"Met with that same dismissive attitude"

This isn't the end of a fight. It's the start of one. Lioness, the critically acclaimed original series from Taylor Sheridan, returns August 2nd only on Paramount Plus. In the new season, hidden networks, foreign operatives, and personal betrayals collide while Joe walks the line between duty and family. Don't Miss Lioness. Starring Zoe Saldana, Michael Kelly, with Morgan Freeman and Nicole Kidman, streaming August 2nd only on Paramount Plus. Watch Disclosure Day at Home Now with exclusive bonus features. If you found out we weren't alone, if someone showed you, proved it to you? Would that frighten you? Well, now the truth belongs to 7 billion people in an original event film directed by Steven Spielberg from a screenplay by David Kep starring Emily Blunt, Josh O'Connor, Colin Firth, Eve Hewson, and Coleman Domingo. Find Disclosure Day on major digital platforms now with no subscription required, also in theaters. Would you say that Mr. Todd Blanche exhibits a rather dismissive attitude toward all of you and the Epstein crimes? One thousand percent, yes. Hi again, everybody. It's now 5 o'clock in the east after months and months of waiting now to meet with the Department of Justice. After its complete mishandling of the release of the Epstein files, survivors of Jeffrey Epstein's abuse finally have the chance to sit down with acting attorney General Todd Blanche yesterday. But in that highly anticipated and long-awaited meeting, the survivors say they were met with the same dismissive attitude that Epstein survivor and friend of this program, Danny Guy Benson, testified to yesterday. at Todd Blanche's confirmation hearing. For Todd Blanche, who's seeking to take on the role of Attorney General, the United States permanently, the meeting was just a check-the-box exercise, a necessary step that he was told he needed to take to gain the vote of a Republican senator named Thom Tillis. Survivors say the meeting was just that. Todd Blanche checking the Thom Tillis box to secure his job promotion, leaving them more hardened in their opposition to him. In a statement provided to MS now, Epstein survivor Annie Farmer says this, quote, after meeting with Todd Blanche, I feel even more confident in urging senators to vote against his confirmation as the United States Attorney General. I found him abrasive, condescending. and intentionally non-committal to survivors, a marked contrast to his public testimony during his confirmation hearing. While quick to point out, the failures of previous administrations, he refused to take accountability for mistakes made under his own leadership. His evasiveness felt like a deliberate attempt to claim the Attorney General's office is powerless in this matter. By passing the buck once again, he's leaving survivors trapped in the same endless loop of searching for answers and receiving none. Other survivors who were in the room for the meeting with Taub Todd Blanche were left with the same impression. With Danny Benski posting this in a statement online, quote, he danced around his wording repeatedly interrupted us and could not commit to anything that would demonstrate good faith or begin to restore trust. He did not adequately account for the release of materials that expose survivors identifying information and images.

What was his demeanor like? I would call it patronizing. It felt very much like the attempt to appear empathetic and it came off as condescending and patronizing. It did not come off as. I am now applying to be the Attorney General of the United States. You are victims of a crime, and I can assure you we would never want harm like this. to happen to anyone and we're on top of it. No, that's not what happened. He very clearly stated that there was nothing to see in the files. And if there was going to be anything investigated, we were going to have to do more legwork. We're going to have to go back to the FBI, share our stories again. And I said, okay, but what about should. What if they're actually in the files? Do we just bring the files and point them out to FBI agents? And he basically said, yes, just tell us what files we should be looking at. Because there are no active investigative investigations going on right now except for New Mexico. What did he say or was he asked to explain his meeting with Ghislaine Maxwell in the context of the new reporting in the New York Times that he was participating in a meeting about public relations, not fact-finding? He did not say that. He did say that the reason he went to go see Ghislaine Maxwell was that supposedly many victims had said that she had not given any testimony. and that she should be able to speak. I don't know who those victims would be, but that was his reasoning for going to see her. Did he offer any explanation for why Mr. Howard Lutnick, who's lied about his interactions with Jeffrey Epstein was still in the cabinet? He did not, and we didn't go into that subject of specific people. We really were taught. We went there. Initially at half an hour, we actually got an hour and a half, and it was an extremely tense and emotional meeting. And we all had so many questions. And even though we came in with our lists, it was hard to feel heard by him. So. We didn't even get through the questions that we wanted to try to get through. You know, one of the things I did ask him, and I think this is extremely important, Nicole and I actually reached out to the New Mexico Attorney General's office because...

