The Politics Hour: Virginia voters approved redistricting. So, what's next?

From WAMU 885 at American University in Washington, welcome to The Politics Hour starring Tom Sherwood. I'm Kojo Nandi.

Tom Sherwood is our resident analyst and the contributing writer for Washington City Paper. Tom Sherwood, welcome. Hello, everybody. Later in the broadcast, we'll be speaking with the Montgomery County Council President Natalie Fannie Gonzalez. We're also hoping to have a conversation with the Virginia Speaker of the House, Don Scott. But he is riding around the state right now,

so whether or not we have a conversation with him will depend on the kind of reception he can get. But joining us first is James Walkinshaw, who represents Virginia's 11th District in Congress. Congressman James Walkinshaw, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks, Cojo. Thanks for having me. If you have questions or comments,

you can join the conversation by giving us a call, at 800433-88050. You can send email with questions to code you at WAMU.org. You can also send us questions on Instagram by commenting on our posts or responding to our stories. We're also on Blue Sky. Follow us at WAMU.org. We'll be live skying throughout the show today, including highlights from the conversations with our guests. You can follow along for that. Congressman Walkinshaw, Virginia voters this week said yes, by three points to temporarily redrawing congressional maps, how do you interpret that very tight margin? Well, I don't know that I agree that it's a very tight margin.

I mean, the margin for the yes vote this week was larger than the margin by which Glenn Youngkin was elected governor in 2021. And he followed his narrow victory by claiming to have been given a massive mandate by the voters of Virginia. Look, you know, Virginia is still a closely divided state. I think Abigail Spanberger's huge win was outside the norm in Virginia if a Democrat or a Democratic cause wins by four, five, six points. That's a comfortable margin.

But look, this is something that certainly required a conversation with voters, including voters who traditionally support Democrats. A lot of folks like myself who believe in nonpartisan redistricting and want that to be the reality across the country. but when they learned what Donald Trump has commanded Republican-controlled legislatures to do around the country and we're concerned about Virginia voters' voices being drowned out, we were able to bring them along. Give us a call. What do you think about the Virginia redistricting vote? 80433-880-80-0 is the number to call. Tom Sherwood?

Congressman, thanks for joining us today. Tom Sherwood here. Three percent was lower than the polling, which showed a 5 percent margin. And you're right, that's the general average, and Abigail Spanberger was way outside the norm with, or what, 15%. But Speaker Don Scott was giving an interview to a radio station this week, and he said, I'm going to quote him directly. We know it was close because there were some Democrats, some squishy bedwetting Democrats who claimed, oh, I don't like gerrymandering. And then he went on to say that black and brown voters Democrats turned out in significant.

numbers. Have you heard that quote from him before? And what do you think of the squishy bedwetting Democrats? I had not heard that. Speaker Scott has a way with words that that I don't possess. And, you know, look, I do think there is a reality that Democrats traditionally, and I'm talking about especially Democrats who are in positions of power have wanted to play by the old set of norms, right? Every 10 years. Yeah, that's right. And want to be fair-minded and do the right thing.

We haven't been met with that same spirit by our Republican friends in the Trump era. So we have to fight fire with fire and make sure that Virginia voters had the opportunity to consider this temporary measure. And, you know, there's been a lot of comparisons to other states. It's worth noting. Voters in Texas didn't get to make a decision. They didn't get to weigh in. Their voice was not heard on the mid-decade gerrymandering that Trump ordered to take place there. It's similarly in other Republican states. So Virginia voters got got that choice. They all got to go out and vote all across the Commonwealth, including those who were a little bit uncomfortable with the concept, and we ended up prevailing. We'll get to the court in a minute because there are court cases challenging this,

but one of the good things, as you just said, is that Virginia voters did this wasn't just the legislature. Do you have a running total of since there, in addition to North Carolina, Texas, California, where it stands right now in terms of the number of redistricting moves that have been made that favor Republicans or Democrats, just kind of a big picture across the country? Yeah, I mean, if you assume for a second that, Republicans do actually pick up net five seats from their Texas gerrymander, then as of today, we're pretty much dead even. Now, I think we're going to learn in November that the Republicans in Texas miscalculated and some of those seats that they were counting on because especially

Latino voters had swung toward Trump in 2024. They've now swung hard in the other direction for obvious reasons based on failed Trump and Republican policies, I don't know that they're going to get those five Cs. They might end up only getting two or three out of Texas. In that case, Virginia is ahead right now in this national kind of, I'm sorry, Democrats are ahead in this national redistricting contest that unfortunately is taking place. And just to be clear, this redistricting, if it goes and survives the court challenges, will be on the ballot for this November. But then in 2030, 2013,

after the census is taken, there will be a redistricting again for the 232 season. This is a temporary redistricting. Is that correct?

