Lindsey Graham's American Legacy of Loyalty, Laughter and Leadership

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He and I did not always see eye to eye. In fact, we battled on a lot of issues. But we also agreed on a whole bunch of issues. And we were close allies fighting for years to confirm conservative judges and conservative justices. We were close allies fighting to defend the Second Amendment. We were close allies fighting. to support the men and women in the military. We were close allies fighting to defend our national security, to stand with our allies, to stand with Israel. And we were close allies standing up to America's enemies, and especially Iran. And Lindsay was someone, he was a force of nature. But his personality, I got to say, if you spent time with Lindsay, I think it was impossible to dislike Lindsay. He was charming. He was funny as hell. Like just witty. For years, I used to say to Lindsay and John Robert F. Kennedy Jr., I'd ask each of them, I don't know which one of you is funnier. And they'd kind of both sort of bow up their chest and get mad at each. And I actually, I do have a theory. I think John Robert F. Kennedy Jr.... is the better stand-up comedian. Like if John Robert F. Kennedy Jr., and John prepares a fair amount of his material, but when he's delivering it, he could be a professional comedian. Yes. But Lindsay was wittier. Just sitting there, he would fire zingers that you're like, it was, and many of them were self-deprecating. He did not take himself too seriously. He would make fun of himself like crazy. He did. And it was, you know, I've traveled abroad with Lindsay multiple times. He loved our country. Absolutely. With a passion. Look, Lindsay wasn't married. He didn't have kids. Every ounce of his life was the Senate. He would travel all over the world. I mean, it's just what he did. He was out. You know, I think it was beautiful and in some ways fitting. So he had just come back from Ukraine. He'd been meeting with President Volodymyr Zelensky. He came back to the United States. Saturday night, he was on the phone with President Trump. And by the way, he was one of President Trump's closest friends. And I say that without exaggeration because Lindsay and Trump disagreed on a lot of issues. But... Trump loves the guy. And it was hard. If you saw him, they're talking about him on Meet the Press. He's like, he kind of had like unfettered access to the White House. He goes, he really did a lot of people. But he was like, Lindsay just came over all the time. Look, Lindsay was like the Trump whisper. He would call Trump. He talked to him early in the morning. He talked to him late at night. He talked to them day after day after day. And Trump didn't always agree with him, but he would listen to him. And Lindsey, when Trump was really mad at something, Lindsay could kind of walk him back off that cliff a little bit. Lindsay was like, and I spent a lot of time with Lindsey and Trump together. And the bond they had was really special.

And it was in some ways almost a perfect distillation of his life that he is in Ukraine. He flies back to the United States. He's on the phone with President Trump. And Sunday morning, he was scheduled to be on Meet the Press. It would have been his 64th appearance on Meet the Press. That's a lot. In politics, by the way, Meet the Press is kind of like Saturday Night Live, if you're like a celebrity. Being on Meet the Press, that's a number that I would love to know what that is ranking compared to other Republicans. You've done it a lot, but it's not 60-something times. No, I've done it a lot, but it's nowhere close to that. And I try to be pretty deliberate. I do Sunday shows. When I've got a particular message that I'm trying to drive, like when there's a reason I try to be quite deliberate about doing it. Lindsay, look, look, I have two teenage daughters. I've got a wife. I've got a family. I want to be back in Texas, you know, with my family. And so a Sunday show, there had to be a reason to do it. Yeah. Lindsay, part of what he was was just a warrior every day. He'd go do the Sunday shows where the news were great. He'd go to the Sunday shows when the news was terrible and like nobody wanted to be out there defending whatever was on fire at that moment. And Lindsay was like, I'll do it. And he would, part of it is he would do it in a cheerful, funny, affable way. If things were a mess, he'd kind of acknowledge, yeah, they're a mess. But, you know, all right. It was, I literally have been, been walking around in a day as much of today. because, I mean, I spent a lot of time with Lindsay and we would go out and I've been texting. You guys, by the way, you shared a picture that popped up on your phone. You guys were recently in Paris. So, so, and this was just, you know how iPhone kind of randomly picks pictures? Yeah. Now, I'm sort of convinced our phones like spy on us and know everything. Yeah, but yeah, that's, that is accurate. I agree with you on that one. But bizarrely enough, today, my iPhone kind of midday popped up a picture. of me and Lindsay and Katie Britt and Eric Schmidt, all four of us in Paris, and we're on a river boat and we're right in front of the Eiffel Tower. And we went for the 80th anniversary of D-Day. It was an amazing trip. It was a powerful, beautiful trip with, you know, we got to see these World War II veterans who it's the very tail end of their journey on earth. And the four of us are just arm in arm. And it was just beautiful. And I've been texting and talking to friends and colleagues, and all of us are just going, this doesn't seem real. Real, yeah. I mean, it's, you know, I did an interview with a reporter today who said, who will fill the void? Who will fill Lindsey Graham's shoes? And my answer is nobody. Nobody, the role he played in the Senate.

