“The White House and the spectacle of the war in Iran”

Watch Disclosure Day at Home Now with exclusive bonus features. If you found out we weren't alone, if someone showed you, proved it to you? Would that frighten you? Well, now the truth belongs to 7 billion people in an original event film directed by Steven Spielberg from a screenplay by David Kep starring Emily Blunt, Josh O'Connor, Colin Firth, Eve Hewson, and Coleman Domingo. Find Disclosure Day on major digital platforms now with no subscription required, also in theaters. You know, recommendations can be great. Maybe someone recommended this podcast, and here you are. But home projects are different. If a podcast isn't your thing, you lose a few minutes. If you hire your cousin's neighbor to mount your TV, you might end up with a lopsided screen and wall damage. Maybe I know a guy just isn't enough for your home. That's why Thumbtack works. It matches you with top-rated local pros with photos, reviews, and credentials all in one place. For your next home project, try Thumbtack. Hire the Wright Pro today. What just seems so insane based on what he ran on. I mean, this is why a lot of people feel betrayed, right? And he ran on no more wars and these stupid, senseless wars, and then... We have one that we can't even really clearly define why we did it. Well, but he said he's against endless wars. Well, they're all endless wars. They're all endless. I know, I know. Why more Joe Rogan? I'll tell you why. Because no one, no one aided Donald Trump in the final weeks of his presidential run more than that guy. So to hear him. articulate regret and remorse is something. Hi again, everybody. It's now 5 o'clock in New York, cause and effect. Go about an historic betrayal of your own political coalition, including Joe Rogan, and watch them reject you publicly. But that emphatic disassociation with Donald Trump's war in Iran isn't just a Joe Rogan thing. It isn't just happening in the manosphere. It appears to be a whole of American culture thing. Consider one slice of this story in particular, the garish and grotesque montages published on social media by the White House lately. The most recent, a video of bombs dropping in Iran spliced with big hits from the NFL, including Hall of Famers Ed Reed and Ray Lewis. It's video we wouldn't normally show you here, but we do because of the outrage around the videos. And the corners it's coming from, all corners of American life. From the Huffington Post, quote, a representative for Ray Lewis confirmed to the Huff Post that the White House did not reach out to him or his team for the video, quote, I did not approve my image or football highlights being used to compare football to war. Lewis said in a statement to Huff Post, quote, the game I love is about discipline, brotherhood, and respect. War is something entirely different. Lives are at stake. God bless our troops and their families. Ed Reed, on the other hand, posted simply, quote, I do not approve this message, end quote.

In similar fashion, the White House cut up real-life drone strike footage with movie scenes, including Tropic Thunder. That film's director, Ben Stiller, replied like this, quote, Hey, White House, please remove the Tropic Thunder clip. We never gave you permission and have no interest in being part of your propaganda machine. War is not a movie, end quote. Outside of podcast world and Hollywood, the Archbishop of Chicago amplified that message as well in a statement that read in part, quote, our government is treating the suffering of the Iranian people as a backdrop for our own entertainment, as if it's just another piece of content to be swiped through while we're waiting in line at the grocery store. But in the end, we lose our humanity when we are thrilled by the destructive power of our military. We've become addicted to the spectacle of explosions. And the price of this habit is almost unnoticeable as we become desensitized to the true costs of war. But the longer we remain blind to the terrible consequences of war, the more we are risking the most precious gift God gave us, our humanity. I know that the American people are better than this. We have the good sense to know that what is happening is not entertainment but war, and that Iran is a nation of people, not a video game. Others play to entertain us. The broad scope of America's pushback is no surprise, taking into account with the New York Times published this week, the historic unpopularity associated with Donald Trump's war in Iran compared to other conflicts over a number of decades. That is where we start the hour. President of Media Matters for America, Angelo Carousan is here. Also joining us, senior contributing editor, Michelle Norris. And with me at the table, hot off a fantastic turn on Stephen Colbert's program. Paul Reikoff is here. He's the host of the Independent Americans podcast and the founder and CEO of Independent Veterans of America. I want to ask you what you think of these condemnations of the efforts to market the war. It's really important. It's a breaking point, I think, and it might be even something better. In every crisis, there's an opportunity. This might be the most unifying moment that we can remember in America. You are never positive. You're blowing my mind right now. This is not what I thought you were going to say. I think, I mean, there is a lot of death and destruction, and this is very, very bad. But there's also a moment happening where you lost Joe Rogan. You definitely don't want to piss off Ray Lewis and Ed Reed on any level, right? Newt Gingrich. Explain why. Explain why that's so powerful. Because it's so many different segments, and they have so much reach that goes beyond politics. Right? When you're talking about... Well, that's totally the other side of our civic life. Yeah, and people who are trusted, right? Like, people trust Ray Lewis. He won a Super Bowl, right? You've got people, even Newt Gingrich today, right? It's an entire spectrum of people from all political backgrounds who are saying no to this war in Iran and no to boots on the ground and no to more. And I think it's important because it comes right after the stunning lack of popularity around ice. So it's like a one-two punch that's crossing...