That's right. So for the 2032 elections, the commission process, Virginia's commission process, would be restored under the amendment that voters approved this week. If you'd like to share

your opinion on the redistricting vote in Virginia, give us a call at 800 433-8850 or send email to cojo at wamu.org. Congressman Walkinshaw, your constituents in Fairfax County voted overwhelmingly for redistricting, accounting for about 17% of that yes vote. How do you respond to the argument that Fairfax County plays too heavy a role in determining the fate of the rest of the Commonwealth? Well, under the Constitution, the United States of America, every person gets one vote.

So a voter from Fairfax County gets precisely the same vote as a voter from Flavanna County. And voters in both Fairfax and Flavana got to go out and vote. And look, my Republican friends continue to be shocked that there's been a backlash to Trump and especially the Doge policies. By some measures, we've lost 30 to 40,000 federal jobs in Virginia, many more thousands of contractors and folks associated with federal employment because of that doge chainsaw. And Republican leaders in Virginia, Glenn Youngkin, my colleagues here in Congress, were cheerleading for that every step of the way. They shouldn't be surprised that there's been a massive backlash. I'll also note, you know, it was a strange campaign that the no side ran. where they were pitting one part of Virginia

or different parts of Virginia against one another. One of my Republican colleagues even showed up in Fairfax County with a MAGA radio host and attacked Fairfax County and Fairfax County voters. Every time they did that, every time they attacked Fairfax County, they generated 100 new votes coming out of Fairfax County. And look, you don't hear Democrats like me or Speaker Scott

running down or attacking rural Virginia or rural Virginia voters, I would really encourage my Republican friends to stop pitting one part of Virginia against another. It has failed for them politically. It's the wrong thing to do. Well, what they are doing is challenging the restricting amendment in court in a series of cases. The Virginia Supreme Court expected to weigh in soon. Why do you think this mid-decade temporary redistricting will hold up in court? Well, look, I'm not a lawyer. I don't play one on the radio, but just haven't looked at it. To me, the arguments seem specious. One, they're saying that the General Assembly session was limited to conversations around or legislation around the budget. I find it hard to believe that the Supreme Court of Virginia will want to tell the General Assembly of Virginia what they can and cannot consider during their sessions. Second argument they're making is that. that the notices had to be posted at the circuit court on the, you know, I guess nailed to the front door of the courthouses. That hasn't happened in constitutional amendments for decades.

If this is invalid because of that, many, many other constitutional amendments are invalid. But I think the big picture thing here is it would be shocking after millions, literally millions of Virginians got to go out and vote. They voted yes. Some voted no. they got to have their voice heard, it would be a shocking thing for the courts to veto the voters. That's something that courts all across the country, certainly here in Virginia, have always been very hesitant to do. I think it would be unprecedented. I would be shocked if they did it. Virginia political analyst Bob Hawsworth was saying that it certainly is a chance the court could rule

against you, but he cited the same things you just did that it would be extraordinary after the legislature acted and then asked the voters to act that some small glitch here or there could overturn what has just occurred. How quickly do you expect these court rulings to come? You know, I don't know. Again, you're not a lawyer. You don't play one of the way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I've heard it could be in the next week or two. You know, I certainly hope it will be resolved quickly. And it also is worth noting, you know, this issue, this argument that the measure itself, was unconstitutional or illegal. Republicans tried that argument, right?

Governor Glenn Youngkin was all around Virginia saying that this is unconstitutional and illegal. Voters rejected it. So they've heard the arguments. They rejected it. I don't think the court will overrule the voters. What about just the practical? You look at the map of what the congressional districts are now, the 11, and then what it will be under the new procedure if it goes forward.

Some of the districts are stretched out from intensely urban areas to rural areas. It doesn't look like a cohesive map to me, and I've covered Virginia for some years. It really looks like it's straining to get it so that Democrats likely would have a 10 to 1 advantage in Congress rather than a 6 to 5 advantage. What does your 11th district change significantly? Do you have to put more mileage on your car? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yes, yes, the 11th district changes.

it will lose about half of Fairfax County that I represent now and goes out through Manassas and Prince William where I grew up coincidentally out to Falkir and then into the Shenandoah Valley down to Rocking County. Beautiful country out there, but it's a long way. And it's less Democrat leaning too. That's right. And I think that is an interesting maybe feature of this. You know, the nonpartisan map in districts that we have now,

which I support. I think that's the best way to do things. As I said, they did create, just based on geography, a lot of districts that are very, very red or very, very blue. That's how people live now. These districts, in some ways, some of them will be more competitive, mine included. So that might make for some interesting contest this year or in the next several cycles. We got an email from Justin. Would you consider proposing a national bill or amendment that will require all states to methods of redistricting that do not involve elected officials? Oh, man. Justin, is speaking my language. Not only would I propose it, I'm a co-sponsor of that legislation. We have it in the House. It would ban partisan gerrymandering nationally.

