Will Epstein Files Take Down the British Government?

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Welcome to Pottaid the World. I'm Tommy Vitor. I'm Ben Rhodes. Ben, hello from New Zealand. I think it's 21 hours difference here. What time is it there? So it is, where's my phone? It is Wednesday, February 11th at 11.07. So you're like way ahead. Yeah. So you get on the plane. I got on the plane at 10.30 at night in L.A. time. And then you land on Tuesday. So you just like Thanos a day. Yep. And Monday just never exists. If you come back, you'll get it back. You get it back on the way on the way back. You get it back. But it's like basically the easiest way to think about it. It's like negative 21 or you guys are 21 behind me. But in practice, it's as if you're three hours ahead. So I'm just treating you like you're in New York and I'm in L.A. That makes sense. I mean, I hope you've been able to lick your wounds out there. There's not a lot of people talking Patriots, Drake May. I was wondering if you're going to get to this. So I did pack one sweatshirt, and it is a Patriot sweatshirt. Luckily, it's pretty warm in New Zealand and Australia this time of year. But, yeah, it's tough. Hey, you made it. And you have a 22-year-old quarterback. I think he'll be back. I think it'll be fine. Listen, you know, just be grateful you made it there. I guess apparently the whole Patriots didn't play anyone good strength of schedule thing. They had a point. Yeah, that kind of bore out. That kind of bore out. I mean, you had the... bow nicks go down i mean but uh hey you know you you got there you got i'm a jets fan like we haven't smelled the super bowl since before i was born so no you're uh you just watch former quarterbacks win super bowl's shout out sam i know i know one of my one of our guys yeah yeah Ben, did you see this morning, or maybe it was yesterday, who knows when it was, Trump threatened to close down the Gordy Howe Bridge between Michigan and Ontario. I did. I want to read you a verbatim quote and tell me if this sort of vibes with the intelligence you read about China back in the day. Yeah. Prime Minister Carney wants to make a deal with China, which will eat Canada alive. We'll just get the leftovers. I don't think so. The first thing China will do is terminate all ice hockey being played in Canada and permanently eliminate the Stanley Cup. Are you aware of Xi Jinping being in support of like a hockey genocide? I'm not, nor am I aware of Trump being commissioner of the National Hockey League. But maybe, you know, if the Canadians don't want to be smart about it, you know, Wayne Gretzky's super MAGA hanging out Trump all time. Maybe they should just rename the bridge, the Wayne Gretzky Bridge, and then they keep it open. I don't know. That's a pretty good idea. I was a badass. He was a badass. All right. So we got a wide range of topics today, kind of befitting our 21-hour time difference. We're going to start in the UK where Prime Minister Keir Starmer is facing calls to resign based on his administration's association with Jeffrey Epstein. Accountability, must be nice. We're also going to tell you about a landside election in Japan and how those results could permanently change the Constitution and character of the country.

Trump's got a big trip to China coming up in April. We'll explain how two major issues in the U.S.-China relationship are threatening to derail that visit. We're also going to update you on these reports we talked about last week about the Director of National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard, suppressing this super-duper top secret, only allowed one copy in a safe whistleblower report. So since we talked, Congress finally got a copy of the thing and then some details have leaked out in the media. And then finally, we're going to check in on the Olympics. We've got the cheers, the booze, the cheating scandal that somehow involves inflated penises but not sex. So we'll unpack all that one, the scandal that's rocking the Olympics. The scandal for our times, if ever there was one. Yeah. Yes, indeed. Metaphorically rocking that is. And then, Ben, you did our interview today. What are we going to hear? Yeah, I talked to Nilu Tabrizzi, who's been on before. She's... was actually just laid off from the Washington Post, where she was an investigative reporter, focused on Iran, wrote an extraordinary book about Iran. Well, now that's happening there, so it's a good time to kind of make sure we flesh insight into that. Exactly. I mean, her being fired at this moment actually points to the absolute absurdity. of what they just did there. But we talked about how that went down, what it was like, literally, like, you know, how do they lay off all those people? What's going to be lost with all these foreign desks going away? Where international news coverage might be going in this period of, you know, consolidation and layoffs. The Jeff Bezos of it all and what it's like to feel like you've been laid off by a guy that, you know, could have, like, lost the... change in his couch that would have paid for the Washington Post for the rest of his life. And also her impression of what's happening in Iran based on her conversations with sources. So really important conversation, people should check it out. Yeah, the marketing budget on the Melania movie could have saved, what, like the entire forum bureaus basically for several years. So, yeah, that's great. Well, I'm excited to listen to that. I'm sorry that that happened to her. Obviously, we here at Pazzi of the World cannot replace, like, major media institutions like The Washington Post, but I think that story is a sign that they are billionaires who are not coming to save us. So if you want to help support independent, progressive media. You know, thanks for watching the show. Thanks for subscribing. Subscribe if you're watching on YouTube. Subscribe if you're listening as a podcast. But if you, if that's not enough for you, if you want to, you know, do even more and become a supporter of Crooked Media itself, please consider becoming a paid subscriber. It really is the single most important thing you could do to help us grow as a company. You get lots of bonus content. You get ad-free episodes. You get a lot more. If you just go to Crooked. dot com slash friends for more information we have experienced explosive growth over here ben people are calling us the bad bunny of podcasting if you want to dip into that yeah a little mini scandal from over the weekend um just like people that are mad about the super bowl half done show just like just mute it

I don't have to watch. I was also like an absolute banger and a very world-o halftime show with the end with all the Americas. I had a little tear in the eye on that one. It was cool. It was like watching like a movie. It was just like it was really well. And actually, yeah, I was like I grew up in New York where there are two million, I think, Puerto Ricans. And so I like I was like, oh yeah, like that some of that was familiar to me. But then it was just so deep in that culture. It was a pretty extraordinary immersive. And it like that. So anyway, I'm shocked that Trump wasn't out about it. What a surprise. Oh, what a surprise. Well, a kid rock show is, you know, I'm sure it's great. I love people were tweeting out like lyrics from his songs that are like about, you know, suck on my balls this or that. It's like, okay, have fun. Your Christian halftime show. Everybody. You'll turn point. You'll say content there. Kid rock hasn't been cool for 25 years, if ever. If ever. Okay. So we got, let's start with the UK because, you know, while our president has faced no consequences for his decades long, close personal friendship with disgraced pedophile Jeffrey Epstein, there are growing calls for British Prime Minister Keir Starmer to resign over his government's ties to Epstein. So some quick context just to catch everybody up here. Until late last summer. The British ambassador to the U.S. was a guy named Peter Mandelson. Peter Mandelson was once a top aide to former Prime Minister Tony Blair, though Peter Mandelson had a rocky career that kind of like was waylaid by repeated scandals. But despite that checkered history, despite the fact that it was pretty well known that Peter Mandelson had a relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, Keir Starmer still made him the ambassador to the U.S. Now, Peter Mandelson was ultimately fired from that post last September after the House Oversight Committee released a bunch of emails between Epstein and Peter Mandelson that showed they remained closed even after Epstein had been convicted of soliciting sex from a minor. I think he was emailing him about crashing at his place like while Epstein was in jail or on whatever like cushy jail he had in Florida. And then, though, things got exponentially worse for labor after that latest tranche of Epstein files released by DOJ that revealed that Peter Mandelson was forwarding Jeffrey Epstein's sensitive government information. We talked about this last week, but it was like genuinely shocking stuff. secret details about the U.S. and U.K. response to the financial crisis, internal memos that went to then Prime Minister Gordon Brown, much more. So Keir Starmer now says that Mantleson lied to him and lied to his team during the vetting for the job. Keir Starmer was pressed on this question of what vetting was done with Mendelsohn. during prime minister's question time. Here's a bit of that answer. And then there's another clip from Keir Starmer apologizing to victims at a separate event. And then you'll hear Keir Starmer's even more defiant tone on Tuesday. Let's watch. Can the Prime Minister tell us, did the official security vetting he received mention Peter Mandelson's ongoing relationship with the paedophile, Jeffrey Epstein? Prime Minister? Yes, it did.

