for us. Donald Trump is telling Americans to turn the page on the Epstein scandal. But that is an anomaly. That is not what's happening anywhere else in the UK, for example, where we're seeing real investigations ensue. Real accountability might even cost the prime minister's job. gaping accountability gap between the UK and Donald Trump's cabinet later in the hour. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

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Well, yeah, Nicole, they've lost the culture. And as we've talked about on many occasions, you think about where, I believe Ben Smith wrote a piece about this in Semaphore today, you think about where Trump was a year ago, where MAGA was a year ago, where, and it's true for every president when they first come into office, when they first get inaugurated, it seems like they're, they've, they ride it on the tide of victory. And people think, oh, whether they're like it or they hate it, they think, man, this guy's going to dominate. The first hundred days, Dob is on television all the time and everybody's in their thrall. And there was a moment, I think, to the horror of some of us, where the strength of MAGA and Trump, the Trump brand and how much of a hold he had, not just on Washington, but on the culture, seemed not unbreakable because I never thought that, but certainly seemed greater than it had ever been before. It was greater than it was through all of Trump 1.0. They felt. They were creating the impression of invincibility. And in some ways in the culture that you kind of thought, well, this is going to, this could be durable. This could stick around for a while. This could be dominant. And it's a year later and they've lost all of it. They're now, they're now on the bad bunny thing. You know, you just hear the, the shrill. snowflake whining of people like Megyn Kelly, you know, American football is ours. It's ours. It's like they look like such losers. They look like such a bunch of losers right now. And the notion that they had like a hold on the culture is like it's almost unthinkable how much they've lost. Any of that kind of traction that they had, they seem so much less, even as they seem super scary in the policies that ISIS is carrying out and carrying out of Minnesota. As a cultural force, they seem totally deflated. And, you know, you look at these numbers. I'll just throw this in there. Again, from another network, I saw it caught Harry in on CNN last night going through Trump's numbers with non-college voters, where he won them. By 14 points in 2024, he's down. He's now losing them by nine. Wow. The core of the Trump non-college vote, which has been the strength that Trump had in 2016, in 2020, in 2024, he's had a 23-point swing with non-college. I think it might be non-college men, but it's certainly non-college voters across the board. He's lost ground with everybody, and he's lost ground in the vibosphere. And, man, it's just... As optimistic, as much as I said a year ago and said, this can't last, you know, but man, I'm a little nervous because it feels there's a lot more going on here in the culture. I would never have predicted on my most optimistic day that they would be looking so pathetic.

in the realm of culture and the place where culture and politics intersect as they do today. But they have lost the plot. And it's all because of Donald Trump, and I think a lot of it has to do with this specific thing. People in the country just look at what is going on in the streets of places like Minneapolis and Chicago and Washington and Los Angeles and saying that is not my America. I do not want this. And I think they saw the people in Minneapolis do this thing that trumped every phony depiction of masculinity. I mean, what Alex Prattie is doing, the reason he's in that scruffle is he's protecting a woman who's being pepper sprayed. Today they go up on Capitol Hill and they can't say anything about how maybe they shouldn't be pepper spraying, someone who's pinned down by three people. They see people out there in the bitter cold doing things far more dangerous, far more uncomfortable than anyone else has done en masse. I don't want to say that no one else has done. see this moment where people are stronger than him. And it just pops that sort of phony, phony projection of strength and replaces it with something. And I love that at the Olympics, all the athletes that are speaking out about their love for the American people. Because, oh, I love it. I love all of it. I love all of them. Have you seen the story about in Minneapolis, another great Minneapolis story. You may have covered this. I don't know. There's the story that's happening there. There are these white dudes. in Minneapolis who are engaged in a sport that they call ice fishing, where they put Mexican flags on their pickup trucks, to drive around the city to attract the ice agents, and the ice agents try to round them up, and then they find out that they're white dudes. I think that is... So fantastic and so creative and so, you know, that is, that, that's, you know, that's a good example of the way in which. Yeah. Yeah. No, they're going to write books about Minneapolis for a long time. And that's the masculinity flip. That's the, that's the, that's the masculinity flip happening right there. That's right. That's right. And all we have to do is cancel the thing Scott Galloway tells us to cancel. All right, Halman, you have to stick around. We need you at the table next time. When we come back, the Epstein scandal is threatening to take down a government. Just not here. Why the scandal is posing a grave threat to the Prime Minister of England, where, as our next guest says, politicians still have shame. And how what's happening in this country is the exception, not the rule. We're bringing that story next.