There was a vote on that legislation. It was before I was elected to Congress. Democrats supported it and Republicans opposed it, including some of the Virginia Republicans who are now very high-minded about their opposition to gerrymandering. They had the opportunity to vote to ban it. And I've come to the conclusion that the only way we're going to get to a national ban on partisan gerrymandering is for Republicans to learn that they're not going to win, that Democrats are going to respond. And best case, they will fight us to a draw when it comes to redistricting. Maybe then they will finally join hands with us and ban partisan gerrymandering nationally. You know, a lot of constituents do contact your office and all the offices on Capitol Hill for various constituent service problems, et cetera. And they have different issues, public issues, if they're in the suburbs or the exerbs or rural. What will you do differently in your new district, the geographical district?

I'll let people look at it up online. Yeah. Where you have a new office somewhere further out west of how will you have to change what you do to represent and get around to all these different places? Yeah. Well, first, it's important to note, you know, it is not out of the norm nationally or even in Virginia for districts to stretch from the suburbs into rural communities. I've had to remind folks, and, you know, I know both you, both of you remember this. The Republicans after the 2010 census gerrymandered Virginia, and they specifically drew a district for then- Congressman Frank Wolf, Goodman, who lived in Fairfax. It was a district that stretched essentially from his house in Fairfax County out to the Shenandoah Valley. So it's been common in Virginia history for someone who might happen to live in Fairfax or in Northern Virginia to represent the Shenandoah Valley.

And look, you know, I've represented folks in local government and now in Congress, my approach is to show up, listen, learn, and try to work with people to deliver the resources and policies that their community needs. So I'm going to be, yep, go ahead. Speaking of these new districts, Virginia's new seventh congressional district which cuts through Fairfax County will likely be the state's most competitive race that's attracted a wide slate of candidates, including current Congressman Eugene Vindman, who said this week he's running. Are you ready to endorse someone in that race to be

your congressional colleague? Well, I'm a strong supporter of Eugene Vindman. He, however, is running in the newly numbered First District. So he represents the seventh now, but he's running in the first district, which is more or less a lot of the territory that he represents. So that's separate from, I think you're talking about the seventh district where there are 10, 11 candidates, including some prominent names who are running that stretches from Arlington out to central Virginia. And the answer to your question is, no, I haven't endorsed any candidate in that race. There's a lot of great folks. I'm certainly going to be going to be talking to them. But as you noted, I'm certainly going to have some miles to put on my car and talking to the folks in the 11th district.

I'm probably going to be mostly focused on that. There are hell of a lot of members of Congress in the House who are retiring this year. I've forgotten the number now, but it's up over 30. And then there's some senators who are not running or running for other offices. Are there any incumbents in Virginia, the 11 congressional district who are retiring? I don't think there is, but I couldn't recall this morning when I was getting ready for the show. There have been no retirement announcements. You know, I do think some of my Republican colleagues are perhaps waiting to see what the Supreme Court does with this ruling and, you know,

may or may not run for reelection as their districts have changed dramatically, but no one has made any announcements to my knowledge. There used to be more camaraderie among Republicans and Democrats on the Hill. We all know about the intense of fighting that goes on now. But are there Republicans that you have been working with in the state with bipartisan way that makes it different than all this partisan stuff that we're seeing with gerrymandering? Yeah, look, I'll be completely on it. And, you know, I was here for 11 years as Jerry Connolly's chief of staff when, you know, we had Jim Moran and Frank Wolf and kind of a different era. There's no question that bipartisanship is more difficult now than it was then. It's not impossible. You have to find those

issues that are below the radar, maybe the ones that don't get the headlines. And I do that every day. I've got legislation on, you know, to address the fentanyl crisis with Republicans and legislation on veterans issues with Republicans that I work with. So it's harder, but we still have to do it. And look, when there's a Virginia issue where we can come together, I'm going to work with anybody to help Virginia. It has been a frustration of mine that in our delegation, especially when thousands and thousands of my constituents and tens of thousands of Virginians were being fired by Donald Trump, we didn't have bipartisan pushback. It didn't help that President Trump this week criticized the election to vote on Tuesday, that it was crooked, that the Republicans were winning early, and then suddenly votes appeared. Now, it just shows that president doesn't understand vote counting or doesn't want to, but he just seems to pour more fuel in the fire that things are not.

right, things are done poorly. I guess that's no surprise to you how the president acts. No, it's more lies. And I would hope that the Republicans here in Virginia, who, while they're I know disappointed in the result and may be angry about the result, know that, you know, here in Virginia and really across the country, we run free and fair election. So fraud played no role in the results of this election. I have just been informed that Virginia speaker, Don Scott, more than likely not be able to call into the show, which only extends your time, Congressman. I've got to. I have plenty more questions. Yeah, good. All right. More from Tom. We got a policy question from Joshua in Alexandria, Virginia.

