"After months of radio silence from the Department of Justice"

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Hi there, everyone. It's 4 o'clock in the East after months of radio silence from the Department of Justice amid their mishandling at the release of the Epstein files. Survivors of Jeffrey Epstein's abuse are finally, finally, getting their opportunity to meet with Acting Attorney General Todd Blanche, and it's happening later this hour. The meeting comes after this powerful testimony from Epstein Survivor and friend of this program, Danny Bensky. It comes on the second day of Todd Blanche's confirmation hearings. Watch. We may look like grown adults when you see us now, but we were children. Young girls at the time of our abuse, these are the photos of when our innocence, dreams, and lives were stolen. Please take these faces in as you think of us as your own family, daughters, nieces, sisters. Now look at our faces and remember the women and families of who the DOJ re-victimized. Todd Blanche has been at the helm of the release of nude images of survivors, the outing of Jane Does. and the exposure of more than 100 victims identifying information and documents describing horrific acts of abuse, including my own. Instead of treating this release as its own violation and holding the man who led it accountable, you have a decision on whether you place him in the highest law enforcement position in this country.

Now, this meeting that Danny and other survivors are having with Todd Blanche is only coming because Republican Thom Tillis made it a condition for arriving at yes to confirm Todd Blanche. It's not like Todd Blanche woke up and said, maybe I should listen to the survivors of abuse. No, this is to get a vote, but it is happening. But important to note that Todd Blanche easily could have met with survivors months ago, or years ago at this point, two years ago when he took the job when they requested to meet with him. Another flashpoint at Todd Blanche's confirmation hearing today was testimony about the damage that Todd Blanche has already done to the Department of Justice because of the purge of thousands of career employees that he is responsible for and that he's even publicly bragged about. Democrats on the Senate Judiciary Committee sought to highlight how these firings should be disqualifying for anyone seeking to leave the department. They called on former DOJ pardon attorney Liz Oyer, someone we turned to. to understand what's happening inside the department. Democrats today wanted her to testify about why she says she was fired by Todd Blanche and explain the lengths he and his office went to to keep her quiet about it. Watch. Two days after Mr. Todd Blanche was confirmed as Deputy Attorney General, he fired me from my position as the department's career pardon attorney. I declined to rubber stamp a political favor for a friend of the president, and it cost me my job. Mr. Todd Blanche's office had asked me to recommend restoring the gun ownership rights of a convicted domestic abuser. I raised concerns about public safety, but Mr. Todd Blanche's staff pressured me to go along anyway. I did not. But because this particular domestic abuser had a personal relationship with the president, Mr. Todd Blanche's staff asked me to set aside my concerns. When I wouldn't, Mr. Todd Blanche fired me within hours. He then took extraordinary measures to silence me. He sent U.S. Marshals to my home in an effort to prevent me from speaking with members of Congress. Seems like a pretty... clear and obvious sequence of events, decline to do a favor for Donald Trump's friend, lose your job at the hand of Todd Blanche. But in Todd Blanche's confirmation hearing yesterday, he tried to assert that Liz Sawyer is firing in nothing to do with her declining his request to restore gun rights to Donald Trump's friend, the actor Mel Gibson, and said that he, in fact, tried to give her heads up that U.S. Marshals were heading to her house. Here's Liz Oyer rebuking those claims from Todd Blanche about her firing and warning the Senate and the public that putting Todd Blanche in charge of the Department of Justice is a threat to the country. I was shocked to hear Mr. Todd Blanche's testimony about this yesterday. What he said about by firing is provably false. His claim that it had nothing to do with the concerns I raised is contradicted by documents and evidence.