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that Trump is not being held to the same degree of scrutiny by us, the American people. From a new piece in the Atlantic titled British politicians still have shame, quote, the reasons for the Labor Party leaders deepening plight are moral because decency and shame still matter in British politics. But they are also institutional. An American president is less democratically accountable than the British prime minister because partisanship has disabled the checks that the founders placed. on the chief executive. I want to bring into our coverage staff writer for the Atlantic, Idris Colon. He's bylined on that piece we just arrived from. Also joining us, BBC U.S. special correspondent, our friend K. is back in home and still here. Idris, take us through what you've written. It's painful, but really, really glaringly true. Yeah, well, thank you for having me. I think there are three reasons that what is happening on the other side of the Atlantic is so much different to what's happening here. The first is that, you know, Keir Starmer was not in a good position before all of this. He was particularly unpopular, and this has come as just another scandal among many reversals and background issues. But the second, to go to the point of the piece, is that in the UK... Scandals are different there. You know, for example, Liz Truss gone into trouble for releasing a budget without the proper scoring from the budget office. You can imagine there's no such guardrail in American politics today. It was a big scandal when Boris Johnson had parties during COVID when the rest of the country was in lockdown. And, of course, we had a very different reaction here. I think that's very operational. The third, though, is that in the UK, there's a very strong incentive for... politicians of the leader's party to try to remove them if they're unpopular because they could become the successor. That's not the case here. The idea was that presidents wouldn't be removed like a prime minister, but that Congress and judiciary would exert a check in a way that isn't the case in parliamentary democracies. But what we've seen not just over Trump's presidency, but certainly exacerbated is that that just doesn't work anymore. And so there are just fewer penalties for American politicians. for associations with Epstein that are so different for what's going on with Keir Starmer, where he's never met the man himself, but because he appointed the wrong person to be the U.S. ambassador, this could be the thing that tanks his premiership. Yeah, I mean, I think it's just a... Like, we're without metrics in our politics, right? I mean, John and I've been talking for 40 minutes about how heinous the conduct has to be on the street for people to sort of wake up and begin resisting, right? And it's within 17 days the killing of two American citizens. I mean, what you just said is so important that Keir Starmer is under fire for appointing somebody else who had contact. with Jeffrey Epstein. Donald Trump, as one of Epstein's victim said, is in the files more times than Harry Potter's and Harry Potter. I mean, what is the view of America from the UK?