As a result, various questions were put to him. I want to make sure this House sees the full documentation, so it will see for itself the extent to which, the extent to which time and time again, Peter Mandelson completely misrepresented the extent of his relationship with Epstein and lied throughout the process, including in response to the due diligence. The victims of Epstein have lived... with trauma that most of us can barely comprehend. I am sorry. Sorry for what was done to you. Sorry that so many people with power failed you. Sorry for having believed Peter Mandelson's lies and appointed it. There are some people in recent days who say the Labour government should have a different fight, a fight with itself. instead of a fight for the millions of people who need us to fight for them. And I say to them, I will never walk away from the mandate I was given to change this country. The fight coming up in politics, the real fight is not in the Labour Party. It's with the right-wing politics that challenges that. The politics of reform. So Morgan McSweeney, who is Keir Starmer's now former chief of staff, took responsibility for pushing the select Mendelsohn for that job. McSweeney has since resigned. But the question is, will that be enough? And really, like, will members of the Labor Party decide that this is their moment to push out Keir Starmer and make a leadership change that many of them already wanted? because Labor's approval rating has basically been heading in a line straight down since the last election in 2024. According to the economist, Keir Starmer, is now the most unpopular prime minister in their recorded history. His net approval rating is worse than Liz Truss at her lowest, though Ben, she was defenestrated after only 49 days, so maybe it's not a fair comparison. Anas Sarwar, the head of the Scottish Labor Party, called on Keir Starmer to resign. Here's just a bit of what he had to say. The situation in Downing Street is not good enough. There have been too many mistakes. They promised they were going to be different, but too much has happened. Have there been good things? Of course there have. Many of them. But no one knows them and no one can hear them because they're being drowned out. That's why it cannot continue. Keir Starmer Armour is a decent man. And it is no secret that I've always got on well with them. And he has dedicated his life to public service. I have also dedicated myself to public service and I need to decide what I'm willing to accept and what I'm willing to tolerate. Okay, so Ben, so far, like the top labor ministers are all sticking with Keir Starmer and backing him publicly. But like this challenge is not really about Jeffrey Epstein. It's about like for Keir Starmer. It's about getting the economy going, demonstrating a clear vision to voters, convincing the rest of the labor party that you're the guy for this moment. And I have to say like it feels very hard to see how he's going to write this ship and serve out a full term. Like he might survive this near term issue. But like.

I don't know, man. He's got like a dead man walking vibe. But what do you think? I agree with you. And I think it's worth kind of doing the brief journey to how we got here. And first of all, it's interesting. And Alex and I talked about the Sampats of America, Tommy, but... The fact that Keir Keir Starmer wasn't even in the Epstein files. I know. Right? And yet he may be taken out by one person who's in the files, Peter Mandelson, and all these Americans are evading all this accountability, including a current president and maybe a former president. I wish we still had a system where shame and transparency. You know, not that the British system is perfect by any measure, but at least that there's still some gravity there. I know. And like Howard Lutnick, like the Commerce Secretary. Yeah, he like made up a story about we cut ties on TV and then went to fucking Epstein Island was doing business deals with the guy. Yeah. Like, fire your Commerce Secretary. No one gives a shit about the Commerce Secretary. Anyway, continue. Well, no, but that's the point, right? The point is that we don't fire anybody. But, look, Morgan McSweeney is central to this whole thing. And I've met Morgan McSweeney a bunch of times. And so I met him right when Keir Starmer became leader. And this guy was like the, you know, David Axelrod, David, he was the absolute political strategist, like dictatorial political strategist at Labor Party. And he orchestrated a very successful for his purposes and Keir Starmer's purposes. reorientation of labor party so it's coming out Jeremy Corbyn they'd taken a left turn they basically purged all the Jeremy Corbyn people made a big show of purging uh some anti-semitic elements tacked to the center rebuilt bridges to the kind of blair class of the Labor Party. And that's where Peter Millenison comes in because he's the quintessential version of he's not a leftist. He's an operator. You know, he's a guy that is, you know, Mr. Globalization, right? And all the way to the worst parts that Jeff... Knows all the bankers has lots of contacts, exactly, yeah. And so where this all comes together is that... And Peter Mandelson as ambassador reflected like poor judgment. You know, you should have looked a little harder at him. But it also reflected a choice that Keir Starmer made from the beginning about how to govern, which is to take that kind of cautious, always look over your right shoulder, tack to the center, befriend the globalist approach. And, you know, the kind of Peter Mandelson politics, that became, I think, to a lot of people, at least what Keir Starmer was projecting. So it's both the immediate scandal. It's also the fact that. this was the play they made. It wasn't just that and Peter Mandelson was in the Bachelor of UK. They kind of took on that approach to politics and it's worked out horribly for them. And the reason I agree with you, too, Tom, is that like, if he was as strong, you know, in the polls and he was doing well, like, I think he could survive this. But, but ultimately, he's in the toilet with his numbers.

And what happens in the UK is they have these by-elections. You know, these are kind of our version of off-your-your-local elections that are kind of bellwethers for the public mood is. And if labor gets absolutely pasted in one or succession of those elections, then I think you might see the final damn break and Keir Starmer have to go. Yeah, and they've done a lot of the shuffling stuff. Like, I think as Communications Director, Keir Starmer's Communications Director, also quit on Monday. You know, the economist noted that in 19 months, Keir Starmer's lost two chiefs of staff, four directors of communications, and 11 ministers. So they've been doing the kind of internal reshuffle thing. It ain't working. And to your point, like, you know, they campaigned on, you know, taxes not going up. It's clear they can't really keep that promise. They campaigned hard as an effort to, you know, sort of. defang the right wing on stopping the small boats and cutting down immigration. They haven't been able to deliver on that in part because you can never kind of outright wing the right wing. And so I think I saw Keir Starmer. approval rating is now at 23%, right? By the way, Ben, Axios had a list of, like, European leader approval ratings. Emmanuel Macron is at the bottom with 16%. Yeah. Friedrich Merz over in Germany is at 21%. Keir Starmer at 23%. But then also, I saw U.Gov did surveys tracking Europeans' opinions of the U.S. and more than 60% of the population of Denmark, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, and Great Britain now have an unfavorable view of the U.S. That includes 72% of Germans and 84% of Danes. So you have these, like, you have these, like, unpopular European leaders and then populations that are starting to hate America. And it's just, none of this feels good. Also, by the way, like, police are also now investigating whether Prince Andrew broke the law by sharing other documents with Epstein. So back on to your, like, accountability point. Like, it's only seemingly happening in the UK. There's zero accountability back home. Yeah. And I think, though, that that, combination of their actually being accountability in Europe and their hatred of America these days. I think is going to motivate really aggressive investigations into the Epstein file follow-ups, right, including of the Americans in it, some of whom do business in Europe. And so we may be in this kind of strange position where the most aggressive legal and journalistic follow-through on the Epstein files, including related to Americans, is going to happen in Europe because they're pissed over there. Like, that's one thing you take away from all those polls is people are pissed. And Epstein kind of... is the worst version of American hegemony, let's just say, right? Some just monster, right, who's also got this network of powerful people. So, you know, that's something to watch, too. Not just kind of what happens can curious. I mean, what you can hear him doing is something you should have done for the beginning, which is trying to pick a fight with Nigel Farage and just, you know, make it a choice, essentially. But he's not a particularly combative guy. He's not...

