Data Centers on Federal Land? Plus, a Billion-Dollar Water Scandal, and More Driverless Cars in Vegas

All right, I'm here today with reporters Tabith Mueller from the Nevada Independent and Michael M.J. Lyle from the Nevada Current. But before we get into today's show, we know a lot of you love to travel and summer is the right time to do it. So we don't want you to miss the latest episode of Citicast's national podcast. Your city could be better. There, our Citicast CEO, David Plotz, interviewed airport expert Scott Keyes about what makes an airport the perfect airport. They got into airport accessibility and affordability. and highlighted amenities that make an airport feel truly representative of its city. So check it out here or wherever you get your podcasts. Also, too, don't forget to check out my episode on Your City Could Be Better with David Plus, where we actually talked about Las Vegas's water situation and how we do such a great job of recycling water here in the Valley. And that's obviously top of mind because today we're talking a lot about water, which got me thinking for Tabitha and MJ, you guys, I feel like we've all got kind of cool jobs here working in media. I wonder if you would ever want to be in control of what happens with the water here in the... Nevada. Absolutely not. Opening yourself up for lawsuits and all these things, random firings, no fun whatsoever. So with that, Tabithel, let's kind of dive into it because you've gone in depth with a lot of reporting into kind of what's going on in a water lawsuit that could cost taxpayers, billions, all this stuff. Help us kind of dissect what exactly is going on here. So I'm going to first give a shout out to Alan Haleigh, who did a beautiful write-up recently in the Las Vegas Review Journal, highlighting kind of the Joe Lombardo campaign advisor who's leading this water lawsuit and the billions that they're seeking from Nevada. That's with a beat. Billions. Billions. Right. Not millions. Like there's a lot of money on the line. And I think it's one of the things that's really hard. is that water is so, so important. And I think everyone needs to really pay attention to this and other issues that have been going on. And I think that what's kind of important about this is that this trial over water rights at Coyote Springs is kind of a... It was once a proposed satellite city northeast of Las Vegas. And it's been a long saga. I mean, it could take you a while. My former colleague, Daniel Rothberg, wrote extensively about this trial as well. But essentially what happened is that the Nevada State Engineers Office, which regulates water rights, sort of determined that there not enough groundwater exists to build the development, even though the developers owned water rights to support it. And then the developer sued the state asking for compensation for that devaluation of the land. And I think that's like the important sort of information about this lawsuit that you need to understand. And what I think is really interesting is that this lawsuit came.

And then late last year, Governor Joe Lombardo's administration fired state engineer Adam Dan Sullivan. And it's the first time since 1981 that we've had a state engineer fire. A long time ago, which is so crazy. Yeah. Right. And I should say, Governor Joe Lombardo's administration fired the state engineer, not Governor Joe Lombardo. His office has been really, you know, has been really insistent about that. And it was, you know, the... the person who oversees the agency, former state senator, James Zettelmeyer. You might have heard his name most recently in his unsuccessful bid for Congress in the northern part of the state. And what is really unique about this, like I said, it's the first time since 1981 that you've had a state engineer fired. And the state engineer is supposed to be this. non-apolitical role, right? You're not supposed to be influenced by governors or other folks. Typically, you serve under multiple governors. And this role requires expertise in very complicated water laws. And it typically ends in retirement. Correct me if I'm wrong here. Essentially, what this whole lawsuit, though, does kind of come down to is basically whether or not water rights are classified as property, right? Because, you know, the developer and all of them are arguing that the state effectively took their property. without compensation. Am I hearing that right? Absolutely, yes. Okay, gotcha. So, MJ, as you kind of take stock of this entire story and what's going into it, what's your reaction just to kind of the convolutedness, if I can create a word here, of everything that's going on? It's funny because it feels almost like a very Nevada and politic-y thing that happens. Like, just because there's so many overlapping names and overlapping people like a tie to this story, which is this very common Nevada. I hate that, like, my mind immediately jumps to the election side of it because, like, everything that's coming out right now is just like, what is this, how is it's going to be, in fact, the election. And even though water should be a top priority of concern for elected officials up and down the ballot, including the governor of the state, I don't know how big of a role this is actually going to play, to be honest, because, like, even though it is super important, it's a lot, the biggest thing on voters' minds. And so that's what I'm curious, like, Even though this is, there is a lot of eyebrow raising information in this saga, and this never-ending saga, like, I'm curious if, like, at the end of the day, what this is, if this is going to have any impact on, like, on Joe Lombardo's election bid. Tabitha, I'm curious in your reporting or any of that stuff, you come across anything, whether it's officials talking about it, voters, you name it, like people that are kind of saying, hey, this is a bigger deal than people are realizing. Well, and I think that that's... It's interesting because this is such water is so critical to our state. We are the driest state in the country. You know, if you live in Las Vegas, you're constantly thinking about water. And northern Nevada, too, we're not immune. But, but I think that what is really interesting about this is all of the connections that are in the story, right? And so we already mentioned former state senator James Settlemeyer, but then also Mark Hutchison. who was, he took over as the lead attorney for this developer that suing the state. He chaired Governor Joe Lombardo's election campaign in 2022. And then he was also a former lieutenant governor. And he's really been connected to Joe Lombardo. Now the Joe Lombardo, you know, he said in interviews with, with different outlets that like, oh, I haven't, you know, had any questions or, you know, haven't had conversations about it with Joe Lombardo. But it does sort of raise sort of some eyebrows around that.