His claim that he tried to call me before sending marshals to my home is flat out false. His claim that it is normal for DOJ to used armed law enforcement officers to deliver mail to the homes of its former employees is preposterous. The casual lies that Mr. Todd Blanche tells, even while sitting in this chair, testifying to this committee, are emblematic of a much larger problem. To the American public, it looks like Mr. Todd Blanche is running DOJ as Donald Trump's personal law firm. Americans across the political spectrum rely on DOJ to keep us safe and free. Mr. Todd Blanche has shown that he is willing to put all of that at risk to serve a political agenda. I beg the members of this committee to think about what this is costing our country. Please do not degrade our justice system further by promoting Mr. Todd Blanche. The destruction Todd Blanche has already wrought at the Department of Justice, which he's seeking to lead is where we start today. Former Department of Justice partner attorney Liz Sawyer joins us. She is now the host of the podcast. Is This Really Legal? And with me for the hour, senior political analyst, host of the runaway country podcast, author of the subsect, How the Hell with Alex Wagner. Alex Wagner joins us. Liz, your testimony was extraordinary and courageous. Just take me through the experience. I was really nervous to go up there and testify, Nicole, because I don't know what the Justice Department is capable of under Todd Blanche's leadership. They've put me through the ringer once in connection with my firing. When I spoke out about my firing, they sent armed law enforcement officers to my home. Mr. Todd Blanche has demonstrated that he has a very casual relationship with the truth. He lies when convenient to get what he wants. And so I have this fear of. what shoe might drop next, what he might try to do to me next. It seems like he coordinated with some of the Republican members of the panel to try to attack my credibility in the hearing. And that was really the focus of all the questions I got today, which was surprising. I didn't get any questions from the Republican members of the committee about. Mr. Todd Blanche, I got a lot of questions about myself in an effort, I think, to suggest that I'm not a credible witness because they really don't have any response on the facts. They don't have any way to dispute any of the things that I testified about. So, you know, Mr. Todd Blanche, I think, just proved himself in the hearing to be somebody that he really desperately wants this job and he will say what is necessary to get it. And I felt like it was my duty to go up there on the hill today and share my own experience and tell the truth. I felt like that was my duty to my fellow citizens, to the many people in this country who care about the Justice Department and who care about our future. And, you know, it wasn't a pleasant experience. It was very stressful. I'm very tired, but I'm glad I did it. I felt like it was the right thing to do.

Are you more afraid now than before you testified against Todd Blanche? Yes. He's, you know, at this point, one of the most powerful people in the country, and he stands to get potentially even more powerful if he's confirmed. And I'm well aware that I've sort of pitted myself against as an opponent of... this incredibly powerful man who has proven that he is vindictive and lies. And, you know, I just don't know what he's capable of, and it is genuinely very scary. But I'm more scared of what his leadership will do to our justice system. We all rely on a justice system that is fair and impartial to protect our civil rights, to keep us safe. And Mr. Todd Blanche is a real threat to that. So the risk of testifying against him, in my mind, you know, it was a no-brainer. It was worth taking. Liz, do you ever wonder how you ended up fighting this fight, not alone, but without some of the former leaders of the Department of Justice, people like Merrick Garland or Lisa Monica or leaders of the FBI, Christopher Ray, under whom all of you served and worked and who, even if they couldn't keep Todd Blanche from harassing you or investigating you, they could testify to the character of the workforce of the men and women of the Department of Justice? Yeah, I think it's sort of a mixed bag because there is a segment of our country that associates Merrick Garland and other leaders of the Justice Department under Biden with Biden's leadership. And there are people who are unhappy with Biden's leadership. And my goal in speaking out, I was not a political appointee. I wasn't appointed by President Biden. I didn't work for him. Didn't work for any president. I work for the American people. And I was non-political. speaking out. And I think the goal that other non-political Justice Department employees have is to really try to amplify. that the Justice Department is not a political place. Almost all of its work is non-political. It benefits everyone regardless of your partisan political affiliation. And I don't know that it would be helpful to have people like Merrick Garland sort of leading the conversation on that. I don't have, you know, the same name recognition and platform as someone like that. But I feel like my voice has a certain credibility because I'm nonpartisan. I do. hope that more nonpartisan career employees of the Justice Department will join this conversation to really try to demonstrate to the American people that DOJ is not meant to be political. Its work matters to all of us, regardless of partisan politics, and we cannot have someone like Todd Blanche in charge of the powers of the Justice Department.