comfortable in the culture wars. He's been very, like, defensive, as you say, on immigration. Not sure that will work for him. We'll see. Maybe it will. Maybe he can write this ship. But I do think either way, this kind of European anger among publics and elites is going to probably motivate them digging deep on what they can find on Epstein. 100% because, in fact, what you're also seeing is, you know, like the Danish prime minister met to Fredrickson. Her approval rating is up because she told Trump where to shove it. Right? Yeah. Good for her. When we're unpopular over there, and you're seeing polling, like, leaders benefit in the polls from seeming tough in confronting Trump. Like, we know where this is going to go. One other update, Ben. So last week, we did this big section on Tulsi Gabbard, the director of national intelligence. She had been in the news a bunch because she was weirdly, like, on the scene at the FBI's rate of the Fulton County Election Office in Georgia, which was very weird. It turned out Trump told her to be there. And then there was this mysterious Wall Street Journal report about Tulsi Gabbard blocking a whistleblower complaint from being sent up to Congress, in part because it was highly classified, but also seemingly because of politics. So since then. The intelligence communities inspector general has turned the report itself, the whistleblower report over to Congress, the so-called gang of eight, which is the chairman and vice chairman of the Senate intelligence committee, chairman and ranking member in the House Intelligence Committee, then the speaker, House minority leader, Senate majority leader, and Senate minority leader, all of that access to it. There's also been some news reports about the substance of the whistleblower report. The Guardian says the NSA intercepted a conversation between two individuals connected with a foreign intelligence service talking about someone close to Trump. Now, the sourcing in the story, the Guardian story, is a lawyer for one of the whistleblowers. And bizarrely, Ben, like the lawyer initially told the Guardian that the call was between a foreign intel person and a Trump aide, but then had to, like, clarify the demon spoke. So it's all a little weird. And then the Times kind of followed up on that. And they said it's not clear where the individuals are from, but that the discussion itself involved Iran. And the report, the whistleblower report, was drafted around when Trump was considering whether or not to strike Iran. So maybe that gives us some more sort of visibility into this thing. The Times also says, like, there's a debate about the underlying value of the intelligence or whether these, you know, intel people were gossiping or spreading this information or what. But it does seem pretty clear that Tulsi Gabbard screwed up. either unintentionally or intentionally by not getting this report over to Congress in the time frame required. And while there may have been some complexity to it, given, you know, the level of classification and limited reasons to distribute it, she also passed a copy along to Susie Wiles, Trump's chief of staff, would suggest there was some like political ass covering happening. So I don't know, man, like what do you make of this as we're getting these little drips of information? Anything like any clarity? No clarity. I mean, we could jump to the conspiracy theorizing. There's heavy Steve Witkoff vibes in here. Maybe not a Trump aide, but he's involved in Iran. I don't know. But we don't know. We don't know. We don't know. Here's what jumped out to me, Tommy. I mean, first of all, people should know. Sure, the NSA vacuums up all these calls. And I presume that Trump's NSA is probably even less, you know, restrained than the Obama NSA, which...

You know, ambiguity. Yeah, the Wall Street Journal had a piece out, I think, yesterday about like, that I forget with the total is like $1.4 billion has been made by the Trump family from their crypto businesses with like Zach Steve Witkoff, Steve Witkoff, son in charge of it. So yeah, there's a lot of avenues for corruption. Potta of the World is brought to you by American Giant. It sucks when you buy a new t-shirt, wear it twice, wash it a couple times, and it's just gone. It just falls apart. It looks like crap. A lot of outerwear. It's not made to last to last out. This time of year, a good hoodie is essential, but it can be tough to find one that will last through the season. The American Giant classic full-zip hoodie is made to last a lifetime. So you can count on it to bring you comfort and warmth year after year. Slate magazine called it the greatest hoodie ever made. And from cotton to zipper, it's made right here in the U.S. I love my American Giant sweatshirts. I do too. I got great sweatpants, too. Speaking of items, I need to hold up to a lot of wear. My kids are constantly smearing crap all over them, so they get washed all the time, and they still fit great. They look good. Like the day I got them. So I really like them. And the great hoodie is a staple for any wardrobe. The iconic classic full-zip hoodie is the jacket that started it all for American Giant. Custom heavyweight fleece and side panels for mobility, make it the best hoodie ever. Body skimming fit with double-lined hoods and reinforced elbow patches mean this hoodie will last. Born from a commitment to support the communities that create its products, every American Giant piece is made in America and designed to last. No exceptions. It's the kind of difference you'll feel and appreciate for years to come. We love a good item of clothing. And we're also old enough to remember that when American Maine jeans got you an HBO show. So we salute you, American Giant this season. Snag the hoodie that will bring you comfort for life, the American Giant, classic full-tip, and save 20% off your first order at American-Dashgiant.com, code world. That's 20% off your first order at American-dash-giant.com, code world. Potsay the World is brought to you by Sundays for dogs. We all love the idea of feeding our dogs real fresh food, but the reality is that fresh dog food usually means taking up freezer space, time to thaw and prep, and a lot of mess when you serve it. Get the good without the hassle with Sundays. Sundays was founded by a veterinarian and mom, Dr. Tori Waxman, who got tired of seeing so-called premium dog food full of fillers and synthetics. So she designed Sundays, air-dried, real dog food made in human-grade kitchens using the same ingredients and care you'd use to cook for yourself and your family. Every bite of Sundays is clean and made from 100% meat and superfoods with no kibble. That means no weird ingredients you can't pronounce and no fillers. Compared to kibble or other brands out there, Sundays invests 50 times more in its ingredients to ensure premium quality. Because your dog deserve food made with care, not in the interest of cost cutting. And the best part, you just scoop and serve. No freezer, no thawing, no prep, no mess. Just nutrient-rich, clean food that fuels their happiest, healthiest days. So you get more of them to share together. Love and I love our dogs. Yeah, we do. We do love our dogs. Like family. They are family. And so, of course, you want to feed your dog the best food you can. You want to make them happy. You want them to be healthy. You want them to have more energy and a better mood, more calm and focused and softer fur and all the good stuff. Make the switch to Sundays. Go right now to Sundays for dogs.com slash world 50 to get 50% off your first order, or you can use the code world 50 at checkout. That's 50% off your first order at Sundays for dogs.com slash world 50, Sundays for dogs.com slash world 50, or use the code world 50 at checkout.

All right, Ben, so let's turn to Japan, where Prime Minister Sana'i Takaichi's gamble to call a snap early election to consolidate her power turned out to be a staggering success. So, Takaichi's party, the LDP, they won this historic victory on Sunday. They picked up more than 100 seats outright, which means the LDP has about 316 seats on their own. And then with their coalition partners, they now control over 350. of the 465 seat lower house of the national diet, which is Japan's legislature. So Takeichi basically pulled a reverse Keir Starmer armor here. She got like when she became prime minister. She barely got enough support from within the party to get the job. But then 100 days later, she calls this election and then she delivered her party a supermajority through it. And the win was because of her, not because of the LDP's popularity. The LVP, as we've talked about before, like they've basically ruled Japan's in 1955 with two brief kind of interruptions. But after former prime minister Shinzo Abe's resignation in 2020, The party's been a bit of a mess. They've had a bunch of like terrible candidates for prime minister. And they've been losing support. And so what Takeichi did is she seems to have almost single-handedly revived the party. And in the process. destroyed the traditional opposition parties. They just got crushed in the polls. And so the question now is, what is she going to do with this power? Takeichi has talked about drastically ramping up Japan's defense spending in Japan's defense industry. That's an option. She's talked about amending Japan's constitution, in particular Article 9, which renounces war and codifies Japan as a pacifist nation. That language was basically written by the U.S. and imposed on Japan in 1947 after World War II. She's also talked about major spending to juice the economy and drive growth. So we just don't know. I guess we'll now wait and see what she decides. Maybe it'll be a hybrid. Maybe it'll be parts and other parts. But like the thing to know is that basically no one can stop her, like not the opposition in parliament, not her own party. Ben, what did you make of the results and how she ran and what it means for the balance of power, you know, in Asia and the partnership with the U.S.? Well, it connects back to what you said about the Prime Minister of Denmark, right? Because Takeichi, and we said this at the time. Like, she got into this fight with the Chinese, and she doubled down on it. And that nationalism played well. Like, we're at a time when people want strong leaders who seem like they're standing up for national interests. And so she's another case in point, and she's on the right. But I think, frankly, you could be on the right or the left if, you know, people want to see kind of strong leadership, and she kind of sensed that mood. Now, she's very conservative, and then that leads to what the ramifications of this are. And look, I mean, Japan has been, in its constitution, a nation, you know, dedicated only to having self-defense, not having any militarism given its past and given the U.S. rule in drafting that constitution. But it also has had this kind of building set of complicated relationships in its neighborhood.