I said to him, well, but there is a criminal investigation going on. And as far as we know, your office is not cooperating with them. And both he and his expert in child trafficking and human trafficking said, oh, we're cooperating. So I got a statement from them, if you don't mind if I could read that. Please. The statement from New Mexico's Attorney General's office was, I think our definitions of cooperating are very different. We got 30 documents that were redacted and new stories. That's not the files we're looking for, and they know it. It's been more than 150 days since we've asked for the unredacted Epstein files. We've also asked for their assistance in lifting protective orders, and they said unlikely. What is your sense of whether he had any shame for saying the day before the meeting that he would not meet with all of you? But when Mr. Thom Tillis' vote became contingent on having the meeting, he was there. Did he say, well, I just said that because I didn't want to get tripped up, but I'm actually happy. Like, did he answer for saying he didn't want to meet with you guys 24 hours earlier? No, that's actually a really good word that you brought up, Nicole, remorse. There was no remorse for any of the damage that was done. There was no remorse when we brought up, we've been trying to talk to you for eight months, nine months to tell you there are important files that should be looked at. There are plenty of investigative leads. There was no remorse in, even when Annie said, hey, I know that my sister's report is missing part of the pages. Will you do an investigation? He said, no, there was not going to be any further investigations. And we had to go through proper channels now. We had to go back to the FBI or we could talk to this other specialist. But basically, you wanted us to start all over again. What does it make you feel about victims of child sex trafficking at the hands of powerful men today?

As an advocate, this is one of the things that is extremely frustrating because getting any kind of accountability for any kind of sexual harm is already excruciatingly difficult. And you would think with 6 million files, by the way, he kept correcting us and saying 3 million files, he said there are only 3 million files, not 6 million files. With that volume of evidence, we feel there's... If you can't find an investigative lead in that, then there's a problem with competence. or their decisions being made. And so it's very discouraging because right now, this man wants to be the Attorney General of the United States and he doesn't know what to do with six million files. And how can anyone in this country ever feel safe that their case is going to be prosecuted properly, investigated properly, when all of this is happening with the world watching, Nicole? I mean, what happens when no one's looking? Yeah, and what happens when a group of victims don't find one another? Don't find one another. Right. Right. What was it like amid all of you who have found each other through this process to be in the room sort of before, during, and after? Can you take us through that journey? Yeah, it was interesting. You know, we're all different. We're all our own individual human beings. And some people get chatty and some people need quiet. Like when we're in the lift to get there, you know, it was, can I just say one thing to you about Sky Robbers and Amanda Robbers? What amazing humans they are. Because we all get there. And one of the things that they are so good at is really centering all of us and reminding us of how far we've actually come. And that keeps us so united as a group because it can be very discouraging at times and having their very grounded wisdom among us and fighting alongside and ready to lead is making all the difference in the world for us. So we had a huddle before we went in. And we said, you know, this is good. We are standing in front of the DOJ and we are about to walk into the DOJ. The fact that this man has been evading us for months. And his hand was forced and he had to meet with us. We knew it was likely going to be, there's going to be no winning here. But to get in the door because of public pressure, you know, it's not just on us. It's the American people that are pushing this forward for us. Like nobody would care if the public didn't care. What is your message to Thom Tillis today? Thom Tillis, that was not.

a meeting, and I am going to guess that you care about this issue very much. I'm going to guess that that's why when you sat across from Danny Benski and listened to her testimony, you knew that it was time to demand that meeting for us. And that was, as Danny said, a moment of humanity in the room. So I can only imagine that you are just as disappointed as we are. Because I'm sure you asked for that meeting because you want facts too. So please do not confirm that man to be attorney general of this country until we actually get to a place that is genuinely productive. What is your hope if you could all sort of take over the department for a day or if someone. benevolent and interested in transparency could take it over. What would they, what should they do? What would they do? They should unredact all of those files. There are plenty of leads to investigate. Right now, what should be happening at the Department of Justice is there should be a team of prosecutors combing through those files. Do you know what else we learned? We learned that when they did the review for the redactions, even though there were lawyers, even though there was 800 people, no one. was looking at the files for leads. They were purely looking at them for redactions. That sounds crazy to me, absolutely absurd, that if you're sitting there and you're reading through those files, that you weren't looking for leads and you were attorneys working for the Department of Justice. That's crazy. Having run on this in part, and it's also suggested they were looking for mentions of Donald Trump's name. Yes. Did that come up at all in your meeting with Todd Blanche? Not this meeting. Maybe the next one. Jess, I know that... Talking about it is double edge for you and that for all of you guys, it takes a lot to share this. And I want to thank you for spending this much time with us after a meeting like this and for continuing to keep us connected with the efforts of you and your survivor sisters for transparency. We appreciate you so much. Thank you. Thank you so much. I want to bring Amanda Mali into the conversation. I'm going to sneak in a break before I do that. Also ahead for us, wild pictures of a really, really, really low, like Tom Cruise, without all the Tom Cruiseness of it, flyover of the Navy's Blue Angels. It sent tents and umbrellas and beach chairs in sand violently airborne. People can get killed when those things become projectiles.

