Santas Like Me provide diverse representation. Federal recognition for the Lumbee Tribe

This is due south on WUNC. I'm Jeff Tabiri. Amidst the chaos and dysfunction of Congress, something major happened last week. The Lumby tribe was granted full federal recognition. This is something that is just so exciting for my people, but also it is the writing of a wrong. Details on the end of a 137-year fight ahead. Then Christmas is just around the corner, which means Santa Claus is coming to town. We'll hear from the organization that casts Santas of color for events and holiday gatherings. I am amazed at the tears that come when somebody turns the corner and sees Santa sitting there and he looks just like me. Doos South begins after the news. The following is a Due South Encore presentation. The conversation originally aired on December 6, 2023. From the American Tobacco Historic District in downtown Durham, this is Due South on WUNC. I'm Leonita Inge. I produced a story a couple of years ago that I just can't forget. I talked with the founder of a company called Santas Just Like Me, based in North Carolina. Stafford Braxton worked to bring representation to Christmas by featuring Santas of color at malls and holiday celebrations, and that effort has come with the cost. What about the clapback, the backlash? I'm going to be very straight up with you when we were inside there waiting to get permission to come out here. There was a mother and her child who came in and asked when the white Santa was coming. And she said, I don't have a problem with this, but my husband wouldn't like those pictures. That was a clip from a short documentary that just came out this month called American Santa. In the doc, there are images of smiling kids on Santa's lap, and also frank conversations about racism that pushed to the surface when Stafford Braxton, the founder of Santa's Just Like Me, began this journey. Oh my gosh, I don't even know the term I want to use for it, but they were vehement in their disagreement. of a black man portraying Santa. And they said some of the vilest things. I have been called the N-word more in the last 11 years than I did my entire 50 years growing up prior to when I lived in the South, when I'm still living in the South, but growing up in the South. And so it was just sometimes just heart-wrenching when you hear what the kids are saying. And part of the documentary you'll see. when you watch it where I just get choked up because the thought of our kids spewing this hatred that they've learned from somewhere was just so disheartening that I got choked up at that moment.

When I spoke with Stafford, I'll be honest, I didn't even know about the documentary until right before the interview. I just wanted to check in with him because his story was fascinating. And I wanted to know what he remembers about Santa Claus growing up. To be honest, I don't remember ever visiting Santa. when I was younger, whether it was a white Santa, black Santa. Santa was just not something that was done in my household, you know, to the point where we went and visited it. Now, I remember my family closing me off in my bedroom so I couldn't see Santa putting out the gifts. So I was aware of Santa, but I just never visited him. And then you ended up later as an adult actually working at a mall where you would help set up for children and families to come and see Santa. One of the many hats that I have worn over the years is that I've been a professional photographer for 40 years. And when I moved from Virginia to North Carolina, I was trying to reestablish the business that I had in Virginia. And so I saw an ad in Craigslist for a photographer at Crabtree Valley Mall to take photos with Santa. And I was an assistant manager of the first year. The second year was a manager. And then he... I think it was like maybe two or three years later, I became a district manager where I would actually go from city to city and actually set up venues for Santa Claus and then hire and train and all that good stuff. So I learned the business, you know, from the inside out and I learned it well. But then something remarkable sort of happened. Families were coming up to you asking for a Black Santa. Yes, and that was on a regular. I mean, it was not just one or two. It was quite a few. As a result of that, I approached the mall management about, you know, doing a Black Santa event. And I felt like they just tapped me on the head and said, that's a good idea. But they had no intention of doing anything. But it led me to start seeking out of Santa to where I could provide the service. I just saw this as an opportunity to meet that need of representation in the minority community because in this area where I was living at the time, it wasn't available. So in making this a reality for you and even a whole business, how did you actually do it? Did you just start stopping men in the street if they had a white beard or if they had a, I don't know, a big belly, or maybe they were a fit, cool Santa but had to have the beard? What were you looking for? That's what I do now. But when I found the first guy, the way it started, I was working at the Santa set.