Joshua, you're on the air. Go ahead, please. Hello, my name is Josh. I'm from Alexandria, Virginia. I said that. My policy question is regard. I apologize. Now that the Democrats have this electoral advantage within the state of Virginia, what will be the messaging from the Democrats to the working class people regarding how they are now going to fix what is happening? How are they going to address the affordability crisis? How are they going to address pushback regarding the doge cuts within Northern Virginia? and then how do they also consolidate the fact that now there are people in different parts of the state who have Republican representatives that had Democrats and doesn't seem to be much messaging as to how they're going to help the working class.

And I'll take my answer offline. Thank you for your call. It's a great question because there's just a general feeling in the country, even now among polling, that the Democrats have abandoned working people. Yeah, look, and I really appreciate the question, Joshua. I come from a working class Virginia family. My dad was a plumber. My mom was a nurse.

And, you know, I grew up in a time in Virginia where a family, you know, with a plumber and a nurse could make it and could make ends meet. And that's a lot harder today. And look, I think the Trump agenda and the Trump policies have made all of that worse. The terrorists are driving. Yeah, and Governor Abigail Spanberger also wants to revise a collective bargaining bill, legislation that you admin. support? In Fairfax County, along with Supervisor Gross, I led the effort to put in place our collective bargaining ordinance, and it's been a tremendous success, and it has not driven up costs.

I mean, frankly, when you look at raises for government employees, local, state, and federal, they continue to lag far behind the private sector. but what collective bargaining does is give the workers, the people who are on the front lines, whether it's a police officer, firefighter, social worker, who know exactly what needs to happen to make government more efficient and effective to deliver for their communities. It gives them a real voice, a formal voice to bring those solutions to the table. I think that's good for everybody. I've seen it in action.

I don't buy all of the histrionics around it. It works all over the country. working in Fairfax County as we speak. I think it can work in other parts of Virginia as well. Do you see yourself as... I don't know that I got to answer Josh's question, but it's a longer answer. So Josh, feel free to call my office if you didn't get a substantive answer to your question there. Well, I think it's generally speaking that the Democrats are just as Republicans are captured by the hard right, that the Democrats are captured by the hard left. And there's too little compromise in that.

The economy, of course, is sinking in many respects, and we get to some of that in the moment. But I think that's the issue that working people in general, and that's a broad characterization, just don't feel like people are speaking up for them as they struggle with this economy, gas prices, et cetera. New data also shows that Fairfax County's unemployment rate, you mentioned Doge earlier, that unemployment rate jumped by more than a third and twenty-two-year. 2025 due to last year's federal workforce cuts.

What effect is that having on the region's economy and what can be done about? Look, you know, Doge and the Trump administration policies have been devastating for Virginia and for the D.C. region, right? There's no other way to say it. The illegal firings, the mass firings, the rifts have had a real impact. I hope that we have weathered the worst of the storm. We've started to win a few victories up here. I started a new federal workforce caucus that's bipartisan to help us defend the rights of federal workers. We blocked the attempted firing of 4,000 federal workers during the shutdown last year in the appropriations, the funding process last year.

We got some protections and restored funding for federal agencies and programs, but we're going to continue to have to fight that. I mean, you know, Donald Trump and Russ Vought who said he wants to traumatize federal. workers, they're out of control. And we're just going to have to keep fighting and standing up. It's not just bad for our region. It's bad for the country because these are dedicated folks, knowledgeable folks, who are providing the services that the American people pay for. Speaking of that, the Homeland Security Agency has been shut down.

I've lost track of the days. Is it over 60 now? I don't know what it is. There's some movement of trying to get the Homeland Security Agency people paid. what's your understanding of that before we go? Yeah, this is a wild one. And you all know I worked up here a long time. I've seen a lot of things.

This has shocked me. We had a bill come out of the Senate. 100 senators supported it. No one objected to it to fund all the DHS agencies except for ICE and CBP because they got a lot of money already from the so-called big beautiful bill. That bill came from the Senate into the House.