all different partisan backgrounds. And I think it can be a moment for the country to come together, if not around Trump specifically with some of his heart, his base still has a problem with, around the war in Iran, around ICE, and around American values, because war reveals who people are, the best of you or the worst of you. And it's revealing how terrible Donald Trump is, how despicable he is, and how shameless he is. I mean, he wouldn't accept responsibility today. In that moment when they asked him, you know, will you take responsibility? He didn't do it. And a leader is supposed to be responsible for everything we do and everything we fail to do. And the buck stops with him and everybody can see it. And what is it about, what is it that gives people newfound confidence to reject him? It's popular. Like, you know, I think that this has happened at the award shows and like the Grammys. There were these moments where like, where people kind of broke the ice, right? And that was important because it was tough to attack Trump. Ice was like a gateway. It was an on-ramp. They could attack ice without saying Trump's name. And that kind of built a level of popular support. And it became popular. to oppose ICE. It became popular to come out against the Iran war. And that gives people permission to enter the conversation, especially if they're only tracking on sports. And that's the real problem here, is he's crossed into sports, he's crossed into SpongeBob, he's crossed into everything. So the entire country is watching, and they don't like what they see. Yeah, I mean, Michelle, I think that Paul hit on something really important. When the history of these times is written, Two people will have put everything that we're covering today in motion. One, the survivors of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell's heinous abuse. And two, the citizens of Minneapolis. Yeah. And, you know, I do think Paul is right about this being an on-rent, but I'm not sure that people are standing up against this because it's popular. I mean, we're at war. War is something that people take very seriously. And this White House doesn't. seemed to be taking this seriously. I mean, we, you know, just two days ago, the president was calling this an excursion, which I think he probably maybe meant incursion instead of excursion, but, you know, they're not even willing to explain this to the public. You know, as to that video, one of the European news outlets called it Slopaganda. And I think that that's a... pretty good word to describe the use of these intercutting videos to turn war into some sort of game theory, the gamification of war. It does not do anything to advance the work and the effort of the soldiers that are involved in this war right now. It does nothing to project strength or discipline. It does nothing to secure the... homeland here on the ground where people are very worried about their own safety and security. And let's just remember that the person who's in charge of terror threats in the Department of Homeland Security is a 23-year-old who just recently graduated from college and has worked as, I think, a gardener at some point in the past. And a grocery store clerk has no national security background. And most of the people who had national security backgrounds at the FBI have also been dismissed. So the public sees all of this. They saw what

happened in Minneapolis. And they saw the value in speaking up. They saw the country, they saw the president take us to war without an explanation about why were there or what the, what the objective is, or what the game plan is. And I think more and more people are willing to speak out against this. And this is, remember, the public opinion is low at the beginning. It has nowhere to go but down at this point. It's at historic lows. Let me put those numbers up, Angelo. I mean, there is no. example of wars becoming more popular as men and women in the military pay with their lives. Eight service members have died. 140 have been injured. And 41% of Americans support the war at this point. In World War II, 97% supported it after 9-11. At this point, in the war in Afghanistan, 92% supported it. At this point, the Persian Gulf War in 1991, 82% of Americans supported it. Panama, 89, 80%. The Iraq War in 2003 at this point, 73% of Americans supported it. Those numbers would... dropped dramatically. 1950, 75% of Americans supported the Korean War at this point. Kosovo, 58% down to 41% right now. It's a real tragedy for the military who doesn't have a say in when the country goes to war. But it is that number. That number is squarely because of Donald Trump's conduct in taking the country to war. We've been tracking over the last 12 days. There are nine public explanations for why we're there. There are four timelines that have been articulated. And yesterday, it was, quote, almost completed in just beginning. So, you know, we've talked for years now about narrative dominance. There's no narrative grasp on the war in Iran. No, and I think a lot of our conversations sort of dovetail with those numbers that you pointed out, because when you have narrative dominance, you can affect people's perceptions and feelings about a particular issue. You can shape the vibes. And if you don't, like you have right now, you get the opposite. People can actually, they can get their experience a bit unfiltered or unadulterated. You know, those numbers would be very different if all of these cultural figures were cheerleading it, or at minimum saying nothing. As Paul noted, it's created a permission structure for more people to talk about it. Or if Joe Rogan was out there explaining a rationale for why we really need to be doing this and why you need to give the administration more time and space, right? At minimum, it could help be a buffer for people say, okay, maybe I should hold off of a second. For all these figures, we're doing what they had been doing for Trump for all these years. and backfilling his, you know, his policies, his claims with their own narrative reinforcement, we would be in a different place.