and a coworker tapped me on the shoulder to say, Stanford, doesn't that guy look like a black Santa? Because, of course, I was talking to my coworkers about it. And so I had my business cards with me. I ran off the set. I handed him a card, and I said, look, I'm not trying to be offensive. And he said, what? Well, he was looking at me pretty intently. And I said, if you're interested in being Santa next year, give me a call in January, and let's discuss it. and went back to the set, kept photographing. January came and went, never heard from him. So I started, you know, I put an ad in Craig's list, trying to find a Santa. Because I wanted a natural beard of Santa. That was a must-have for me. Fake beards just looked too fake, and I did not want to perpetuate that image. And so I couldn't find anybody. And I actually ended up doing a wedding in May. the following year. And at the wedding, I was one of two black people that were in attendance. I was the photographer. The other guy was a guest. And so a couple of weeks went by and I approached the groom. I said, hey, the guy that looked like Santa at your wedding, and he knew immediately who I was talking about. Do you know him or was he a friend of a guest? He says, no, I've known him for over 20 years. So I told him what I was trying to do. And he said, well, look, I'll pass along your information. And if he's interested, he'll call you. So we finally met. And as I'm sharing with him, my vision for Christian Santa, because I'm like, look, if it was not for Jesus, there would be no St. Nicholas. If there was no St. Nicholas, there would be no beginnings of Santa Claus. I said, we can have Christian Santas. And as I'm talking to him, he goes into his wallet, and he pulls out the business card that I had handed him the previous December. So he was, he wanted to be Santa, but maybe he thought maybe he couldn't be sent. He wasn't ready. You think? I just think he probably forgot, you know, just strange guy. I would think being Santa. I would think that's a big calling. It is. Because I guess you want to be. You know, once you put on that outfit, that red jacket, you know, those black boots and hat, you just want to be real. You don't want to be a fakes Santa. You want to give children what they want and what they expect during this time of year, right? That is correct. Santa is a 24 or 7 business. I know. You have to stay in character, don't you? Kind of. All the time, whether you're wearing the suit or not. And especially if the guys, if they don't shave their beards, and most of the guys that I work with don't. They leave their beard on year round. And so they are always Santa. Wow. Well, I'm speaking with Stafford Braxton, the founder of Santa's Just Like Me. And I like to know a little bit about the impact. You know, since now you've been able to hire a few Santas. And please tell me how many you actually have hired and found so far. But what are the families I'm telling you? The families are just so appreciative.

for what we're doing. And I think it's more important to the parents than the kids. The kids see the red suit and they are ready to just share their wishes. But of course, it's the parents who understand the importance of representation of seeing positive role models for their black and brown children. And they just, some parents come with tears. There was an event we were holding in the western of Charlotte. And the daughter and granddaughter had come to the event. We were holding it at a church. They came to the event earlier, and they posted the pictures. Well, the grandmother saw the pictures. And she made a beeline to where we were. And she came around the corner and she saw Black Santa. She started to cry because she had never seen. She was 72 at the time. She had never seen a Santa that looks like her. She started crying. I started crying. Santa was trying his best not to cry because the impact of her seeing that Santa was just so emotional for her that it gave that response. And it reminded me of why I started doing this. You know, I attended an event with Santa's, just like me, you know, a Santa that you definitely know. And because it was during the pandemic, you know, it had to be an outside event. So people had on mass. They were trying to distance themselves. But there were children and families of several nationalities, cultures, and backgrounds. You know, so I wonder, even though you started off making sure that. that families of color had Santas that look just like them. But do you find a lot of white families that also attend your events? I do. That was one of the things that really impacted me when we did the Santa event at Gastonia at Gastonia at East Ridge Mall because they had never had a black Santa there before. So we were a little bit, you know, a little concerned about. how things were going to play out. And we had a couple of things where, you know, people were on the second level throwing stuff down and it sounded like paper cups. Oh, like trash? Like they were like, that's not a real Santa, get him out of there, kind of. Right. Oh, my. Exactly. They did not approve. And they voiced that disapproval. We had, you know, people that were standing in line for 20 minutes because of where they were, they couldn't see that it was a black Santa. And after standing in line for 20 minutes and they finally came around the corner and saw that he was a Santa of color, they got out of the line. You know, and we had one woman say, well, we don't like that kind of Santa. So those are the things we had. But by and large, 98.5% of the people that came through, white, black, Asian, Hispanic, they stood in line and they came to see our Santa and had no issues. As a matter of fact, I was so taken aback when I saw old white southern men getting in line with their families to see Black Santa. I said, this is what I'm supposed to do.