Alex, let me bring you in on this letter submitted last week and signed by 1,200 former Department of Justice employees like Liz. It says this, quote, under Todd Blanche's leadership, approximately 16,000 employees have left. and departures are not slowing down. The consequences of Todd Blanche's attacks on DOJ's apolitical workforce radiate beyond the halls of Maine justice. They affect the entire country. They've meant that much of the department's vital work is not being done or is not being done as well, leaving communities less safe, Americans' rights less protected, and our national security more vulnerable. Your thoughts on where we are today. I think there is a special place in hell for the members of the so-called Yolo caucus. That would be in this case on the Judiciary Committee, Thom Tillis and Bill Cassidy, who vote for Todd Blanche's confirmation. They are retiring. They have been debased and humiliated by Donald Trump. There is no reason for them to confirm Todd Blanche. The committee needs their votes in order for his nomination to pass through to a full vote in the Senate. And they have every reason to believe that he is destroying not just the Justice Department, but the idea that this is a country that follows the dictates of the rule of law. I mean, he is a very, very, very bad actor. And it is, you know, I have so much admiration for Liz and her courage and her ability to articulate the peril. And it's not right that someone should have to take those risks. And then at the same time, I just want to wrap my arms around everybody who's still left at that DOJ who has a spine and who has a moral compass pointing north and say, take care of yourselves and thank you. I mean, when you hear about 16,000 people leaving, who is left? The one thing that was, I think, most appalling to me and surprising in this Todd Blanche confirmation debacle is the way in which he was fully transparent about his belief that the Department of Justice is the president's private law firm. He is a firm believer in the unitary executive theory that dictates any executive branch agency is there for the president's personal use. And Todd Blanche intends on carrying out whatever the president orders him to do. And he was completely transparent about that. That to me is so dangerous and suggests that, you know, justice as we know it is about to take a turn into territory we've never seen before. Yeah, I mean, Alex, to your point, what Republicans will be confirming if and when they vote for Todd Blanche is a standard that they would never apply to any Democrat ever. Someone who goes to CPAC and in an interview with Matt Schlett brags about, quote, canning.

thousands of career, apolitical public servants at the Department of Justice and the FBI, using the word canning them. Someone who says, we're, quote, lucky that Donald Trump is directing prosecutions, investigations, and activity at the Department of Justice. Someone who has been rebuked by judges for his conduct in the Kilmar-Abrego-Garcia case as, quote, reverse engineering. criminality to fit a person they had targeted. Someone who federal judges, including ones appointed by Donald Trump, has rebuked over and over and over and over again. So the standard of Republicans will be ushering in is one that would never in a million years apply to anyone ever nominated by a Democrat. This isn't the end of a fight. It's the start of one. Lioness, the critically acclaimed original series from Taylor Sheridan, returns August 2nd only on Paramount Plus. In the new season, hidden networks, foreign operatives, and personal betrayals collide while Joe walks the line between duty and family. Don't miss Lioness. Starring Zoe Saldana, Michael Kelly, with Morgan Freeman and Nicole Kidman, streaming August 2nd only on Paramount Plus. Watch Disclosure Day at Home Now with exclusive bonus features. If you found out we weren't alone, if someone showed you, proved it to you? Would that frighten you? Well, now the truth belongs to 7 billion people in an original event film directed by Steven Spielberg from a screenplay by David Kep starring Emily Blunt, Josh O'Connor, Colin Firth, Eve Hewson, and Coleman Domingo. Find Disclosure Day on major digital platforms now with no subscription required, also in theaters. Nothing beats tradition, like weekly game nights at Mom's House, and Tostitos. Crafted with Maza made the traditional way, starting with whole corn kernels, with flavors worth gathering around, like a hint of lime and Mexican street corn, and no artificial colors, flavors, or preservatives. That's the Tostitos way. Bring Tostitos to your next game night, and you'll be winning either way. Tostitos, Tradition Matters. It's like they're looking for plausible deniability and just... I mean, I truly don't understand the calculation. I guess it's profit. I guess the assumption is they want to have, you know, lucrative careers in their post-Senate days, and they need to stay in the good graces of the party. And the way that they do that is to ruffle just enough feathers that it appears like they're independent and still care about the direction of the country. But in reality, on both the slush fund and Epstein survivors, both of which are issues that Thom Tillis and Bill Cassidy have expressed reservations about, I mean, these meetings that they're having today, as you point out, Nicole, with Epstein survivors.

could have been happening over the course of the last year. It is abundantly clear that Todd Blanche, architect of Ghislaine Maxwell's sweetheart deal, doesn't care about Epstein survivors. Likewise, the $1.8 billion anti-weaponization fund, what a joke that is, you know, even if that, he effectively admitted yesterday that it remains in place. And even if he signed paperwork saying that it didn't, which he won't, there exists the federal tort claims act. which 600 convicted January 6 rioters are using to seek reparations funded by the American taxpayer. I mean, Todd Blanche is on the side of abusers and rioters. It is abundantly clear. And Thom Tillis and Bill Cassidina know it. Yeah, they all seem to know it. All right, no one's going anywhere. There's a lot more that happened today, a lot more to tell you about, a lot more to cover with Liz and Alex. Also ahead for us, how okay is the Trump White House with what Alex just described, this out in the open corruption? Wow. We have an answer today. They are so okay without the open corruption that even the White House teleprompter operator is in on the game and now under investigation for it. We'll bring you the latest reporting on that ahead. And later in the show, he's said it before and he's laying the groundwork to say it again. Any election that Donald Trump has not won or does not win in the future, regardless of who... Is the president at the time has been stolen from him? By whom is my big question. Trump's election playbook is so predictable. And of course, he's turning to it again. We'll get to all that reporting and much more when Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere. Senator, where are you on Todd Ward and she's nomination right now? I am still considering it. Are you still undecided? Do you still have some concerns? Well, I don't have to make a decision until we vote, so that's... Are you still concerned about the anti-ovinization fund and whether it's truly dead? Yep. So you're right now undecided on his nomination? Yeah, I like it. I've said that several times.