And so it is reinforcing why it matters so much. And I was so glad you made that point in the opening, because I do get it. When people talk about Joe Rogan, I hear the so what. And the so what is exactly what you articulated. It has an effect on the perception. And then by extension, the hope is that it has a effect on the politics, which is how you get change. That bottom, the perception that we're seeing in the public. is so different now it hasn't yet affected the way republicans who actually have the levers of power and checks here can actually change the way or what the what the president's doing would change the course and direction here but it is brewing and it is simmering just another example as i was thinking about the what you and pa were talking about the beginning about the wide-scale culture one figure who's been out against this is this guy sneko is probably one of the most influential people that People in politics and this audience have never heard of. He's a huge online influencer. Did video games. Now he does right-wing politics, so really far-right politics, and his audience is huge and highly engaged. And he was out there calling those videos Slop. criticizing the war, saying that the Trump administration had no plan. This made no sense. I mean, this is a far-right online streamer who every other day is spouting nonsense who is out there telling his audience that the current president and the plan is more ridiculous than the day-to-day programming that he provides. And that is a reinforcement of just how widespread this is. Yeah, sure, there are pockets that are all in on this war. But it is far and few between. And that means that Trump is not able to tell a narrative. And this engine behind it is not able to backfill it and shape the perception and the politics. What's interesting to me, Paul, Alangelo is saying is, so Trump beats Lindsey Graham in the 2015 Republican primary. and sort of sides with the isolationism, which Trump sees before the Republican, his opponents in the primary do. And now he's siding with Lindsey Graham on foreign policy. Let me show you the hot war of words between Lindsey Graham and Megyn Kelly. To our friends in Spain, man, you have lost your way. I don't want to do business with you anymore. I want our air bases out of Spain into a country that will let us use them. To our Arab friends, I've tried to help you construct a new mid-east. You need to up your game here. I can't go to South Carolina and say we're fighting and you won't publicly fight. What you're doing behind the scenes, that has to stop. The double dealing of the Arab world when it comes to this stuff needs to in. I will send Lindsey Graham donuts for life if anyone in South Carolina actually walks up to Lindsey Graham and complains about Spain. But let me read Megyn Kelly's response. Quote, when did Lindsey Graham become our president? In the past 24 hours...