Bipartisan. We were all ready to pass it would have funded DHS. And Speaker Johnson wouldn't put it on the floor because he had a revolt on his side. Now they want the reconciliation package that's moving through the Senate to progress or include an ever-changing list of conservative list. Music in the background means that we're about to take a break. So Congressman Walkenshaw, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you all. Thanks for having me.

We're going to take a break when we come back. Natalie Fannie Gonzalez, Montgomery County Council President. I'm Kojo Namdi.

Welcome back. Joining us in studio now is Natalie Fannie Gonzalez, who is the Montgomery County Council President. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you so much for having me today. If you have comments or questions for Natalie Fannie Gonzalez, give us a call at 800433-8850. You can send email to coja at wamu.org. You can also send us questions on Instagram by commenting on our posts or responding to our stories. We're also on Blue Sky. Follow us at WAMU.org.

Before we get to Montgomery County, Tom Sherwood, let's talk a little bit about 15th Street in Washington and the bike lane that the Trump administration wanted to remove. Our guest tells me that she is an avid bike rider, so she'll be interested in this story. Well, we all should like bikes, whether we ride them or not. It's another story. A judge put the brakes on a very unpopular decision

by the Interior Department and Park Service to close this bike lane that crosses the National Mall right at 15th Street. It's a beautiful setting. Lots of people use that bike lane. And the judge, Judge Amy Berman Jackson, federal district court, said that the government was acting with arbitrary and capricious moves without following basic federal law. So just as this bike lane was put in back in 2021, after reviews and discussions and what, all of that, they put them in. And she says, if you're going to take them out, you basically have to do the same thing. So this is at least a temporary setback. Maybe people will forget about it. Again, the big bottom line concern, though, among cyclists is that if this goes through and they block this

bike lane or take it out, what's next? Pennsylvania Avenue, with its magnificent ride between the Congress and the Treasury building next to the White House, would go next. Well, we'll have to see what happens. And as I said, you're an avic bike rider, so I guess you would approve of this. Yes, I think we need to think about moving people, which is different from thinking, just moving cars, and ensuring that our streets are safe for people to walk in bike is part of having this, having society to evolve towards safety. Well, you guys had a lot of problems in Montgomery County about putting in bike lanes. People worry about losing parking space, travel lanes, access,

and infirm people or families trying to get to their cars out on the street. And it's a real issue beyond just whether you like bikes or not. And people have issues on the bus-only lanes. And to me, that's critical because you want, especially low-income folks, they do use the bus. And we want to ensure the buses are effective and on time. And that's part of the strategy that I fully support. Since World War II or even before, you're changing the culture of cars keen. Right.

And that's the ongoing argument that we're having. We've solved Middle East peace before we solve the U.S. The ongoing argument in the District of Columbia having to do with the emergency youth curfew, Tom Sherwood, both Mayor Bousa and U.S. attorney Janine Piro are attacking the D.C. Council because there's now apparently a new delay on the emergency youth curfew. What's going on? Well, it was an odd vote by the council on Tuesday. On the one hand, the council members voted 8 to 5, for a bill to create a pattern of curfews that will be permanent legislation. But because of the way the city works and has to be approved by Congress, that curfew legislation won't go in effect to probably September.

Meanwhile, a short time later, they refuse, by one vote, refuse to do an emergency curfew bill right now that the mayor, the police chief, the U.S. attorney all wanted so that during the summer months, there can be better coordination, whenever these large groups of young people gather, like at the Yards Park and other places, but they didn't vote for it. It's all kind of wrapped up in politics. The mayor said doing nothing is not an option, but the council did nothing when it comes

to emergency curfews right now. Some of the council members are saying that they don't want to police young people like this and aggressively give them juvenile court records, although Brooke Pinto on the council said no one's been arrested. They don't want to create us against them thing with police, which will only make young people not like police even more. The key words you mentioned were there is an upcoming election, and that is apparently influencing how council members are addressing this issue. They're looking ahead at their prospects for re-election or election. Yes, and they also say that they want, many of the councilmers want to address what they call the root causes of why young people act out,

that there are not enough social programs, recreation programs, et cetera. I asked the governor, I mean, I asked the mayor who would like to be governor. I ask her office, how much money does the city spend on violence interruption, youth program, et cetera, et cetera. It's a little over $200-something million. Now, a lot more could be done and maybe more could be done with the money we're spending, but that's a longer-term issue rather than what police are facing on a very short notice every few nights a week.