but they went flying. And instead of apologizing for all that chaos for something that could have ended in absolute disaster, there's something very different coming out of Pete Hegseth. We'll bring you that story later in the hour as well. Deadland White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere. Watch Disclosure Day at Home Now with exclusive bonus features. If you found out we weren't alone, if someone showed you, proved it to you? Would that frighten you? Well, now the truth belongs to 7 billion people in an original event film directed by Steven Spielberg from a screenplay by David Kep starring Emily Blunt, Josh O'Connor, Colin Firth, Eve Hewson, and Coleman Domingo. Find Disclosure Day on major digital platforms now with no subscription required, also in theaters. Omniwatch protects way more than just your passwords and logins. We protect what matters most, you, your family, and the life you live online. From scam alerts to dark web monitoring, Omniwatch has you covered around the clock. Real experts are just a call away, and with plans up to $4 million in identity theft insurance, you get total peace of mind. So whether you're Garden Gal 54 or Dad Bod 23, Omniwatch helps you browse, shop, and connect with confidence. Go to Omniwatch.com to get protected today. The days are longer, the calendar is filling up. And I want to feel as good as this beautiful summer weather. That's why I've been loving grooms. It's one daily pack of gummies that covers my greens, vitamins, minerals, and even has 6 grams of prebiotic fiber. So I don't need to juggle a complicated wellness routine on top of everything else. They taste amazing. They're easy to toss my bag on the go. vegan, gluten-free, and HSAFSA eligible for reimbursement. Save up to 52% off with code podcast at grooms.co. That's code podcast at g-r-un-s.com. How many pages of the so-called Epstein files has the department released? Nearly three million. How many more pages are there? That are responsive. We're not aware of any. How about that in the department's opinion are not responsive? Well, from what we collected, about $3 million that were just nothing to do with Jeffrey Epstein or the case at all. Okay. Why don't you just release everything? Just let it rip. It's a good question. Never thought I'd say that about a suggestion from Senator Robert F. Kennedy Jr.. But I wonder, Amanda. Why continue to take on the political baggage of holding back? What is your theory? I mean, it appears to me that Todd Blanche thinks that he can get away with this form of kind of fake transparency that Pam Bondi attempted to pull off when she promised, you know, all the activists were delivering the X-Files and they were smart enough to figure out there was no there as is everybody else can figure out here. Because, you know, as the Epstein victims have been pointing out, you are not looking at the stories we told and doing any kind of follow-up to figure out.