It would take a long time to unpack why, but I think from the outside in, from the Chinese or South Korean perspective, for instance, it's that Japan didn't necessarily... a tone for its wartime sins in the way even that a Germany has. You know, the ruins are still raw. But at the same time, from the Japanese perspective, the Chinese Communist Party has been stirring up anti-Japanese nationalism for a long time. And it is virulent. I mean, I see some of this stuff. And so it's got to be kind of scary to have this giant... country next to you that is getting stronger and stronger and is part of its identity is kind of hating, you know, Japan. And at the same time, the U.S. is not the reliable security guarantor that it has been because Trump, you know, while he hasn't really, you know, singled out Japan this time around, can you really trust that the U.S. is going to be there to defend you against China? And so I think there are some natural things that we're building over time. in terms of the security dimension in the region, in terms of the U.S. alliance. And then along comes, you know, the Margaret Thatcher of Japan. And I think we're going to find out what it's like. And while I think some of this was inevitable, And she may also think maybe I can jumpstart growth by putting a lot of money in defense. I don't know. But it's a little worsen. Because if you've got this flashboard in the Taiwan straight, and that's what got her in trouble with the Chinese in the first place, she said that that was imported Japan's defense. And you start to have a more muscular Japan that's going to freak out the Chinese. And, you know, it just adds to the tinderbox feeling of geopolitics right now. Yeah, that was one of my takeaways, too. I mean, look, just in terms of what she could do, like, you know, she could take steps that make the prime minister more powerful, right? Like, she could change it so she has more power during a crisis. She could lower the bar for future constitutional amendments. She could just sort of, like, add clauses to the Constitution that recognize the self-defense provisions in the military. There's sort of like sort of smaller, more incremental steps she could take than the ones I could have laid out of the top. But, like... I have the same reaction you did, Ben, which was, you know, the F.T mentioned that, like, the Beijing warned Takichi against, quote, retracing the road of militarism. And as you said, like, obviously the Chinese are more than a touch hypocritical here. But it does worry me that one of Trump's, like, core policy. things is pushing countries like Germany, Austria, Italy, Japan to invest more in defense spending right as we are seeing a rise in these like right-wing parties in these countries. And it's like, I don't know, guys, this could end very badly. Yeah. We've seen it before. Yeah, that collection of, you know, that access has not always been the best in the past. But I think that the, you know, foreign policy.

Sometimes people don't appreciate that success is just the absence of worse things happening. And if you look at Northeast Asia, you've got like nuclear-armed North Korea divided from U.S. aligned South Korea, emerging Chinese Communist Party superpower in Beijing, Japan. Like, there's been stability. somehow among those countries in the sense that there hasn't been a war and economic growth has been allowed to you know explode and people trade even if they you know don't like each other um and now if if all of those countries are turning um you know with the exception of south greea for now in this kind of direction I don't know. Like, can that hold for 10 years? I mean, because, you know, she's got beef with the Chinese, but I'm sure the North Koreans, too, and vice versa, you know? And so... If the U.S. is kind of receding from this role of being the kind of security guarantor and we're so big and present that nobody will mess with it, if we're kind of pulling back from that, the concern is, you know, there's opportunity maybe having a different balance of power in the world and new rules. But the downside could be giant vacuums and, you know, the road of militarism, to quote Chinese propaganda, leading to, you know, uncomfortable destinations. Yeah, and a couple of weeks ago, we talked about Xi Jinping's purge of all the senior leaders in the Chinese military. And again, for what folks you understand there is like the PLA, the Chinese military, it's not like the country's military. It's the armed wing of the Chinese Communist Party. So you're not necessarily elevated. Because you fought hard or bravely, it's like you grease the right guy, you bribed the right official. So you could have people with like zero fucking actual military experience at the top of the organization who don't really fully understand the horrors of war at a time when you have this rising military in Japan. And yeah, like you said, like sometimes you don't get a lot of credit as a leader for the dogs that kind of didn't bark or the problems that didn't arise during your tenure. But what you outlined could be a big one. Speaking of China, Ben, so there were two stories out of China that we wanted to flag. The first is Hong Kong media mogul Jimmy Lai was sentenced to 20 years in prison under the national security law that China imposed on Hong Kong back in 2020 after the huge protests in 2019 and 2020. So this sentence, Jimmy Lai's sentence, is the longest sentence. ever given under the national security law. And it probably means he will die in prison unless something changes. He'd be like, you know, late 90s when his sentence technically ends. The prosecution is clearly politically motivated. It's an effort to shut down his newspaper Apple Daily. It's an effort to just crush any lingering hope for press freedom in Hong Kong generally. So that is very bad. The second story is about Taiwan.

So the Financial Times reported that the Trump administration is pulling together another really large arms package for Taiwan that includes some big ticket items like Patriot missiles. Back in December, the U.S. approved an $11 billion arms sale to Taiwan, which was massive then. And they say this next package could be nearly double that size. The number they quote in the story is up to $20 billion. The FT says, When Xi Jinping talked to Trump on the phone last week, he raised this and they quote sources in the story saying that Beijing has warned the U.S. that the arms sale could derail Trump's visit to China in April. So, Ben, I just kind of found this confluence of issues interesting because I think, you know, you and I've said on the show, like we both assume Trump only cares about economics and getting a trade deal with China. However, in the past, he has promised to get Jimmy Lye out of prison. He actually said it would be easy to do so in an interview with Hugh Hewitt, who now has kind of gone quiet on the subject. But like, you know, it's put up or shut up time. And the question is whether Trump will spend any political capital pushing Xi Jinping on Jimmy Lye or any other human rights issue during this visit. The cynic in me does wonder, Ben, if, like, China gives Jimmy Lai 20 years so they can cut a sentence down to five or ten, and Trump can call that a win and they sell their guy in jail. Put that aside. But this arm sale to Taiwan, it does feel like a much bigger hurdle and kind of harder to unwind given where the Republican Party is and given the congressional role in arming Taiwan. So I don't know, what was your read on what's happening here and like whether this actually creates some real turbulence for Trump as he heads to Beijing in April? I think it does. And first of all, we should say, Jimmy Lye is a hero. And he's rich enough that he could have gotten out of there at a certain point and lived a certain kind of life. But he stuck by his newspaper and his principles. Interesting contrast to Jeff Bezos, by the way. Jeff Bezos was not at risk of going to prison at all. Jimmy Lye gave everything up for what he believed. All we were asking Jeff Bezos is to do is, you know. keep funding something. I mean, it just shows a difference. It's notable. I don't think that Xi Jinping would let Jimmy lie out of prison. I mean, if I had to bet on it. Because he's a hard ass, you know. I mean, he's, you know, that's, he just purged the military. He's quashed descent in Hong Kong. I think he wouldn't want to be seen to be, you know, even doing a favor for Donald Trump in this kind of human rights space. Like, it's a space where there's usually a slam door. I hope I'm wrong, but my sense is that that wouldn't be in the offing. It might have been earlier, you know, at the beginning of the Trump administration. But now, I mean, I think she's, all his moves suggest a guy internally and externally who's moving at a deliberate pace, but only in one direction, you know. And that's a fairly confrontational direction with the United States on certain things. That leads me to Taiwan. Like, I think Taiwan is the issue that... we're going to be paying a lot more attention to over the next year or two. I mean, it has not featured yet, but it is the flashpoint. You know, they continue to shovel these weapons out the door to the Taiwanese. Trump probably likes arms sales for a variety of reasons. They do, you know, provoke Beijing. And in the past, the way that the Chinese have dealt with that.