He was universally respected, but also universally liked and even adored by people who disagreed with him passionately. Yeah. He could be, by the way, the guy was as effective, a cross-examiner as I've ever seen. Lindsay was a South Carolina trial lawyer. And he could on the Judiciary Committee. You guys were on committees together so people understand. You guys, it wasn't just being like senators together. You guys worked on committees as well. We worked judiciary. We spent thousands of hours together. We were on Senate Armed Services together. We were on foreign relations together. And we just worked hand in hand on a lot of issues. There are issues where we disagreed. Immigration, Lindsay and I were in very different places. But there were a lot of issues. When Lindsay was with you, I don't know that there was a more potent ally in the Senate when he was with you. Yeah. And it would, he could be, look, it was. I can't count there are a hundred different Senate Republican lunches when people were having really passionate, sharp disagreements about something. And Lindsay would stand up and say something and he'd always have a joke and people be double over laughing. There'd be times when people are like screaming at each other, almost ready to like, you know, take a swing at each other. And Lindsay would sort of cut the tension and bring people back to the task at hand. You know, When I'm in D.C. fairly regularly, I'll have dinner with other senators. And there's kind of a group of folks that I invite that are sort of the guys I like hanging out with. And Lindsay was almost the auto invite because if Lindsay showed up at the table, your ribs would hurt from laughing. And by the way, it wasn't just that he was like telling jokes. He was just insightful and smart and he cared. Look, look, whether you agree with him or not. That's one of the things he, I don't think people understand how much he loved this country. You mentioned he didn't have, he wasn't married, didn't have kids. His family was America. His family was defending America. I said this this morning on Fox and Friends, he had a grand, it was a love story with the United States of America. Yes, I'll tell you, it was also with our military. Oh, absolutely. Lindsay spent 33 years in the Air Force, active duty. As a colonel, people don't know that. He rose up to being a colonel. I did tell him, I said, Lindsay, if the clowns at the Pentagon ever try to give you a star, damn it, I'm going to the floor to filibuster it. I ain't calling you, General Graham. You can be Colonel Graham. But just understand there's a hard ceiling. And he basically agreed with me and said, yeah, I sure hope they don't make me a general. They shouldn't. I mean, that's like a classic. He was, and I've been with him both in the U.S. and abroad where we would meet with servic men and women. And he had a connection to the men and women of the armed services, a love affair.