When I come back, more from Stafford Braxton, founder of Santas just like me. And I'll also speak with two of the Black Santas who have worked with Stafford for years. Ho! Ho! Ho! It's going to be good. I'm Leonita Inge, and you're listening to Mike DeWine South. Welcome back to D-South on listeners-supported WUNC. I'm Jeff Tabiri. The Lumbee tribe, predominantly based in Robeson County, North Carolina, has sought federal recognition for more than 130 years. Last week, a moment that generations have sought finally arrived. I feel absolutely positively overwhelmed with jubilation and happiness at the news of my tribe, the Lumby tribe, finally getting full federal recognition. This is something that is just so exciting for my people, but also it is the writing of a wrong. That is Brittany Hunt, who grew up in Lumberton, which is in Robeson County, and today is a professor of education at Virginia Tech. She's been a guest on Due South, sharing her efforts to teach the teachers about Native history. And what a moment in North Carolina Native history this is for her and so many in the Lombie community. Later, we're going to hear from other previous guests on our program, experts in the field of Native health care, as well as the environment, two issues that the funding from full federal recognition could soon help to address. Let's first turn to Sarah Nagum of the Border Belt Independent, which is part of the assembly network. The Border Belt is a news outlet covering Robeson County and other areas that are part of the Lombie territory. Sarah Nagam, welcome to New South. Thank you for having me. I gather you've been covering the story for a while, and it has had many twists and turns. It wasn't necessarily a surprise that recognition happened like in the moment, but it has happened. How do you encapsulate your reaction to all of this, this monumental step? Yeah, I've been covering the Lombie Tribe for about four and a half years. And of course, they've been seeking full recognition a whole lot longer than that, as you said, more than 130 years, 137 actually. So, you know, it has been a very long time coming. And I think particularly over the past few years. They became more and more confident, cautiously optimistic. I believe Lumby Travel Chairman John Lowry used to describe it to me, you know, that or, you know, hopeful but realistic maybe, right? That it was going to happen each year and it didn't. And, you know, so every year it was kind of just disappointment for them. And this year, this year was different.

This was, as a reminder to listeners, an early promise from President Trump upon taking office for the second time. I want to focus on who this is going to impact and how. So if you can give us a sense of how many people are going to be touched by this federal recognition and in what notable ways. Right. So the Olympi tribe has about 60,000 members predominantly in Robeson, Scotland, Hoke, and Cumberland counties. What full federal recognition will mean for them is access to services through the Indian Health Service, which could be huge. You know, this is a region in North Carolina that doesn't have enough doctors, has very poor health outcomes in general compared to the rest of the state, particularly. Robeson and Scotland. So, you know, there will be lots of opportunities, money coming in for health services, education services. Tribal members will have access to scholarships to attend college that they didn't have access to before, which can be huge. And, you know, it's really about the tribe gaining sovereign rights, which, you know, at the end of the day is what it's all about. You note the 137-year battle. Why did this come to, this to me strikes, it strikes me as an, it's the intersection of policy and politics in some ways. Why now? Why did this happen now? Yeah, so I think to answer that question, you really have to go back 137 years, right? So the state of North Carolina recognized the tribe, then called the Croatan Indians of Robinson County, I believe, in 1885, the same year that the state set up a separate education system for Native Americans, right? So... Three years later, I believe the state created the Indian Normal School in Robinson County, which over many iterations, or after many iterations, is now UNC Pembroke. But it was very unequal. I believe the state legislature set aside $500 for the school when they set it up, according to Lumby history. So obviously, they needed resources. So they went to Congress in 1888 saying, hey, please give us full federal recognition so we can increase our educational opportunities. It wasn't until... that Congress even granted them partial recognition, which did not give them the access to these education services, right? And so when you look at the partial recognition, the Lumby Act of 1956, you know, it was kind of almost a blessing and a curse, I think you could say. What the Act did was essentially recognize the Lumby as