is yes, sometimes by canceling meetings. Never a presidential visit, though. That would be a huge signal if they actually did that. I don't think they will. But what they tend to do in response is they'll do some really aggressive military exercises around Taiwan. You know, they'll fly over their airspace or fly missiles over their airspace or, you know, have like an armada that is uncomfortably close to the Taiwanese land. And, you know, that... that always can risk getting a little scratchy, right? And so I think that's what we're going to see is like this kind of a bit of a spiral, unless Trump just chooses to kind of throw Taiwan overboard and agree to some formulation that essentially abandons them in terms of the U.S. coming to their defense. Either way, I think Taiwan is going to be something that we're talking about more and more over the next year or two. Yeah, definitely one to watch as we head to April in particular. This podcast is sponsored by Squarespace. Squarespace is the all-in-one website platform designed to elevate your online presence and drive your success. Squarespace provides all the necessary tools to claim your domain, build a professional website, expand your brand, and facilitate payments, making it the ideal solution for businesses of all-sizes. Squarespace gives you everything you need to offer services and get paid all-in-one place. From consultations to events and experiences, showcase your offerings with a customizable website designed to attract clients and grow your business. With their collection of cutting edge design tools, anyone can build a bespoke online presence that perfectly fits their brand or business. Squarespace makes it easy to showcase your expertise and engage clients with video content on your website. Upload and organize your videos, create stunning video libraries, and even monetize your content by adding a paywall, perfect for online courses, exclusive tutorials, and premium workshops. Squarespace domains makes easy to find the best name for your business at one fair, all-inclusive price, no hidden fees or add-ons required. Head to Squarespace.com. for a free trial, and when you're ready to launch, go to squarespace.com slash world to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. That's squarespace.com slash world. Pod Save the World is brought to you by Built. It's 2026, and if you're still paying rent without built, it is time for a change. Built is the loyalty program for renters that rewards you for your biggest monthly expense, rent. With Built, every rent payment earns you points that can be used towards flights, hotels, lift rides, Amazon.com purchases, and much more. And here's something to get excited about. Now, Built members can earn points on mortgage payments for the first time. That means you can get rewarded wherever you live and unlock exclusive benefits for more than 45,000 restaurants, fitness studios, pharmacies, and other neighborhood partners. There are a lot of great options here. You can do fitness classes like SoulCycle, berries. Pure Bar. They got the travel portal if you want to plan a vacation. You can just put them on Amazon.com. You can get lift rides. There's tons of different ways you can spend your bill points and make your rent work for you. It's simple. Paying rent is better with Built and now owning a home can be better with Built too. Earn rewards and get something back wherever you live. Join the loyalty program for renters at joinbilt.com slash world. That's J-O-I-N-B-I-L-T.com slash world. Make sure to use our URLs. They know we sent you.

Finally, Ben, the Winter Olympics are happening in Italy as we speak. So the host cities are technically Milan and Cortino, although the events are really happening all over northern Italy. Breezy Johnson won the first gold medal for the U.S. and downhill skiing. U.S. figure skaters won gold in the team competition in part thanks to the quad god. I don't know. Two great names. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Quad God and Breezy Johnson. My daughters were into the quad god. Quad God. I mean, that's cool. Well, because you can do these jumps that nobody else can do. You know, like that's a backflip. Yeah. Yeah. Fucking wild. Yeah. There's also been some heartbreak. Lindsay Vaughn, she was trying to come back at age 41 and trying to compete with the torn ACL. I do not understand how you do that. But also, but had this horrible crash. and had to be airlifted off of the chorus with the tibia fracture. That was tough. Speaking of painful things to look at, Vice President JD Vance was booed when his face was shown on the stadium big screen at the opening ceremony, but he is not mad about it, Ben. Speaking of not mad, Donald Trump decided to personally attack a freestyle skier named Hunter Hess for daring to say that he doesn't agree with everything happening in the U.S. at all times, basically. Love all the free speech absolutists in the White House. And then finally. We have to talk about this ever-growing cheating scandal that is turning the sport of ski jumping upside down. So the German newspaper built reported that ski jumpers were allegedly injecting their penises with hyaluronic acid to enlarge them. So this is how this scheme would work. Ski jumpers wear special suits. They're specially made based on the size of the individual athlete's body, including the crotch area. So those measurements are determined by a 3D body scanner, and they're taken in front of a doctor. So that the total size of the suit matters, though, because even a small amount of additional fabric or material on the suit can create more drag and more lift and help you fly farther. So the theory goes, you inject your junk with this acid. It's like lip filler, basically. It swells up. You get fitted for a bigger suit with more surface area. you go further. Now, this story is probably total bullshit. And the junk juicing would have had to happen like months ago when the suits were made. So we can't like got and test it now. But it is one of those stories that is too good to fact check. Ben, I have not had the Olympics on the last couple of days because I was on a plane for seven trillion hours. And now I'm in a time zone. I can't understand. But what events are you watching? First of all, I feel like this last segment is getting edgier and edger with each passing week. I do one thing on the JD Vance and then the Olympics. The, um, uh, I, I, I, it is weird, uh, and important that we at an Olympics in Europe.

We're kind of like the bad guys, you know. We're like what the Soviet Union used to be when they showed up at these places. You know, like our JD Vance is getting booed. Our athletes, poor athletes are having to answer for, you know, ice. And actually, most of them are saying the right things. But that's like, you know, that's, as an American, that should make you uncomfortable. You know, I mean, any other time, I was on the... the U.S. delegation to the closing ceremonies at the London Olympics, and, you know, they were cheering for American athletes like, you know, they were cousins or something, you know, so that was a little, you know, jarring. Yeah, I love the Winter Olympics because, like, I watched, I found myself, uh, watching curling. I love little curling. And trying to explain that to my kids was like an interesting journey. But I like the idea that there's still these subcultures of people around the world that do like one thing obsessively. I totally agree. And then every four years, like you get to see their excellence at it. Bob sled is the same way, right? It's like, well, the better athletes over the bobsled. I mean, you're sprinting as fast as humanly possible and shoving a heavy-ass sled, but it's cool as hell. It is. And, you know, I watch figure skating is on a lot in my house. I didn't want to watch Lindsay Vaughn because I had a sense of foreboding about the ACL thing freaked me out. But on the ski jump junk scandal, besides being physically uncomfortable thinking about it, I'm bad enough with, like, injections to begin with in my arm. I don't know what to make me. I mean, it just, it is interesting how performance-enhancing drugs that used to just be like, you know, professional wrestlers juice and steroids or, you know, Mark McGuire, they seem to get, like, as the rules to capture them become more aggressive. There's always some new frontier, you know. And this may be the final frontier, though. I can't think of one beyond this. Junk choosing. Yeah, usually the juice shrinks the junk. There was a Norwegian team that was caught, I think, tampering with their suits to fly farther. So there is some precedent here. I feel like we're all getting clickbaited, but it's just too fun not to talk about it. Or they're leaking this so that people think that they've got bigger junk. There you go. Yeah. I mean, that's why, you know. That's why both of us were recruited for ski jumping. There wasn't, did you see this, do you see this Norwegian athlete today? I can't say this guy's name. I'm not even going to try it. Oh, the guy who admitted his guilt? Yeah. Yeah, this dude, Sterla Holm-Lagrid. I don't know. It's one of those names where the two of the vowels are attached. Yeah. So he won the bronze and the 20 kilometer biathlon. Then he used his post-win interview to disclose that he cheated on his girlfriend and was heartbroken and wanted to get her back. Here's the quote. I told her a week ago and it's been the worst week of my life. I had a gold medal in life and there's probably a lot of people out there who look at me differently now, but I only have eyes for her. Sports has taken a bit of a backseat these past couple of days. Yeah, I wish I could share this with her. I'm not ready to give up. I hope that committing social suicide might show her how much I love her. Social suicide there. I think it's meaning like.

