Ben McAdams on Data Centers, Unions, and Affordability

Today on CityCast Salt Lake. For the first time in eight years, Utah is almost certainly sending a Democrat to the U.S. Congress. And the party's nominee is Ben McAdams. So we asked him about some key issues. It's Monday, June 29th. I'm Ali Viata, and here is what Salt Lake's talking about. Former Congressman Ben McAdams, sure to be a congressman yet again. You are the Democratic nominee for Utah's first congressional district, which includes Salt Lake City, Bit of West Valley, Bit of Cottonwood Heights. Welcome back to CityCast. Thank you, Allie. Great to be back. The last time you were on here, we were talking about this new district coming to exist, and now it exists, and you are very likely going to represent it. It didn't take the Associated Press very long to call your race on Tuesday night. Who was the first person you called? We were all in a back room. We had an election night watch party. You know, my races have never been called early. My congressional races always took to December to call the race. And so we went back into, we had a watch party at public roasters downtown. We went back into a back room to analyze their results. Usually this takes hours. And so we're back there. And we pulled it up and the AP had called it. Yeah. Well, what I'm seeing in response to your win are comments from people online who are like, we finally have this safe Democratic district. Kamala Harris won it by 24 percentage points. And we ended up with a moderate candidate. Now, the reason I ask you about the whole moderate versus progressive thing in part is because democratic politics are... moving to the left. I saw this Gallup poll, maybe you saw it too this week, that only 42% of American Democrats view capitalism favorably, while 66% have a positive view of socialism. I think that is a big indicator. So I want to know, like, as the progressive wing of the Democratic Party grows more organized, which they surely will, how are you going to keep progressives in your district happy? Well, I would say to you what I've said to voters throughout this. First of all, the district is a candidate's own peril that they oversimplify the district. We knew coming in that it is not that easy to just put every voter into a... binary box of liberal or moderate, right? The district is, by voter registration, it's 25% Democrat, 35% Republican. The rest are independent and affiliated, so no one's going to win this election without building a coalition, right? And the district, you know, voters like me and like so many voters,

depends on the issue you know on on social issues i'm i'm pretty progressive i have been all along when you look at like economic issues i do believe that government should live within its means and should act in a way that's fiscally responsible and i think that every voter has their own set of opinions and they're complex and they differ from issue to issue. And so we treated voters as individuals, not as a number and took my message to them, listened to them, what issues they were talking about. We engaged with the voters as smart individuals who were making informed decisions. And, you know, the line that I used a lot during the primary was being progressive has to mean making progress. It's not enough, you know, people who are hurting, people who are working two jobs and a side hustle and can't afford the rent, can't afford to put gas in the car and food on the table. They don't care what a politician says or what you're tweeting about. They care what actually changes. And they want to know that you have a plan to address it. And so we reminded them of the long track record I have of successes working in a difficult environment. As a Democrat in Utah, I led the charge for Utah Democrats to tackle some of our most difficult issues. And, you know, um, It's one thing to talk about the issues you fought and lost. I talked about the issues where I fought and won, whether it's passing LGBTQ non-discrimination protections in Utah, expanding Medicaid and expanding access to health care for tens of thousands of Utahans, bringing down the cost of housing, you know, creating a more urban, walkable environment, expanding mass transit, expanding, you know, access to... to early childhood and childcare services that are affordable. I've done it all and I've delivered success. And people want to see what you're going to do, what you're going to get done at the end of the day. Yeah. I mean... I think the line about being progressive has to actually mean making progress is pretty damn good. I heard you say it at convention. We actually talked about it on this show. I also think that you and I both know that like the progressive wing of the party has a pretty clear platform. It's things like abolishing ice, single payer, healthcare, free pre-K, protecting the right to an abortion. I'm interested to hear you say that you think on social issues you're actually pretty progressive because some of the things that came up related to whether... or not you are a progressive or a moderate on this campaign really did have to do with social issues, things like an abortion bill supported by the Conservative Heritage Foundation that you were one of just three Democrats to push for a vote on, things like that. Are you suggesting that, like, you have grown more progressive on social issues? No, look, I think my track record is clear. I have always supported a woman's right to choose. In the state legislature, I had 100% rating from Planned Parenthood. And as a mayor, I worked closely with Planned Parenthood to make sure women had access to reproductive health care services. And as a member of Congress, even representing the most Republican district in the country that Democrats held, I consistently supported a woman's right to choose. Look, everybody has personal opinions about any issue under the sun.