And I think the other piece of this is that after. Joe Lombardo's administration fired the state engineer Adam Dan Sullivan. They tapped in Joe Caciopo, who was the principal engineer for one of Nevada's top water rights firms, Resource Concepts, Inc. And reporting from Haleigh, sort of indicates that the firm's client list includes developers that were seeking to establish Coyote Springs, right? And so it all, it's all very interesting because there's a lot of lines and you feel a little bit like a crazy person in a back room. putting pins on the wall, you know, and building out this map of connections. But back to your original question, which was the political implications of this, I don't think we know yet, right? We really haven't seen many advertisements come out in the governor's race from Attorney General Aaron Ford's campaign because they're the... They're the top contender against Joe Lombardo in the general election. So I don't know if it's going to be something that's played up as a campaign issue. Attorney General Aaron Ford really hasn't spent that much money or his campaign and supporters haven't spent that much money on advertising. A lot of his campaign has focused on the economy tying Joe Lombardo to Trump and really hammering that. So it's sort of anyone's guess as to where this ends up politically. And I am so fascinated to see how this goes because we've heard some folks talk about that it could be a bit of a ripple effect of any time things like this are denied by the state water engineers and things like that, or they'd be worried about possibly making rulings and costing the state even more billions. So again, it seems like a bit of a slippery slope. We'll have to kind of wait and see how that goes.

Speaking of slippery slopes and stuff like that, too, one thing we're trying to figure out is how the heck to handle data centers and that whole process as well. And there's a battle going on in Boulder City right now as well, MJ, but it seems like a data center might have found a bit of a loophole, if we can call it that, to kind of expedite their process. Absolutely. And real quick, you're like... All these water puns that you're not even picking up on, like dive in and ripple effect. I'm just like, come on. Sorry, it is unbelievable. I got them all in the bag, you know. They just come rushing out. Yeah. Yeah. Open the floodgates. I love it. So yes, in Boulder City, as we've seen across the state, as we've seen across the nation, there has been a fight over data centers. Right now, a developer called TownSight Solar 2 LLC proposed an 88.5 acre data center and sought approval for Boulder City. But however, the application was pulled this week as the developer is now pursuing on federal land, as you mentioned. So as I've kind of talked about cities and across the state and across the nation are kind of outrage with the number of data centers that are going up in their communities and the prevalence of data centers. And so there's been a lot of pushbacks and a lot of public comment of people just coming out and just opposing these centers. And we saw that in Boulder City. And actually back in May, the Planning Commission voted to recognize amend that the city council actually reject this proposal when it did come before them in July. However, the... company is bypassing that altogether and now deciding to build on federal land. Just kind of for a little bit of background, the Bureau of Land Management in 2003 completed an environmental review of 80 acres of land for a solar project. This is according to reporting from Jennifer Solis at the Nevada current, my colleague. But in June, the BLM amended the right of way to actually allow for the data center. That actually comes from an executive order that came out of the White House last year that actually is looking at accelerating permitting of data centers on federal land. So that's how this loophole is kind of coming about. Yeah. And I think it's wild to that point, though, just to kind of jump in, is that, like, you know, again, that was zoned, you know, not for a data center, for a solar farm. And so, like, I feel like, even though I understand that, you know, federal land operates a little differently in terms of the process with the public and everything, like, how is the conversation really not being had about like, hey, how can you just kind of like transition it over and shuffle the papers over and be like, oh, yeah, data center, solar farm, pretty much the same. same thing. Yeah, and so the executive order made it way, but that question is being brought up of how did we circumvent