bearing his soul on Norwegian TV. That's one way to give a speech. Yeah, I mean, you know, it's interesting. These athletes, this is like the one moment, you know, every, you know, maybe in their lives that they're going to have a camera pointed at them in a large audience. And some choose to like have political protests and this is a different choice. Yeah. But to me, that's what it reinforces. Like what do you say if you get one shot to make some announcement to the world? And I don't know. I'm curious if there's any follow-up on this story, because I don't know if... Yeah. Yeah. This is like the Will Smith slap of Olympic speeches. Also, dude, you won the fucking bronze. You know what I mean? You're stealing the shine. This woman must be so pissed. She's like, you're air now. Yeah, now you're embarrassed. It's like the Reynolds pamphlet in Hamilton. Now I sound like a total lib. But you're just just kind of humiliating this woman all over again in front of the whole world. I don't know. It seems like weird judgment. I will say, I love that event. And when I, like, you know, the idea that you're going to ski and shoot things and, you know, so that's the Winter Olympics. That's the kind of stuff I like, these kind of sports that make no sense. Is that one of the ones where you like, you cross-country ski? Isn't it? And then you're like, hard as exploding. Then you lay down. You have to like shoot it at. I think that's what it is. I mean, I could be wrong, but I think that's what it is. Yeah. Yeah. And I love that sport because, like. Who invented that, like some Finns fighting off the Russians or something? That's exactly right. Yeah, it's like dudes up in Finland battling Soviet troops and the trees in World War I. Yeah, no, we should make this a sport, you know. You're like, Yergen's really good, you know. Yergan. Oh, man. Yeah, I love the Olympics too, man. It's fun when you're like with a group, you know, the kind of like nationalism, the juices get flown. You get a good USA, USA chant going. It does just suck. Like these poor athletes are being asked. They're up. They're doing press conferences because they have to. They're getting asked political questions. They're trying to offer like really measured responses. And then the president of the United States fucking unloads on you probably because he saw a tweet from Jake Paul or something. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What are we doing? Come on. I mean. Jesus. It's just like everyone's just got to be mad about fewer things. Like I'll vote for a presidential candidate that promises to like not tweet about the halftime show at the Super Bowl, to ban gender reveals, just like a couple, like just to shut up.

after like 8 p.m., you know, like, no, like, white nationalist videos about the Obamas where you, like, turn them into monkeys. Like, how about that? That's, like, all I'm asking for. Well, I had to tell you, Tommy, like, got me thinking about, I mean, I thought this before, too, but we've got the Olympics here in L.A. in two years, and Trump is going to be the fucking president. Yep. And that thing is going to be a nightmare because he's going to be, like, on his way out, Mad King, you know, Rosebud moment for Citizen Kane. Like, like... What should be a really exciting thing to have the Olympics coming to Los Angeles, I have this foreboding about, you know. I do too. Yes. I mean, he's got the World Cup and then he has the Olympics. You know that like that asshole is going to like crash the podium when some American wins a gold medal and just like stand up there and like take it from them and assume that he actually won the 100 meter or whatever like Maria Maria Corina Machado them. He'll be in a war like a Twitter war with a men's basketball team the entire time or something. Yeah. We'll bomb Canada halfway through it. Yeah. And that's not uplifting clothes. Well, look, I love the Olympics. Yes. Very fun talking with you from all the way over here. I will not be on the show next week because I don't even remember why the logistics. We're flying back that day or something. But Ben's got a great guest host lined up for you. Do you want to announce it now or are you guys holding that? Yeah, we're going to miss you, Tommy, but we've got a great guest host. I'm in Moyal Dean, who you know I'm in. Just unbelievably smart about the world, about the Middle East in particular. I'm sure we're going to be able to cover a lot of that ground. So we'll miss you, but I'm going to be here. And, yeah, I mean, I'll be in Munich this week for the Munich Security Conference. So I will be bringing some Euro gossip back with me to the world those. I think I'm going to, like, substack through this Munich Security Conference, you know, impressions. I love it. I love it. I was actually what's happening with a German lawmaker who is the one who is interviewing Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. at the media security forums. She's all pumped and it'll be great. I'm glad you're doing that. By the way, you give Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez some props. I don't know if you saw her like she she's been throwing haymakers. So she stood up for the Cuban people. I know if you saw her like pointing out. No. She basically point out the, the unbelievable humanitarian crisis that we are creating. You know, whatever you think of the Cuban government, why is it normal that we're just like starving? people to death, collectively punishing these people as part of this kind of regime change strategy. She took a massive whack at APEC after that New Jersey race. So I like this Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez moving into our space. She's usually been domestic. I like World O Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.

She's great. She's really smart. She's one of the best speakers we got in the party. All right. Well, that's it for the news portion of the show. Thank you guys for listening. Thank you for enduring this time change. But stick around after the break. You're going to hear Ben's interview with Neela Tabrizzi about getting laid off from the Washington Post, like what that experience was like, what we're all missing out on now that the Washington Post is, you know, no foreign news coverage. So very important conversation. Don't miss it. Pod Save the World is brought to you by three-day blinds. If you're one of those people that needs to sleep in complete darkness, that is me. But your blinds always allow light in at the crack of dawn. You need three-day blinds. They are the leading manufacturer of high-quality custom window treatments in the U.S. And right now, if you use my URL, three-day blinds.com slash world, they're running a buy one, get one 50% off deal. We can shop for almost anything at home. Why not shop for blinds at home, too? Three-day blinds as local, professionally trained design consultants who have an average of 10 or more years of experience that provide expert guidance on the right blinds for you and the comfort of your home. Just set up an appointment and you'll get a free, no-obligation quote on the same day. Not very handy. DIY projects can be fun, but measuring and installing blinds can be a big challenge. The expert team at three-day blinds handles all the heavy lifting. They design, measure, and install so you can sit back, relax, and leave it to the pros. I can't even imagine trying to install blinds myself. Three-day blinds is great. We have it here at the office in all of our rooms. They work perfectly. We've had them for years. Nothing's broken. Not even been updated. They work well. And I don't know. Highly recommend it. Three-day blinds has been in business for 45 years, and they have helped over 2 million people get the window treatments of their dreams, so they're a brand you can trust. Right now, get-quality window treatments that fit your budget with three-day blinds. Head to three-day blinds.com slash world for their buy one, get-one, 50% off deal on custom blinds, shades, shutters, and drapery. For a free, no charge, no obligation consultation, just head to three-dayblinds.com slash world. One last time, that's buy one, get one, 50% off when you head to the number three. d-a-y blinds.com slash world.