He, Lindsey Graham, has threatened Lebanon, Cuba, the Saudis, the wider Arab region, and now, Czech's notes, Spain. Let's get real. The problem with Lindsey Graham isn't just that he's a homicidal maniac. It's that Donald Trump likes him and is listening to him, and Trump's favorite channel is parading him around like a Hefner Bunny in stockings on every show. I am in the rare position of agreeing with Megyn Kelly. Lindsey Graham is a spectacular, raging, aggressive, violent hot mess. And he is bad for America. This is why I wish that Stephen Colbert would go back to South Carolina and run against him because Lindsey Graham is bad for America. And he's also very bad for Donald Trump. I don't think he's helping. Even Megan McCain called him out on that this week. I think it's also really important that Steve Bannon also has been aggressive in criticizing directly to camera Donald Trump. Look, the American people are not stupid. They're slow sometimes, right? We saw that on Iraq. We've seen that before. But they're not stupid. And they know when someone's lying to them. And they know when someone's changing their position. And he promised people no regime changed wars. He promised them no new wars. He promised him no forever war. So did Tulsi Gabbard and a cacophony of everyone around him. And they know that this is a lie. And I think that that's where I have faith in the American people to push back. But I'm also concerned because Donald Trump doesn't care about public opinion. He continues to go forward. So this is another moment for the Democrats and, of course, the Republicans. what's your strategy to stop him if he doesn't care about public opinion and he keeps going anyway? I mean, Tulsi Gabbard is an interesting case, Michelle. Tulsi Gabbard and JD Vance and Pete Hegseth, I think all rose to exist in Donald Trump's circle because they so agreed with him on his promise over the course of three presidential elections to never get the country embroiled in another war in the Middle East. Well, we have an LBM candidate, loyalty before merit. You know, this cabinet talks a lot about get rid of DEI. There are several people who are in positions that are beyond their reach in any other administration. And so the president is not surrounded by people who will tell him the truth, who will challenge him in any way. And he's not willing to then turn around and try to explain this word of the public. I was looking at the, you know, the graphic that you showed, the popularity of wars at the start. You know, in previous administrations, presidents have had to bring the public along with them. In the 1940s, they had to sell World War II. The American public was battle fatigued after World War I, but there was a fear of fascism and democracies falling overseas. And so they made the case. In the 2000s, they made the case after people were worried about terrorism after 9-11. And so they made the case for Afghanistan and then later Iraq. The president here is not willing to make any kind of coherent case. He's not willing to make a case at all. And this is before, the public opinion is as low as it is, before you see the normal drivers that will sink public opinion about a war. When you see as, you know, the Cardinal talked about the link between the battlefield and the living room, before people start seeing images. We saw the images from Dover, Delaware. If war continues, as it usually does, you will see much more of that. You will see images of things that will really turn public opinion. And the other thing, you know, to bounce to a different war in Vietnam, one of the things that really drove public opinion there were the Vietnam veterans themselves coming back and speaking out against a war that they didn't understand and did not feel good to them. And so the public opinion is low at this point without those kind of drivers. And when that starts happening, you know, it has nowhere to go but down.

All right, no one's going anywhere. Also ahead this hour, there's brand new reporting about how Donald Trump is not only using the FBI to investigate his debunked and false claims about the 2020 election in the state of Arizona, but also a branch of the Department of Homeland Security, usually charged with fighting drug cartels, all in a likely effort to undermine November's midterm election results. Arizona's governor will be our guest in what's being done to protect and safeguard democracy ahead of the midterms. That's later in the hour. Delane White House continues after a quick... Break, don't go anywhere. Watch Disclosure Day at Home Now with exclusive bonus features. If you found out we weren't alone, if someone showed you, proved it to you? Would that frighten you? Well, now the truth belongs to seven billion people in an original event film directed by Steven Spielberg from a screenplay by David Kep starring Emily Blunt, Josh O'Connor, Colin Firth, Eve Hewson, and Coleman Domingo. Find Disclosure Day on major digital platforms now with no subscription required, also in theaters. You know that thing where you get an amazing pair of shoes at a really great price and want to tell everyone about it? Yeah, so do we. Here at Designer Shoe Warehouse, we'll give you something to brag about. Like the latest styles from brands you love, or the trends everyone's obsessing over. Or shoes that make you feel like, well, you. So go ahead, show off a little. Buying shoes that get you have prices that get your budget. Head to your DSW store or DSW.com today. DSW. Let us surprise you. Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co-founder of Angie. From roof repair to emergency plumbing and more. When you use Angie for your home projects, you know all your jobs will be done well. Angie, the one you trust to find the ones you trust. Find a pro for your project at Angie.com. We can't just sit here and not fight for the American people. That's how Democrats lost the vote was because Americans did not think we were fighting for them. We didn't care that their gas prices went up. We were so worried about niche issues that we're not paying attention to the fact, you know, my farmers are just... devastated. I have so many farmers to come to me and like, you know, I'm seventh generation, but there's not going to be an eighth generation. The tariffs have taken away our markets. The tariffs are now made our input costs too high, and I'm looking at selling the family farm. They want us to fight for them. And we're going to fight for them. And when we get back into control, we're going to make sure that we've not just fixed the problems, that we make things better than they were before, and that we show folks that we're willing to fight for average families and that we're not going to waste our nation's resources, whether that is our natural resources or whether that is the most important resource, the most valuable resource we have, the men and women who wear the colors of this nation.