where they loved him and I would see them come up and like hug him and he would, he viewed it as his mission. I'm going to fight for you. If you're defending this country, if you signed up to be in the military, I'm going to fight ferociously for you. And that was, it was real, it was sincere, it was passionate. That was a beautiful thing. You know, I think one of the cool things about his services country, I've got a lot of friends that signed up after 9-11. And in politics, sometimes they get frustrated with people that serve their country and they go to Washington and everything is based on, well, I was in the military and you weren't kind of thing. He didn't use his military service that way. No. And a lot of people didn't realize that, number one, he was a colonel. until he passed away. A lot of people didn't realize he was in for 30 years. A lot of people didn't realize he was in the reserves while serving his country in Congress. He continued to be in the reserves and to continue to do that. But he didn't come in and go, well, I would, I, sir, it wasn't a Trump card for him. And it was, it was, he obviously fought hard for, for military. And he fought hard for things in a state that were related to military and military complex and bases. But it wasn't his number one thing on TV like, well, let me tell you why, because I served and you didn't. He didn't use it that way publicly. Never. And a lot and a lot of people that I know that are in the military and have recently retired that gave 20, 25 years. That's what they liked about him the most. Well, and look, to understand Lindsay, he grew up in modest circumstances in South Carolina. He grew up, his parents ran a bar and a pool hall. And part of to understand Lindsay's magic is he was like the best bartender you've ever seen. who would smile and crack a joke and whether you were celebrating a great thing that happened in your life or you were there weeping because your wife just divorced you or you just had a death in the family. And he could, the charm that he brought, the sort of effortless, I remember years ago I was at a silver elephant dinner, which is the big Republican dinner in South Carolina. He was speaking there. And at the time, Reince Prebus was the chairman of the RNC. And I think Reince was speaking at that dinner. This was a while ago. But I think Reince was speaking at that dinner. I remember Lindsay got up and went, Reince Prebus. What the hell is that? Is not like a French electric car? And like, it brought the house down. I mean, he would throw lines out there all the time. And it was, he also had a special gift for, I would say, earning the trust of and providing really valuable counsel to extraordinarily volatile, larger than life figures, and two in particular, John McCain and Donald Trump. Yes.

Now, look, John McCain, I served a lot of years with John. When I arrived in the Senate, John McCain hated my guts. In fact, he was quoted as saying, I hate his effing guts. Like John and I battled in a bloody way. Yes. Over the years, John and I became friends. But John was, you know, in terms of the history of the Senate, John McCain was one of those legends who have walked the halls of the Senate. And I disagreed with so many positions John had. Yeah. But the man was a war hero. The man fought for a country. He was imprisoned in Vietnam. He was tortured. He denied early release. I mean, he was larger than life. Yes. And he could be volcanic. Like John's temper. was was real it was real oh i had been on the i've been on the other end of that you've been on the other end of that and it is let me tell you i the talking twos that i received earlier in my career were brutal when i got them Lindsay was John McCain's best friend in the Senate. And he was the McCain whisperer. I mean, it was an amazing thing. And Lindsay would kind of soften John's, you know, he'd come in and pound the hell out of someone. And Lindsay'd sort of cut a joke and, like, you know, men the defenses. Make it all better. Yeah. It was Joe Lieberman said he spoke Democrat and Republican well is I think the way he described it. He could, he could, he could, and he could speak McCain, which was really important. And he also speaks Trump. Like, look, their times, just like John McCain, we get really pissed off. Their times, this is no secret, when Donald Trump gets pissed off. And when he's angry and he's like on a tear, Lindsay was, we kind of all say, Lindsay, go on in there and sort of talk him down. And Lindsay could, it was an amazing thing. He'd just sort of laugh a little bit. And, you know, Trump would yell at him. And he'd make Trump laugh. And it would just soften the whole thing. He had a gift for that, and it was not just because he wanted people to like him. He had a gift because he was trying to get these great men. He was trying to move them in what he believed was a positive direction for America. And it was a beautiful thing to watch him do that. I will say, Lindsay, some of you all who listened to Verdict may not know this. Lindsey Graham was the very first guest in the history of verdict. Like when we had just launched this show, this show launched on the first night of the very first Trump impeachment. And the show went from zero. Look, before we launched, we had zero viewers, zero listeners. Yeah. It skyrocketed up the charts, and it became the number one ranked podcast in the world. And as we're doing it, and we would do it every night, this was PB, pre-B, pre-B. This is what I was doing with Michael Knowles, who's a great friend of both of ours. Yeah. And it would be every night after the impeachment trial, we'd go and do a verdict that night and put it out real time.