It's John Cornyn. Trump, of course, backed Ken Paxton, essentially running him out of the U.S. Senate after he voted with Donald Trump 90-something percent of the time. Liz, what's interesting to me is that I haven't done Republican comms in a very long time, but what I would recommend is that if they need to hide from Trump, they hide behind the judge who described the settlement as illegal. because these guys pretend to be pro-judge, at least the ones that Trump and other Republicans appointed. And my understanding of the status of the slush fund, whose funds could be distributed to violent insurrectionists who beat cops, is that a judge has deemed it illegal. Yeah, a judge in Florida found that it was a collusive settlement. Essentially, Trump was settling with himself, which you are not allowed to do by law. She did not go so far as to invalidate the settlement funds. So the legal status of it is a little bit unclear. But the major finding that she made that that really stands out to me is that Todd Blanche reached his duty to zealously represent the interests of the United States simply by signing. that agreement. That is the basic job of the Attorney General to zealously represent the interests of the United States. And the fact that this judge found that he breached that duty already indicates that he is not fit to be the attorney general. The senators who questioned him put a lot of focus on whether he is committing to the settlement fund being dead. I think the real question is what kind of person would agree to that in the first place? His judgment and his character and where his loyalties lie, it all points toward him being Donald Trump's personal lawyer. He was once. He still is. And that is not the type of... person that we need in this role, regardless of what he is saying now about whether the fund is or isn't debt. You know, Alex, we've covered Trump for so long and the Steve Bannon mantra of sort of flooding the zone with crap. has proven so effective in Todd Blanche's case. Because you've got all of these judges, again, appointed by Democratic and Republican presidents who have rebuked Todd Blanche specifically and his conduct specifically. He's also... lost vindictive prosecution efforts. I mean, he's been found to have waged vindictive prosecutions against Donald Trump's enemies. He's been found to have reverse engineer criminality about Kilmar Obraco Garcia. He's been found who violated the Transparency Act that would dictate the full release.

of the Epstein material and he's been found to have engaged in a collusive settlement to shield Donald Trump from immunity. If there was one, I think the chances of his nomination being derailed might be better than the fact that there's foreign counting. Yeah, it's also bad that it blends into a crap blender, a crap smoothie, if you will, Nicole, that we all have to drink every day. I'm sorry to put that visual in everyone's mind, but the reality is that there's so much bad that it ultimately, I think, to some degree, neutralizes it, at least in the eyes of the Republican senators who are taking a vote on this. The Department of Justice under Todd Blanche has become and will only continue to be an embarrassment. He has, you know, on any one of those topics, what stuns me, what leaves me agog is he has an explanation for it and it always ends with Donald Trump. It's his... choice. He is the president. I serve it his pleasure, and I will do what he says, and he has the backing, if not of district court judges of the Supreme Court. And their immunity decision, I think this is, we look at the after effects of this. This is one. Todd Blanche. thinks that because the president is ordering him to do this, it can't be criminal, and therefore he's going to go do it. And, you know, I think we live in a moment where one of the only bulwarks against the worst of Trump and Todd Blanche's impulses are these judges. But the fact of the matter is the highest court in the land is very much in cahoots with Trump and very much agrees that the executive has all power is vested in the executive. And so it makes curbing any of these terrible decisions and these unlawful actions. It's really difficult. It sure looks a lot like fascism, you know? If you ask what fascism looks like, maybe roving death squads that are out there killing people who are unarmed fathers and brothers and uncles, hunting down Latino men. And then when the attorney general is asked about it, basically is like, I defer to ICE, that's not the America that we bargained for. I mean, you know, re-victimizing children who were sexually abused by a notorious predator. That's not something we ask of the Department of Justice or the Attorney General. And yet these are all things that Todd Blanche in the course of his confirmation hearing has made peace with. It is staggering. Liz, what in your view happens next? Is it your sense that any Republicans have enough concerns to thwart his nomination confirmation? There were very few Republicans in the room when I was there and the day that Mr. Todd Blanche testified that expressed any serious concerns about his leadership of the department. And, you know, it's really surprising to me because his leadership should alarm people on both sides of the aisle. It is not appropriate to have an attorney general who puts the president's interests above the interests of the American people, which Mr. Todd Blanche.