That is a winning message, whether Democrats can stick to that, whether Senator Tammy Duckworth can get all of her colleagues on that message or not. I think we'll see that play out in the coming days. But, I mean, Angelo, that is the political battlefield on which the next eight months will play out. And that is the battlefield on which Democrats are winning over and over and over again in solidly red, solidly Trumpy, legislative races and state races. Yeah, and I think that ties in in two ways with what we would talk about in the first segment. One is, you know, we talk about when Trump and the right has narrative dominance, they're projecting their message, they're controlling the story. One of the effects of that, though, is that it's very, very difficult for anybody else to get their message through because they've so crowded out anything else. And when you have this moment, like we were talking about all the disruption and the fact that they're all over the place and they don't have, you know, there's not, you know, there's all these spaces, all these cracks. which means there's a place for you to go. And so when you have a really good message now, as Senator Ducker was pointing out, and even if that's not the perfect message, if you have the impetus, the fight, it actually has greater chance of being of rewards, of working, of building political will, of building wider coalitions and bases of support, because unlike in previous situations where they have total control over the communications landscape, they don't right now. So if you do a really good job, you'll have a good chance of getting something back, politically end it working, and building political power. That's how Trump built political power. He used the information landscape, built and organized power on the fringes, and then controlled the center as a consequence of it. And he took advantage of the landscape. Well, this is a meaningful part of the landscape. And then the tie into something Michel was talking about, which is that as more and more of these of these people that are in the military either come back or start to speak up more. We're going to hear more about what's being said there. And one of the narratives that we don't talk about a lot in the national media that is sinking through, at least in the operational side of this, is that this is a holy war. Now, I remember when Pete Hegseth was first appointed. And one of the things, because I remember he was a media figure. One of the things that was so clear at the time is that he saw the military as a flaming sword for Christ. And that is playing out. in the way that they are talking about this at the front lines, as one of the reasons why they're doing this, that this is somehow a bigger thing. And the rest of the Christian media is backing that up, that this is the prophecy, that Trump has been put there by God. And we're going to start hearing those stories, not just stories of incompetence and all the terrible stuff that we're beginning to see. We're also going to see the ridiculous, crazy reasons why they're putting people on the front line and how they've been treating the troops and the soldiers that they're putting in harm's way. and the things they're making them do for all these weird reasons. And that's going to further incentivize people. So when you're in the ring and in the arena, it gives you a chance to also use that information as it comes back to actually really maybe turn the tides here. I'm not an optimist, but this is a real opportunity, and we shouldn't lose sight of that. I have a million more questions about the religious piece. I'm going to follow up with you on that. But I just want to put out a couple of names. What Senator Tammy Duckworth said is a message you hear from Mark Kelly, Senator Elissa Slotkin, Congressman Crow. I mean, there, you know, one, it's, you know, it's one. But there is a group of Democrats, and those Democrats have gone toe to toe with Donald Trump of the video they made telling men and women of the military to disobey in a legal order. Senator Tammy Duckworth has always been a fighter. It's, you know, it's.

It's sort of her relationship with her constituents and her relationship with her country. I wonder if you see in them this sort of winning, front forward sort of political messaging. I see potential. And I have tremendous respect for Tammy Duckworth. I'm honored to know her. She sacrificed two of her legs for this country. She is the right kind of messenger. It's kind of a choose-your-fighter moment, right? Where you've got to put people up against Pete Hegseth and Trump who are dominating the narrative. But they have to have more than messengers. They have to have a message, which is starting to develop. But most importantly, they need a plan. They continue to criticize Trump appropriately for not having a plan on Iran. The question now for the Democrats is, what is your plan to stop Iran? Is it just wait till November and we're going to win the election? To stop the war on Iran? To stop the war on Iran. To stop boots on the ground. To stop him from going to Cuba. How are you going to get ahead of him and finally stop him from doing anything? And I think this is where the Democrats have to be more specific in their goals and their planning. They shut down the government over health care. They shut down DHS appropriately over ice. What are they going to shut down to stop the caskets from coming home? That's what I think the American people want to hear. And they can't assume that there are going to be free and fair elections in November. So what are you going to do to ensure that there are? Because Trump has made it clear. He will disrupt the elections. He does not want an open and free election. And there is a danger right now, which is Trump's desperation. He is very low in the polls. He is very desperate. He's talking about the threats to the homeland, which are real. Despite his messaging, the FBI is now reporting there could be drone threats to California. Those threats are real. So if a bad moment happens, we have to be able to offer an alternative narrative. but also an alternative plan. Talk about what Angela is talking about, the interconnectedness of religious messaging. I've said this from when Pete Hegseth was nominated. He is a culture warrior. I've called him the acting secretary of culture war because he was put there first to make the Pentagon an instrument of the culture war. And they started there. They threw a Hail Mary. They got it through. And then everything else became easy after that. So they've been waging the culture war within the Pentagon, banning books, removing rights for women, pushing Christianity, changing the way. pastors and the religion is interwoven into everything. And now they're turning the Pentagon as the tip of the spear for their culture war, not just in the U.S., in the streets, and by extension, ICE, but to the Middle East and to the world. This is, in many ways, the most dangerous course of action with Trump and a group of culture warriors at the forefront. But now the challenge, not just for Democrats, but for Americans, and I think for independents especially, who are 45 percent. What is the alternative? What is the alternative plan for America? Who are the alternative? leaders, not just in politics, but especially around the outside of the military, retired generals, this is a time for them to meet the moment too. I mean, Michelle, we saw this at a state level. The state officials sort of responding or seeming to channel the energy and courage of their own constituents. Where are you seeing this across the country?