But my position has always been, it doesn't matter what I think, the issues especially around reproductive health and women's health care, that's between the woman and her doctor. And other people she may trust to help her with that decision. But the last opinion that should be in the medical room is that of any politician. And that has always been my position. And, you know, I think... In campaigns, you know, opponents are going to say what they're going to say. I understand that. But I think I would just look at my track record. And that's what we did in this campaign. It reminded people of my track record. And look, I think Democratic Party needs to move past this era where we are nuking each other into a nuclear winter over how to get people universal access to health care. And while Republicans are dismantling democracy to enshrine their power. Look, if our differences are the Affordable Care Act, Obamacare or Medicare for All, we all agree that universal health care, that health care is a right, people should have access to affordable quality care. And our differences are how do we get there? And this isn't something we should be nuking other Democrats into non-existence over differences like that. Yeah, there are different opinions. At the end of the day, my opinion is what can get done? What can we move from idea into action? to provide relief for the people who are really struggling for the people who are counting on us. And that has to take priority above anything else. Do you support a single payer system? Is that something you would vote for if there was a vote? Look, I don't think that's the best way to get to health care. I support a public option. I think everybody should have, we should have a basic social safety net that nobody is trying to decide between paying the rent and putting food on the table and getting access to health care. I grew up in a family where, you know, my mom had a chronic health condition and we knew medical debt. Because of medical debt, we had the power shut off because we couldn't pay our bills. Our home was in foreclosure. I know what it's like to strike. with health care. And look, I believe that people should have every American should have access to basic health care. So we need a strong social safety net. But do I believe that we should go to every American and say, we're taking you off the health care plan that you've chosen? We're putting you on a government health care plan instead. My concern is what happens then when that government health care plan is run by Robert F. Kennedy Jr.. and Donald Trump, and they decide that they don't want you to have access to vaccines and they don't want you to have reproductive. health care or gender affirming care. So no, I don't believe that the best answer to get universal health care is Medicare for all. I believe it is a public option. So we have a core social safety net. It's guardrails on abuses from the insurance industry and the health care industry. So we can rein in those abuses. And then we let people choose the plan that works best for them. I want to talk about data centers because. They played a big role this election season. It feels like it might be the biggest story in our country. We saw the Senate president, Stuart Adams, after 16 years in the legislature, lose in a primary election, which I think a lot of us perceive as backlash to the Box Elder County Data Center proposal that he pushed really hard for. Even members of the commission in Box Elder look like they're going to lose their seats as sort of a repercussion of pushing for that data center.