Donald Trump's self-dealing and grifting and self-enrichment has been a hallmark of both his presidencies, but until now it hasn't broken through. But there's evidence today that Donald Trump's unprecedented and brazing corruption is starting to bother voters. A new poll from echelon insights found that nearly one-fifth of all Americans now say political corruption is the country's biggest issue. That's up from just 8% two years ago, with 39% of Americans pointing to, quote, corruption within the Trump administration. It's hard to imagine that that or anything would make Donald Trump care or stop, given the level of grift and corruption that has been operationalized, which Trump is likened to quote, peanuts. Now we're learning just how widespread the culture of corruption really is with allegations that run throughout all corners of Donald Trump's physical White House, right down to it including the person who operates the teleprompter. On that, ABC News reports this, quote, Gabriel Perez, a technical assistant who the president. who has been operating the president's teleprompter since 2016 is in talks with federal regulators to settle allegations. He used his inside knowledge of the president's speeches to win more than $100,000, end quote. According to ABC, sources said CFTC investigators discovered that Perez placed bets on more than a dozen Trump's speeches over a three-month period, including a December primetime address, a January speech at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland. Trump's remarks in March during a Medal of Honor ceremony, and Donald Trump stated the union address in February. Today, the White House said that the teleprompter operator was placed on paid administrative leave. I want to bring him former White House Communications Director, Anthony Scarabucci. He's the founder of Skybridge Capital. He's the author of The Fourth Coming Book, All the Wrong Moves, How Three Catastrophic Decisions Led to the Rise of Trump. It comes out in September. Alex is still here. Anthony, we've wanted to talk to you for so long. Just jump right in on Trump's corruption and the culture he creates. Well, it's a lot bigger. It's more exponential in the second term. And I just think that they were like a spring loading for four years. And they were saying themselves, well, we took a lot of the first term, but we really didn't take as much as we could have. And so if we can never get back there, we've got to start the grift and go full exponential. So I think the problem with what's happening with the teleprompter guy, he probably heard the president say. that he was going to pardon everybody inside of 200 to 250 feet of the White House, as reported in regime change by Jonathan Swan and Maggie Haberman. But he doesn't qualify the poor kid because he doesn't make enough money. He's not influential enough. And his last name isn't Trump. So the kid's obviously in a lot of trouble. And he's going to pay the price while the president's going to go on to make several billion dollars for himself. But I'll end my remarks on this one note. And I'll say this to both of you.

This stuff doesn't last, meaning this will come home to roost for the president and his family, even if he's going to pardon his family members and himself on the way out. This will come back to bite all of them. And I'm surprised they don't understand that because if you really just study history, you see that this stuff never lasts and it always comes back to bite the people that perpetrate it. You know, for someone, Anthony, so obsessed with how he's perceived, to steal from people, to make your base of supporters look like boobs and robs and fools while you pocket $2 billion, which is the most money Trump has ever made. He wasn't given that much from his dad. He didn't make that much as a real estate guy. He didn't make that much in television. He literally stole it from foreign governments seeking favors and from the American taxpayer. It's such a weak look. Why are they also okay with that? Are they just diluted or are they insulated or what do you? How is it operationalized? Hey, everybody, it's Rob Lowe here. If you haven't heard, I have a podcast. That's called Literally with Roblo. And basically, it's conversations I've had that really make you feel like you're pulling up a chair at an intimate dinner between myself and people that I admire, like Aaron Sorkin or Tiffany Haddish, Demi Moore, Chris Pratt, Michael J. Fox. There are new episodes out every Thursday. So subscribe, please, and listen, wherever you get your podcasts. Some things are better when they're kept simple, like simply lemonade made with real lemons and cane sugar, giving you a fresh, all-natural taste that shines through in every sip. It's the kind of drink that turns an everyday moment into something a little more special, bright, refreshing, and crafted for people who appreciate the real thing. Visit the chill juice aisle in your local grocery store today and say yes to Simple. Nothing beats tradition, like weekly game nights at Mom's House and Tostitos. Crafted with Masa made the traditional way, starting with whole corn kernels, with flavors worth gathering around, like a hint of lime and Mexican street corn, and no artificial colors, flavors, or preservatives. That's the Tostitos way. Bring Tostitos to your next game night, and you'll be winning either way. Tostitos, Tradition Matters.