Well, I think you're seeing it at the state level. I think you're seeing it in some pulpits. It's interesting how people are now using their sermons. You noted the Cardinal in Chicago. I think you're probably going to hear that in other places. You know, when Paul was talking about the message that people are expecting, I think people are also looking for reassurances now. I went back and looked at the messages that previous presidents have... delivered to the public when they have led the country into war. We are in a really strange moment, Nicole. We are engaged in a war without a declaration of war. We are engaged in a war without an explanation for war. We are engaged in a war without clear objectives about what that war is supposed to achieve. And I think if Democrats and independents, but particularly Democrats because they are in charge, can figure out how to step into that space, and to provide assurances, but also a reality check on the very real threats that we face. And other countries that are not directly involved in this, they're already communicating with the public about what they should be doing in matters of security to protect themselves and their families when they travel, about whether, you know, we might see some sort of cyber threat. And I think Democrats would be smart if they stepped into that space. It's such a good point. It's such a weird moment. And it's so weird to have reporters on and say, what do they say to you? And they're like, well, it's, you know, nothing or everything. And to hear Donald Trump in one news cycle say the war is nearly complete and just starting, it's almost so convoluted. It's hard to believe it's really happening. Angela and Paul, thank you so much for this conversation to be continued. Michelle sticks around a little bit longer. When we come back, the governor of Arizona, a state that is becoming ground zero for Donald Trump's efforts to make false claims of voter fraud as a pretext to taking control of the midterm elections, how Democrats are fighting those efforts after short break.

Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co-founder of Angie. When you use Angie for your home projects, you know all your jobs will be done well. Roof repair? Done well. Kitchen sink install? Done well. Deck upgrades? Done well. Electrical upgrade, done well. Angie's been connecting homeowners with skilled pros for nearly 30 years, so we know the difference between done and done well. Angie, the one you trust to find the ones you trust. Find a pro for your project at Angie.com. At DSW, we asked the important questions. Like, what shoes are you going to wear? Whether you're prepping for wedding season, festival season, or just planning the ultimate vacay. The right shoes can make or break an RSVP. So own the moment. You've got big plans and we've got just the shoes at the perfect price, of course. Get ready to get ready with designer shoe warehouse. Head to your DSW store or DSW.com today. And let us surprise you. And now, the next chapter of the Serta counting sheep. Hey, Uncle Number One, why aren't we counted anymore? Let me tell you a story. Long ago, Sert invented the perfect sleeper mattress. Oh, no. Oh, yes. It says the all-new Serta Perfect Sleeper with the Q4 support system has four and one perfectly interlinked coils that help relieve aches and back pain for perfect sleep night after night. We'll never get counted again. Uh, nope. Serta, we make the world's best mattress. As the Republican Party's midterm chances look increasingly dim, with Donald Trump abandoning every single campaign pledge that helped propel him to the White House, Trump has turned to lies about the integrity of America's elections in order to bolster his party's chances in a bizarre sort of bank shot. The Associated Press is reporting that at a Republican retreat earlier this week, as members of Donald Trump's own political party begged him. To focus on the economy and pocketbook issues, Donald Trump begged them to pass restrictive voting legislation instead, based on his lie that he didn't actually lose the 2020 presidential election to Joe Biden. Donald Trump calling for legislation to ban mail-in ballots saying this, quote, it'll guarantee the midterms if you don't get it big trouble, end quote, whatever that means. The Trump administration has also weaponized the federal government. including the national security agencies, to go after some of the states he views as most responsible for his electoral defeat in 2020. ABC News is reporting that a branch of the Department of Homeland Security, known as Homeland Security Investigations, which is typically tasked with investigating drug cartels and human trafficking networks, has been diverted instead to investigate the 2020 election in Arizona.