We shall see. Fannie Gonzalez, last week you pitched a spending plan that included revising Montgomery County's tax code. What is a progressive income tax and how would it help the county to bring in more revenue? Thank you for the question. There's a lot going on in Montgomery County. There's a lot of political pushback on what you've proposed. Not on this particular item, I would say. We have kind of the whole mix. We can go through that. But on this particular one that I'm being asked, on the new taxing structure. I am talking about a progressive income tax that we as a county have discussed for many years,

yet nobody has put something forward. So I'm taking the opportunity as we rearranging the proposed budget sent by the county executive that includes a property tax increase in saying that this is the time to ensure that we have a progressive in-contact, which means that higher-eastern income tax. income households would pay a little more than those in lower means. That's what it means. So I came up with a structure based on numbers where if you're making less than $50,000, and this is gross...

A year. Yeah, a year. This is gross income. So your new income tax rate should be 2.5. Right now, everybody pays 3.2. So you know that. Everyone pays 3.2. So if you're making less than 50 and saying that your new county income tax rate should be 2.5.

If you make between 50 to 150, okay, this is gross income, then the tax rate should be 2.8. Again, less than what is right now. If you make 150,000 all the way to 300, then it should be 3.2, which is what we have right now. but if you make more than $300,000, then the rate should be $3.3. And that's the maximum we can go as a county because we had to follow state law. For those of us who may have trouble grasping the specifics of what you just said, your claim is that your plan would bring down income taxes for 96% of county residents. Who are these other four percenters?

And how would your plan impact them? The dual-income families particularly? particularly. So basically, two things going on right now with your questions. What I'm saying is that if you're making more than $300,000, you're going to pay more. That's what a progressive income. Why don't you pick $300,000? Look, we were playing with the numbers, and that's what works, but this particular item is going to committee next week. And I told the committee members, you know, I'm not, I'm open to see what other changes you want to give. Maybe is, instead of saying, greater than $300,000, maybe you want to say greater than $500,000.

I'm open to that, but at the end of the day, let's look at the numbers in what works. You're doing this in part to Mark Elrich, the county executive, proposed a 6.5% property tax increase, and you want to, for people who are worried about what you're doing in taxes, you want to eliminate that, and you want to spread out the income tax broad more broadly to avoid raising taxes. But you do want to raise money because you think the county needs more money. Exactly. But also thinking about the structural deficit that we have as a county as well.

Structural deficit means you're spending more than you're taking in. And so if we do what the county executive wants us to do, which is a property tax increase, we're going to have a structural deficit. So he put together a budget with money that we don't have. and I think that's irresponsible, especially today when so many people who live in Montgomery County in the Washington, D.C. region in general, who have been laid off. You know, there's so many people without jobs right now. This is not the time to be talking about increasing taxes. So I'm proposing an alternative that is going to be, we're going to, different aspects of this proposal are going to be

discussed starting next week in the County Council. Elrich this week said your plan actually would result in people, in more people paying more taxes than his plan. Why are you proposing to cut the homeowner tax credit and how do you respond to his criticism? Yes. Well, numbers don't lie. And I would say to him, I am not the one proposing increasing taxes at all. He is the one doing such thing.

So to reduce income tax rates, I am proposing we eliminate the income tax offset credit, which is the one. one that I think he's talking about, and the working families income supplement. These two tax credits aim to help reduce the tax burden on families, but both are limited on the families that actually are eligible. So, for example, you need to be a property owner to be eligible for that. So forget about renters. So my proposal brings real relief to all hardworking families because you are basically taxing people based on how much money they make and not giving relief.

base if they apply to a particular supplement. Now, let's go back to the, a really important point that I want to make is that the recent federal tax rate shows that 83% of the households that earn less than $50,000 do not benefit from the Earned In-Contax supplement, which is a benchmark for those eligible for the working families' income tax supplement. And again, we're talking about the county taxes. Those who apply and get taxes from the state, we're not touching. those. And there's a series of other tax credits, like the ones targeting seniors and so forth,

that we're not talking about those either. We'll get back to the county executive criticisms in a second, but first here's Tom. You're talking about simplifying the income tax thing, creating a new rate of around 300,000, or at 300,000, and you're willing to adjust that, if necessary. And everybody will qualify without the need of applying. Montgomery County generally is seen as a very wealthy county, suburban county with some, obviously, industry. What is the structural deficit? How much short money are you taking then than what you're spending? Then we're going to get what you're spending. So right now, the structural deficit based on what the county executive is proposing is around $250 million. It's a lot of money. Out of a budget of 11, what's your budget?

It's close to $8 billion. But it made sound like a lot that this is a big number. It's not. We have over a million people living in Montgomery County, and the needs are growing. The people who are making, their wages are not increasing. And we have lots of families, especially young families who are leaving. Allow me to interrupt to talk about wage increases because you are proposing to give county employees a 2% wage increase. But county executive Elrich had already made an agreement with the union to give them a nearly 3% wage increase. Why are you backing off from that promise? These 1% are a great deal of money.