The Michelle Hicks, principal chief of the Eastern Band, testified last month before Indian Affairs Committee and the Senate, and so did John Lowry, tribal chairman for the Lumby. And this issue came up, you know. And the Eastern Band has long said, we don't oppose Lumby recognition. We want them to go through bureaucratic channels, Office of Federal Acknowledgement. Mr. Lowry has long said, mm. you know, going through Congress would really be the most definitive way. It would, you know, lessen the chances for, you know, lawsuits to be filed. You know, John Lowry actually said during that hearing that he had no doubt if, you know, bureaucratic channels recognize the Lumby that 30 years from now after the process. would last 30 years that the Eastern Band would sue and take them through another couple decades of lawsuits. So it would be a very lengthy process. I think for the Lumby, it was Congress needs to fix this. One act of Congress can fix this. Sarah Nagam of the Border Belt Independent here with us on due south. We're going to bring in some other voices now, individuals who we have reached out to get some reaction to this major story. Ryan Emanuel was on due south about a year ago to talk about his book, On the Swamp, fighting for indigenous environmental justice. He's a Duke professor and refers to himself as a lumbie environmental scientist. I've spent my entire life governed by the 1956 Lumby Act, and that's a federal law that is held over from a dark period in federal Indian policy termination, and from a similarly dark period in the South, segregation. While the 1956 Act doesn't govern my identity as an indigenous person or a member of an indigenous community, it certainly has constrained my tribe's ability to exercise its inherent sovereignty as a native nation. That was Ryan Emanuel, who has joined our program before so many threads and offshoots of receiving full federal recognition. Here's now a clip from Ronnie Bell. For my whole life, you know, I've... understood that, you know, Columbia did not have that full federal recognition. And you kind of don't feel the wholeness that you need to have or feeling less than, you know, I've been in a room with other native people and, you know, having to explain that, you know, we're one of the largest tribes in the eastern United States, but we're not recognized by the federal government. And so now, you know, understanding that I'll be able to.

have those conversations. stand with a sense of pride that we are recognized. Ronnie Bell is the Fred Eshleman Professor and Chair of the Division of Pharmaceutical Outcomes and Policy at UNC Chapel Hills Pharmacy School. He has also been a longtime advocate to improve native health care in our state, as was his brother, Dr. Joseph Bell, who recently passed away. Both brothers spoke with Duesouth co-host Leonita Inge earlier this year about what federal recognition? for the Lumbie tribe could ultimately mean for reducing health care disparities. Here's another clip from Ronnie, taking us to the moment that he heard the news about this full federal recognition. You know, my thoughts went to my... brother, Dr. Joey Bell, who passed away in June. He was the first American Indian pediatrician in North Carolina. And for all of his life, was a strong advocate for our tribe and for American Indian children's health. And so I know that he would see this as a historic day and just very proud to be where we are at this point. An incredible moment for the Bell family and so many families, about 60,000 in this Lumby community. As Sarah Nagum shared with us earlier, she's on the line, a reporter with the Border Belt Independent, based in Robeson and Hoke and Scotland counties, this area along the North Carolina, South Carolina border where the Lumby tribe is so predominantly anchored. Sarah, there has always been opposition. to full federal recognition. We touched on this before. But if you can in brief, it's complicated. Tell us why. Yeah, it's very complicated. You know, the Eastern Band in particular has long argued that the Lumby tribe doesn't have a shared history, a shared language. And, you know, the Lumby does have a very unique history in Eastern North Carolina. Their ancestors were among the first to encounter European newcomers. And, you know, following the Tuscaroer War in the 18th century, particularly, a lot of Native American groups. went a little bit west, settled along the Lumber River in Robeson County. There they mingled with each other. They mingled with white people, with black people. So Lombie history is incredibly diverse. And in a lot of ways, the tribe really celebrates that, right? But the Eastern Band and some other opponents of Lumbie recognition have said, that really should disqualify them from full federal recognition.

