Bruce the Theologian joins Elijah

From the spacious KWTO Studios, it's the Elijah Harshow, 93am 560 KWTO. Welcome back to K WTO on a beautiful Tuesday afternoon. We're going to switch it up a little bit. In fact, I kind of want to do the new intro music because we've got Bruce the Theologian who usually comes at a 435, but we kick it off the show today because of some scheduling issues. Let's lay the groundwork because I've been excited for this interview for a while. A few days ago, the Pentagon. updated its list of verified religious affiliation for service members used in the personnel system. And they removed the Christian designation from certain faiths. So what that is, they shared a list online, formalized 31 religious categories that service members could identify as, 21 of which they identified as variations of Christianity. The Mormon Church or the Church of Jesus Christ, Father Saints, was not identified as Christian. Obviously, there's been a lot of angst from those who are Mormon, and I believe as of last night, the Pentagon has updated their list. Now, there's been a whole lot of discussion on social media about our Mormons, a variation of the Christian religion. So, Bruce, you're the theologian, are Mormons Christians? Well, I think it's an interesting start to things after this decision was made. It was Representative Mike Robert F. Kennedy Jr. and Mike Lee both. gave statements, I think it was on Twitter or some public statements that they were very upset about this. I think the downside of the statements that they made weren't theological statements. They were just more statements of outrage or they weren't logical statements. They were just, we don't like this, but didn't exactly say why they didn't like it other than they were offended that they, as Mormons would like to be included in the broader Christian fellowship. But no, like I said, I'm not here to critique Mormonism, but I would say I could give an explanation of why that Mormons, because of their belief system, are to be found outside traditional Christian understanding. So my understanding, correct me from wrong, there's essentially there's the Orthodox Church, the Catholic Church, and the Protestant Church. Those are the three. And then under each one, obviously, you've got a variety of denominations in ways they practice. But those are essentially the three groups of faith that are considered Christian. Right. And I think Mormons would want to be considered a denomination within the broader Christian community. So separate from those, they wouldn't want to be under Protestants? Their views are very mixed. So I don't know how they would attempt to classify themselves. So they would be a... Fourth variation. Yeah, maybe a fourth variation or maybe they would try and claim Protestantism, but they would violate too many. There would just be too many violations there. But whether Catholic or Protestant, the Mormons would violate some of the several of the historic creeds, the Nicene Creed, the Athenation Creed.

The Apostles' Creed, these are all creeds from the early church, the early 30000s and 400s. They would violate that with regards to the Trinity because Mormons believe that they don't believe in one God. And all three of those creeds I mentioned mention, you know, being one God. They believe in three separate gods and that God himself was once a man who matured into a form of godhood. which is obviously a violation of kind of basic Christian thinking. I mean, we can go back to the origin story with Joseph Smith in the 1820s. He believed he had visions or visions throughout the 1820s and 30s. It's interesting that other American faiths were founded during that time. The Christian science movement, Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh-day Adventism, and Mormonism were all founded in the 1820s and 30s in the northeast of the United States after the ministry of Charles Finney had run its core. us through the Second Great Awakening. So it's interesting that those four movements were birthed out of Charles, the end of Charles Finney's. It is interesting because those four have very different viewpoints from each other. They do. They do. But Mormonism is interested in that it has its book of Mormon. Real quick, before we go back to Mormonism, would you consider any of those other Christian faiths? They wouldn't be considered a part because they, like I said, they would violate the creeds. Okay. Yeah. Now, there is a, there is, on Seventh-day Adventism, the view is softened on that over the years, it being considered kind of an idiosyncratic version of the Christian faith. Different theologians would have different views on that. The Seventh-day Adventists believe that the Bible should be interpreted through the work of... Um, forgotten her name now, Ellen G. White. Um, so anytime one is interpreting the Bible through the lens of a single individual is very concerning. It would be kind of considered cult-like. Um, but Mormons do have, you know, they have the book of Mormon. They have the doctrine and creeds. They have the pearl of great price. And they believe the King James version of the Bible is authoritative. So they do have those kind of four texts. So they do use a, a, a. the King James Bible. Interesting. I didn't know that you did that. And that would have been the Bible that would have been available during Joseph Smith's life and times. But Mormons believe that Christianity was corrupted. They believe that people can be baptized into heaven. Many years ago, the Mormons got in trouble with the... with some Jewish groups because they were taking the lists from the Holocaust, the Nazi list from the Holocaust, and were baptizing by proxy people from the list of the Holocaust. So they would go down into the pool in the temple and would look up and on the screen, there would be the name of a Holocaust... victim, and then they would, I guess, pronounce that and then try and baptize them into heaven. They have three levels of heaven, which obviously can't be found in the Christian scriptures. What are the three levels? They have the terrestrial, or sorry, forgive me, the celestial kingdom, which is the lowest version of heaven. There's the terrestrial kingdom, which is for those who have lived a good life, but are not Mormons themselves. And then there's the celestial kingdom. That's for observant Mormons that can eventually inside that celestial kingdom become their own God.