how this went on for so long, why it was covered up, and who else may have been involved. I mean, it is stunning that the person who wants to be Attorney General found a way to spend nine hours with Ghislaine Maxwell and had to wait until a senator held his vote hostage for confirmation to get those victims nine minutes with the guy who is supposedly leading an investigation. But he is not. He is the point person on the cover up and running the political damage program. to help Donald Trump. Like, we all can see that. Thom Tillis set up a very basic test. Can you show these victims, like, basic respect, hear them out, sort of demonstrate that maybe you have a shred of political independence from Trump, and they're all coming out of that meeting and saying, no. He failed that test, Thom Tillis. And also, by the way, you had a letter for more than a thousand. members, people who worked for the Department of Justice saying that Todd Blanche is not going to be politically independent at all from the president. So I don't know how much more evidence Thom Tillis needs. He's failed the test that he has set out for the vote. So I don't know how he gets to yes. But man, I just, you have to commend the victims for going this far. I mean, the way they have been smeared and attacked and harassed. throughout this process and to get that meeting. But then also they only got that meeting because Tom Till said they should get it shows, you know, what a perilous situation that this remains to be. You know, Molly, we just had some polling up of Trump's approval on the economy. It's in the low 30s. His approval on his handling of the Epstein files is half that. So if the economy is a flashing red political light, the handling of the Epstein files brings about more intense feelings inside the MAGA coalition and his approval rating is lower. And if in the UK, you know, princes have lost their crowns. If at Goldman Sachs, lawyers have lost their jobs, why in America does the guy who handles the botch release of the files get promoted from acting AG and deputy AG to AG unless Trump is in on it with him? Well, that I don't, that I can't speak to. But there's certainly they behave in a way that is so suspicious. And I want to, I want to pull back and talk about New Mexico for a minute, which Jess Michaels was talking about, which is right now, at this moment, the attorney general from New Mexico, Raul Torres, has been trying to get the DOJ to give him the unredacted files. And he said, he told. I mean, this reporting from Axios, he told Axios that the DOJ was hindering and withholding unredacted Epstein files. So like this is happening to the victims, but it's also happening to the state of New Mexico. And I think it's really important to see her that not only is this DOJ not interested in helping the victims, but they're not interested in helping other states solve what is obviously the largest sex trafficking. or probably case, hopefully, in American history. And we are, and you just see a total disinterest in helping not either the victims or the states. And that to me is beyond problematic. The other thing I just want to say quickly is that you have two members, two Republican senators, right? Thom Tillis and John Cornyn, who could.

really sink this nomination. And they have more power at this moment than they probably will in the rest of their careers. So they could get more justice or some sort of justice. They could get these unredacted files if they pushed it. And so I do think they have more power. And again, they're not acting like that. And Thom Tillis is saying he wants to get to yes. But they really do have more power than they think. Amanda, on the sort of miracle that is this one shining bright spot of bipartisan efforts for justice for the victims, the Thomas Massie role in the Oversight Committee. He's another person who paid with his job in the same way Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger paid with their jobs for participating in the January 6th Select Committee investigation. Your thoughts on how Washington still doesn't reflect not just the public, but the MAGA voter. Yeah. Well, I mean, it is interesting, stunning how any Republicans who have tried to exercise any kind of accountability oversight over the president have to get targets and essentially lost their careers over it. I mean, that is what has happened. And maybe Tom Till's and John Cornyn will do something. I think Monument makes a great point. I, you know, I... I'm always disappointed to see Republicans capitulate, but they are making demands, and Todd Blanche is not meeting the standard. So again, I don't know how Thom Tillis actually gets to yes on this. I'm not saying it's not possible. But, you know, it is important. And then, you know, if you game this out, people will say, well, he could just stay as acting attorney general. Well, maybe, but it would be an important symbol for the Senate not to confirm. this person, not only because of this, but also because he was the guy that wrote the memo that authorized the slush fund for the January 6th rioters and wanted to give Donald Trump a free pass on audits from the IRS for any accountability there, and is also behind the political, or put his stamp on the politicized prosecutions of people like James Comey and Don Lemon and the rest. So there's a list of reasons aside from this. But this is stunning because especially there was overwhelming bipartisan support. for release of the Epstein files. Pass both houses of Congress, House and Senate with Republican support. So I do not see how if you voted for release of the Epstein files, how you vote to confirm Todd Blanche. Yeah. Molly, you take the confirmation hearings this week. Jay Clayton refusing to say that Joe Biden won and then our intrepid journalist von Hillier getting John Solomon to say, I'm going to quote him, quote, no votes were flipped in 2022, 2020 or 2024. I mean, all the men who sort of sacrificed their integrity in service of Donald Trump end up made fools up. It just doesn't always happen within 24 hours.

Yeah, I mean, look, that's the larger lesson here is that eventually, you know, this administration, they lose in court and they lose in court for a reason because ultimately none of this is legal. All of this is, you know, at best made up. And even what I thought was so interesting about Trump's speech last night was that he set up a, you know, that he was going to say this and that. But in the end, what he really did was sort of. try to misrepresent the facts. You know, he said that there were no, again, you know, but in the end, all of these facts are still, there were no votes changed. Russian did, in fact, try to, you know, affect votes, try to, you know, do propaganda, all the stuff we know. And so the truth is if he wants to make elections safer, he could spend money on election integrity. He could. rehire the group of nonpartisan government workers he just fired. I mean, these are, you know, there are, it just, it's so, it's just so disappointing to be at this moment and to see Donald Trump still, you know, at war with the 2020 election. It's just, and to see these women just desperate for, you know, transparency, some kind of transparency. And it's just such a disappointing moment in American life. I made a carpenter, Molly Jong-Fast. Thank you both for joining me today on all of this. When we come back, chaos on a Florida beach as the Navy's Blue Angels fly way below standard permitted altitude, sending beach umbrellas flying and clouds of sand into the air. The absolutely bananas response from Pete Hegseth is our next story.