Sounds like one or two, but there's a lot of money every percent. But go ahead. Yes. And I'm not backing off on anything. You know why? Because the council has nothing to do with the negotiations between the county executive and the unions. We take no part. After they finish negotiating, they come to us.

The county executive negotiated with unions based on money that we do not have. He negotiated based on numbers. on a property tax increase that we cannot give to working families. It's impossible. And you know who I feel so bad about it? I come from the labor union. It's our unions. I don't think they knew that when they were negotiating that the numbers that they were working on

were based on projections based on a tax increase that we haven't even approved and that we're not going to approve because, as you know. One more. One more. Here's Elrich continuing to be critical of your proposal. Here he is earlier this week. When we make commitments to our employees, we keep them. Compensation agreements in this budget were negotiated in good faith.

Those agreements matter not only because they affect paychecks, but because they reflect whether our word means something. You're saying you weren't a part of those negotiations. We were not part of those negotiations. We're never part of those negotiations. And the sad thing is that yes or... Well, you're not normally part of those negotiations. We never...

That's a county executive function. That's what you... Exactly. That's his job. But then he negotiated with numbers that don't exist. So then he kicks the ball to the county council and we need to resolve this situation when we have council members who have publicly, and all three people running for county executive have publicly said that they're not going to vote on property tax increases. Guess what? The negotiations that Mark Elrich is talking about is based on property tax increases that the council is not going to have because communities can not. not have them. People are like struggling right now. You have been supported by labor unions. Yes. Very much so. Yes. You're proposing, however, to reopen the negotiated contracts for all the unions. You've been historically supported by the unions. They're obviously not very happy that you're going to take a scalpel knife or axe to their raises. Why did you, why did you, why

did you want, you know, all these union people, there's a lot of, you know, thousands of them, why you've irritated them? One, why did you do it? And what happens if your plan doesn't succeed? Well, two things. Number one, it's not like I, I want to do this. There's no, numbers don't lie. There's no way we can have a balanced budget if we don't have a property tax increase. And colleagues are not on board with a property tax increase. Mark Havich. personnel costs. Yes. So the negotiations that happened with the county executive did not involve the county council and they were based on numbers that don't exist because they were based on property taxes that we're not going to increase. So the money is not there. So that's number one. So it's not

Natalie's fault. My job is to ensure that we have a balanced budget. And we're not making cuts. I'm saying that instead of giving increases, increases, which is different. Everybody's going to have a race. It's just not going to be as much as they were negotiating. And it's horrible for me to be in this position, but it is also my duty. I'm not going to make a political statement and say, I'm not going to have property tax increases, but then if I do that, then where is the money coming from? Are the council members going to take a cut? Do you mean a salary cut? Whatever, yeah, whatever you get paid. Well, I told them because her salaries and everything comes with their office budgets, I have always since I arrived to the county council said that I'm okay to not having increases in an office budget.

One last question on this dispute. Last year, you compared your relationship with Mark Elrich to siblings who fight all the time but still eat ice cream together. Are you still eating ice cream together or has your relationship evolved? I had coffee with him this morning. And I smiled. Oh, no, I, you know, I think. Coffee is different from ice cream. What was said at the coffee meeting? No, we had a coffee class. There was an event, and I'm very excited about an event, is the opening of Centronia, early childhood education program in Wheaton, so we were there for the groundbreaking.

Did you discuss this in any way in casual? No, no, but I think that's what makes the relationship special. You need to be able to have human interactions and understand when there's a time for everything. And there are a lot of things that he and I agreed, and when it comes to numbers in the budget, they're always difficult. And I wish we had a simple budget that we could just approve, but that's not the case. We're going to have to have reduction.

He's running for a seat to join you on the council. Have you endorsed him? That's what I want to know. No, I'm not endorsing anybody. But you're okay with him running for at large. He's been a county executive for two terms. He was on the council before, and now he's running at large again. You're not opposing him.

I'm not opposing him. But you're not endorsing him. I'm going to have to answer that question because I can't help myself, especially the way you framed it, which is right. am I do I agree that somebody who spent years on the county council went on to become county executive and wants to come back to be a council member?

I do not. Because if you are truly a progressive, you should be able to elevate and support the next generation. And he's not doing that. You need to understand when is your time to move on. If you were to say, Natalie, I'm running for Congress, good for you, that's something up.

But he's going backwards, and I don't think that's right. There's not going to be a lot of ice cream and coffee. We're on elections. Can we very quickly ask about the county executive? Three of your colleagues on the council are running for county executive. Have you taken the position on their races? No, I'm not endorsing any of them, especially before the budget.