It's such a great question, but he doesn't see it that way at all. He sees it as incredibly smart. And look how smart he is. The other people that held his position, they couldn't do this. Look at how great I am. And while Barack Obama had a seven or eight financial disclosure page, he had a phone book of 927 pages. And oh, by the way, You pointed this out that he thinks it's peanuts compared to what the tech bloc arcs make and et cetera. And he also thinks a lot of the stuff that he's doing is legal. And if you look through the financial disclosure where he was actually breaking the disclosure law, he's paying the $200 requisite fine. So he's laughing his way to the bank. His attitude is... You know, this is what all presidents should have been doing. Look how smart I am. And by the way, when he got our young striker back on the playing field after the red card incident, he turned to all of his staff and said, you know, Kamala Harris could never have done something like this. And again, he is a rules. And by the way, Kamala Harris would have been more principled than would have never done anything like that. But the point I'm making is he's a rules and standards breaker. And he's laughing. And a lot of the stuff, and you can ask your legal analyst, a lot of the stuff are in the gray zone guys. You know, he probably is allowed to do more than you think in terms of what he did. Where does the sort of architecture of the grifting? that's inside the government come from. Like, whose idea is it to get the kids to have defense contracts and to be in cahoots with investors from, I think it's Kazakhstan, and get the Commerce Department? Like, who is the architect of the theft from the American taxpayer? Well, I mean, he's always had a team around him that works on his brand, whether it's Trump Water, Trump Vaca, Trump Stakes, writing bestsellers, all that sort of stuff. He's always had a group of people around him that does this stuff for him. And so the meme coin launch as an example was organized. And he, you know, he shares the quote unquote Vig with those people, whatever that Vig may be. And so. I don't know who their names are, but I know he's always had a group of people. I mean, on the first campaign, the big joke was you've written more best-selling books than you've actually read because, of course, he had a ghostwriter writing those books and publishing them for him. And so this is all part of that. But again... You had four years to rethink the strategy going back in. And remember, you know, there'll be what aboutism by the Trump people and the Trump family. They'll point to where the Bidens have done. They'll point to some insider trading at the Congress. None of it is savory. I'm not saying any of it is, but they've gone full exponential here. And I think it's going to catch up with them, even though they don't think it's going to catch up with them, I believe it will.

Anthony, what do you think about the people around Trump? I feel like even the very short time you were there, you would have had the presence of mind to tell him that building gold is the word gold-covered things while people are struggling to fill up their cars with gas. Isn't a good look? What does it say to you that no one around him can stop him from coating everything in gold from raking in $2 billion in 15 months while people are really struggling with groceries and gas? Sometimes people forget because of my infamous firing after 11 days. I was actually with him for nine months, and there was a lot of straight talk between me and him in terms of things that were going on. And he was a lot more willing to listen prior to becoming president. But, you know, he's moved out. most of the people. And so when I see somebody like Jay Clayton or even Todd, Todd Blanche as an example, and I see what they're doing in terms of the congressional testimony, I feel sad for those guys. But the flip side is those are the last remnants left of non-yesmen. You know, they may be maybe men, but they are also sometimes no men. And whether we like it or not, we're going to need those guys as part of the process. And if Jay Clayton didn't answer the questions yesterday, the way he answered them, he would have gotten removed. His appointment would have been withdrawn or his nomination would have been withdrawn. I think it's important for people to know that. And so this is this unfortunate circumstance around President Trump. And there's few people left. willing to push back on him, which is why you're seeing all this egregious activity. And I'll just say this, you know, the country weirdly would have probably have been better off if he won the last time in 2020 because he still would have had some establishment Republicans around him. The semblance of that check and balance in the White House would have been there. And of course, we wouldn't have had the insurrection. And now the general attack by this man on the integrity of our electoral process. He's likely to give a speech tonight about this. He won't let it go. And he's forcing these guys that know better to have this sort of litmus test before the Congress. So it's sort of very embarrassing for the country. And it's embarrassing for those guys, but they'll likely get approved. And I'm grateful that they'll be approved because they're in the maybe category guys. I know that's a terrible thing to say when we think about principles and who we would like to have in public service. But they're not the typical yes men like a Howard Lutnick or something like that. Well, I want to push back on that. I have to sneak in a break first. I actually think they're more dangerous. The people that know better and do it anyway have already been humiliated, they have nothing to lose. The people who believe that Donald Trump is the only president between Obama, Biden, and Trump on whose watch fraud occurred, they're actually on some wild goose chase for something that doesn't exist. The ones who know better scare me the most. I'll let Alex weigh in on that, and we'll come back to that on the other side. Don't go anywhere.