In response, Arizona officials are rushing to protect sensitive data, warning counties not to hand over full unredacted voter files to the federal government. Vote beat writes this, quote, Attorney General Chris Mays and Secretary of State Adrian Fontes wrote in a joint letter to county recorders that disclosure of such materials to the U.S. Department of Justice would, quote, violate both federal and state law. They urge the recorders who control voter registration data to, quote, fulfill your oath by declining any such illegal demands. Mays and Fontes stopped short of promising litigation against anyone who gave voter information to the federal agencies, though they hinted at it. Quote, our offices are committed to upholding the sanctity of Arizona's elections and democratic process the letter read. We will pursue to the fullest extent of the law, all possible remedies to ensure the integrity of Arizona's elections. and the privacy rights of our citizens. I want to bring in Arizona's governor, Governor Katie Hobbs. Governor, thank you for being here. Thanks for having me. How weird and surreal is it? to be protecting an election result when literally all of Donald Trump's political allies were in office at every level, not that that should matter, but it is a fact. And his close political allies came in and audited the election. I mean, he had political allies in the state legislature. What is this reach into Arizona's elections really about in your view? Well, I feel like I'm having deja vu. We're seeing the same playbook that we saw in 2020 where leading into the election, the president tried to sow doubt and undermine voters' confidence in the systems. And then, you know, obviously we saw play out Arizona becoming ground zero for these election integrity conspiracies. These election results were litigated multiple times. They were investigated, reviewed, audited, if you can call it an audit, so many times, only to find out that the election results were actually the election results and Donald Trump actually lost. I was Secretary of State then. I stood up to defend the will of the voters over and over again. We're back in that place. We have to do that again, unfortunately. And you mentioned, you know, all of the issues that are facing Americans, people wanting the president to focus on the economy. And instead, we're focusing on this election that happened five and a half years ago. And, you know, I think what's really concerning to me, I'm in a race for reelection right now. And my very likely opponent is... not just an election denier, but one of Donald Trump's chief election deniers. He's in Congress. He helped to organize January 6th. He sought a pardon for his role in that. He has defied congressional subpoenas. And he said that on day one, he will get to work overhauling our election system. That doesn't need overhauling.

just to continue to gain Donald Trump's favor. And that is alarming. It means that this election is not just important for Arizona. It's important for the country. And I'm going to continue to stand up for democracy. I hope folks will join me in that to go to Katie hubs.org to find out how to do that. But why are we back here? Why are we doing this again? If the president would just focus on the issues that matter to Americans, he wouldn't have to cheat at elections to win. It's interesting. I mean, Bill Barr, his hand-picked Attorney General, Liz Cheney, who supported him until the insurrection on January 6th. I mean, all sorts of prominent nationally recognizable Republicans have attested to the fact that the election conspiracies are, you know, Bill Barr called them BS. What is it about Donald Trump's lies that has a grip on his supporters and how tight is that grip in Arizona? Well, you know, I was up against an election denier in 2022. I beat her then. And I'm confident I'll do it again this time around. But quite frankly, Arizonans are tired of these election conspiracies being played out in our state. We saw the aftermath of 2020 drag out well into 2021 with the cyber ninjas and their fake audit. only to find the results were the same as they actually were. And that wasn't the only review. There's been multiple reviews. And our elections are secure. We've had vote by mail here for decades. It was ushered in by a bipartisan legislature led by Republicans. 85% of our voters utilize it. And it's been incredibly successful. and secure. And I'm going to continue to defend that by vetoing legislation that aims to curtail that and ensure that eligible voters in Arizona are able to participate in our elections. Governor Katie Hobbs, thank you so much for your time today. Unfortunately for you, I think this conversation will continue over the coming months. We appreciate you being here. Thank you. Thank you. When we come back, we'll bring Michelle back into the conversation. And our friend and colleague von Hilliard will join us as well on what former President Barack Obama is doing today to help protect democracy. All that on the other side of a short break. Don't go anywhere.