public notice and how do we circumvent all these other things. And actually, Representative Dina Titus sent out a letter this week asking to be on them to actually answer those questions of how come you did not have any type of public input. And why is this going, this process going through without any type of transparency? And so there's a lot of questions that are coming out of like how they're able to circumvent this process and kind of blindside not only the Boulder City Council, but also the residents of Boulder City. Like this is still in their backyard. It's just now on federal land. and they have less of a say of kind of if it goes there. Right now, the city attorney does have a chance to file an appeal, which I believe he has to try to prevent this, but there's... kind of nothing really blocking them now that this is an open door or an open avenue for them. Yeah, it's a really interesting development. I know in Oklahoma, too, some of the ways that data centers are trying to like sidestep as well as going after like native lands and things like that as well, you know, in different stuff like that. It's so fascinating to see how it's being done in the worst way possible. But, Tabith, I'm curious because there's been a lot going on, obviously, with data centers up in northern Nevada where you're at. How do you dissect what's going on up there versus what's going on down? here in southern Nevada as it relates to data centers? Well, I think if you look statewide, the one issue that maybe is polling terribly, data centers. I mean, voters really, really don't like them. And what we've seen here is enormous pushback against data centers. And I think you're seeing it down south as well, right? And I think that if you want to talk about an issue that is going to be part of the election this year. Data Centers is one of them, right? When it seems like it hasn't been yet, though, right? Like, why hasn't it yet? Because that's what's weird to me is you would think it's such a thing that's drawn the people out. And it's hard enough to get people out and about. And this has definitely gotten them out in droves. Well. I would argue that, like, we've seen it come up in the governor's election, right? We've already asked the gubernatorial candidates, where do you stand on data centers? We have an article outlining that. I also think that, like, you saw it with the Reno City Council, right? We, like, in June, the Reno City Council paused the approval of future data center developments until August 27. Like, they're like, we're just going to put a pause on it. They're like, it's not our problem. And I think it's really interesting because, like, conveniently, the pause happened as people on the city council were, like, running for positions, right? Mayor, other things. And I think that what kind of city staff have said is during that pause, they're working on potential changes to city codes on, like, regulating centers, which have historically been treated as warehouses by the city. And I think those changes could cover everything from noise and air quality effects to community benefit agreements. So we'll see what actually ends up happening, but I think that that was a way to sort of punt it and be like, we're not. We'll do with this later. Yeah. There is a legislative question at play, like about like the tax abatements that are allowed to actually be used to incentivize the development of these. And so that is a legislative question. And I do think the kind of going to the wise is not coming up. I think the tide is turning and it's turning rapidly. And we're seeing.

Not just Democrats coming out against this. I mean, we have Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez of New York and Bernie Sanders have introduced a moratorium on data centers. But it's actually getting support from Republicans across the nation. I mean, a lot of Republicans are breaking with Trump's notion to kind of just build, build, build as far as data centers and kind of rejecting this idea of building more on federal land. But we are seeing more and more Republicans coming out against this. And so I think it is going to be. I don't think there's any way that you could actually get around this as time goes progresses and we get deeper and deeper into the midterm election. Well, and I also think, I mean, like, obviously we haven't had the 2027 legislative session yet. And data centers weren't a massive discussion in 2025. But I would expect that come 2027 and then the election year after 2027. Data centers, there's going to be pushed back on different ways. You might see more campaign dollars and donations. You might see more people voting against somebody because of their record on this issue. Maybe we don't even see it this election cycle in some ways because it's a little early for that, but we see its effects moving forward too. Yeah. And I think that's where the pauses have come into a bit is like, hey, let's get a handle on this. Because I mean, I know in a lot of the different projections and stuff, particularly by NV Energy, they say by 2046, data centers. could account for 64%. of the energy's electricity scale, sales that is. So like, you know, obviously that's going to be a massive jump up from what is 5% today in terms of how much of the sales it makes up. You know, so it's going to be a big, big topic of discussion as things move on. But I think, again, as we put these people in positions of power, the conversation needs to be had now by a lot of folks. And they've got to really press the issue with that any chance they get the opportunities, you know, to step in front of them to kind of before we wrap up and move on to the next topic, though, like just to go back to what we were talking about initially with this, like, Do you think we're going to see these data centers try and go the federal land route instead or, again, target these native lands? I think we've got like 1.6 million acres of native lands here in Nevada as well. I could see that kind of coming into play. Do you think that'll be more common? Oh, absolutely. I mean, we're already seeing that right now. I mean, the Ohio dispatch report it last month that they're looking at a 500 billion. That's with a B. Again, billion with a B. It's always a billion. Yeah, yeah. A data sitter on federal land. I mean, we're seeing these proposals happening already across the country where they are kind of. bypassing cities to look directly at mainland. And New York Times actually did have some reporting out about the prevalence of also going after tribal lands, too. So I think they are looking at ways to kind of circumvent the local process to build these centers. And so absolutely, like, there is going to be a bigger push for federal land, especially when you have, the president has really supported this. It's kind of going back to the executive order. And so, and once kind of.