And Lindsay came. All right, I want you to watch the cold open for our show that Lindsay recorded is our very first guest ever. All right, take a listen. This is, again, the cold open, Lindsey Graham, the first guest on Verdict back in the day. Hello, I'm Senator Lindsey Graham. Welcome to Verdict with Ted Cruz, the number one podcast in the entire country. What is a podcast? Welcome back to Verdict with Ted Cruz. I'm Michael Knowles. I'm joined by not one, but two US senators to help us break down the most shocking day of the entire impeachment trial. Senator Graham, thank you so much for being here. I had to be here. Gentlemen, the last time that we sat down, I was told this impeachment was going to drag on for weeks. We were going to get witnesses. We were going to get John Bolton. We were going to get Hunter Biden. This was going to get long and ugly. I go to sleep. I wake up today. and the senators are voting. No more witnesses. This thing could be over next week. Ted Cruz, what happened? Well, today was a big day, and let me say, Lindsay, thank you. Thank you. I appreciate your coming. This is late at night. We spent all day in the Senate. They're not spending a lot of money on production. Well, this was, you're right, yesterday. If the vote had gone differently today, this trial could have gone on for months. We could have seen it drag on and on and on. And it was a big deal. It was up in the air. And today was the most important vote we've had in the entire. By the way, I love that even there, he cracked a joke. He's like, you're not spending a lot on production. Like he had to get a zinger in there. That's just what made Lindsay Lindsay. Well, and look, at the time. We were filming verdict in a basement studio about a mile from Capitol Hill. And so we drove there after the day of the trial. It was like midnight. And you went to this basement studio. You walked at a dark alley and you walked down these like concrete stairs. And listen, Lindsay and I at the time were not actually that close of friends. We had been more adversaries than friends. Our friendship developed over the years. And as we're walking down the stairs, he's like... I feel like Joe Pesci and Goodfellas, are you getting ready to whack me? Because we're like walking into a dark basement in the middle of nowhere. And he looks around in our studio, we had this shag carpet out of the 1970s. We had these big old brown leather chairs. We had these giant microphones. Kind of like we still have the giant microphones. Yeah. And he says on the show, don't forget the cactus. Don't forget the cactus. Okay, I miss our cactus. Our cactus is still, our cactus is still part of the verdict family. But he looked around and he said this on the podcast. He's like, you guys are the number one podcast in the world? Who the hell is number two? Some guy in a van by the river? Yeah. Like it was, it was side splitting. But that charm, it had real power. Yes. Because it would cause people to listen. It would break through. And listen, he was not always joking. If you were to think...