Is there a problem of voter fraud in this country? I don't think we can say definitively whether there is or is not until we have better processes. We've had hundreds of analyses. We've had the Heritage Foundation study that found 1,650 cases out of 2 billion votes counted. I would love for the American people to have incredible confidence in the integrity of our elections. I would too, and I would appreciate it if this administration would cease undermining that confidence. Alex, these are the guys that I think Anthony, I disagree on. he believes they're better. I think they're worse. I think they're scarier because Jay Clayton, from everything I've read about him, is smart enough to know that when Bill Barr says that the allegations of fraud are bullshit, I think Jay Clayton believes Bill Barr, not Donald Trump and the lunatics who were around him in sort of the fever dreams of the final days of 2020. I may be wrong about Jay Clayton, but I think that's where he would get his information from Bill Barr, not Donald Trump and Rudy Giuliani. To me, someone who's humiliated themselves by not being able to formulate the word W-O-N-1 in testimony for the Senate before senators is more dangerous. Because once you've been humiliated, once you've given up your pride and your ability to be, you know, sort of accepted in normal public society as someone who's brave enough and strong enough and manly enough to tell the truth, there's nothing you wouldn't do. You've already sacrificed so much. Yeah, I mean, I think Pete Hegseth, our Secretary of Men's Grooming and Secretary of Defense, is launching a testosterone program for men who may have low tea. And I would suggest he starts with Jay Clayton and... Todd Blanche first, because clearly they are so be cucked to Donald Trump that they may benefit from some hormone enhancement. I mean, the idea that these guys are going to go out there and defend any of the principles of the Constitution when they debase and be clown themselves in front of an entire room full of sitting senators who are there to find out the truth about what they believe suggests to you that they have, use the phrase manliness, morality, any kind of backbone whatsoever. I mean, I thought Jay Clayton was utterly pathetic. yesterday because it's clear he understands what the reality of the situation is. And yet his desire for power to serve as a stooge to this president, the most corrupt in American history, is so profound that he's literally willing to check that morality at the door. I mean, it's just such a profound embarrassment. And it is exactly those kind of people. When you wonder how a society declines, when you wonder how fascism ascends, it's precisely. from no-nothing, or actually, I shouldn't say no-nothing because they know better, but power-hungry, sick offense, who are willing to do anything in the name of holding on to authority and serving the monstrous ego of the leader that they have, you know, hitched their star to. And that's exactly what's on display. I have no confidence in either one of them, which is a long-winded way of saying, I totally agree with you, Nicole.

Okay, can I ask both of you guys a quick question? Prove me wrong. Prove me wrong, Anthony. Not that I want to prove you wrong. I mean, you're making really valid points. I'm just, you know, would you rather Bill Pulte in the job? I don't think there's a meaningful difference. I don't think that because I don't think there's any, I don't think there's any, what I would say is, I don't think there's any difference. Because if Jay Clayton, who everyone says was normal, Mark Warner said he was a person that seemed rooted in reality. The person, JD Vance, scares me more than Pete Hegseth said. JD Vance called Donald Trump, quote, America's Hitler and then has gone on to do. whatever Trump has asked him to do, the people who contort themselves and humiliate themselves seem to be the people that Trump enjoys continuing to humiliate. So I think someone who's already pervert, like I don't know what Bill Pulte was before he was the housing guy, but I'm guessing he wasn't a stand-up person like it sounds like Jay Clayton might have been. So I'm more afraid of the person who sacrificed his integrity. Okay, I will just say from my personal experience that we are in more danger of society. in a society-wise, with a Bill Pulte than a Jay Clayton. And I would say that he would be, in my opinion, a hockey goalie on some important issues and block some things that somebody like Bill Pulte wouldn't. But I think what's happening here is I'm morally equivocating and you guys are upset about that and you have a right to be upset about that. But unfortunately, in Trump world, you have to deal with the world. the way it is, not the way we would want it to be. None of these people, just by what they're saying with their testimony, it's disqualifying. But I know Trump well enough, and I'll say this to both of you, if Jay Clayton said Joe Biden won the election, fair and square, he would have withdrew his nomination. He was told, I mean, I don't know this for a fact, I'm giving you my opinion, but I believe he was told by the White House. That is a litmus test question. If you answer it in the wrong way, your nomination is going to be withdrawn. And the two of you are saying, well, yeah, well, then his nomination should be withdrawn. And I get that. And that would be better for him and better for his family. But it's better for the country that is Jay Clayton's in the position as opposed to Bill Pulte. You guys disagree. I'm just giving you my opinion because I've been there. And I've seen people like John Kelly, frankly. operate like a hockey goalie and block and defend things that were absolutely crazy from happening and him actually stopping them. Well, I would say that Jay Clayton is no John Kelly, and John Kelly would never have a hard time before the Senate saying that Joe Biden won the 2020 election. And I would take that to the bank. I think you would too. Okay. Well, we're going to end up with more Bill Pulte saying, guys, and that's going to be a problem for us. Well, no one's listening to me.