push for development of more of this. And so I think with that incentive, it's going to be... something we see more. Yeah, and being aware of water rights and other pieces of it for sure. Yeah, and the trickle-down effect of water and everything like that, even though we have the evaporative cooling ban here, you know, where does that eventually go to? Does it get shifted to the power plants in terms of using more water there and all that stuff? At some point, the water needs to be used. We all need to know and learn more about all of that, but also too, like the elected officials need to figure out a way to do this the right way too. So, hopefully they figure it out. All right, so we'll put the water talk on hold for a second here and now dive into, I guess, more technology, so kind of the same conversation in a sense, but we're talking about autonomous vehicles in general. Waymo, one of those autonomous car companies just announced that it's soon going to begin testing fully driverless rides here in Las Vegas. To start, though, the driverless rides will only be available to Waymo employees, but this is a significant step forward to eventually offering public rides here in southern Nevada. And when that happens... Las Vegas will actually be among the first markets to get access to Waymo's brand new sixth generation vehicle, which they call the Ohio. It basically has more like creature comforts and things like that for folks that are going to be riding in it. But it is worth noting that Waymo isn't the only Robotaxy player in the Valley either. If you've been around town, you've seen plenty of them. Amazon-owned Zooks has already been testing their driverless cars. here in Las Vegas. And they actually have been offering free rides down on the strip as well. If you want some more info on that, check out our website. Our newsletter editor Rob Cachery's Road in one of them and kind of detailed what that was like, a really interesting read there. And they, though, are still waiting on federal exemption, Zooks is, you know, before it can actually start charging for rides because their vehicles don't have steering wheels or pedals, which is still kind of frightening to me that there isn't even some form of that. If somebody needed to jump in and like save the day or something like that, I don't know. But overall, just with regards to the whole Waymo situation. No official launch date has been announced for public Waymo rides here in Vegas. But with Waymo, Zooks, like we mentioned, and now we've seen Tesla's robotaxies being spotted around town. The Valley is quickly becoming one of the top testing grounds for driverless vehicles. And just tech in general, too. We're going to be dropping a podcast on all the technology that Las Vegas Metro PD is using soon next week. You know, we talk about the data centers and everything like that. We're kind of like the playground for technology. How do you guys feel about Vegas? I guess, do I want to say being used as test dummies for all this stuff? Like, is this a good thing or a bad thing? I think one of the concerns, which actually was kind of laid out a little bit by April Jeremy Corbyn-Gernis, Deputy Editor of Natickernet. current friend of the pod. Shout out April. She laid out a story back in March that looking at the lack of regulations here, and it's kind of hard for us as a state to get ahead of like the launch of robert taxis until at least the 2027 legislative session. So I think it kind of makes me a little bit uncomfortable that.