Senator, you look at that frustration. That was genuine. It wasn't inauthent. It wasn't something that was a pre-planned moment. It wasn't scripted. We see a lot of scripted moments from politicians these days, and some of these hearings are it's all pre-organized, pre-planned protesters involved. That was real and roll. And as you mentioned, and I think you should explain a little bit more, this forced and changed the direction that hearing was going. Well, and listen, Lindsay's career, for a lot of his career, he's been a very bipartisan senator. He's worked with a lot of Democrats, as he noted. He voted to confirm both Justice Sotomayor and Elena Kagan. And the Democrats were all happy with them. They were all lovey-dovey. And so when he says, look, I would never do to them what you're doing to Brett Kavanaugh, that had power to it. I was sitting there at the dais when Lindsay was unloading. And you could have heard a pin drop in the room. You know, the silence when he asked Brett Kavanaugh, are you a gang rapist? And Brett says no. And Lindsay's just silent for about four seconds. And the entire silence, there's not a peep in the hearing room. That was a riveting moment. And by the way, you mentioned Clarence Thomas. Clarence Thomas is on the Supreme Court because during his confirmation hearing, the Democrats did the same thing, which is they sandbagged him with allegations from Anita Hill. And the American people heard Anita Hills testimony in Clarence Thomas's, and by a margin of about two to one, they believe Clarence Thomas. The same thing happened with Brett Kavanaugh. That's why Clarence Thomas got confirmed. That's why Brett Kavanaugh got confirmed. And Lindsay's, that moment there played, I think, a real part in people assessing and saying, wait a second. This is not a real inquiry. This is not a fair assessment. This is a political slime job. These guys had these allegations for weeks. They sat on them. They held them back. This is a drive-by shooting by partisans who just want power. That was what was effective. And I'll tell you, So my mom, Ben, you know my mom. She's, I love my mom. She's 91, about to be 92 in November. She is as conservative it can be. My mom thinks you and I are a little wobbly. She is a rock-ribbed conservative. By the way, I don't know if I ever said this on the show. I've never had more fun hanging out with your mom than your reelection night, watching her be excited. watching her son, not a senator, her son win reelection and just the beaming joy on her face. You weren't there when I, like in that part, you were busy. And she, she came in and she was just so happy. And I was like, this might be my favorite moment of the whole night. So, so my mom prior to the Brett Kavanaugh hearing was not a Lindsey Graham fan.

She mostly knew Lindsay because he and I had battled a lot on immigration. We had very different views on immigration. And so that's, you know, anyone who fights her son, my mom doesn't like. And so when that cross-examination ends, my mother sends me a text and says, okay, I now love Lindsey Graham. And I actually got up a few minutes later and I walked over to Lindsay and I pulled out my phone. I said, Lindsay, here's a text I just got from my mom and I clicked on it. And he cracked up laughing. And then my mother proceeded to go to his website. And to give him $35. Are you serious? That's so cool. I am serious. And I told him, I said, Lindsay, in my entire time in politics, my mother's never contributed to my campaign. And she's giving you money. And he loved that. But it was, look, he could be when he was engaged in a fight, he was as effective, a warrior as you could see. And that was powerful. And it was, he and I worked together. Look, you look last summer, the working families tax cut, the big reconciliation bill, which we've talked a lot about on this podcast, I still think it's the legislation that has the most conservative victories in it of any bill that's ever passed in the law. Yeah. Lindsay. was the chairman of the budget committee and the budget committee plays a critical part in reconciliation. It has to pass the budget resolution to begin with. Lindsay and I worked hand in hand. I don't know that we win that reconciliation battle without Lindsay's leadership as chairman of the budget committee. And he would, there were times when people are, you know, look. Our majority is not always rock solid. You have people that run off this way, run off that way. And to get 50 votes to yes is really, really hard. And Lindsay was awfully good at it. He was good at making friends. I mean, that's one of the lost arts and politics, I think, is just how good he was at making friends and making friends that he disagreed with in his own party and making friends the other side. But he also had just a way of understanding when there's moments to laugh and not. I told this earlier. I was young. I don't think I've ever told you this story. I was, it was probably 2005 or six, seven, somewhere in there. And it was something to deal with Iraq or Afghanistan. And I was on, I think it was Shepard Smith show on Fox back in the day. And they asked me directly about Lindsey Graham and something he'd said. They played the sot. Come out of it. They asked me. And I was pretty blunt. And I was like, I strongly disagree with them. Yada, yada, yada.