Well, you have a British member of the panel who can maybe answer that. But what I can say is that, you know, America used to aspire to a kind of moral leadership with the rest of the country, with the rest of the world, I mean. And what we seem that Donald Trump has proven over and over again is that if you do not apologize for scandals and have the backing of members of your party in Congress. then won't suffer the political consequences. And that's been true from, if you remember, 10 years ago, the John McCain. episode where, you know, he said that he likes soldiers who aren't captured. You know, that was an incident that proved to be kind of eternally recurring over the last decade in American politics. And again, in the UK, there are different incentives for the prime minister. You know, there's a bit more of an incentive to police your own leader in a way that just has proven to be non-existent here. And in some way, it applied to Democrats as well when it was clear that Joe Biden was not capable of running to be president. You saw a very similar initial reaction for Democrats, which was, you know, well, we don't want to be the ones who say that there's something wrong here. Kettie K, your thoughts on all of it. I think the idea for many Brits that America wielded moral leadership at the moment, particularly perhaps during this administration, has kind of gone out the window a while ago. I spoke to somebody who's close to the Prime Minister just today who said to me that, you know, Keir Starmer is absolutely furious and that Peter Mandelson, the former ambassador to the United States lied point blank to him. I don't know, though, that we can claim in the UK that we have. massive amounts of moral superiority just on the Epstein issues. I mean, you've seen people in Norway falling over this. A former crown princess is now feeling the heat. An ambassador has stepped down. A former prime minister is under investigation. We have, you know, issues clearly with our royal family. And the king has been heckled just twice recently. over Andrew's ties to Epstein and what he's going to do about investigating Andrew's ties to Epstein. I do think, as Idris points out, some of this is structural in the UK that Keir Starmer came in, has failed kind of to get the UK economy turned around in the speed that people would have wanted. He was not particularly in a strong position. And Parliament being the kind of... snake pit that it is, there are people even with his own party who are kind of smelling blood and plenty of people who would, you know, like to replace him. So some of this is his own weakness as a prime minister. And maybe there's something in a social contract, Nicole, in British public servants and British public life, that they are under a huge amount of scrutiny for even tiny kind of infringements of expenses regulations. And so when something like this comes along...

and these are people who are paid for by the British public, they don't have much tolerance and aren't prepared to cut this Prime Minister much slack. It is extraordinary when the King is fielding questions about the Epstein files. I want to ask you about that. No one's going anywhere. We sneak in a short break. We'll be right back on the other side. Do you think that Britain's royal family has questions to answer to your committee? Well, we would love to hear, you know, from anyone. Obviously, I can't subpoena in foreign countries. What question is, does the king have to answer? Oh, the king has to answer what he knew. The Epstein files could possibly bring down a British prime minister. Why do you think that is happening there, but it's hardly politically hurting an American president? Well, I think it's important to note that right now the Congress is controlled by Donald Trump's allies. We're all back. Heilman, it is, you know, when they look back, it is one of these moments they'll look at and say, how did the Epstein files come out with, you know, tens of thousands of mentions of Donald Trump and Kirsch Keir Starmer was on the chopping block? I mean, your thoughts. Well, to Caddy's point before, if Keir Starmer was not so weak to begin with, he wouldn't have this problem. And there are, because of that parliamentary system, there are a lot of people in the Labor Party who were already looking at opportunities to try to take Keir Starmer down, and now they have a golden opportunity. So there's a lot of just kind of brass knuckles snake pit politics going on in London. But I will say this, 38,000. times Donald Trump is in this, this code. At least I heard a Democratic Congresswoman yesterday cite that number, 38,000 mentions of Donald Trump in this cache of the Epstein files alone. And it just makes you think, just imagine. what the amount of Donald Trump mentions and Donald Trump content that's in the other two million or three million documents that they haven't released yet. It's astonishing to me. And Nicole, I got to come back. I know you talked about Howard Ludvick earlier in the show, but I got to say this. I mean, Donald Trump is probably the ultimate poster boy for this, for this scandal, Jeffrey Epstein, off this mortal coil. You know, Donald Trump, the questions around him, he's still personifies. He's still the greatest mystery. What exactly did he do? What did he know? When did he know? All that stuff. But Howard Lutnick.