Okay, I'm very pleased to welcome back to Pottae the World investigative reporter and author Nilo Tabrizzi. She's also co-author of the book For the Sun After Long Nights, the story of Iran's women-led uprising, which we've recommended it before, but truly, especially given what's going on Iran, everybody should pick it up. But Nilo, so good to see you. Thanks for joining us. Yeah, great to see you. Okay, so let's just start with the big event in your life, which is you were part of the massive layoffs at the Washington Post. Sorry, we're sorry for you for that, and we're sorry for the world for not getting the reporting of you and your colleagues. I mean, to just begin, I guess there was some sense something was coming. Were you still shocked by the... that this happened to you at the scale of this, kind of describe the lead-in to that event? Yes, so while I was reporting on a story about a massacre in Rush in Iran, that's when I started hearing about... these big layoffs that were coming. This was, you know, two and a half weeks ago, three weeks ago. We heard they were coming. We started to hear rumors. And we had heard at first that, you know, management went to the head of the international desk and let them know that they were shutting down, you know, the Middle East team, nearly all of the foreign bureaus would be shut down. And we had heard that Peter Finn, who's the head of international, who's been a mentor to so many at the post, that he said, I'd rather be laid off than be a part of this plan. And so that started to trickle down. So we started to put the pieces together just with people talking in the newsroom. And we learned, you know, that sports likely was going to get cut. International was going to get cut. But everything that happened was so much more severe than any of us prepared for. I mean, I was on the investigations desk. This was not a desk that was supposed to be cut or any of the rumors that we were hearing. And we lost a good number of people on my desk as well. So how does this happen? I mean, so there's just, just practically speaking, you're all called on to some Zoom and they announced these layoffs and then you were packing up your desk. I mean, is it, was it just a sense of the rug being pulled out from under you? And how did they, how did the person who did this explain why they were doing this? Yes, so the run-up to the lead-off was really shocking. So I had my last story published in the newspaper on a Tuesday. It was about the build-up of vessels and aircraft in the Persian Gulf. So we're in a really precarious time. We get an email that evening that everyone has to be on a Zoom at 8.30 in the morning, Wednesday morning, and we are told not to come into the building and that there's going to be a significant restructuring and refocusing. And so all of these set off alarm bells, early Zoom, not being told to come into the building. And the way it was presented to us, it was a 30-minute Zoom call where Matt Murray, our executive editor, said that there had to be a significant reshuffling of the post.

still unclear. Even when I think about that call, I don't really understand the vision or what they're trying to do. And then our HR rep came and we were told after this meeting, you're going to get an email from us that will let you know if your position is eliminated or retained. And I was one of the more than 300 people that got an eliminated email. And this is, you know, layoffs, unfortunately, are part of our business, right? This has happened. I was laid off from Vice 10 years ago. And it really pains me to say the way I was laid off from Vice was so much more humane than what I just, when I experienced at the post, because at Vice we were called in, it was also a mass layoff. Our entire team was laid off. But I had the opportunity to, you know, look at who was laying me off and actually be able to speak and have a conversation. But we got these cold emails. And there was people that have been there for 27 plus years of service that were also laid off in this subject line email. So it was really, yeah, it was a. It has felt completely destabilizing and has been very ungrounding. And it's, I'm lucky, you know, I'm a U.S.-based employee. I'm a member of the Post Guild. So, you know, I have some type of protections and things like that. And I have the safety of the guild. But I'm really concerned for people who don't, people who are international staff that are not U.S.-based employees, contractors, translators, drivers, all of this different local staff that supports are reporting. I mean, this is something that's being felt for so many people. And also, it's a horrible look in the industry. You know, other companies can look at this and decide that they may want to follow suit. Well, what's the, yeah, I mean, give us a sense of the scale of what was lost in terms of foreign coverage. That's obviously what. people come to this podcast for what is being lost with those bureaus, both in terms of the reporting and the ability to get stories and communicate what's actually happening in places around the world. And also, like you said, I imagine the ripple effects are beyond the people laid off. It's the local fixers and it's the local stringers that may be not show up on the balance sheet, but if the... If the farm desk is gone, that's probably, you know, hundreds of other people that are gone too, right? Yes, we're still trying to understand that exactly how many people are affected. But this is a huge loss for our industry, for people who read our paper. I mean, so many important policymakers read the Washington Post. And so I think the ripple effects will be, you know, will be felt all over. So they cut the entire Middle East team. They cut the Ukraine team. So we had two, we had reporters that were there. We had Franceschi Abel that was based in Russia. She was our Russia course. She was also cut. I like names that for me were the byline definers of the Washington Post were no longer there. Like I had come to the Washington Post from the New York Times because I loved the coverage of the post. And I loved, you know, Louisa Lovelock, Love Day Morris, Kareemu. Like I could go on people that have really inspired me. And we are all, you know, worse off not being able to read this reporting. And even right now, I mean, the area that I specialize in covering Iran, it's a really

confusing moment, right? This is a story that is really important. It's in flux. You know, even the last story that I did about Iran was our extremely high traffic driver to our paper is a really high red well-circulated story. And we're still in the middle of what's going on there. And so for me, there's people that took the risk to speak with me for work that I have to hit pause on right now. And that's something really difficult to tend with. Yeah, actually. I want to ask you about that because, you know, yes, people might think this is terrible. There's just, there's already been a consolidation of a lot of farm bureaus, right? Like the LA Times used to have them, you know, the Baltimore Sun used to have them, right? Now it's basically the New York Times has them in the Wall Street Journal. But to your point, I read the Washington Post when I was in the White House. It was like I read an intelligence report. You know, like it taught me something that was going on. Or your book, which, you know, kind of grew out of, I'm sure, reporting you're doing at the paper, one of the reasons people should read it, what's so extraordinary about is, like, you see these protests in Iran, but you don't really know what's going on there. Or even people, you know Iranian Americans and maybe they can talk to their family, but you found... literal journalists who would collaborate with you, take risks on the ground to get this story. And I read this, you're reporting in your book. And I'm like, well, I understand this movement, the Women's Life Freedom Movement. you know, much, much better with much greater nuance and understanding and motivation than I would just kind of formulating an opinion based on what people have an X, you know? Like, and so what, what do you think the textures of our ability at a time when things are so complicated around the world? How much are we losing with these kinds of layoffs? I mean... I don't even think we'll be able to grasp that until some real consequences come out from the fallout of this really, you know, short-sighted and horrific decision. I mean, for example, if we just look at Iran reporting, right, that's mostly what I was doing at visual forensics. My colleague, Yagan, was the Iran Bureau, was the, yeah, our Iran correspondent based in Turkey. She too was laid off. So both of us were laid off during this incredibly pivotal moment of reporting, right? I mean, over 6,000, close to 7,000 confirmed deaths of... protesters in Iran that were killed in this latest uprising. This number will continue to climb. We're still trying to understand more about people who were killed, what the future of the Islamic Republic looks like. This is a really tenuous moment for Iran. And we don't have anyone there, right? We haven't had anyone based in the country since my colleague, Jason Rosian, was unjustly imprisoned. And it was his 10-year anniversary of being released from Evian prison. And so we've had to figure out creative ways to do journalism from afar and do important and accountability-based reports. So what that's looked like for me in the context of reporting on Iran over the past month has been verifying extremely grim visuals and being able to take in all of these videos we're seeing from eyewitnesses and actually put together a story or a piece of analysis or an investigation from that. And I'm really crushed that our audience is going to miss out on that. And as well, policymakers who are reading our paper and trying to understand more about what's going on, they don't have access to that anymore. And there's just fewer and fewer.