Now, what some other folks will argue is that it's not really about that at all. It's really about casinos, right? Which is a whole other debate. All right. In our final moment or so, Sarah, I want to just return to some of the other voices that we have heard here across the last 15 minutes or so. First to Ryan Emanuel and then to Brittany Hunt. And these are reflections they have offered us about hearing the news that full federal recognition was finally. becoming a reality. What I felt was deeper than simple happiness or relief, it was a sense of intergenerational fulfillment, and also cautious optimism about the future. And that future holds new responsibilities and expectations for Lumby people. And I hope that we will rise to the challenge. Looking back on the long road that my ancestors have been on to get to this day and the amount of effort and time and energy that they've spent that has finally accumulated in us getting full federal recognition, I just feel overwhelmed with joy and happiness. And so I'm so thankful to be a part of this day. That was Professor Brittany Hunt of Virginia Tech, born and raised in Lumberton, North Carolina, offering reaction following the United States Senate, granting full recognition to her tribe, the Lumbie tribe of North Carolina. President Trump signed the bill into law soon thereafter. Throughout the conversation today, we've also heard from Ronnie Bell, a professor in the School of Pharmacy at UNC Chapel Hill, and we also heard from Ryan Emanuel. hydrologist, professor at Duke University, and author of On the Swamp Fighting for Indigenous Environmental Justice. We'll link to our original interviews with Ryan and Brittany, as well as the conversation with Ronnie and his brother, Dr. Joseph Bell, on our web post for today's show. Also here with us, providing additional context was Sarah Nagum, editor of the Border Belt Independent, part of the Assembly Network. Sarah, thank you so much for joining us today here on Dues South. Happy holidays. Thank you. And thank you for having me. I'm Jeff Tabir. You've been listening to DoSouth on listener-supported WUNC.

Welcome back to D-South on listener-supported WUNC. I'm Jeff Tiberi. The Lumbee tribe, predominantly based in Robeson County, North Carolina, has sought federal recognition for more than 130 years. Last week, a moment that generations have sought finally arrived. I feel absolutely positively overwhelmed with jubilation and happiness at the news of my tribe, the Lumby tribe, finally getting full federal recognition. This is something that is just so exciting for my people, but also it is the writing of a wrong. That is Brittany Hunt, who grew up in Lumberton, which is in Robeson County, and today is a professor of education at Virginia Tech. She's been a guest on DeSouth, sharing her efforts to teach the teachers about native history. And what a moment in North Carolina Native history this is for her and so many in the Lombie community. Later, we're going to hear from other previous guests on our program, experts in the field of Native health care, as well as the environment, two issues that the funding from full federal recognition could soon help to address. Let's first turn to Sarah Nagam of the Border Belt Independent, which is part of the Assembly Network. The Border Belt is a news outlet covering Robeson County and other areas that are part of the Lombie Territory. Sarah Nagam, welcome to Mike DeWine South. Thank you for having me. I gather you've been covering the story for a while and it has had many twists and turns. It wasn't necessarily a surprise that recognition happened like in the moment, but it has happened. How do you encapsulate your reaction to all of this, this monumental step? Yeah, I've been covering the Lombie Tribe for about four and a half years. And of course, they've been seeking full recognition a whole lot longer than that, as you said, more than 130 years, 137 actually. So, you know, it has been... a very long time coming. And I think particularly over the past few years, they became more and more confident, cautiously optimistic. I believe Lumbie Travel Chairman John Lowry used to describe it to me, you know, that or, you know, hopeful but realistic maybe, right? That it was going to happen each year and it didn't. And, you know, so every year it was kind of just disappointment for them. And this year, this year was different. This was, as a reminder to listeners, an early promise from President Trump upon taking office for the second time. I want to focus on who this is going to impact and how. So if you can give us a sense of how many people are going to be touched by this federal recognition and in what notable ways.