There has been a lot of talk in this campaign about your ties to data centers too. You have stock in one in Utah that was reported by the Salt Lake Tribune. An anti-regulation AI SuperPack spent a lot of money on ads for you. We know we've clarified on this show that super PACs can't coordinate with campaigns. But there are people in your district who are skeptical about how you will hold this industry accountable. So what is your plan? How are you going to prove that to your constituents? I don't support the Box Elder Data Center. I've said that very clearly from the very beginning. For many reasons, the process, you know, nothing that big should be done behind closed doors without the public having a chance to weigh in. When we did have a chance to weigh in, look, it's entirely fueled by fossil fuels. It's going to increase pollution. It's going to have the water use is inexcusable when we are in a drought and the Great Salt Lake is... teetering on the edge of, you know, going away, and this is about the air we breathe, that's a place we call home, I clearly opposed the Box Elder Data Center. And look, when I was mayor of Salt Lake County in 2016, I led an effort to stop a similar data center in West Jim Jordan because of its water use, because it was a bad deal for the taxpayers, and we stopped it. But look, I am proud of the fact that a couple of years ago, my firm does some advising on clean energy. And a data center in southern Utah came to us and they said, hey, look, we want to build a data center. We know that to do it responsibly, we have to have renewable energy as part of our proposal. I looked at this data center. They had been six years in the public process going and negotiating with public and holding public hearings and talking to commissioners, going through the front door in a very transparent fashion. I wasn't part of that process. but I saw that it had happened. It's a zero-water use data center. And then they said, hey, we want to have renewable energy as part of this project. That seems to me like a good actor. And I'm proud of my work helping to advance renewable energy and to make sure that facility wasn't relying exclusively on fossil fuels that they were doing it in a more responsible fashion. Because they were a startup, they didn't have... They didn't have cash. So they paid my firm a few thousand dollars in stock. But I'm proud of that work. And I'm not going to apologize for helping a project become better to use renewable energy and to be a responsible actor. This technology infrastructure is coming. This technology infrastructure of the future, it's coming. And how do we make sure that it's done in a way that's responsible? And I think we need to not just fall in love with another hashtag of, you know, data center moratorium. But let's be thoughtful about it. I think the voters are smart. We expect our public officials to be smart too. But you don't think that a moratorium is thoughtful if it's inherently a pause to consider what it does look like to do this well? Look, first of all, it's not going to happen, right? We fall in love with our hashtags and we say it's this or nothing. And then the result is it's nothing, right? So look, I think what we need is we need to... find the right approaches. What do we want to have happen? You know, we can debate a moratorium for 10 years while data centers are built. I'd rather say, I want to make sure that when a data center is built, it is using renewable energy. And I think you can get consensus around that. But I think a moratorium is just playing into the fears of people who look, don't want AI. And I'm with them. I wish we could stop AI. I wish we could just make it disappear.

But that's not reality. I think you're promising something that isn't reality to people who are afraid of it. But let's also recognize that AI has the potential to cure cancer. And let's empower that. So let's act responsibly. But that takes thoughtfulness, right? It takes engaging with the voters in a thoughtful manner. And it requires being a thoughtful policymaker instead of just going with an oversimplified hashtag that plays to, I think, the simplest of emotions, but isn't really responsible governing. It seems like any regulation of AI is going to have to come from the federal government because when the state of Utah tried to do it, which to their credit, they really did. I mean, we all remember seeing Joseph Gordon Levitt up there testifying. The feds basically killed the attempt and said, no, we want this to be to come from the federal government. So it seems like in Congress, this is definitely going to be something that's on your plate. I hear you saying the way that you will hold these big tech companies that want to build these giant data centers accountable is, one, pushing for renewable energy and two, regulating AI. Is that right? And if so, like, what kinds of regulations would you like to see? Yeah, look, I think they need to be accountable for the tools that they put forward. So, look, we need to protect our kids. We need to protect our data privacy. Look, you know, there's so many things where Congress. does need to step in and put guardrails on this technology to make sure we're protecting every individual and especially our most vulnerable, our kids. So there is a strong role. And not only, and I think we sometimes conflate AI with the infrastructure that empowers AI, but look, I think with the infrastructure, it needs to be renewable. With the technology itself, we need to protect every American citizen and our privacy and we need to protect against misinformation and other things that can be powered by AI. But let's invest in research. Let's harness this tool. If it is the reality of the future, let's harness it to cure diseases and improve quality of life and to solve problems that have plagued humanity for millennia. I think that's very optimistic. You have a pretty optimistic take about about AI. From where does this come? Like, there are young people in your house. Do they use AI in a way that has made you feel optimistic about it? Yeah. Look, my kids do use AI. And we talk to them about it. And we say, like, you know, AI can solve your math problem. But at the end of the day, like, you got to learn the math, right? And if you're not going through the hard work of making sure you know how to do it. then you're cheating yourself and you're hurting yourself. So we as parents do have conversations with our kids about how do you use AI responsibly and what are the consequences of using it irresponsibly? And I think that is an important role of our education system to make sure that kids understand how to use this technology and how to recognize when they're being used by the technology.