I get done. And it was one of those you don't know its coming moments. Welcome to live TV. And so I gave my assessment. I get done. Senator, within probably a minute, I was not out of the seat yet. My phone rings. Now, if you're 20-something and your phone rings and it's a senator, like that's like it's, you know, you answer, right? So I answer it. It's 202 number. And it's Lindsey Graham. I don't know who he got my number from. And I answer, and he starts just unloading on me, telling me why I'm wrong. But it was all a ruse. He was messing with me because he was down the hall in the green room at Fox knowing he was going to see me in 20 seconds. So I'm on the phone walking out of the studio. And it's, you know, the hallway there. It's a short hallway. You go down, make it's on the left. Green room's on the right. And I'm hearing the conversation in my ear delayed. And I'm hearing his voice. And I walk in. And we'd never met before. Like never had met before that moment. And I'm on the phone with him. And he looks at me. He goes, gotcha. And that was it. Like he didn't mind that I was ripping on him. And I walked in there. We laughed. And he talked to me for a minute. But he literally just wanted to mess with me. Like it was like the perfect, you know, joke there. And that's how he was. But like after that, it was hard. He was smart. It was harder for me to go after him on TV because I liked him personally from that moment of him. He could have been a jerk. He wasn't. He saw the humor in the moment and was like, I'm going to mess with this guy. And it was a brilliant political move. And that's who Lindsay was. I don't know a single senator out of 99 other senators. who didn't, didn't like, genuinely like Lindsay and consider him a friend, like all of them. And it was a gift. And by the way, I've been in Senate lunches and we've talked about a lot of those Senate lunches on this podcast where things got raw and bare knuckles. And on foreign policy. Look, Lindsay was an interventionist. He was an aggressive interventionist in the style of John McCain. He believed it. It was honest, but he was very much an interventionist. We've had lunches where Lindsay and Rand Paul would scream at each other. And Lindsey, Rand is very much an isolationist. And they couldn't be farther apart. And by the way, I'm in the middle of both of them. I agree with with with Lindsay about half the time and Rand about half the time. I've also been in lunches where Lindsay and JD Vance. would be screaming at each other. JD is much more of an isolationist and disagreed with Lindsay like on Ukraine. Yeah. I mean, they would go at it where JD Vance wanted us to get the hell out of Ukraine yesterday. Lindsay was passionate on the other side and they would slug it out. You know, JD put out a very kind and gracious tweet today actually telling that story. Say, look, you know, Lindsay has yelled at me, but I respected him and who is my friend.

And actually, I saw a clip today that I'd never seen before. So Blake Masters, Blake Masters ran for Senate in Arizona. I like Blake. I went and campaigned for him. He didn't win. I wish Blake had won, but he did not. And, you know, Blake is more on the isolationist side of things. He's more with Rand and JD. And on Ukraine, he was a vocal opponent of the Ukraine conflict. And it's interesting. Lindsay went to campaign for Blake, and they asked him, well, wait a second. You guys disagree on Ukraine. I want you to listen to Lindsay's response as he's there campaigning for a guy with whom he has sharp disagreements on foreign policy. Give a listen. Remember my race? Remember Lindsaygram.com? Does anybody watch Sean Hannity? I was on Sean Hannity three nights away, Blake. saying, they're going to shoot my dog tomorrow at midnight if you don't give me my dog. I know you're living on cat food, but you can spare a few bucks here. People responded. My opponent raised $132 million against me. The most in the history of the Senate, Matt. Why? Because the cabin. They hated my guts. They wanted to destroy the guy's life. I sort of got in the way. That's the way these people are, right? There's nothing they won't do for power. So the reason people responded to me is you don't have to agree with me all the time, but when there's a fight, I will show up. He shows up. He's not lying when he says that. Yeah, and look, he would joke all the time. Like when he was running for re-election the last time, he would go on Sean Hannity, he'd go on Fox News, and he'd say, Lindsey Graham.com, Lindsey Graham.com, and he was shameless. I mean, he was like, hi, my name is Lindsey Graham.com. He would raise money, and he'd say, if you're a little old lady and you're trying to feed your cat, don't feed your cat tonight, go and give me money instead. And people would crack up, but they would do it. So Blake Masters, who lost that race, he tweeted out that video, but here's what he said in his tweet, which is interesting. Blake said, quote, once when a donor asked, Senator Graham, why are you helping Blake, given how much you two disagree on foreign policy? He replied with a grin. So Blake's wrong about Ukraine. Who gives a shit? We aren't here to talk about how correct I am all the time. We're here to talk about getting the Senate majority because I want to be chairman of my committees. And Blake continues, Lindsay was cheerful and determined and he understood that he played a team sport. May his memory be eternal. That's pure Lindsey Graham. He could disagree with you. And Lord knows he and I did. But it wasn't personally, wasn't angry with you. And that sort of joy. Look, it is amazing the number of times. You look at his relationship with Trump. Lindsay was a huge Trump critic. Yeah. And he ran against him, said he was going to destroy the world. By the way, you look at me. All right. So in the presidential, look, Lindsay ran against Trump, ran against me. And in the course of that campaign, Lindsay said, you know, if you killed Ted on the Senate floor.