Right. So the Olympi tribe has about 60,000 members predominantly in Robeson, Scotland, Hoke, and Cumberland counties. What full federal recognition will mean for them is access to services through the Indian Health Service, which could be huge. You know, this is a region in North Carolina that doesn't have enough doctors, has very poor health outcomes in general compared to the rest of the state. particularly Robeson and Scotland. So, you know, there will be lots of opportunities, money coming in for health services, education services. Tribal members will have access to scholarships to attend college that they didn't have access to before, which can be huge. And, you know, it's really about the tribe gaining sovereign rights. Which, you know, at the end of the day is what it's all about. You note the 137-year battle. Why did this come to for this? To me, it strikes me as an, it's the intersection of policy and politics in some ways. Why now? Why did this happen now? Yeah, so I think to answer that question, you really have to go back 137 years, right? So the state of North Carolina recognized the tribe, then called the Croatan Indians of Robinson County, I believe, in 1885. The same year that the state set up a separate education system for Native Americans, right? So. Three years later, I believe the state created the Indian Normal School in Robinson County, which over many iterations, or after many iterations, is now UNC Pembroke. But it was very unequal. I believe the state legislature set aside $500 for the school when they set it up, according to Lumby history. So obviously, they needed resources. So they went to Congress in 1888 saying, hey, please give us full federal recognition so we can increase our educational opportunities. It wasn't until... that Congress even granted them partial recognition, which did not give them the access to these education services, right? And so when you look at the partial recognition, the Lumby Act of 1956, you know, it was kind of almost a blessing and a curse, I think you could say. What the Act did was essentially recognize the Lumby as a Native American group, right? But it denied them those benefits that fully recognized tribes receive. And essentially said, we are not going to recognize you ever. You're never going to be entitled to these benefits. So what happened with the Lumby Fairness Act passing is that it amends that 1956 Act and says, yes, the Lumby tribe is fully recognized and is now eligible to receive those benefits.

Sarah Nagum of the Border Belt Independent with us here on Due South, providing some background and context to the recent major development that has seen the Lumby people gain full federal recognition. This came through a must-pass bill in Congress. Tell us about why this ended up in a Defense Authorization Act, please. Yeah, seems like quite a weird, weird way, right, to finally grant a Native American tribe recognition. You know, lawmakers have not said, really, how it came to be tacked on to this defense spending bill. But I think, you know, you look historically, and Lummi Recognition has had bipartisan support in Congress for years. And the House has passed it. you know, several times now over the past five or six years. But it continued to stall in the Senate. And I think what happened by tacking it onto, as you said, this bill that really had to pass, right? It sort of paved the way. for less bickering, less arguing, you know, really to increase the chance that it would pass. So when the House passed its version of the NDAA months ago, October, I believe, you know, it included lumpy recognition. The Senate version did not. So the compromise bill included it. So North Carolina has a reminder to U.S. senators, 14 U.S. House members of those 16. unanimous support or was there anyone that said, no, we don't need to be doing this? Yeah, so that's an interesting question. You know, Thom Tillis has been a huge cheerleader for the Lumbie tribe and, of course, is not seeking re-election next year. And it seems to me really ramped up his efforts to get this pass this year. Ted Budd also in full support. Historically, there have been a couple of Congress members from Western North Carolina who have not supported Lombie recognition, mainly because their district includes the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians, which, you know, was in strong opposition of this for the Lumbie. Yeah. Let's stick with that for a moment. Maybe a little bit of a crystal ball question here, Sarah. But, and this is a serious question. This is now an act of Congress as signed by the president. But is this a done deal? Yeah, that's a good question. And, you know, it was interesting. The Michelle Hicks, principal chief of the Eastern Band. testified last month before Indian Affairs Committee and the Senate, and so did John Lowry, tribal chairman for the Lumby. And this issue came up, you know. And the Eastern Band has long said, we don't oppose Lumby recognition. We want them to go through bureaucratic channels, Office of Federal Acknowledgement. Mr. Lowry has long said, mm.

you know, going through Congress would really be the most definitive way. It would, you know, lessen the chances for, you know, lawsuits to be filed. You know, John Lowry actually said during that hearing that he had no doubt if, you know, bureaucratic channels recognize the Lumby that 30 years from now after the process. would last 30 years that the Eastern Band would sue and take them through another couple decades of lawsuits. So it would be a very lengthy process. I think for the Lumby, it was Congress needs to fix this. One act of Congress can fix this. Sarah Nagum of the Border Belt Independent here with us on due south. We're going to bring in some other voices now, individuals who we have reached out to to get some reaction to this major story. Ryan Emanuel was on due south about a year ago to talk about his book, On the Swamp, fighting for indigenous environmental justice. He's a Duke professor and refers to himself as a Lumby environmental scientist. I've spent my entire life governed by the 1956 Lumby Act, and that's a federal law that is held over from a dark period in federal Indian policy termination, and from a similarly dark period in the South, segregation. While the 1956 Act doesn't govern my identity as an indigenous person or a member of an indigenous community, it certainly has constrained my tribe's ability to exercise its inherent sovereignty as a native nation. That was Ryan Emanuel, who has joined our program before so many threads and offshoots of receiving full federal recognition. Here's now a clip from Ronnie Bell. For my whole life, you know, I've... understood that, you know, Columbia did not have that full federal recognition. And you kind of don't feel the wholeness that you need to have or feeling less than, you know, I've been in a room with other native people and, you know, having to explain that, you know, we're one of the largest tribes in the eastern United States, but we're not recognized by the federal government. And so now... you know, understanding that I'll be able to have those conversations, stand with a sense of pride that we are recognized. Ronnie Bell is the Fred Eshelman Professor and Chair of the Division of Pharmaceutical Outcomes and Policy at UNC Chapel Hills Pharmacy School. He has also been a longtime advocate to improve native health care in our state, as was his brother, Dr. Joseph Bell, who recently passed away.