No, unless one of them does something incredibly insane and unprofessional during this budget, that might change my mind. That's the only way. Okay. You got a question from Tom. Council President Fannie Gonzalez held a public. meeting on the University Corridor Plan in Camp Mill, where the community was uniformly against this plan, but the council president voted for it. Why did she go against the community consensus? What is the plan? It's the University Boulevard sector plan, and that's false. You cannot

say that how community was against it, because that's not true. Sector plans are you bring a range of different views on an issue, and you agree on son. I had a public, a townhouse, a townhouse meeting and the main issue of that town hall meeting was to remove the can meal shopping center from the sector plan, which I agreed and I did. So that was the main issue. But, you know, we, it has been. Tom cannot claim to speak for a majority. Here is Paula in Silver Spring. Paula, your turn. Hi, Council President Fani Gonzalez and one of your constituents in the Wheaton area, 20902. I have a question related to our housing stock. We talk a lot about having affordable housing for younger people, young families, super important.

What I'm seeing is a blockage in the pipeline on the other side. People who have houses that are too big for them, they want and need for medical health reasons or financial reasons to downsides. there's nothing affordable in the county in the same way that it's not affordable for younger people or people who work for the county at entry levels for them to go down to. So to liberate that multi-children house or big family house with the big yard to another family. It's like there's a missing piece. That's an interesting dilemma. People want to get rid of their big houses, move to smaller houses.

And what she's saying is they're not available. You know, I love the question. I don't know, you, Paula, but thank you for that question. I actually worked on that, and the county council passed a zoning text amendment only a few months ago during the summer to allow people who have single family homes to be allowed to convert them into duplexes or triplexes, which is smaller homes as she's talking about. And we allow that now after the ZTA that I is sponsored with council member Andrew Friedsen, where were the leads. That was approved, but it's only on certain places near transit. So we made it very specific. Yes, more housing, more duplexes and triplex, but in particular corridors near public transportation.

Housing is a horrific problem across the country in every urban area. in terms of there's changing zoning so it'd be more mixed used housing one of the complaints we hear from the housing developers who build that housing is that Montgomery County is too restrictive and has too many fees attached to all of that mark ellich again says no no that's you know we've got plenty of housing in the pipeline they just need to build it where are you on making look at northern virginia housing grew up everywhere yeah high-rise localized No rise. But Montgomery County is behind, is there something you need to change in your county to make it easier for people to build? Yes.

One thing is just like the ZTA that we just approved is one of the many things that we need to do. The comments from the county executive about the pipeline, that just shows again not understanding how development works. He keeps talking about that pipeline that we have. When you file, and remember, I come from the planning board, so I know this thing like by heart. When you file an application to create a particular development project, you know, you go to the planning board, you make that application. It doesn't mean that you're going to end up actually building the property. So that pipeline that he's talking about, it's about projects of people since the 90s or 80s actually. Just preserving their right to do it.

Yes, but it doesn't mean. And why don't they do? There's so many reasons. There's a particular project in my district that I wish it would move forward. Why are they not moving forward? They're not moving forward because the property owner has some challenges with his partner. And because of that internal conflict, they have decided not to move forward. Two quick questions.

You only got one minute. What is the ICE Out Act, the Montgomery County Council is unanimously passed this week? There's so many bills that we've been passing. That's one of many. That was very quickly what it is. That is the one that says no detentions for immigrants. when ICE captures them or terrorizes them. So we are not going to allow them in Montgomery County.

That's what he means. And you introduced the plan earlier this month aimed at requiring data centers to say how they'll produce or procure 100% clean energy. Do you hope this will restrict data development in the county? Yes, that's the goal of the ZTA. Right now, if you want to have a data center, you can go anywhere in the county, which is wrong.

So my ZTA, which I built, created with Council Vice President Balcon and Councilmember sales, will restrict the locations of the data centers and many other things, as you mentioned. Data centers are out of the time. That's all the time we have. Natalie Fannie Gonzalez and Montgomery County Council President, if you see her out on her bicycle, try to avoid hitting her. Thanks for joining us.

Thank you. If you missed any of the show this week, you can catch a re-earing tonight at 10 p.m. And that's all the time we have. Tom Sherwood, have a great weekend. We'll have a bike ride tomorrow. Thank you for listening and stay safe. I'm Kojo Nand.

The Politics Hour with Kojo Nandi is produced by Matt Blitz. Our supervising producer is Kayla Hewitt. Our engineering team this week is Kellynne Quigley and Adrian Danhauser. Our phone screener is Ruse Secular. For past shows, visit the politics hour.org.