populate their own planet with a wife in this eternal state. Obviously, you know, Jesus talks about how that in the resurrection, there won't be, people won't be given to marriage. He mentions that to the Sadducees when they try and trick him on a question there. So yeah, those are all views very much outside of the Christian faith. I think one of the other ones is it is a workspace righteous system. And there's not the only faith that has a workspace system to merit things in eternity. But, I mean, well, I'll read a brief passage here from 2nd Nephi. This is the book of Mormon. 2nd Nephi 2523, for we know that it is by grace that we are saved after all we can do. So they... Well, there's a total change from... Right. Well, for the script, the inerrant scripture of the Christian church would be Ephesians 289, for by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not your own doing, it is a gift of God, not as a result of works, so that no man may boast. So, yeah, there's a contrast. There's an elements of Christian thinking in that first line of Nephi, but then it changes. by saying after all we can do. So, you know, Christians don't believe that. And that's one of the reasons that, one of many reasons, that the Mormon faith wouldn't be considered inside the Christian world. Explain the angst then. I looked up a couple of these. You know, there's quite a few. There's quotes from Joseph Smith saying that the LDS Church is the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth. Brigham Young, same thing. Should you ask why we differ from other Christians? It's simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity. Of course, they're a New Testament. The Christian world so-called are heathens as the knowledge of salvation God. Like, Brigham Young and Joseph Smith, and I don't know the difference between them. They both basically were like, nobody else is Christians except us. Right. After, after, um... Joseph Smith died in this area of the country in the Midwest. It was Brigham Young that went to Utah and founded the whole setup in Utah. And there's a group of Mormons that actually don't believe that the work of Brigham Young is correct. And those are known as Reformed Mormons, believe it or? It's a small group. But they don't believe in the whole Salt Lake City thing. They're not on board with that. So I guess my question is, if Mormons don't think other Christians are Christians, Why are they bent out of shape when they're essentially, it seems like they'd want to be separate anyway. Yeah, you're right. I think being part of the broader Christian world would give them credibility. It would help them tie things together. But I think, yeah, the biggest thing would be credibility. They see, you know.

They would like to have a brotherhood with maybe be Catholic believers or Protestant believers. But like I said, and we're not here to critique the Mormon faith. We're here trying to understand why, at least until yesterday, the Pentagon think it wasn't part of the Christian world. We don't know exactly who made that decision because they didn't say, I don't know if they consulted with theologians that said, hey, we figured this. And I don't know because I know that the spokesman for the Pentagon is a guy named Sean Parnell, who is a pretty big. candidate for office in Pennsylvania. I don't know if the Secretary of War has any involvement in this, but as most people know, Pete Hegseth is, I think you use the word off-air, a very zealous Christian. He is, he actually has had Doug Wilson, if you know, Doug Wilson is somewhat controversial figure in the... religion, Christian faith, he's had him come and speak at the, either at the Pentagon or to truth. Yeah, yeah, I saw that. Yeah, and so I can't help but think that this would probably emanate from the office of Pete Hegseth. I mean, it seems like this is something he'd be like, listen, we got to fix this thing. Right. And it's interesting that the turnaround was pretty swift after Mike Lee and Mike Robert F. Kennedy Jr., you know, said otherwise. Yeah. And there wasn't a, as far as I know, there hasn't been a, um, a theological explanation why there's been a turn of or change of heart over there at the Pentagon with regards to this. Now, and what's really interesting, I think that the point of all of this that I find the most interesting is that, or I shouldn't say most interesting, Mormons historically have been very Republican. They're very socially conservative. I don't want to paint too broad a brush, but they're They have financially as a religion done well, and they donate a lot of money. And so it's one of those situations where I'm imagining somebody in a political position is like, whoa, we can't offend the donors. Right. We have to fix this. That's a good point. That's a good point. Yeah, I mean, I don't know all the inside have all the inside knowledge. But yeah, Mormons have been very successful in business, in entertainment. The, you know, the series, The Chosen, that's funded by the, inadvertently, it's funded by the Mormon Church. I didn't know that. I didn't know that. Does it have Mormon theology? I don't think, I've never seen it. I've watched a few episodes. I've not watched a lot. I've never seen the series. I understand the producers of the kind of the brainchild behind it as a Mormon group. Interesting. They've been successful in politics. Think of, was it, Orrin Hatch? Yeah, Mitt Romney. Harry Reid, I believe, was a Mormon, I think. Yeah, he was. Mitt Romney ran for president. And obviously Mike Lee now. Yeah, Mike Lee. Yeah. And in industry, there's been CEOs of Fortune 500 companies have been Mormons. Yeah. So yeah, they definitely have a presence in American society, but it is an American... Let's not call it an invention. Let's call it an American, a religious revelation that Smith claims. There's Christian components to it, but unfortunately, too many of the components violate traditional, established Christian thinking. I mentioned the three creeds, you know, but saying that God was a man that has a physical body. That's outside of that. There's a quote here from Joseph Smith. God himself was once a man as we are now as...

is now, forgive me, I've messed this quote, God himself was once a man as we are, now as is now an exalted man. Forgive me if I've messed that up. But basically, God was a man that became God. But that, like I said, would violate so much of scripture. It violates Genesis across the board. I assume that they're not referencing Jesus there. Well, they believe Jesus is... They don't believe Jesus is part of the Godhead because they believe a Jesus is a different God. And they, am I wrong on this? I read somewhere that they believe that Jesus and Satan were brothers at one point. They do, but that's disputed. The other thing is disputed, it's there, but it's disputed. They believe there were spirit beings together, like there was a familial spirit being. But the, I will say, the advantage that Mormons have is they believe in continuing revelation. So one prophet can change. the theology of the church. This came up during the presidential conversations when Mitt Romney ran because in the 1970s, black people could not go into a Mormon temple because black skin was considered a sign of the devil. So, I mean, that's something that obviously Mitt Romney had to wrestle with to explain that. I forget how that all came about. But that's where the Mormon theology has changed, but it can, it is a changeable theology because their prophets can tweak their theology. Very good. Well, Bruce, this has been incredibly edifying. Obviously, you know, the Pentagon has since revised this. They've allowed them to be considered Christian. But I appreciate the information because, again, I'm certainly not as familiar with the faith as you are. Well, I'm still learning, so. All right. We'll be right back. Lots more to go. We've got to talk about the Carmelo Anthony verdict down in Texas. We'll talk about Donald Trump and the latest there. But we're right back. I'm Elijah Har on KWTO.