Nobody in the White House personnel office is calling me and looking for my advice. This is from, you know, you were on the inside, but I do not think that there's a direct line from John Kelly to Jay Clayton. I think one man has honor and stood in the breach and prevented probably horrific things from happening. And based on his conduct yesterday, if he's afraid of failing a litmus test, I mean, that's like, like if the litmus test was you can't say up is up, would he have said that up was down? You've made your point. I'm just telling you the perilous situation that we're in, and I'm telling you that both classes are half-empty, but in the case of a Bill Pulte, there's like one drop of contact lens solution in that class as opposed to some of these guys. So that's just me. But I hear you. Listen, I'm sure that there are people listening that are throwing socks at the TV directly at my face and avoiding the two of yours. I'm just telling you what I dealt with. And I'm telling you where we are as a society right now. And I know Jay a long time, you know, have a personal relationship with him. And I feel bad that he did that. But I know why he did that. You're here because you have inside knowledge. And so at the end of the day, I defer to what you know from being on the inside. I got burned. Nicole, you know, listen, I paid the price. But one thing different than me than guys like Pompeo and these other guys, they know better than to be supporting this guy. At least I admitted my mistakes and supported Joe Biden in 2020, supported and worked on Vice President Harris's debate. prep in 2024, and I've spoken consistently for the last seven years against what Donald Trump is doing to the country. And during the break, I sent you something, which is atrocious. The Trump media organization, Truth Social, is going to sell hedge fund managers millisecond advantages on Trump's tweets so that they can front run other people's trades. I mean, this stuff is just... unbelievable that this is actually, you know, going on with this level of impunity. So I find the whole thing reprehensible, but we got 20 months. That's a pretty long car lease in a lemon of a car that we're going to have to deal with. And it's a long time, guys. This is incredible. This is what you sent me. Trump media to sell, quote, faster millisecond access to Trump's true social post starting August 1st, letting traders, hedge funds and high-frequency trading firms pay for real-time millisecond access to Trump's true social post. That's like the teleprompter guy on steroids. We're going to legalize the teleprompter guy. We're going to give you the information so this way it's out there so that you don't have a teleprompter guy problem. Yeah. Anthony, we can disagree sometimes. We love you and we need you. We need your insights. Look, the feeling is good. I love coming on. I love coming on the show. Alex, thank you for inviting me on your podcast. I appreciate it. You're welcome. Next time we'll figure out what's wrong with the Mets.

Um, Anthony Scarlete routine housewagon. You're going to need a 24 hour news cycle for that. I mean, and we're going to need a couch. My, my most delusional friends are the ones that think that like the after the all-star break things are going to change. I'm with them. I hope springs eternal. All right. I watch every inning to tell you how pathetic I am. So anyway. I do too. I should be watching other things, but I'm still watching every inning too. All right, to be continued, both of you. Thank you so much. On the other side, we'll talk to someone who was on the front lines of protecting the election from Donald Trump's lies last time in 2020. Quick break. We'll be right back with that. Nothing beats tradition, like weekly game nights at Mom's House and Tostitos. Crafted with Masa made the traditional way, starting with whole corn kernels, with flavors worth gathering around, like a hint of lime and Mexican street corn, and no artificial colors, flavors, or preservatives. That's the Tostitos way. Bring Tostitos to your next game night, and you'll be winning either way. Tostitos, Tradition Matters.