Ben McAdams, Democratic nominee for Utah's first congressional district. If you win the general election, which you are almost certainly going to do, this will be your second time representing Utah in Congress. It's been six years. A lot can happen in six years. A lot has happened in the past six years. I'm curious in what ways Congressman McAdams 2.0 will be or feel different from 1.0 for folks in your district. Yeah, well, the first thing I would say is times have changed. You know, Donald Trump is now an authoritarian who is actively dismantling our democracy. And these times require somebody who's going to stand up with the courage to do what's right. I've looked that circumstance in the eye before when I voted to impeach knowing it would cost me my election. So I have no hesitation about going into the fray and standing up. to the abuses, the corruption, and the chaos that he's causing, because we need Congress to be an independent voice, to be a check on his power. We need a Congress that can also bring solutions to the challenges that people are facing. And then the last thing I would say is, look, the job title is representative. I think that is also the job description, is to represent a district. When I was elected in 2018, I wasn't elected to represent the opinions of Ben McAdams. I was elected to represent the opinions of a district. And sometimes that means listening to the district and understanding what their priorities are. Sometimes, as in the case of impeachment, it means that I looked at the evidence and I came to a conclusion that I felt was so clear. And it's going back to my district as I did. and holding town hall meetings and telling them why I've decided to go in a direction that they don't approve of. For any representative, there should be a healthy back and forth between what does the district want me to do, what do I feel is the right thing to do, and mediating that consensus. This is a different district, right? And so the same job of representing this district. Yeah, I'm curious if there's something you think this district will want that Ben McAdams doesn't, or vice versa. Well, I think that's the process of holding town hall meetings, listening to the district. The district, you know, we'm coming out of this primary with a strong mandate. We'll go into the general election, also carrying my message to the voters, but also listening to them. And, you know, in any issue, there's going to, the district's going to have 800,000 people that are going to be 800,000 opinions about what I should do. I will do what I've done before, and that is be open, accessible. out there listening to people and trying to always understand, you know, what are the priorities of many people in this district? And then I'll study the legislation, the policy, the ideas, and working to bring forward solutions that they matter. Something we often say on this show is how much better our politics would be if our elected officials were willing to admit when they were wrong? It feels like sometimes they want to do everything but that. What's one thing that you've been wrong about? before? I'll tell you, yeah, from my first term, I regret a vote that I took on the pro act. This was a bill that supported labor unions. At the time, look, any legislation is complicated. That legislation, and I had this conversation with labor unions at the time, had a prohibition on, basically prohibition on gig workers. It said that, you know, Uber or other gig economy type workers, you would have to be an employee of Uber rather than, you know,

just doing that. And I think that is something that needs more thought to actually finesse and figure out what's the right approach there. My kids now drive Uber Eats. And it's really convenient. They don't want to be an employee of Uber Eats. They want to be able to pick it up on the weekend sometimes and sometimes not. They really like that kind of that side hustle that they have. So I said, look, I think this needs more work. I represent the Silicon Slopes area of Utah County that has a strong tech sector. I think this aspect of the legislation. needs more work. So I voted against the bill. I said, look, I'm certainly a supporter of organized labor. I think this legislation needs more work. I regret that because I think what happened, we thought at the time, you know, we were optimistic that Democrats would take the Senate. We would elect a Democratic president. We could fine-tune this legislation and get it across the finish line. Well, I lost my election and we didn't have a chance to pass that bill. You know, you can always, with any legislation, say, you know, either yes, but it needs more work or no. and it needs more work. I wish I'd been on the side of yes, and it needs more work. On that note, I think one of the most... landmark things that's happened in a long time happened last week, and that's Congress agreeing to the bipartisan 21st century Road to Housing Act. I don't think that anyone expected under this president and with this Congress that we would see such landmark housing affordability legislation. There's a lot in there. I know that housing is something that you have worked a lot on since you were in Congress. The main idea is to boost housing supply to lower demand and also costs. There's a little bit in there about whether or not private equity can be buying up housing, et cetera. You are on a housing crisis task force. So I'm curious, like if you were in the room for debating that bill, what would you have added? What would you have liked to have seen? Oh, I have a lot. I'm really happy to see the bill passed. Super disappointed to see Donald Trump using the American people and they're suffering with housing prices as a hostage. in a negotiation to pass the Save Act that will allow him to rig elections, that's immoral. But I have, as you mentioned, done a lot of work on housing reform. And I've actually published some pieces that I would love to see included in legislation. My idea has been to create more urban, walkable environments by developing housing on government-owned land as near transit. And I published a piece with the Brookings Institution. You can find it if you just Google McAdams and Brookings. I have a couple of pieces that we've published there, but I think there's an opportunity to, through urban infill, to build condos and apartments that are in existing, vibrant neighborhoods already, and for the federal government to have a role. So I laid that out in this paper that I published, and we have to actually turned it into legislation called the Build Hubs Act that is working its way through Congress right now. I'd love to see that pass. Cool. You were the mayor of Salt Lake County. I'm sure you're following that the county is going to be moving out of their building on State Street and 21st South. Do you think there's a world where that becomes housing?