and the Senate was the jury, nobody could convict you. I got to admit that. That was funny as hell. I laughed. I'm like, that's a hell of a line. Now, Lindsay ended up, not prevailing in that race, obviously. He dropped out. And after Lindsay dropped out, he endorsed my campaign. So he came and endorsed my campaign, and he campaigned with me for President 2016. And Lindsay said at the time, he and I were doing a fundraiser together. And I stood up and I said, you know, I got to say, this is the first time in my life. I've ever been endorsed by someone who's publicly called for my murder. And that was kind of how Lindsay was. He had, you know, in the same time, you know, he and Trump would battle like crazy, but Trump just liked him. And it was real. And Lindsay liked Trump. Lindsay saw the power. Look, Trump has a cast iron backbone. He has courage. And, and Lindsay saw the historic value of, of, President Trump's strength, and it was really important. Now, I'll give you another story from first term Trump. We were having a dispute about funding the border wall, and the president wanted to sign and was going to sign an emergency declaration and use the emergency powers of the president to shift funding to the border wall. I came up with a different legal theory that would let him build the border wall, let him build every penny of the border wall 100%. but not do it through an emergency declaration. And my concern was, look, if you create the precedent for doing this, the next Democrat president, the next, if we have a president, Bernie Sanders, or President Elizabeth Warren, they're going to declare an emergency on climate change. They're going to declare an emergency on gun violence and use it to justify all sorts of bad policies. So I had a second theory that would have done 100% of the upside without the downside of the bad precedent. And I pitched it to Lindsay and Lindsay was like, yeah, that makes sense. And so Lindsay and I spent a day trying to call the president and pitch this theory. And at the time, the White House staff did not want Lindsay and me to talk to the president. So they were blocking us. They were preventing us from getting through to the president. The oldest trick in Washington is that one right there. And so we were sitting there. It was getting to be maybe seven, seven 30 at night. We were on the Senate floor. And we were both frustrated because for 24 hours, we'd been calling the president. We hadn't gotten through. And I finally said to Lindsay, screw it. Let's get in the car and drive over there. He's like, what? And I'm like, yeah, let's just go over there right now. He's like, all right, let's go. And then oddly enough, a third senator jumped in the car, Ben Sass, who was another friend, but he was just kind of standing there. And Ben's like, oh, I'll go.