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So that was a scene that became terrifying, according to witnesses, in Florida on Wednesday. It happened when the Navy's Blue Angels flew so low over a crowded beach in Pensacola that kids covered their ears and tents and chairs went flying. It is a sort of incident you'd expect. People to apologize for, especially for the Blue Angels who most people love, and especially from an institution, the military, known around the world for its rigorous standards and training and extensive operational experience. But not that the American military is being led by Pete Hegseth, this is what happened instead. A post to X from Pete Hegseth promising, quote, the flyovers will continue until morale improves, end quote. It was followed by a post from the acting secretary of the Navy who wrote, quote, flight debrief complete, no reprimands, no firings, no problem. That's the sound of freedom. Whoia. To clarify, this is what your military leaders. are focusing on, not admitting mistakes, which is terrifying for a country that's currently at war, not doing an after-action that says, yeah, the blue angels are too special to actually endanger children on a beach in Florida. Now, in addition to ensuring service members have high testosterone, That's the focus. Sankham has announced at six consecutive night of strikes on Iran, with Iran saying that American strikes had hit civilian infrastructure, including bridges, a train station, and an airport. All targets it could. If we had further information to suggest this, potentially make up war crimes. I'm going to bring in military analyst, retired Lieutenant General Mark Kirtling. He served as a commanding general, the U.S. Army in Europe. Also joining us, Margaret Donovan. She was captain in the JAG Corps and is the former assistant U.S. Attorney for the District of Connecticut. She's now a visiting lecturer at Yale. Gerald Hartling, at least two people have been killed by flying umbrellas since 2022. I love the Blue Angels. They do a show in San Francisco every year about the marina. It's amazing. And I can't imagine anyone in the Blue Angels wants to be responsible for creating circumstances that could lead to an umbrella flying and impaling a child or any innocent bystander. But those are the conditions that are being put in motion. What's more alarming than the flyover to me is that, you know, giddy up more, more, more. What's going on at the military? Yeah, I'm not sure, Nicole, but in seeing this flight and seeing the film of it,

It was unprofessional and lacking in standards, from my opinion. You know, when the Blue Angels do their magnificent shows, they have to abide by FAA regulations. They get some exceptions to those FAA regulations where they can fly below 500 feet. But they also have something called a close-in show line where they have to avoid any kind of civilians who are watching the shows. This obviously violated all of those regulations and standards. And, you know, the thing that you pointed out in terms of umbrellas flying is one thing that could hurt someone. But even such things as the decibel levels of those jets, just a couple hundred feet above those beachgoers, but also the fact that when you're flying that kind of high-performance aircraft, a bird strike that comes out of the blue. or some kind of malfunction in the aircraft, which happens sometimes at aerial demonstrations, could kill a lot of people. And it's just unnecessary, and in my view, as a military professional, violating on standards and unprofessional. I can't understand how the acting secretary of the Navy in that tweet and the Secretary of Defense could say, hey, this is the sound of freedom, or, you know, everybody should be... happy about this. It's just ridiculous. But it goes in line, by the way, Nicole. You're not talking about the Apache helicopters that did the same thing along a beachline in South Carolina from the South Carolina National Guard and an Apache helicopter that hovered over the terrace of Kid Rock's house in California. So what we're seeing is a Secretary of Defense who fought hard. for a couple of war criminals back when he was a Fox News analyst, extending these kind of poor standards to the entire military. And if you ask me, it is having an effect on the morale of the military of people who understand that military members execute controlled chaos. They are just allowing chaos across the board in terms of these violations. Well, when you look at the leadership, sending the message that this conduct is acceptable, Margaret, you think about how most people are raising their kids not to get in the car with a drunk driver. This is like the parents saying, no, here, get in, have another, give the driver this beer for me. This is like the authority figure saying, do the dangerous thing without any regard for the professionalism, the lifelong resume and record that the men and women of the military will have long after Pete Hegseth and Donald Trump are in the dustbin of history. And the consequences for any innocent civilians who are injured or killed. Yeah, I mean, the significance for me goes even beyond that. So just to contextualize this a little bit, in the military, a commander of a unit, for example, the squadron commander or the commander of the Blue Angels, they have actual military justice authority. So they have inherent authority to investigate misconduct, deviation from standards, or criminal offenses. That's different than the civilian world. Your boss can't, you know, bring criminal charges against you. That would have to go to a DA.