are places that do this really important work and foreign work on Iran and other countries. Like the pool is shrinking. And healthy competition is really great for reporters. There's a camaraderie among reporters. And there's also, oh, shoot, I wish I should have could have gotten this story. And there's like a really important dynamic that is there. And once you cut that all off and it's just one or two news organizations that robustly cover an area, I mean, everyone loses in that. And that's really, really disappointing. Yeah, I always felt like when I was in the White House, the Times Post journal competition was very useful because they kind of push each other. Well, look, I mean, the elephant in the room here is Jeff Bezos, and we don't know what's in Jeff Bezos's head. What we do know that it's indeniable is that whether, you know, some years the Post was turning a revenue, some years it was losing money, but, you know, couch cushioned money for Jeff Bezos. So what is that? I mean, it's one thing, you would almost understand it more if it was like some. family-run newspaper that, you know, survived on the revenue, and you could then tell yourself, well, these people, like, literally can't afford it. Jeff Bezos literally could afford to lose, you know, a billion dollars a year running a newspaper. What is your... both your what is that like to know that there's someone who could have kept these positions and chose not to and does anybody have any indication as to why that might be i you know we clearly changed the opinion section to suit trump but i don't know why you have to eliminate foreign coverage unless maybe maybe he doesn't want people to know what's going on in places like iran i don't know Yeah, I mean, I wish I had an answer. I mean, I think that's why really important media reporting is crucial in this moment. I've been waiting to see, we have fantastic media reporters at the Washington Post, and I'm having to read about what happened in my own newsroom from competitors. And so that's also something that's really alarming. But I mean, yeah, you're right. It's poor leadership. It is really hard to know. It's just really hard to contend with the fact that someone who does own our paper could fund it, right? I mean, that's been brought up several times. But also the leadership that has been in place has just not been sufficient. You know, our, you know, Will Lewis, who was our publisher, those recently left. I mean, he came to the newsroom once in his tenure. He made one speech to the newsroom. And generally, many of us didn't feel that he was very engaged beyond that. Not exactly Marty Barron, you know, who, yeah. No, I mean, and that's, you know, the culture of the post. It's a really, really special place. Like when I, it's the newsroom that everyone collaborates with each other. And even like there really isn't desk, desk on desk trying to out scoop each other. Everyone's working with each other. And that's a really defining feature of the post. And I think that this has really been harmed by this action. And if the, I'm trying to, again, read the tea leaves as much as you are, even though I was employed there.

I'm trying to understand the strategy. Part of the strategy I'm hearing is, oh, we want to focus on national security. Well, your national security desk is only as good as your foreign desk, right? Because it's collaborative. And our foreign reporters will report out storylines, collaborate with the national security desk and do incredible robust reporting. So I just feel like this was, yeah, it's hard to make sense of this decision because it feels completely irrational. Well, I want to ask you about this. And maybe this relates to what I mean, I also want to ask you what you're. maybe too early, but if you have thought about what you're going to do, but the point you're making is so important. I want to emphasize it. Sure, you keep the Washington reporters who are reporting on national security, i.e. they're calling people like me in my old job or, you know, they're getting in the intelligence community. I'm not diminishing that. That's really important. But I used to sometimes, I could feel like, because I was there during a period of media consolidation, and I used to find it was interesting that I would have Washington-based reporters calling me to ask me what was going on in Egypt, you know? And I'd be like, why don't you call someone in Egypt? I can tell you what we think is going on, but that is such a... wrong way at looking at the world, right? I mean, if you only look at Iran, the country you focused on from the perspective of Washington, it's about our interests, it's about our politics, it's about, you know, it's not about people in Iran or even the leadership of Iran, right? So what do you, where do you, the question I want to ask is I'm sure you agree with the premise is where is that kind of reporting going to go? Because increasingly there are these kind of independent journalists who are like doing pretty extraordinary stuff online by themselves, but they don't have the infrastructure of a newsroom. There's the smaller giant, or not smaller, there's a smaller number of giant organizations like the Times of BBC. There's TikTok, you know, and just, you know, someone in Iran uploading a video that, you know, we can watch. I mean, how do you think we're going to get that non-Washington story about the world? I think there are fewer and fewer places that we're going to get that from, right? Like you said it yourself. I mean, the Times is reporting robustly and like looking at foreign stories, so is the BBC. But that's kind of... it now. And doing this type of work is really, like, it is a team effort, right? Because, you know, I'm verifying a video. I'm interviewing eyewitnesses. I'm writing the story. Well, every story that I've worked on has been made better by the people a part of it and by the editors who are a part of it. And many international editors who were also mentors were let go. And so, and also, you know, you need, you need safety and infrastructure to do this work responsibly, right? You don't want to just. send people into the middle of conflict zones without any training or any type of safety. I mean, that's really dangerous. So this, you know, unfortunately just limits our access to information and makes it really dangerous for people who want to pursue this, you know, individually.

And do you have any sense of what's your next chapter is or is still digesting this, I'm sure? My Oprah's next chapter. I still, you know, the one bright part of this is that people have been so incredibly kind. Like people that I admire, companies that I love have reached out and I've been having great conversations with people. I'm also conscious of the fact that I've been going. really full speed for the past year. So I do, you know, I do want to continue my investigative work. I want to keep reporting on Iran. I still want to do open source work. There are fewer and fewer open source teams, too, to do this type of work. But yeah, no, I have some, some ideas, but nothing's set yet. And last thing, I mean, since I have you, just what is your impression of what's happening in Iran? I mean, we know kind of the machinations here, but kind of building on our conversation, do you have any sense of the mood in Iran at this kind of tenuous point where the protests have kind of generally been quashed? They may be bombed. They may not be. What's your read on the mood there? Yes, I mean, I can say confidently, you know, there's been a little bit more internet access the past few weeks, which is nice. So I've been able to communicate with sources more. I have never encountered people with such across the board like. just deep trauma that people are living in. I've interviewed people on their worst days, but this is just awful. Everyone that I speak with that I speak with just says, like, they can't even form thoughts. You know, one of my sources who's incredibly chatty said, next time we talk, maybe I should come up with a list of things I need to talk with you about because my brain can't process or bring in information. Or another source of mindset, it was the first snow in Tehran a few weeks ago and you could still see blood underneath the snow. Like it's, people are now living in this just, yeah, just like completely unprocessed trauma of the massacres that they have witnessed and have happened to their their friends and loved ones. Everyone that I know, every source that I know knows at least one or two people who've been killed. And that's just like it's extremely difficult to process that. So and everyone that I've talked to has extreme anxiety. They say, you know, we're waiting to be bombed at this point. Do you think it's going to happen or do you think it's not? And the other thing that's really difficult is this. this protest moment sparked out of a currency devaluation, right? But the shut off of the internet and everything that happened in the last month, I mean, the job situation is even worse. It's not like the currency has leveled out. It's continuing. So by the government just shutting off the internet, while a lot of people rely on the internet for their job and their livelihood, and that door has been, you know, really shut to people. So it's really, it's grim. It's a population of people who are in deep trauma and grieving and feel increasingly stuck. and are waiting to see whether or not they're going to be hit with airstrikes. Well, those are the kind of stories we need to hear. Nilo, where can people follow you in the meantime? Are you kind of going to be on a social media cleanse? No, you can follow me on X at N. Tabrizzi. Okay. Well, look, I'm so sorry about what happened to you and your colleagues on a personal level, but also just kind of a reader level, you know, and...

My hope is that you will find a way to do the kind of reporting you're doing and the evolving iteration of a media that doesn't just become so inward looking. But if people want more, I really encourage people to pick up for the sun after long nights. You will meet extraordinary people. You will see a protest movement from the ground up. You will understand Iran better. much better by reading that book. It's kind of a classic, actually, of a different kind of reporting that I'd seen, which is you collaborating with people on the ground. So thanks for that. And thanks for joining us to talk about what I'm sure has been not so great a week for you. Awesome. Yeah, it's great to chat with you anytime. Thank you so much. Great. Thanks. Thanks again, Enilo, for doing the show. I guess I won't see you next week. Safe travels, yeah. It hurts my... Yeah, it's crazy, man. Well, I'm safe. I mean, you'll be safe in Australia and New Zealand. Fun travels. We'll be safe. Yeah, yeah. Fun travels. Brisbane, Melbourne, Sydney. I had a great night out in Brisbane at the G20. Nice. Kind of one of these epic Cody Keenan nights. Oh, yeah. I know. Saw the sunrise, my friend. Awesome. All right, guys. Talk soon. See it.

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