And so the three of us drove over. And we're literally, we're not invited. We're uninvited. You're not on the list. And by the way, people need to understand. There's two Bill Gates you go through. And if you're not on the list, they look at you like you're an alien. Okay. So we're driving over. And Lindsey calls and actually gets Trump on the phone as we're driving over. And he's like, yeah, we're coming over right now. And Trump was getting ready to have dinner with Melania. And it was like their first like couples dinner, a romantic dinner in like a month. And Lindsay's like, no, we need to see you right now. And so we go up to the residence and Trump is pissed. He is madder than a hornet because like his whole date night has been blown up by the, by us going over to the White House. And so we come over there and we're up in the residence. And Trump brings up a couple of lawyers from the White House counsel's office. And they're smart guys, but they were on the other side of this. And we begin arguing. And I got to say, look, Lindsay could judge the prevailing wins really quickly. And he could see that Trump was not buying what I was selling that particular night. So Lindsay very quickly abandons me. He just jumps out and he goes and sits with Trump. And I'm arguing with this lawyer from the White House counsel. I mean, we are slugging it out. It was a bare-knuckle fight. And Lindsay turns to Trump and said, who do you think is winning? How do they do it? And like Trump's kind of laughing and they're almost like color commentators watching us have this legal argument. And then in the middle of it, Trump calls one of the staff of the White House and says, bring us some of those pigs in a blanket, those little hors d'oeuvres. So they bring a plate of pigs in the blanket. And this goes on for like three hours. No. So you guys straight up Trump the date night. Yeah, it blew up the date night. We ended up not being persuasive that night, although I will say Lindsay cut me loose so fast. And he jumped. But he didn't, like, he admitted afterwards. He's like, yeah, you weren't winning, so I wasn't going to be with that. He's like, I'll be behind you, way, way behind you. Right behind you. Yeah, around the corner. But it was the sort of thing, that's, that was very much Lindsey Graham. And it's part of why. Trump listened to him because he didn't win every argument, but he was there to go again and to go again. And it was really effective. And I'll tell you where it mattered enormously. There's no area Lindsay and I worked more closely on than Iran. And standing up. to the incredible danger to America if the Ayatollah ever gets a nuclear weapon. I think it's an existential threat to America. I think if the Ayatollah who chants death to America gets a nuclear weapon, I think the odds are unacceptably high that hundreds of thousands or even millions of Americans would be murdered. And Lindsay agreed with that.

And he and I worked hand in hand over and over and over again, talking with President Trump every week, sometimes every day, saying you're exactly right to stand up to Iran. The president has said repeatedly Iran will never get a nuclear weapon. There will be zero enrichment. And Lindsay was an incredible ally. that I was fighting alongside, and the president listened to us, which is part of why we've seen, seen the president's incredible strong leadership, taking out Iran's military capacity and stopping them from getting nuclear weapons. That was one of the most important legacies Lindsay ever had. It's really incredible. We're going to do something really fun this week as well. That first podcast that you did, your first guest was Lindsey Graham. We are going to put that out this week. So look for that on the feed as well. Senator, I'm so glad you got to talk about your friend. I mean this so sincerely. I'm so sorry for your loss. When you lose a friend, I've lost too many. You lose them, especially a sudden like this. It is gut-wrenching. Hug of your family. Hug your friends. Call your friends. Check on your friends. I say that often to people. You just never know. And I'm glad you got to spend so much quality time with him. Well, he will be missed. He left a legacy that was extraordinary. And I will say whether you agreed with him or disagreed with him. Lindsay loved this country. And he devoted every waking moment of his life to fighting for this country. That was his mission. And I admired that. I admired that it was real. It was genuine. And he made a profound difference. It is a good reminder. Lindsay was just 71 years old. He was full of energy and vigor, to be honest, if I were to pick one of my colleagues who was not going to make it, not going to make it. Lindsay would not have been on the list. He had the energy that he was unstoppable in energy. And it's a good reminder to all of us, that none of us are guaranteed to be here tomorrow. So hug your family, hug your kids. Say thanks to God for the privilege of living at a time of consequence and making a difference in our country. And I will say this, Lindsey Graham made an enormous difference for our country. Amen to that. As always, thank you for listening to Verdict with Senator Ted Cruz, Ben Ferguson with you. Don't forget to download my podcast, and you can listen to my podcast. Every other day, you're not listening to Verdict or each day when you listen to verdict afterwards. I'd love to have you as a listener to, again, the Ben Ferguson podcast, and we will see you back here on Monday morning.

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