Both brothers spoke with Duesouth co-host Leonita Inge earlier this year about what federal recognition for the Lumbie tribe could ultimately mean for reducing health care disparities. Here's another clip from Ronnie, taking us to the moment that he heard the news about this full federal recognition. You know, my thoughts went to my... brother, Dr. Joey Bell, who passed away in June. He was the first American Indian pediatrician in North Carolina. And for all of his life, was a strong advocate for our tribe and for American Indian children's health. And so I know that he would see this as a historic day and just very proud to be where we are at this point. An incredible moment for the Bell family and so many families, about 60,000 in this Lumby community. As Sarah Nagum shared with us earlier, she's on the line, a reporter with the Border Belt Independent, based in Robeson and Hoke and Scotland counties, this area along the North Carolina, South Carolina border where the Lumby tribe is so predominantly anchored. Sarah, there has always been opposition. to full federal recognition. We touched on this before. But if you can in brief, it's complicated. Tell us why. Yeah, it's very complicated. You know, the Eastern Band in particular has long argued that the Lumby tribe doesn't have a shared history, a shared language. And, you know, the Lumby does have a very unique history in Eastern North Carolina. Their ancestors were among the first to encounter European newcomers. And, you know, following the Tuscarore War in the 18th century, particularly, a lot of Native American groups. went a little bit west, settled along the Lumber River in Robinson County. There they mingled with each other. They mingled with white people, with black people. So Lombie history is incredibly diverse. And in a lot of ways, the tribe really celebrates that, right? But the Eastern Band and some other opponents of Lumbie recognition have said, that really should disqualify them from full federal recognition. Now, what some other folks will argue is that it's not really about that at all. It's really about casinos, right? Which is a whole other debate. All right. In our final moment or so, Sarah, I want to just return to some of the other voices that we have heard here across the last 15 minutes or so. First to Ryan Emanuel and then to Brittany Hunt. And these are reflections they have offered us about hearing the news that full federal recognition was finally. becoming a reality. What I felt was deeper than simple happiness or relief, it was a sense of intergenerational fulfillment, and also cautious optimism about the future. And that future holds new responsibilities and expectations for Lumby people. And I hope that we will rise to the challenge.

Looking back on the long road that my ancestors have been on to get to this day and the amount of effort and time and energy that they've spent that has finally accumulated in us getting full federal recognition, I just feel overwhelmed with joy and happiness. And so I'm so thankful to be a part of this day. That was Professor Brittany Hunt of Virginia Tech, born and raised in Lumberton, North Carolina, offering reaction following the United States Senate, granting full recognition to her tribe, the Lombie tribe of North Carolina. President Trump signed the bill into law soon thereafter. Throughout the conversation today, we've also heard from Ronnie Bell, a professor in the School of Pharmacy at UNC Chapel Hill, and we also heard from Ryan Emanuel. hydrologist, professor at Duke University, and author of On the Swamp Fighting for Indigenous Environmental Justice. We'll link to our original interviews with Ryan and Brittany, as well as the conversation with Ronnie and his brother, Dr. Joseph Bell, on our web post for today's show. Also here with us, providing additional context was Sarah Nagum, editor of the Border Belt Independent, part of the Assembly Network. Sarah, thank you so much for joining us today here on Mike DeWine South. Happy holidays. Thank you. And thank you for having me. I'm Jeff Tabir. You've been listening to Mike DeWine South on listener-supported WUNC.

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