Virginia, we are counting on you. Republicans want to steal enough seats in Congress to raid the next election and wield unchecked power for two more years. But you can stop them by voting yes by April 21st. Help put our elections back on a level playing field and let voters decide, not politicians. This is the responsible thing to do. Help us chart a better path forward, Virginia. Vote yes by April 21st. Joining our conversation, senior White House reporter Von Hillier. Michelle is still here. I mean, Von, Donald Trump is making everything President Obama says there. so urgent. I mean, Donald Trump's saying the midterm strategy is to pass the SAVE Act, Donald Trump saying things about elections not needing to happen is only bolstering the urgency of not just the Virginia effort, which is what President Obama is talking about there, but California's Prop 50, which I think President Obama also did a message in support of. Is there anyone, like, is there any cognizance that they're making the messaging against their efforts easier to convey and convince the public? I think it's a good question, Nicole, here. And I think that to each of those individuals, you name point, is that for five and a half years now, we have seen Donald Trump and his cadre of allies effectively laid down different variables of accusations, whether it be, you know, in Arizona giving sharpies to voters, knowing that they were going to vote Republicans so that they wouldn't count when they were scanned, to claims of dead people voting, to claims of printing machines, breaking for the purpose of hurting Republicans. claims that they have made are so endless here. Undoubtedly, we are going to see other efforts here over the course of the next months ahead. And I think that that is really where you see, I think, the concern not just of Democrats, but also one-time Republicans who have the integrity of the democracy in mind because they have seen other Republicans. And if you use Arizona example, people like Mark Bernovich, who is the Attorney General, who did this vast investigation in 2022. into the election denialism claims. He issued a report in 2022, despite being an ally of Donald Trump's, and he couldn't prove vast fraud. And then you also see the likes of people like Rusty Bowers and different Maricopa County Board of Supervisors, Republicans who are no longer in office to stand in the way here. And so that pressure is going to exist on a great number of Democrats, but a lot of those one-time Republicans that stood in the way in 2020, 2022, 2024, they're not around in 2026. Michelle, I might be wrong and I might be projecting what I want to be true onto this, but President Obama seems like if we were having just regular old Democrat versus Republican policy debates, he might not be as engaged. But I think he both cut an ad for California's Prop 50 and maybe did a call with organizers and where democracy has been the question, he seems a little more willing to engage and lend his voice to the fight.

Well, he's done that in several elections, particularly where democracy is, you know, on the line. And that's something that's important to him, and he will continue to use his voice. I mean, on the issue of Maricopa County, I just want to, you know, remind people of the numbers. Joe Biden carried Maricopa County by 45,000 votes and carried the state of Arizona by 10,500 votes. So. It's not, you know, it's not necessarily close. And this is a six-year-old story about a loss that has been examined and reliticated and the numbers have not moved. And so there are even people, to JD Vance point, there are even people within the Republican Party that are advising Donald Trump that with everything going on, the war, the economy, oil prices, the upcoming election instead of the election in 2020, that he probably should be focusing on once upon a time called now. Let that be the last word. Michelle Norris, thank you for spending the hour with me, Von Hilliard. Thank you so much for your reporting from the White House today. It's great to see both of you. When we come back after a very short break, we'll give you our last words.

My guest in this week's episode of The Best People is comedian, actor, documentary movie producer TIG Nataro. She spoke to me about everything, about the movie she's made, but also about her close friend, acclaimed poet, Andrea Gibson, who died last year from stage four ovarian cancer. Tig and I talked about her Oscar-nominated documentary. Come See Me in the Good Light. It chronicles the final years of Gibson's life. Take a listen to what she told me about her friend, Andrea. You know what it is, is like, everybody knows Andrea is a phenomenal poet. But. To me, Andrea is also just a phenomenal laugh hang. And seeing how hard and deep Andrea is laughing in that scene. Like, it is. And I love the lines on Andrea's face. And when they smile and laugh and those lines get lifted up, I'm like, I can feel. that Andrea is still here somehow. And I think that scene just really, really captures who Andrea Gibson is, because I always say, Andrea, everything was so precious to Andrea, but also, meanwhile, nothing was too precious. And you could have the deepest conversation, and then you could laugh so inappropriate with this person. And that's what that scene is to me, is the depth and the silliness that was Andrea Gibson. Come See Me in the Good Light is available now. Please watch it ahead of the Oscars. It's a beautiful movie, and it was a beautiful conversation. To hear the rest of it, just scan the QR code on your screen or download wherever you get your podcast. Let me know what you think on Instagram or Blue Sky. One more break. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes today. We are grateful. Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co-founder of Angie. From roof repair to emergency plumbing and more. When you use Angie for your home projects, you know all your jobs will be done well. Angie, the one you trust to find the ones you trust. Find a pro for your project at Angie.com.