We are a testing ground when we don't have a lot of mechanisms to regulate safety and standards until a little bit later. And so I think we're kind of putting the cart before the horse or I don't know what's the metaphor for this, the robot before the autonomous vehicle. And so I'm a little weary about us rolling and being the playground and we don't have kind of the legislative mechanisms to actually think about some of the safety regulations that need to ensure. Just the safety of all of us. Tabith, are you sitting up there in Northern Nevada laughing at us? Or how are you analyzing this whole deal? Oh, you know, it's great. I don't have to worry about the same problems. But it's interesting because when I do hop over to San Francisco, because it's actually... kind of closer in some ways. Yeah, they've got tons of them up there, obviously. Well, and that was so wild as I went to a wedding in San Francisco, and we were leaving the wedding venue, and somebody's like, we should order a Waymo because we could ride in a driverless car. And I said, as somebody, I was like, I'm terrified that that's not happening. And so it's really funny because half the group went with the Waymo and half the other group went, you know, with a typical Uber or, you know, a lift. And we got, we both made it to the destination intact in one piece. And I think it'll be interesting to see how it like plays out. But I think regulations are going to be really critical when it comes to this. Like how are we regulating? Who's, you know, who is responsible if something happens? How do we ensure those, you know, those things? And I will say the way that AI works. And the reason that you're not seeing this in say Reno or other cities is they do have to map the cities almost. And they like, and so like it'll be interesting. you know, the growth factor and how that works out. Yeah, well, and I know part of it too up in Reno, at least our newsletter to Rob was talking about like the topography and things like that. You know, here in Vegas, obviously a lot of our roads and the way it's set up is a little easier to be able to digest and stuff. Yeah. A lot of the straight roads, not the winding roads and things like that. So that's one of the reasons why we've been targeted as a playground in essence, you know, our testing ground. Can they navigate our orange cones though? That's a good question. The traffic. We've seen them stalling out on the strip some of these autonomous vehicles. I don't know about navigating the cones and things like that. But, you know, Tabitha, to your point about the friends going to the wedding where half went with the Uber that had a driver in it, the other, you know, going with the driverless vehicle, do we trust? the AI vehicles, the autonomous vehicles, less than we do an actual human driver, because there are some pretty bad human drivers here in Las Vegas and all over the place, really. Yeah. Well, and I think that's the other thing, too, especially as a woman. Like, sometimes if it's late at night, like, I will order the, like, woman, like, Uber or Lyft just because it feels safer for me. It's a fair point, yeah. And so, like, if it's an option, we're like, oh, you know, and, and like. Will it feel safer in that sense as well with a driverless car? Like you're not going to get harassed by somebody. You're not going to run into a situation where you might, you know, not be in the safest places. And they've put in a lot of regulations and safety features and all of that. But I think that's something to also think about and consider. But yes, there are some really terrible drivers in Las Vegas and in Reno. I'm not going to leave us out of that.

Can't we just do mass transit? Can't we just have, like, like other? They're trying. Can't we just have that? I will say this. Visiting Vegas without a car is so inconvenient. And it's also really expensive. Like, Ubering around the city is incredibly expensive. And I assume it's the same when people come from down south up to Reno. And, like, what a great marketing gimmick to be like, you get a free ride on the strip if you ride in our driverless vehicles, right? Like, I have to say, like, from a marketing. perspective that's brilliant because it is so expensive to take uber on the strip or anywhere fair At least with Zooks, I know Rob was saying that, like, you still have to plug in your credit card information, you know, to have it on file. Obviously, if something were to happen, but it's also so it's there. Hopefully they get you hooked on it and eventually they're going to start charging for it. The big question to your point is going to be how much cheaper is it than an Uber or some of these other ones? Do they have surge pricing? That's what I want to know. I don't want to be hit with surge pricing, you know, on these autonomous vehicles either. That would be something would really piss me off. And I think Michael is right. Like, how does this affect the gig economy, right? So many people rely on Uber and Lyft and Uber Eats and those things to make side. I mean, either is your primary income or a side income or to supplement incomes because the cost of living is so high right now. All right, now it's time for us to dive into our members-only bonus segment. This week we're dissecting why there's such a massive difference in ad spending between Joe Lombardo and Aaron Ford. Tabitha and MJ will help me explain how that could impact the election and why Joe Lombardo's camp has been throwing down so much cash so early in this process, but you're only going to hear this discussion if you're one of our neighbors. So if you want to unlock this bonus segment and the many other great perks you get by becoming a Citigast Las Vegas neighbor, head to membership.citycast.fm slash Las Vegas to sign up. So fascinating stuff to see as everything moves on. But definitely a fun conversation today is we really hit on a little bit of everything. So thanks to both of you guys for joining us today. Thanks for having me. Thanks for having us.

That's all for today here on CityCast, Las Vegas. Our executive producer is Leila Mohamed, our creative producer, Jacob Steve Scalise. Our newsletter editor is Rob Catchelries, and I'm your host, Jesse Merrick. Music is by OG Moose. Our ad music is by Sven Linvall and Sarah from the Epidemic Sounds via Getty Images. We record this show on the traditional homelands of the Nahuvi, the southern Paiute people. If you enjoyed the show, why not tell a friend? Rate the show, leave us a review, and subscribe to our free morning newsletter as well. And don't forget, you can support this show and get great perks by becoming a Citicast Las Vegas neighbor at membership.citycast.fm slash Las Vegas. We'll be back Monday morning with more news from around the city. Until then, have a great weekend and take care.