I think absolutely. There's an opportunity now that area since when that facility was built, it was built as a like suburban drive-up facility. Now you've got the S-line that's a block away. You've got great bus access right there. You've got Salt Lake Community College. That should be built, rebuilt as a, and I think redeveloped as an urban hub, a walk and a parcel that's big, I think it's 17 acres. A parcel that big can rebuild as a. really a node of new urbanism that benefits from the incredible transit access there so i hope that the county does do that and envisions a way that it can be done to add to the vibrancy of and you know and spark a redevelopment of a really cool neighborhood in salt lake city Yeah. Okay. Well, before I let you go, I'm just curious how you're spending your time between now and the general election in November because you're going to be up against a Republican, also a libertarian candidate. You have very, very good odds of your race being called similarly to how it was called last Tuesday. How are you thinking about this in-between time? What are you prioritizing? Well, I don't want you to jinx me. Sorry. Okay. Between now and when you lose to a libertarian. Okay. I am a Democrat in Utah. We are going to take nothing for granted. I do think that I think candidates have... underestimated this district in a way and really oversimplified the voters. This district, if you look at the voter registration, this district is 25% Democrat. It is 35% Republican, and the rest are unaffiliated or other parties. So I'm going to do what I did in the primary, and that is take my message directly the voters. We're going to be out knocking doors. We're going to be at parades, at street festivals, and we're going to be calling voters, and we're going to be reaching out to get our message directly to them and let them. know that, look, I'm not taking them for granted. I'm not saying they're a statistic and they're going to, they have no choice but to vote for me. I'm going to be out there earning their vote. But I also think it's an important right of passage for a candidate to get out there and really get in tune with the district, understand what's on people's minds, spend that time listening to them. And that's how you get away from assuming that they are a statistic and really getting to know the district, the idiosyncrasies of the diverse and vibrant. populations that are across Salt Lake County. I mean, you're going to be at the top of the ticket. You are a well-resourced campaign. Are there Democrats down ballot from you that you're looking to support who are going to be in tight races this November? Yep, absolutely. We've already begun those discussions. Any in particular that you've got your eye on that you think could be transformational? Yeah, well, I don't want to say that right now because I don't want to tip our hand to anybody, but we are looking at, you know, especially county council races and state legislative races where, you know, some shoe leather, some getting out and talking to voters, some volunteers. This campaign, I hope we'll have a lot of volunteer support. We'd love to have volunteers come and help us. But we're going to like check.

multiple boxes at the same time. So, you know, if somebody's volunteering for my campaign, we're going to be focusing those resources where we can lift down-ballot candidates. Ben McAdams, Democratic nominee for Utah's first congressional district. Congratulations on your win, and thank you for your time. Thanks, Halley. That is all for us today here on CityGas Salt Lake. We will be back tomorrow morning with more from around town. Take care.