But that's a really important feature of the military because it allows commanders to maintain good order and discipline in their units. And so I bring that up because the actions of the Secretary of the Navy and the Secretary of Defense are remarkable in and of themselves, but also their declaration that this won't be investigated, that no misconduct will be found here. that is actually taking away a really key authority of the commanders that are actually in charge of those operations or of those units that have been doing those flyovers. Now, I'm not saying any of these would have resulted in a court martial. Maybe they wouldn't. But aviation incidents are among the most aggressively investigated in the military for the exact reasons that you just outlined. They are extremely dangerous and fatal if something goes wrong. So it is very much in a commander's interest to want this investigated, even if they're not leaning towards, you know, uniform code of military justice offense at the end of it, but simply to make sure that training standards are being adhered to. And so this sort of taking away of the lower commanders authorities by the Secretary of the Navy and the Secretary of Defense, I think that that has very significant knock-on effects in terms of how commanders can run their units. I'd also note just as backdrop, Pete Hegseth has never been in a command position before this. So I think the most command he had was a platoon leader. And that position doesn't have that inherent uniform code of military justice and investigative authority. So it's not really surprising that he wouldn't understand the effects of that. But I just, I would have to think that a commander who is watching that happen, any of those flyovers that you just played, they must be thinking, look, this is a very fraught time between the civilian and the military. maybe read the room a little bit and don't do a military show of force over a bunch of civilians. And they might have very good reason to want to look into this, but they've basically been prevented from doing that because of the secretary's actions. And, Nicole, can I add something to that too? Because Margaret's right on track, and I'll go from not the legal side, but the commander's side. If you're the commander of the Blue Angels and you've just been overridden by the Secretary of the Navy and the Secretary of Defense, that's called command influence. At that point as the commander, the lieutenant commander, the commander, the captain, whoever it is in the Navy, says, hey, what happens if this happens again? You know, can I say anything or am I just going to be overridden? And who's going to take responsibility if that aircraft does have a bird strike? Is it going to be the Secretary of Defense? No, I'm on the line for making sure good morale and discipline is adhered to in my unit. So it just causes a generational issue with command authority, as Margaret said, but also with, you know, just... overriding what commanders are supposed to do under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Well, there's more because when you're covering Pete Hegseth said there's always more. He's declared war on low T. I'll tell you about that on the other side of a short break.

But I think is indicative of the fact that there are so many people in this administration that have some weird, like... intense, homoerotic feelings towards men while also being incredibly homophobic, and not just homophobic, but like hate mongering, fear mongering about the LGBT community. So let me be clear. I don't think the homoeroticism is the weird part. The weird part is that they pretend that that's not what it's about. Well, that was one take about Pete Hegseth wore on low tea. I respect science and medicine. And if anyone has an issue, I'm all for them dealing with this. But this is someone who is presiding over the Pentagon while there are, there's a flu outbreak in Texas tied to the elimination of recommendations for flu vaccines. And this is a real push that seems to mean that Pete Hegseth is looking at. supplementing testosterone for the men of the military. Your thoughts, Margaret. Well, Nicole, there is so much here. Like everybody else, I thought Secretary Pete Hegseth's video was an AI joke and a hilarious one. But then I learned that it was real. Me too, my friend. Me too. So now that we know that this is a serious real-life thing that is happening, there's a number of issues with it. The first thing that came to my mind is that the government is litigating this right now in the D.C. Circuit and at the appellate court, and we'll likely go to the Supreme Court. They are trying to keep transgender service members out of the military. Now, their primary reason for doing that, as the appellate court found, is animus and unconstitutional discrimination against them. But their backup argument is basically... we don't have the ability to medically manage hormonal treatments. I am very interested to know how the government is going to square those statements and that argument with Pete Hegseth's open endorsement of testosterone supplements, which, by the way, is a Schedule 3 controlled substance. And in most leagues, considered a performance enhancing drug. So it will be very interesting for me, I think, to see where that leads. But there are a few other issues as well. As I just said, it is a performance-enhancing drug. This is a Schedule 3 substance that is intended by Secretary Hexat's own words to plus up people's physical performances. Well, if it is only going to men, that is going to skew results on physical fitness tests significantly for people who receive it and people who don't. Don't know if that's accounted for in the physical fitness testing, but as...