who long after we all knew that we shouldn't put stuff in email, we shouldn't put stuff in text if we don't want us eventually to become public at some point, long after there was a cloud that existed, he put all this stuff in email, he put all this stuff in text, and then he went and did that podcast interview where he adopted that tone of self-righteousness and lied through his teeth about his connections to Jeffrey Epstein. And I think that in that way, That is about, not just about stupidity, although there's some stupidity there. And it's clear Howard Lutnick is not the brightest bulb in the chandelier. But he also, it's about impunity, a sense of impunity, that he can get away with anything, that it's never going to get back to haunt him. Entitlement and impunity. That is what this Epstein scandal is most about. That is what we most learned about. I mean, it's obvious about a bunch of ugly... sexual violence. But on top of that, it's about this whole cadre of people who felt so entitled and so free of the rules that they could do anything and it would never come back to haunt them. And then he walks up to this hearing today and tells a story where he says, well, let me tell you, I went to the island. It was a family vacation. There was nothing untoward there. Again, we will have a question, a good discussion about hanging around with a convicted sexual predator. That's pretty untoward on the face of it. But who's going to believe him now? Why should anybody credit a word that comes out of Howard Lutnick's mouth? about his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, given the gratuitousness of the lie he told before. I just don't believe a word he said. And I think that it is just so emblematic of everything that this scandal is about. To me, he's the guy who tells the story in a lot of ways of what's so sick about this entire thing. Well, and Katie, it's what the victims... Fear is still being withheld in the redactions where their personal information, identifying information addresses has been released. And at least six, according to Ro Khanna on the show yesterday, men had their names redacted. I want to ask you what the investigations would look like if there are any that ensue in the UK. Well, I think, I mean, there will be ongoing investigations. I mean, there's going to be investigations that have already been announced into Peter Mandelson, the former ambassador. The king has said that there may have to be more investigations into his brother, Andrew, who was a prince and is no longer a prince. So those investigations are taking place. I have little doubt to John's point that if Howard Lutnick was serving at the moment in the British government, he would be out of a job. in a second. I mean, there is no question. I mean, this question of impunity, actually, whatever the reasons are, whether it's systemic, whether it's to do with Keir Starmer's weakness, whether it's to do with some social contract or a higher standard of moral probity, it is true that...

There is an accountability in the UK that we are not seeing here. I mean, you've got three people in the British government who have already lost their job, including the ambassador. You've got a prince demoted. You've got Prince William's staff being asked about this. You've got the king being heckled about this. There is a sense that people who are in positions of power are losing that power. And when you look at Howard Lutnick's performance and the fact that he can get away with, A bald-faced lie visiting Epstein four years after the conviction, that is, as you say, it's the victim saying, this is our worst nightmare, that we see the lies and none of these people are being held to account. Visiting him on his island where so many girls' nightmares were realized with all of his kids and multiple nannies. And then having enough cognizance to add in his testimony, I left with all my nannies. Well, what did you think was going on there if you thought that you would be asked if you left any of them there? It's unbelievable. Maybe we'll have to marinate in that a little bit more tomorrow. Idris, Katty, John, thank you all so much for being with us today and being part of our coverage. John, thank you for spending the hour with us. One more break. We'll be right back.

Everybody's scared. I'm scared. Everyone's scared. That's the whole thing is that, you know, everyone thinks like I'm talking to you and I look so brave. I'm terrified. Yeah. I'm terrified. Of what? Like that one comment will be taken out of context and attacked by the right and the left or both or all or none. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's just like, you know, you take a chance. You take a chance. And it is scary. Yeah. It is a scary place to stand in. Yeah. And, you know, and I just hope if anybody takes anything. away from our conversation is what I went back to in the beginning. Even Martin Luther King was scared. It's not what you do or don't do because you're scared. It's like, it's baked in that we're all scared. It's a scary moment. And then what do you do while you feel afraid? Yeah. Yeah. Both. That is my dear friend Rosie Perez. She is my guest on the newest episode of The Best People podcast. You can hear the entire conversation. She'll make you laugh. She'll make you cry. She talks about, do the right thing. It's amazing. Just scan the QR code on your screen or download the Best People wherever you get your podcast. One more break. We'll be right back. The news is a lot. So we want to thank you for letting us into your homes. In the U.S., there's a break-in every 26 seconds. But when intruders step near, Simply Safe home security steps up. Stop. This is SimplySafe. Police are on the way. Using AI alerts, U.S.-based live agents help deter break-ins. SimplySafe, no long-term contracts. Save 50% on your new system with professional monitoring at Simplysafe.com slash SXM or with promo code SXM. Outdoor deterrence requires a SimplySafe Active Guard outdoor protection plan starting at $49.99 a month. Visit Simplysafe.com slash licenses for alarm licensed information, Tennessee 2012.