I think you know that's a very significant part of how people get promoted, whether or not they can pass that test and how good they do on it. And then as you pointed out, the sheer hypocrisy of being worried about medical readiness when you have an entire basic training course taken out at Lackland Air Force Base in Texas because he didn't want the flu vaccine. I mean, it's just, it's hard to really even comprehend all of it. And then lastly, for me, the elephant in the room is. you know, what does this mean for women? He did not make any distinction between men and women in the policy and the one-page preview of it that just published. So that remains to be seen. But this is, it is all kinds of problematic. Yeah. And I guess if he was an otherwise serious leader with a real side hobby interest in, you know, longevity, you could say like, well, a serious leader looking at the most evolved science and maybe if that same leader was looking at HRT for. for women in the opposite. You know, I don't know, but this is a bad faith leader who came on Trump's radar because he championed going around the military's criminal justice system on Fox News. That's why he and Trump are together. So this isn't a person with reverence for the traditions of the military. This isn't a person who is filmed doing much other than, like it looks like jazzercise with the troops. I think saying he exercises with them doesn't even really get at it. What is your, top concern if you could land online, Gemma Harling. Well, Nicole, I've got a little bit of experience with this. And I do know that men with documented deficiencies receive testosterone replacement or restoration therapy often experience. Increase lean muscle mass, improve strength if they're on a strength training program, better recovery after strenuous activity. I think that is what Secretary AgSeth is enamored with. But TRT also frequently causes... increased hematicrip, which causes potential blood clots, pulmonary embolisms, strokes, dramatically reduced sperm counts, infertility while on the treatment. And, you know, if we're talking about making healthy individuals stronger, which is what I got from Secretary Pete Hegseth message, then that discussion is now shifting from medical treatment to human performance enhancement. And that raises a whole lot of questions about ethics, fairness, long-term health, and as Margaret just said, military policy. So all of those things come into play. But here's the interesting thing. As you can probably see from the sign behind me, I'm in a hospital right now because I teach leadership to a bunch of physicians. And just, you know, knowing that I was coming on today, I asked a cardiologist or urologist.

and three endocrinologists what they thought of this, and all of them laughed out loud. And in fact, the three endocrinologist peppered me with information for about a half hour on all the things that are wrong with this particular policy. Now, if someone comes in... exhibiting the diagnosis of someone with low T, they can be treated. But when you're talking about treating them with this kind of therapy, you're talking about taking readings over a three-day... three-day period at the same time. Fasting before they do that. The potential for all the damage that could be done is sequential. It's pulse activated. And all three of the endocrinologist told me that they treat those with low testosterone, and it's a very difficult thing to do. So when you're talking as Secretary Pete Hegseth did about treating everyone. 30 and above in the U.S. military, by my count, that's about a million and a half people that are over 30 years old, and it would cost a whole lot of money, and it may result in some really bad diagnosis. So to say it's a bad idea is an understatement. Lieutenant General Mark Hurtling, Margaret Donovan, thank you both so much for spanning these topics and joining us today. Quick break for us. We'll be right back.

My guest on the newest episode of the Best People podcast is one of the most important people in this moment, knitting together of this fire hose of news with American history and the threat of authoritarianism. She makes sense of the news we get every day from Donald Trump. She's historian Heather Cox Richardson. She writes the extremely popular substack letters from an American. That episode drops tonight for premium subscribers and for everybody on Monday. We want to thank you for letting us into your homes for another week of shows. We are so grateful. Omniwatch protects way more than just your passwords and logins. We protect what matters most. You, your family, and the life you live online. From scam alerts to dark web monitoring, Omniwatch has you covered around the clock. Real experts are just a call away. And with plans up to $4 million in identity theft insurance, you get total peace of mind. So whether you're Garden Gal 54 or Dad Bod 23, Omniwatch helps you browse, shop, and connect with confidence. Go to Omniwatch.com to get protected today.